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View Full Version : PK/rochi's new placements in duel tier list



Knight_Raime
05-04-2018, 05:04 PM
Currently speaking orochi is c tier due to a lack of tools and pk is the best hero in the game due to her over all safe play and broken damage profile. But with both of these heros getting reworked I think both will move out of their current tiers. For frame of reference current S tier is: pk, zerk, conq, and gladiator.
A tier is: kensei, highlander, shinobi, shaman, and warlord.

Post season 6 changes (from what we know so far) I believe PK will drop to High A tier. She's still safer than warlord and has more offense/better at shutting down offense compared to warlord. She's safer than shaman. Has an offense where shinobi does not. Her new cancels will basically keep highlander from being able to do anything with offensive form in close range. and her cancels still probably beat kensei. As for her match ups vs S tier heros go I think they stay pretty much the same. Except maybe slightly worse against berzerker now.

Her dropping to A tier is because her overall nerf to damage which really hurts her max punishes. and back dodge was nerfed, and now her side dodge recoveries are 600ms instead of 500ms. So she got less safe. And lost damage. But because of her speed and her option select zone still being as strong as they were pre season 6 she remains pretty up there.

Orochi will sky rocket to A tier easily. Riptide looks fast enough to punish conq's bash on reaction. His speed is just going to ruin anything gladiator will attempt to do. Unsure with zerk. it will depend if orochi can stay playing a range game of dip in and out with storm rush and riptide. Mind you aside from glad none of the match ups will be in his favor. But they won't be bad match ups. Orochi versus current A tier heros..More offense than warlord, more flex than warlord. Not as good defensively though. Not like that matters too much. Potentially safer than shaman. But with less mix ups than shaman. Has an offense unlike shinobi. Not as safe as shinobi. Isn't as good at cracking turtles like highlander. Doesn't have comparable damage to highlander. Has less mix up options compared to kensei.

I have no doubt that he's better than warlord as a character and match ups vs S tier heros. I don't know if his new damage profile is good enough to place him above shaman. Because while shaman lacks good damage outside of bite she has more options to threaten with. Though all her options have hard punishes. So I guess it would depend who you could punish harder. shaman or orochi. Since rochi kind of relies on riptide for his S tier match ups and that's now a light...it could go either way.

Kensei has pommel which forces turtles to do something. Rochi lacks that kind of option. And in a similar vein highlanders OF ignores defense pretty much entirely. again something rochi doesn't have. So I would say (especially if pk goes into A tier) that warlord is knocked out of A tier into B tier. and rochi is now bottom A. with pk being top A.

I'm much more confident with my placement of pk. But orochi may be able to go up 1 or 2 places in A tier. either way A tier seems to have expanded. S tier shrunk. (which is a good thing.)

Specialkha
05-04-2018, 05:13 PM
Nothing personal, but cool story, bro. Those changes are not even up. I do wonder really if we need a tier list currently, as some hero are clearly lackluster compare to some others, meaning we have basically no balance overall. We should wait for all reworks to be done with (wchich will be done in 9 months or so looking at the speed how Ubi works).

EvoX.
05-04-2018, 06:23 PM
You know, disagreeing with me about how PK got a nerf rather than a buff and then making a thread about how she'll drop down to A-tier from S is pretty scummy.

Knight_Raime
05-04-2018, 07:25 PM
Nothing personal, but cool story, bro. Those changes are not even up. I do wonder really if we need a tier list currently, as some hero are clearly lackluster compare to some others, meaning we have basically no balance overall. We should wait for all reworks to be done with (wchich will be done in 9 months or so looking at the speed how Ubi works).

Tier lists are always important if you circle within a competitive community. Which I do. and perhaps you're not into meta talk. So this thread wouldn't be for you.

Knight_Raime
05-04-2018, 07:37 PM
Personally, I like the new Stormrush, feels very agile and offers three slightly altered outcomes, though unsure what they meant by the top Stormrush being undodgeable.

I don't dig his new Riptide. I'll wager it was made like that in the sole effort to reduce recovery time; but, seeing as very fast recovery time along with high (heavy) damage would be something literally broken, they then turned it into a light. Which:

1) Removes one major satisfactory use of landing the Riptide (a counter that can execute)
2) Encourages further spamming of the move, which will lead to complaints more than the new Stormrush will.

They could have simply allowed Riptide to be held a little and be able to cancel out of it, or maybe even cancel into Stormrush.

Orochi is still in no way comparable to Kensei, in all of mind games, range, and damage-dealing. For the most part they seem to want Stormrush to be an aggressive hit, not something you use for mixups. Hence the removal of softfeint into GB.

In-between the Zerk and Orochi reworks, I think these two negate each other, while also reworked in such ways to have an ability to counter incoming stagger, even moreso when versing Aramusha, and be able to land their attacks more. There were no changes to their reflex guards, I had assumed such high aggressive potential would yield a quicker guard decay like Glad, but they didn't touch it.

