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View Full Version : Next Reworks: Orochi, PK and Valk



Illyrian_King
04-12-2018, 11:44 PM
According to the last Dev Stream these 3 Heroes seem to get reworked.


Valk: https://youtu.be/vOmYEDJcWDA?t=2413 (terrible terrrible ... he just said said, he likes his Valk :rolleyes: maybe she is gonna be re****** (don't forget we are talking about balance))

Orochi and PK: https://youtu.be/vOmYEDJcWDA?t=3200

And here just PK again: https://youtu.be/vOmYEDJcWDA?t=3251


Get the hints guys :rolleyes:

Dane520123
04-13-2018, 12:36 AM
I was hoping for orochi and warden but atleast orochi is there.

Illyrian_King
04-13-2018, 12:44 AM
In my eyes there is no Hero more shallow then Warden, but maybe they want to suprise us ^^

HazelrahFirefly
04-13-2018, 12:53 AM
Valkyrie inarguably needs a rework. She's downright awful compared to every hero. She was my second main but I just cant bear the struggle as of S5.

PK was my main, but after playing Shaman a bunch she is now boring. She needs a rework not because she's bad, but because she is lacking in interesting things to do.

Warden really should get a rework too...

I am so, so, so very nervous about what they will do to the Orochi. I love him the way he is, even one a tourney with him. I'm terrified they are going to change him so that I don't want to play him anymore.

Cliff_001
04-13-2018, 02:43 AM
Its not confirmed officially yet, these characters could just be getting nobushi and highlander buffs/nerfs.

Alustar.
04-13-2018, 03:47 AM
All three need a rework on par with conquerer and Kensei, regardless of where they stand in the arbitrary tier roster developed by (bias) players. Inarguably, the fact is they have only a select few moves in their kits that make them viable.

As a player who ran PK to rep 17 the reason I left her for shaman was simple: shaman had a more fleshed out kit, with more options and access to crowd control and varied moves that aren't predictable or completely reliant on cheese tactics.
How they handle this will pretty much make or break me on whether or not I stick with for honor at all. Because, let's face it, soul calibur is dropping soon, and I have much more faith in Namco and their knowledge on how fighting games function. While it would be sad not to have 4v4 battles, I am just as content playing their game and Tera since its on PS4 now if I really need a PvP fix.

Ubisoft, you have been warned.

Playing_Mantis
04-13-2018, 05:39 AM
no they don't want to surprise us..u kidding me? on balance they don't do that. warden I'm sure will not get a rework for at least 2 seasons. the orochi and valk are much worse currently. warden is just in the middle. why rework heroes that are ok. just rework the heroes that basically are useless. i think talk and orochi are the only 2 left. sure warden is not good..but he's just not so bad that he needs rework right away.

Knight_Raime
04-13-2018, 07:23 AM
Surprised valk is even on the board. She's got a small fanbase. I figured rochi would be up there.
90% sure whatever they do with pk will turn out to be bad. Any nerf will likely not be what needed nerfing and any buff will just make her more hated.
since her real one and only issue is her zone option select. I don't see them nerfing that.

BarbeQMichael
04-13-2018, 08:08 AM
Surprised valk is even on the board. She's got a small fanbase. I figured rochi would be up there.
90% sure whatever they do with pk will turn out to be bad. Any nerf will likely not be what needed nerfing and any buff will just make her more hated.
since her real one and only issue is her zone option select. I don't see them nerfing that.

Devs said before that they want to improve the dagger usage so there is the buff, but otherwise need to tone her powerlevel down so my guess is that heavies drop from 50dmg to around 30 and zone gets balanced (cant feint after first strike), possibly balancging light damage too considering how fast they are.

Charmzzz
04-13-2018, 08:55 AM
Devs said before that they want to improve the dagger usage so there is the buff, but otherwise need to tone her powerlevel down so my guess is that heavies drop from 50dmg to around 30 and zone gets balanced (cant feint after first strike), possibly balancging light damage too considering how fast they are.

Her Heavies rarely hit anyone in the first place. And I bet they won't change the damage from 50 (with bleed followup) to 30. That would be a raw heavy with 15 Damage @800ms, you cannot be serious about this idea. ^^

Her "powerlevel" comes from Zone option select, backdash distance and that's pretty much it. Her Light's are outdamaged and on par speedwise with ALOT of other Light chains or confirmed double-hits in the current roster. As backdash distance will get nerfed globally I bet PK will receive some buffs because that will be a huge nerf to her.

