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woonks73
03-20-2009, 01:14 AM
I am a newbie to IL2..... I believe this was discussed before in the forum, but i cant dig it out....

My hurricane IIb is getting its butt kicked by Ki-43 Oscar and A6M Zeke in the offline RAF campaign over Malaya. Hurri IIb loses out in every flight performance, acceleration, climb, top speed, roll, turn, dive. Even the firepower sucks. The only consolation is, Oscar and Zeke armour is paper thin. But then, so is Hurri.

Hurri needs get near and personal for the kill (500m spray and pray aint doing much damage, any advice?), saddling up and tailing his six is extremely difficult, Oscar and Zeke will simply outrun and outmaneuver you. Head on is also suicidal, 20mm cannon with shred Hurri to pieces quickly.

Any special tactics/maneuvers to help the poor old hurri?? Except BnZ (hurri doing BnZ? the Lufwaffe guys must be laughing), I am running out of ideas....

Thanks!!!

woonks73
03-20-2009, 01:14 AM
I am a newbie to IL2..... I believe this was discussed before in the forum, but i cant dig it out....

My hurricane IIb is getting its butt kicked by Ki-43 Oscar and A6M Zeke in the offline RAF campaign over Malaya. Hurri IIb loses out in every flight performance, acceleration, climb, top speed, roll, turn, dive. Even the firepower sucks. The only consolation is, Oscar and Zeke armour is paper thin. But then, so is Hurri.

Hurri needs get near and personal for the kill (500m spray and pray aint doing much damage, any advice?), saddling up and tailing his six is extremely difficult, Oscar and Zeke will simply outrun and outmaneuver you. Head on is also suicidal, 20mm cannon with shred Hurri to pieces quickly.

Any special tactics/maneuvers to help the poor old hurri?? Except BnZ (hurri doing BnZ? the Lufwaffe guys must be laughing), I am running out of ideas....

Thanks!!!

K_Freddie
03-20-2009, 01:21 AM
Don't feel so bad, Just read a book on the Japanese Army Air Force.. There were a few guys in the KI-43 taking out B24's with ease and anything else that got it in the way. Hurri's were easy meat for these guys.

In the Hurri you have plenty ammo, do a head on with a long distance longgggg burst (this is the only chance you'll get), barrel roll out of his line of fire and then run like hell.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Chevy350
03-20-2009, 01:22 AM
hurricanes guns are my favorite to use against jap planes. 8 machine guns destroy those paper planes. just aim at the cockpit/engine/fuel tank and just a few hits will take it out. and its easy to hit em too, those guns spread out pretty good.

Romanator21
03-20-2009, 01:28 AM
The Hurricane Mk II is great against the Japanese planes. Those planes are more maneuverable, but you just have to outsmart them. The hurricane is a good tuning fighter, but in relation to the Oscar and Zero, you should use energy tactics. Those planes are fast, but once they start turning, they won't be, so conserve your energy and hit them while they are slow.

Those 12 browning .303 however should set these planes on fire in a jiffy, and are very good at wounding/killing pilots and damaging controls in unarmored planes. Get close and make sure your bullets hit. Those guns put a lot of lead in the air, but never spray with them. Hit the target when they are within your convergence and you will get kills them every time. You should probably not be shooting farther than 300 meters, but every pilot is different, and you will need to find what is best for you.

Go to the QMB and set up a dogfight. Turn on the icons temporarily if you haven't already. Without focusing too much on the numbers find out when you naturally start to shoot. This should be your convergence value. I tried this and I was surprised: I usually fly without icons. I had my convergence set to 300, but really I only start shooting at 150 or less. So now I set convergence to about 200 or so, and more bullets hit the same part of the plane, leading to greater success in dogfights.

Hope this helps http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

ytareh
03-20-2009, 01:50 AM
The AI cheats...it doesnt overheat,black out ,stall...may even have automatic convergence iirc!Even late usa planes have trouble against AI Zeroes ...you will have to be VERY clever and may still get thrashed...

Buzzsaw-
03-20-2009, 01:55 AM
Salute

The Hurricane has one other advantage besides the better durability over the Zero and Oscar.

Up high, over 19,000 ft, (little less than 6000k) it is faster.

The Hurricane best alt for speed is approx. 19,000 ft.

Historically the British pilots over Malaya and later Indonesia, flew the Hurricanes as high as possible.