I also think, towards the end of S6, their winrate chart will also mislead many people. If anything, it will only show that Orochi and PK will be doing somewhat better; but not necessarily "OP". On the basis of the S4 chart I think many people assumed PK as OP and were shocked to see her reworked over Valk, Warden, Shug, etc.

Personally, I think there should be no more than 3 solid tiers across the entire roster. Being S, A and B. But, it's way too early to judge on tiers and tier lists. Let's give it some time. Also tier lists are almost always entirely subjective, so by all means, even if they do pull a S6 winchart data, it will hold some subjectivity; nothing is finite, but I do think normalizing tiers to at most three would be better overall.


undodgable means you can't dodge away from it. it has enhanced tracking to catch you. Both rochi's dodge attacks and zerkers dodge attacks have these. However back dash was nerfed. so unless the top storm rush has good side tracking it being undodgable is kinda useless imo.

I think it was changed for several reasons. The most prominent one is they want it as a cover for storm rush. Because if storm rush was buffed to what it is now and then riptide was left alone people would just react off of his back dash defeating the purpose of all of it's other changes. But a sped up riptide means people have to actually react to the move itself and not the back dodge. Which is a very good change. I highly doubt it will be "spammed" because it's a light parry reward for parrying it.

I made the comparisons strictly for match up purposes to try and place the reworks among the tiers. as match ups vs the 2 best tiers is a big part of placement. Kensei is better at cracking defensive players. but doesn't have many options for offensive players. his entire neutral mix up is neutered by light stuffing. Of course the kensei could dash forward to block for a GB but he'd have to know you were going to attack him out of it with a 500ms light. he can't do it on reaction. Beyond that if you have 500ms-600ms side dodge recovery you avoid his neutral mix up entirely. and 500ms heros can punish the soft cancel into light.

Orochi on the other hand is better at punishing overly aggressively players because he's primarily a whiff punisher. But he doesn't have anything that opens up a turtle and can be some what easily baited with passive feinting. I don't understand why people took the S4 data as a holy grail but are already to discount S5 and S6 data. Personally I don't think the win rates should be focused on too hard by themselves.

What would those 3 tiers be defined by?

Knight_Raime
05-04-2018, 07:40 PM
You know, disagreeing with me about how PK got a nerf rather than a buff and then making a thread about how she'll drop down to A-tier from S is pretty scummy.

I don't know why you take things so personally. Also when I said that this was before the confirmation that her side dodge recovery would be nerfed to 600ms. That in combination with her other nerfs and the back dash nerf brings her down a tier because she loses a lot of safety and damage. I still wouldn't say she was "nerfed" as an overall statement because I believe the buffs she received (more usable dagger cancel, can soft feint into GB from finishers, bleed now stacks correctly) are substantial enough to keep her afloat instead of sinking into bad territory.

KotoKuraken
05-04-2018, 10:11 PM
Actually, it would be the second undodgeable move introduced. Orochi's dashing top light is already undodgeable, so this new dash would be the second one added in that can't be dodged

KotoKuraken
05-04-2018, 10:27 PM
Ah, thanks for the reminder on that one. Never really actively tried to dodge that one either. I always either parry, CC (Warden) or block. Even if it were dodgeable, dodging it wouldn't be very effective because dodge recovery would either match or exceed Orochi's recovery on whiff. Effectively greatly reducing / negating a punish window. The only times it could work would be something like Raider stunning tap right out of a side dodge, I'll make sure to test that in arena and report back here. Assuming side dodges work and backdodges don't.

I suppose the same will be true for the top stance Stormrush. Undodgeable on backdodge, but wouldn't be very effective to dodge it anyway if it was dodgeable. Looking forward to test his rework.

well, even with a side dodge, not just with backdodge. The undodgeable property makes it to where even if you dodge to the side, you will still get hit with it

Knight_Raime
05-04-2018, 10:54 PM
So undodgeable means strictly when trying to backdodge it? if you can't even side-dodge it, then you're forced into a parry/block situation; it would be the first ever move introduced against which dodging doesn't work on reaction (Zerk's side dash attack is a lot more telegraphed and much better blocked/parried than dodged). Judging solely from the reveal footage, the top Stormrush did seem faster than Zerk's side dash attack.

I'm willing to bet they meant strictly backdodge; seeing as the top Stormrush is a forward lunge mostly, with a flip. Backdodge universally became 1100ms with a 800ms cancel, and seeing as the new Stormrush will certainly be faster than 800ms, hence undodgeable backwards. So unless it has Caber Toss tracking, side dodges should be fine; otherwise I don't think this is a fun move to both perform and play against, as the only thing aside from blocking/parrying that works against it is dodge attacks.

Fair point on the cover thing. If left as-is it could have possibly led to making the new Stormrush a bit too telegraphed and avoided easier than intended. Though still. I don't see a clear countering advantage to using Riptide, if for no other reason than to have access to another quick attack, a pseudo-zone, if you will. Judging from the stream footage alone, it seemed too fast to even gauge an evasion / distancing maneuver then counter with it, so I dunno. It simply lost the two main aspects of what made Riptide, Riptide (being a distance-maneuver counterattack that can also execute). The new Riptide is like a clutch move for the new Stormrush. Kinda lost its spark somewhat.