Time will tell. Btw Illyrian_King, did you deny my friendrequest? We have a Duel open, you on Glad, me on Warden / PK / Glad (you can decide).

BarbeQMichael
04-13-2018, 09:22 AM
Her Heavies rarely hit anyone in the first place. And I bet they won't change the damage from 50 (with bleed followup) to 30. That would be a raw heavy with 15 Damage @800ms, you cannot be serious about this idea. ^^

Her "powerlevel" comes from Zone option select, backdash distance and that's pretty much it. Her Light's are outdamaged and on par speedwise with ALOT of other Light chains or confirmed double-hits in the current roster. As backdash distance will get nerfed globally I bet PK will receive some buffs because that will be a huge nerf to her.
.

Well her heavies are faster than the average, granted that heavies are overally harder to land than lights but pk will land more heavies due to her speed. The 49dmg is just far too much for 800ms attack so either the initial heavy will take some nerf or the bleed, you can't be serious that it is ok for 800ms to deal 49dmg? :D

Zone and dodges are simply broken so they are going to get some looking, and well lights are pretty damn good with 33dmg as the 2nd is guaranteed unless you try to hit from the same side. 17dmg for initial 500ms is too much so I guess it would be either 15 or 10 with the followup being 5-10 so that she would still hit for 20 dmg which is much over average, especially for that speed.

Charmzzz
04-13-2018, 09:41 AM
Well her heavies are faster than the average, granted that heavies are overally harder to land than lights but pk will land more heavies due to her speed. The 49dmg is just far too much for 800ms attack so either the initial heavy will take some nerf or the bleed, you can't be serious that it is ok for 800ms to deal 49dmg? :D

Zone and dodges are simply broken so they are going to get some looking, and well lights are pretty damn good with 33dmg as the 2nd is guaranteed unless you try to hit from the same side. 17dmg for initial 500ms is too much so I guess it would be either 15 or 10 with the followup being 5-10 so that she would still hit for 20 dmg which is much over average, especially for that speed.

So much nonsense...

Characters with 800ms (or 700/600ms) Heavy Attacks: all except Shugoki, Raider and Kensei! Every other Character has the same or better speed on Heavies. So much for "faster Heavies"...

Basic PK Heavy Damage is 33 (30 if chained) - many many other Characters have more than that. Bleed followup is 1+15 bleed. And that's her only hard hitting move btw... I am Ok with toning down the followup damage a bit, maybe to 1+10 bleed.

PK Light-Light is NOT 33 Damage, it is 32. And it is NOT "guaranteed" in any way. It is a 400ms second Light, e.g. Zerker can start with a Heavy feint into a 400ms Light in the first place dealing 15 damage and continue with 400ms Light dealing the same damage.

Real "guaranteed" double-light hits deal: 24 / 22 / 24 / 15 Damage combined. So, if you want to change the Damage - make it a guaranteed double-hit for over 20 Damage. Any other change would just be another huge nerf (and PK received the most nerfs over all classes and got totally borked when they removed Timesnap).

And where the fck is 500ms too fast for 17 Damage? Warlord has the same attack, all double-hits are the same speed and deal more damage guaranteed, Kensei deals a whooping 20 damage @500ms with a Light...

Siegfried-Z
04-13-2018, 10:20 AM
Surprised valk is even on the board. She's got a small fanbase..

Man the question then is why her fanbase is so weak ? Beacause she need this rework !

I was sreaming about the Valk rework and i am so excited about this news :))

I believe it would be like that :

1/ Valk Gonna get a real big rewrok such as Kensei or Conq
2/ Orochi gonna get a rework as Zerk one just keeping the same gameplay but giving him more openers
3/ PK gonna get some adjusments as Nobushi i think

Anyway crazy news :))

BarbeQMichael
04-13-2018, 10:26 AM
So much nonsense...

Characters with 800ms (or 700/600ms) Heavy Attacks: all except Shugoki, Raider and Kensei! Every other Character has the same or better speed on Heavies. So much for "faster Heavies"...

Basic PK Heavy Damage is 33 (30 if chained) - many many other Characters have more than that. Bleed followup is 1+15 bleed. And that's her only hard hitting move btw... I am Ok with toning down the followup damage a bit, maybe to 1+10 bleed.