On the deck is the worst place to fly the Hurricane vs the Zero. The Hurricane is very slow at sea level comparative to most other planes.

Up high you have the speed advantage, plus you can dive away from a Zero if you get in trouble. They cannot follow at high speeds, their wings will come off.

Vanderstok
03-20-2009, 02:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...Hit the target when they are within your convergence and you will get kills them every time. ...

Go to the QMB and set up a dogfight. Turn on the icons temporarily if you haven't already. Without focusing too much on the numbers find out when you naturally start to shoot. This should be your convergence value. I tried this and I was surprised: I usually fly without icons. I had my convergence set to 300, but really I only start shooting at 150 or less...
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is very good advice. I did the exact same thing the other day with an online buddy of mine. We also found out we started shooting at about 150m, but I had my convergence set to 300m (must have thought I was a newbie http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). Setting the convergence to 175 m made a lot of difference for me!
Nice thing about the Hurriebird is that you can easily see where the bullets hit. If you see flashes all over the enemy plane (from left wingtip to right wingtip) then your convergence is wrong or you are firing from too far away...

Romanator21
03-20-2009, 07:11 AM
K-Freddy: I read your post about Ki-43 attacking B-24 and (I will be honest) I was extremely skeptical. I knew the Japanese pilots were greatly skilled, but the two 12.7 vs a B-24 with lots of .50 cals? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
Then I read this:

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/anabuki/anabuki.htm

I thought, damn, this guy is my new hero.
Even if only 1/4 of what he said was true, he deserves loads of respect. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
So, I thought I would have a go at it. I set up 8 B-24s, and 4 p-47 at 5000 m with 4 to 8 ki-43, all average pilots. After two or three attempts and lots of adrenaline (those bomber gunners are nasty) I was able to down a B-24. I was completely stunned. I have so much more respect for this "peashooter" now, and the men who flew it, and that they couldn't hit "refly".
Next time I see this plane online, I will keep my distance. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

jamesblonde1979
03-20-2009, 10:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by woonks73:

My hurricane IIb is getting its butt kicked by Ki-43 Oscar and A6M Zeke

Thanks!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, this is what will happen.

You need to focus on survival, forget about kills because if you fixate on a target in these circumstances then you are as good as dead.

Here's some tips that I have used in similar circumstances.

Fly high! No lower than 5000m

When you do attack, dive on your enemy and dont begin to climb out until he is at least 4 km away.

It's a looooong and boring process but if you are any good at BnZ then you will score eventually, just remember that you MUST NOT attempt to stay on your bandit for a better shot at him, take what you can get and run away.

DKoor
03-20-2009, 12:55 PM
The only real thing that Hurri has vs Japanese is good guns.
But the guns are truth to be told, that good that it almost compensates for the fighters performance shortcomings.

megalopsuche
03-20-2009, 01:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ytareh:
The AI cheats...it doesnt overheat,black out ,stall...may even have automatic convergence iirc!Even late usa planes have trouble against AI Zeroes ...you will have to be VERY clever and may still get thrashed... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The AI has some pretty amazing tricks. My personal favorite is the hard nose-low turn near stall speed, followed by the rocket-like accelerating spiral climb.

The AI is fun to fight for about 3 minutes. If the fight doesn't conclude within that time, it goes into BnZ mode (with the above spiral climb) and does nothing else.

Buzzsaw-
03-20-2009, 01:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Romanator21:
K-Freddy: I read your post about Ki-43 attacking B-24 and (I will be honest) I was extremely skeptical. I knew the Japanese pilots were greatly skilled, but the two 12.7 vs a B-24 with lots of .50 cals? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
Then I read this:

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/anabuki/anabuki.htm

I thought, damn, this guy is my new hero.
Even if only 1/4 of what he said was true, he deserves loads of respect. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
So, I thought I would have a go at it. I set up 8 B-24s, and 4 p-47 at 5000 m with 4 to 8 ki-43, all average pilots. After two or three attempts and lots of adrenaline (those bomber gunners are nasty) I was able to down a B-24. I was completely stunned. I have so much more respect for this "peashooter" now, and the men who flew it, and that they couldn't hit "refly".
Next time I see this plane online, I will keep my distance. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Salute

The claims made by this Japanese pilot have been proven to be false.