Kensei has better odds at taking the upper hand against someone trying to bum-rush him, while also having something against turtles to force a reaction. He's overall pretty decent (bar how far he can slide forward with the zone). Orochi was primarily a counter-attacker; I fear with his rework he's moved into more up-front aggression and less countering, and yeah, he still lacks something against turtles, unless he can bait a GB then go into Stormrush and perform the fastest attack of the three directions; I'm just waiting to see how experienced Orochis will be using him. Watching experienced Orochis on youtube is a very good telltale on what new combos and mixups to expect from Orochi.

As for the S4 data, a lot of people took it as holy grail because it was the first ever time the devs were being transparent with the playerbase and releasing an official chart of sorts. So a lot of these people cemented that data as the absolute foundational technical win-sheet that everyone should refer to when arguing tier lists (which you have noticed happening on this forum as well, even made a thread about it). But you are right; winrates on their own aren't everything. I just hope more people realize this.



Average performance ratio in both 1v1s and 4v4s, how technical is the hero, how extensive is the kit/moveset, how many other heroes constitute a tough matchup for a given hero, etc. As well as winrate based on data from the top 2.5% players, which should be part of the equation only. Seeing as measuring winrates from experienced competitive players is more valid feedback than from the average players. Lastly, on the smallest percentage, how often is the hero picked/chosen.

Sorry for the late reply. was busy sparring with Vaxel.

It's probably only undodgable from back dash. Which is meh cause you can just roll. but it's whatevs. To me riptide looks 500ms. But i'll just have to wait and play against it. Would have to be in order to beat things on reaction which is what seems to be the intended goal behind it. I get the sentiment behind missing it's ability to execute. But I think this new combo of storm rush and riptide games seems interesting. So I wana try it.

I guess i'll just have to disagree with that. I feel like kensei is meh against offensive people who know his kit's weak points. I feel hes much better at handling passive players. I dunno. I feel like the updated riptide makes him able to counter attack some of the more potent mix ups in the game like conqs varied bash and highlanders kick/toss mix up. and SR seems like his new mind game. To me it feels like they updated his counter game a little bit whilst bumping up his "quick decisive hits" with short bursty combos. I could be wrong though. Rochi was my main for the beginning of the game and the beta. So perhaps my perspective/feelings are out of date.

S4's data imo is not good enough to weigh upon simply because season 5 changed how parries work. Which shook up a lot of match ups. And on top of that swapped the game from passive/defensive heros being king to heros who can be safe and offensive to being king. If any match up data should be trusted it should be Season 5's. mm. That seems more like rating how well rounded a hero is. Not really who's a better hero. Just my opinion though. The tier list I subscribe to is more about match ups and how safe a hero can be. But if I had my own tier list it would be based purely on the skill level that I play at. Wouldn't be accurate at all mind you. Just how things are at my level.

Knight_Raime
05-04-2018, 11:06 PM
No problem man, just saw your reply as well.

I guess even side dodge won't do it. I had just tested it in arena against current Orochi's forward dash top light, both side and back dodges didn't work; only if you had your guard on top before dodging, you're still safe and you still block the hit.

And yes. S4 data is outdated now, parry changes came, backdodge changes came, reworks started pouring in, etc. I, too, would wait for the S5 winrate chart and would feel it a more solid round-up than what S4 showed us.

I'd assume then that if your guard is up top you should be able to block the new top storm rush attack after a dodge.
Kinda exited for the chart.

Knight_Raime
05-04-2018, 11:36 PM
Same, would make sense if they drew that directly from his existing Lightning Strike. Which would make the top Stormrush a "Lightning Storm", hah.

Honestly I don't know who to pick up. It's been a real long time since i've given orochi some serious play/attention. But the one thing I wanted from PK I got. I just realized though that both of these reworks came without armor or unblockables. So if both of these turn out to be successful it means at the very least the developers are capable of making hero reworks work without either or having to have both + faster attacks, or some combination of the 3 so long as it makes sense from a design perspective.

Knight_Raime
05-05-2018, 04:48 AM
Indeed. It's one big positive in all this rework hype: not a single sign of unblockable / hyperarmor, which I thoroughly appreciate.

I fear the forum will eventually drown in crynerfs from the first 2 days into the new season as usual, but rest assured, I think Orochi will finally be in a good spot. Unsure about PK because she's still missing something on her deflect. They should at least buff that a bit.

TBH I dunno what they could do to her deflect to make it more enticing. It does decent damage and continues the bleed. Just doesn't feel interesting enough to go for.

Specialkha
05-05-2018, 07:22 AM
Tier lists are always important if you circle within a competitive community. Which I do. and perhaps you're not into meta talk. So this thread wouldn't be for you.

In fact, I was referring that this game is far from being competitive as there is too much cheese and unbalance between characters. When all the characters will be close to each other in power and such, maybe then, we will be able to talk about competition.