PK Light-Light is NOT 33 Damage, it is 32. And it is NOT "guaranteed" in any way. It is a 400ms second Light, e.g. Zerker can start with a Heavy feint into a 400ms Light in the first place dealing 15 damage and continue with 400ms Light dealing the same damage.

Real "guaranteed" double-light hits deal: 24 / 22 / 24 / 15 Damage combined. So, if you want to change the Damage - make it a guaranteed double-hit for over 20 Damage. Any other change would just be another huge nerf (and PK received the most nerfs over all classes and got totally borked when they removed Timesnap).

And where the fck is 500ms too fast for 17 Damage? Warlord has the same attack, all double-hits are the same speed and deal more damage guaranteed, Kensei deals a whooping 20 damage @500ms with a Light...

Heroes with faster than 800ms neutral heavies:
Orochi, gladiator, aramusha, cent, conq. The rest are equal or slower. Do the maths and see the average neutral heavy speed, please see this :https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc

PK has heavy attack damage of 33+1+15 bleed according to the previous doc, so 49 in hitpoint damage.

Yes there is difference between guaranteed and practically guaranteed double hits, where abominations like shinobi's or orochi's 24/22dmg @ 500ms are always guaranteed, but pk has only practically guaranteed 32 (sorry for the typo earlier) as the followup is 400ms (remember 100ms guardchange + hitstun), only 100ms slower than shaman's followup.

And yeah, warlord's top light does 17dmg but it is 600ms, his 500ms attacks deal 13dmg. Kensei is understandable though with the huge sword of his, don't know why heroes like lawdaddy, HL or raider can't do more than puny 15dmg @ 600ms, 25-30 would be much better (still less or equal dpm than with those 24dmg lights)

Charmzzz
04-13-2018, 10:43 AM
Heroes with faster than 800ms neutral heavies:
Orochi, gladiator, aramusha, cent, conq. The rest are equal or slower. Do the maths and see the average neutral heavy speed, please see this :https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc

PK has heavy attack damage of 33+1+15 bleed according to the previous doc, so 49 in hitpoint damage.

Yes there is difference between guaranteed and practically guaranteed double hits, where abominations like shinobi's or orochi's 24/22dmg @ 500ms are always guaranteed, but pk has only practically guaranteed 32 (sorry for the typo earlier) as the followup is 400ms (remember 100ms guardchange + hitstun), only 100ms slower than shaman's followup.

And yeah, warlord's top light does 17dmg but it is 600ms, his 500ms attacks deal 13dmg. Kensei is understandable though with the huge sword of his, don't know why heroes like lawdaddy, HL or raider can't do more than puny 15dmg @ 600ms, 25-30 would be much better (still less or equal dpm than with those 24dmg lights)

You said PK is a Character with "faster heavies". Now you try to make your argument work by telling me that there are 5 Characters with faster Heavies than her and the rest is equal or slower? There are ONLY 3 slower than her. Man, you are pathetic sometimes... Your argument her having faster heavies is pointed out invalid, accept it.

I never denied that it is 49 Damage if it is from neutral. If it is chained - 46 Damage. And all this only IF you followup with the bleed which ends your chain.

"Practically guaranteed": please, stop it. I can block 400ms Lights consistently. Not 100%, but FAR away from getting a "practically guaranteed" hit. It is NOT guaranteed in any way. Stop putting out more invalid arguments, please.

True, made a mistake on Warlord. Still, PK does not have anything left other than Zone and Light atm because they broke her options months ago. I'm fine with putting down her first Light to 15 Damage, won't do alot anyway.

BarbeQMichael
04-13-2018, 10:58 AM
You said PK is a Character with "faster heavies". Now you try to make your argument work by telling me that there are 5 Characters with faster Heavies than her and the rest is equal or slower? There are ONLY 3 slower than her. Man, you are pathetic sometimes... Your argument her having faster heavies is pointed out invalid, accept it.

I never denied that it is 49 Damage if it is from neutral. If it is chained - 46 Damage. And all this only IF you followup with the bleed which ends your chain.

"Practically guaranteed": please, stop it. I can block 400ms Lights consistently. Not 100%, but FAR away from getting a "practically guaranteed" hit. It is NOT guaranteed in any way. Stop putting out more invalid arguments, please.

True, made a mistake on Warlord. Still, PK does not have anything left other than Zone and Light atm because they broke her options months ago. I'm fine with putting down her first Light to 15 Damage, won't do alot anyway.