Please see this article for the details:

http://www.j-aircraft.com/rese.../anabuki/anabuki.htm (http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/anabuki/anabuki.htm)

The Japanese were notorious for overclaiming to the extent of 5 or 6 to 1 for actual shootdowns, but this guy Anabuki was the worst.

ytareh
03-20-2009, 02:48 PM
Im currently reading an old book called I WAS A KAMIKAZE where the author claims the Japanese took on B29s in Ki27s!!!

Romanator21
03-20-2009, 03:35 PM
Buzzsaw: I had a feeling his story was exaggerated for propaganda purposes, or some other reason. Your article mentions I think, that one possibility is that he would have to justify to authorities why he crash landed his plane. I thought maybe he was still able to get at least one B-24, and exaggerated/fabricated the rest. Even if he did shoot down just one B-24 in a plane like the ki-43, it would have been quite an achievement. I was surprised to find, that even very recently he makes these claims, so I hadn't considered total fabrication. Oh, well.

Sorry for hijacking the thread. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

woonks73
03-20-2009, 10:28 PM
Thanks for the replies. I really learn a lot from you guys http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Found out a very important point today in the struggle against oscar/zeke.

Hurricane IIb vs Ki-43 / A6M match-up is almost identical to F4F Wildcat vs Oscar Zeke. Except that Wildcat is faster than Hurri, outdive both Zeke and Hurri, maneuver better at high speed, built tough with better armour (err.. can we qualify hurri plywood as armour?), and has a longer range firepower (4 x .50cal MG with 500m effective range).

Wow, and u think fighting as Wildcat vs Oscar Zeke is bad.....

In offline scenario, hurri typically fly at altitude 1000m (about 3200feet), the Oscar Zeke are at about altitude 1500m (5000feet). Hurri always start off from a disadvantage position, cant figure out why the scenario is designed in such way. Also, at altitude 1000m, high speed dive is not an option.

Went thru QMB several times with 1 vs 1 Hurri IIb and Oscar, both aces, convergence at 300m, altitude 1000m to simulate scenario (while i stay cozy as a spectator in F4U Corsair). This is what i get from all the QMB. oscar climb 1K above hurri, and dive in. hurri climb up to meet him, head on. Oscar open fire at range 500m, hurri return fire at 300m. Somehow, hurri survives the head on assault with oscar slightly damaged. at merge point, oscar climb up,do an immelman. hurri do a flat turn, doesnt even bother to climb up, and wait for the next head on pass. This is repeated over and over and over again until either one is unable to continue.

So, hurri head on passes with oscar is the way to go? I dont like this at all. staring blank at oscar with him firing first at 500m range sounds suicidal... Hurri 12 x .303cal MG is only effective at range 300m below..

jamesblonde1979
03-20-2009, 10:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by woonks73:

So, hurri head on passes with oscar is the way to go? I dont like this at all. staring blank at oscar with him firing first at 500m range sounds suicidal... Hurri 12 x .303cal MG is only effective at range 300m below.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well the Oscar only has a popgun 2Xmg armament, the Hurri has a 10X0.303 battery to return and remember that in a head on pass you are closing so you can open fire earlier than your convergence settings.

Hog_Driver
03-21-2009, 05:27 AM
Another funny thing about Olegs world, among others that is, Jap pilots respected/feared the high diving speed of the Hurricanes, yes Oscars and well Zekes accelerated very fast between 150 mph and 250 mph but then they "stopped" but not here. Nor could they roll or pull out very well at faster speeds, which is not very well modeled here either.
US navy F4F pilots escorting goods over the Atlantic was amazed over the fast roll rate of the Hurri, when they got the chance to test it, even at high speeds over the Wildcat ! Not modeled here either. Talking about Zekes in general...it's funny that it is way easier to kill 109E's and 109F's in a Tomahawk than to kill a Zeke, weird.
Guess there wouldn't be a Pacific fighters if Zekes, Vals and Bettys were modeled right. No PF no mighty bucks !!

HD

Sillius_Sodus
03-21-2009, 09:48 AM
In time the Japanese aircraft will become easier to deal with, even with their AI quirks. Keep at it Woonks, you won't regret it.

You will be assimilated though...resistance to this game is futile http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

DKoor
03-21-2009, 09:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by woonks73:
Thanks for the replies. I really learn a lot from you guys http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Found out a very important point today in the struggle against oscar/zeke.

Hurricane IIb vs Ki-43 / A6M match-up is almost identical to F4F Wildcat vs Oscar Zeke. Except that Wildcat is faster than Hurri, outdive both Zeke and Hurri, maneuver better at high speed, built tough with better armour (err.. can we qualify hurri plywood as armour?), and has a longer range firepower (4 x .50cal MG with 500m effective range).

Wow, and u think fighting as Wildcat vs Oscar Zeke is bad.....

In offline scenario, hurri typically fly at altitude 1000m (about 3200feet), the Oscar Zeke are at about altitude 1500m (5000feet). Hurri always start off from a disadvantage position, cant figure out why the scenario is designed in such way. Also, at altitude 1000m, high speed dive is not an option.

Went thru QMB several times with 1 vs 1 Hurri IIb and Oscar, both aces, convergence at 300m, altitude 1000m to simulate scenario (while i stay cozy as a spectator in F4U Corsair). This is what i get from all the QMB. oscar climb 1K above hurri, and dive in. hurri climb up to meet him, head on. Oscar open fire at range 500m, hurri return fire at 300m. Somehow, hurri survives the head on assault with oscar slightly damaged. at merge point, oscar climb up,do an immelman. hurri do a flat turn, doesnt even bother to climb up, and wait for the next head on pass. This is repeated over and over and over again until either one is unable to continue.

So, hurri head on passes with oscar is the way to go? I dont like this at all. staring blank at oscar with him firing first at 500m range sounds suicidal... Hurri 12 x .303cal MG is only effective at range 300m below.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You may start to fire on him from 1km away.
Hurri's guns are powerful vs them. Make sure that you have at least 350m gun convergence (if you go for head on that is), you need to set them on fire not to cut of pieces of their wings, fuselages etc.
If you start to fire on 500m it's already too late... it's always a better idea to fire a bit earlier for two reasons, one is correcting your aim and the other - scaring the Japanese pilot (in case of online play).

DKoor
03-21-2009, 10:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hog_Driver:
Another funny thing about Olegs world, among others that is, Jap pilots respected/feared the high diving speed of the Hurricanes, yes Oscars and well Zekes accelerated very fast between 150 mph and 250 mph but then they "stopped" but not here. Nor could they roll or pull out very well at faster speeds, which is not very well modeled here either.
US navy F4F pilots escorting goods over the Atlantic was amazed over the fast roll rate of the Hurri, when they got the chance to test it, even at high speeds over the Wildcat ! Not modeled here either. Talking about Zekes in general...it's funny that it is way easier to kill 109E's and 109F's in a Tomahawk than to kill a Zeke, weird.
Guess there wouldn't be a Pacific fighters if Zekes, Vals and Bettys were modeled right. No PF no mighty bucks !!

HD </div></BLOCKQUOTE>They are modeled fairly in my opinion, however, I suspect the reason beneath your conclusion may be - Ai.
If you look at this track;
http://www.esnips.com/doc/3f0e...57b72c96/AiCheatPack (http://www.esnips.com/doc/3f0ec0b2-deff-4a34-aec3-567c57b72c96/AiCheatPack)
you will see why I say that.
On top of that add the fact that more maneuverable Ai (such is Spitfire for example), is generally tougher to bring down than less agile fighters. One of the reason behind that is because historical BnZ tactic works very poorly vs Ai in general.
Situation in IL-2 was almost always in favor of agile fighters, less now than before.

LEBillfish
03-21-2009, 01:55 PM
Well, as a A6M, Ki-43 & 61 pilot online I can tell you I disagree with what many are saying here....

Seems as though many are hoping for that magic bullet to strike the tanks just right and light the enemy up...Hence all the long range shots failing to remember shotgun blasts caused by either long range bouncing around from turbulance, or simply trying to hit a distant dot is more then likely going to alert them, tick them off and make them turn on you....Kinda like throwing pebbles at a Tiger.

The Ki-43 is no slouch compared to a Hurricane. It can out climb it, out turn it, possibly out run it, out aim it if a Ki-43-I (that scope is deadly) and if using 12.7 guns hit harder. The A6M is only worse.

You have only 2 advantages....One being you have a LOT of firepower, yet you must get in close....Try 150m or less on your convergence, 100 even better and a good hit will make 20mm's seem wimpy. The other is your dive....Use it. Dive from on high and make your attcks, and if in trouble dive away hard, once they're at high speed the Zero will have a lot of trouble pulling out and turning, the Ki-43 not as much yet you CAN black out AI.