I am telling that pk has faster than average heavy attack speed from neutral, and that is a simple fact. Your argument her having slow heavies is invalid, accept it.

49 damage from neutral, 46 from combo, it still is hardest hitting normal heavy in game (excluding special cases like shugoki's charged 1600ms heavies), and all that for 800ms. You can't say that it is only if you followup with bleed, because why wouldn't you? If you don't followup, its your fault. I'ts like saying raider gets only 15dmg out of gb if he chooses not to carry to wall for 30dmg or zone for 28dmg.

Illyrian_King
04-13-2018, 11:16 AM
Her Heavies rarely hit anyone in the first place. And I bet they won't change the damage from 50 (with bleed followup) to 30. That would be a raw heavy with 15 Damage @800ms, you cannot be serious about this idea. ^^

Her "powerlevel" comes from Zone option select, backdash distance and that's pretty much it. Her Light's are outdamaged and on par speedwise with ALOT of other Light chains or confirmed double-hits in the current roster. As backdash distance will get nerfed globally I bet PK will receive some buffs because that will be a huge nerf to her.

Time will tell. Btw Illyrian_King, did you deny my friendrequest? We have a Duel open, you on Glad, me on Warden / PK / Glad (you can decide).

I accepted it and even wrote you 2 messages dude.

Look at Uplay Launcher.

Charmzzz
04-13-2018, 11:52 AM
I am telling that pk has faster than average heavy attack speed from neutral, and that is a simple fact. Your argument her having slow heavies is invalid, accept it.

49 damage from neutral, 46 from combo, it still is hardest hitting normal heavy in game (excluding special cases like shugoki's charged 1600ms heavies), and all that for 800ms. You can't say that it is only if you followup with bleed, because why wouldn't you? If you don't followup, its your fault. I'ts like saying raider gets only 15dmg out of gb if he chooses not to carry to wall for 30dmg or zone for 28dmg.

How is it "faster than average" if only 3 Characters have slower, 6 have faster and the rest equal? Please do and show the math for me. And the average could really be slower due to Shugoki lifting the average ALOT. But that is only ONE Character and should be excluded. Stop please. PK Heavy speed is fine, could even be faster if you want her to be the "fast Assassin" she is designed to be. As I said, nerf the followup to 1+10, fine with me. Everything else is overnerfing imo.

Btw you do not want to end your chain every time with the bleed after heavy because, well, it ends your chain. You have basically 3 options after a heavy confirmed hit: bleed followup (end), another heavy or another heavy feint. Saying "you always followup" is wrong - coming from a Rep 47 PK Main.


I accepted it and even wrote you 2 messages dude.

Look at Uplay Launcher.

Sorry, didn't see that. We can do our Duel maybe tomorrow / Sunday or next week.

BarbeQMichael
04-13-2018, 12:27 PM
How is it "faster than average" if only 3 Characters have slower, 6 have faster and the rest equal? Please do and show the math for me. And the average could really be slower due to Shugoki lifting the average ALOT. But that is only ONE Character and should be excluded. Stop please. PK Heavy speed is fine, could even be faster if you want her to be the "fast Assassin" she is designed to be. As I said, nerf the followup to 1+10, fine with me. Everything else is overnerfing imo.


The average heavy attack speeds are
top: 833ms
side: 816 ms

PK has 800ms from both top and sides, so her heavy attack is faster than average neutral heavy attack speed. Her speed would obviously be fine with the fast assassin if her damage was balanced accordingly to something around 25-30.

Charmzzz
04-13-2018, 12:51 PM
The average heavy attack speeds are
top: 833ms
side: 816 ms

PK has 800ms from both top and sides, so her heavy attack is faster than average neutral heavy attack speed. Her speed would obviously be fine with the fast assassin if her damage was balanced accordingly to something around 25-30.

Hahaha, are you for real? Exclude Shugoki and you get 805ms average top and even under 800ms side heavy. Are you really telling me that 16/33ms is so much faster? That is, literally, one or even less than one frame. You cannot be serious about this...

So you want her Heavy Basic Damage to be 10 or 15? Or you want to nerf her bleed followup to 2 damage? You cannot be serious about that, too.

Nerfing PK into oblivion won't help you, I understood that after looking at your statistics. Just go ahead with your ideas, they won't make it anyway because you have very little idea about balance. Mister Raider Stampede and Zone abuse in Dom. ;)

BarbeQMichael
04-13-2018, 12:59 PM
Hahaha, are you for real? Exclude Shugoki and you get 805ms average top and even under 800ms side heavy. Are you really telling me that 16/33ms is so much faster? That is, literally, one or even less than one frame. You cannot be serious about this...