Ki-43 being the slower and lighter armed of the two REAL LIFE have killed P47's, Spitfires, P-38's, Hellcats, and a whole host of heavy and medium bombers Ki-43 pilots well documented as to their skills at staying in blind spots like prop shadows then turning in and raking the enemy. In kind they turn so well "groups" of P-38's, and P47's have been known to simply empty their guns trying to hit the evading single plane so many times......Even read of 5 P38's that were after a single Ki-43, he evading every time and realizing they were running low on ammo after roughly a half hour of this taking turns, gave up and ran for home.

You're in a Hurricane, an aircraft the Ki-43 was built to outclass.....Use your 2 advantages, or you will lose.

K2

Hog_Driver
03-22-2009, 02:59 PM
Hey LEBillfish, apparently more magic bullets in a P-40B against 109's than against Val's, Betty's, Oscars and Zeros then.

The Oscar was build to outclass western fighters allright, it failed though. And don't use Singapore nor Rangoon or even early Burma to prove it to be superior, no......outclassing numbers made it superior. Lousy English command line, tactics and lag of spares of the allies made the Oscar win out there, if you believe anything else you'd even believe Anabuki's tales LOL.
When met by almost, well 2:1 in favour of Oscars,so called equal numbers by Hurris and the AVG's Hawks they burned and they burned bad.

Next thing we'll see is probably a KZ_Anabuki and the circle will be full and Goebbles happy in his grave.

HD

LEBillfish
03-22-2009, 07:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hog_Driver:
Hey LEBillfish, apparently more magic bullets in a P-40B .......circle will be full and Goebbles happy in his grave.

HD </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Troll or mis-informed, make a new account to back up the first then second......Tell Neel Kearby in his P47 the Ki-43 was a worthless machine.

Fact of the matter is, aircraft designed and built to outclass today will never forever. More so when Hurricanes were the pemier british aircraft in the pacific, quite frankly the pilots ALSO were not....Just like the germans early on even during 42 the supposed incompetant Japanese pilot had long proven themselves to be experienced veterens.

Performance numbers don't lie, couple that with pilot experience and you'll have your answer.

Or spew on the very banter you associate yourself so well with in your summation line.

K2

jamesblonde1979
03-23-2009, 02:11 AM
I don't know. I've always found the Oscar a mediocre opponent at best, even in the Hurri. It's like fighting a slow 109. I keep my straight line speed up and climb when I can, usually the Oscar has to engage horizontal and I can get a good angle on him.

On the flip side, I am more afraid of the Buffalo in the Oscar than the Hurri, the only thing about Hurri's that worrys me is how many rounds it seems to take to make a dent in him.

Genie-
03-23-2009, 03:03 AM
please don't mix on line fights with offline AI fights..

AI is offline game killer. It is SO badly written. AI doesn't care about anything - no rules apply to it..

Some time ago I was trying to fly Malta campaign in my hurry against cr32s.. After trying all what I could pull out of my sleeve.. in desperation I zoomed down from 5000 meters running away from 5 cr32.. outcome-&gt; they have dived behind me, OUTRUNED me and killed me at some 1000 meters.. while my hurry was shaking of speed.. and then zoomed back up like they were tie fighters. That was it regarding my offline flying attempts....

woonks73
03-27-2009, 10:53 PM
Real life info on hurricane IIb :

Brewster Buffalo vs. Hurricane
[The Air Fighting Development Unit at Northolt filed this report on 5 Nov 1940 after testing a 339B.--DF]

Climb and Dive - The climb to 15,000 feet is better than that of the Hurricane, and the aircraft easily out-dives the Hurricane.

Comparative Speed in Level Flight - [The fighters were flown at the rated heights for the two-speed supercharger on the Brewster's Cyclone engine.] At 6,000 feet the Brewster was approximately 15 m.p.h. faster than the Hurricane; while at 14,700 feet the speeds were practically identical. [If similarly equipped,] the Brewster's speed at 6,000 feet would be approximately the same as the Hurricane, whereas at 14,700 feet it would be approximately 12 miles slower.

Maneuverability - In the air the Brewster Fighter is very maneuverable, its aileron and elevator controls being positive and lighter than the Hurricane or Spitfire at all speeds. The rudder is definitively heavy, but only a little movement is required for full control. It can easily turn inside the Hurricane.

In short, even the 'flying coffin' Buffalo B339e can outturn, outdive, outclimb the poor hurricane..

And Hurricane II is supposely the air superiority fighter in the Malayan campaign.