So you want her Heavy Basic Damage to be 10 or 15? Or you want to nerf her bleed followup to 2 damage? You cannot be serious about that, too.

Nerfing PK into oblivion won't help you, I understood that after looking at your statistics. Just go ahead with your ideas, they won't make it anyway because you have very little idea about balance. Mister Raider Stampede and Zone abuse in Dom. ;)

Why would you exclude shugoki? You can't just manipulate statistics like that into your favour. Might aswell exclude ara and cent because they have such fast heavies that they lower the average too much. So without shugo, cent and ara the average heavy speed is now: 846ms from top and 820ms from side.

I dont want the pk heavy to be 10 or 15, but 25-30 would be completely fine.

Nerfing pk wouldn't obviously matter much to me because I don't play her, just the occasional duels against her would be more balanced. I do on the other hand know a thing or two about balance, and the most important thing is that heroes perform equally good, ie. they have 50% +-1% winrate. Pk is clearly ridiculously overpowered currently with her 58%, outperforming everyone by large marging.

E: Even if the pk would have average attack speed, 49dmg for the same attack that deals around 30dmg on average is just blatantly wrong. Image if Highlander's heavies would deal 61dmg, or shugoki 67dmg with uncharged, 98 with charged. That would be the same dps.

Charmzzz
04-13-2018, 01:05 PM
Why would you exclude shugoki? You can't just manipulate statistics like that into your favour. Might aswell exclude ara and cent because they have such fast heavies that they lower the average too much. So without shugo, cent and ara the average heavy speed is now: 846ms from top and 820ms from side.

I dont want the pk heavy to be 10 or 15, but 25-30 would be completely fine.

Nerfing pk wouldn't obviously matter much to me because I don't play her, just the occasional duels against her would be more balanced. I do on the other hand know a thing or two about balance, and the most important thing is that heroes perform equally good, ie. they have 50% +-1% winrate. Pk is clearly ridiculously overpowered currently with her 58%, outperforming everyone by large marging.

Alright, then we don't manipulate statistics by removing the one guy with 1100ms heavy speed. Fine. Still, 16-33ms faster than average heavies IS NOT what makes PK stronger than others. You really dont understand that, dont you? It is her option select from Zone combined with option select from Dodge / Deflect and her dodge distance and recoveries. That is strong on her, not her heavy damage or speed. Do you regularly get hit by PK heavy attacks in a Duel? Where does the PK get's them from? I bet it is from a Light parry and that is coming mostly from her Zone option select. If you dont know what that is: feel free to ask. I can explain it.

58% Winrate in the Top 2.5% Bracket is too high, I am with you there. But nerfing her heavy damage to 25-30 (you mean basic, right?) wouldnt do much. High Rating PK's play only with Zone and an occasional Light from neutral. The rest is reaction-based on opponent because PK has very good punishes.

Edit: Nerfing heavy base damage to 25 would result in 41 Damage combined. Heavy chain damage is 30 right now.

BarbeQMichael
04-13-2018, 01:11 PM
Alright, then we don't manipulate statistics by removing the one guy with 1100ms heavy speed. Fine. Still, 16-33ms faster than average heavies IS NOT what makes PK stronger than others. You really dont understand that, dont you? It is her option select from Zone combined with option select from Dodge / Deflect and her dodge distance and recoveries. That is strong on her, not her heavy damage or speed. Do you regularly get hit by PK heavy attacks in a Duel? Where does the PK get's them from? I bet it is from a Light parry and that is coming mostly from her Zone option select. If you dont know what that is: feel free to ask. I can explain it.


It is not the actual speed, but the damage it deals for the speed. I edited to earlier post but it drowns as usual so i copy it here: Image if Highlander's heavies would deal 61dmg, or shugoki 67dmg with uncharged, 98 with charged. That would be the same dps. Yes, no one gets hit regularly with heavies, but the occasional slip and even more light parries when you play with crappers like hl,raider and the likes who have 600ms lights.



58% Winrate in the Top 2.5% Bracket is too high, I am with you there. But nerfing her heavy damage to 25-30 (you mean basic, right?) wouldnt do much. High Rating PK's play only with Zone and an occasional Light from neutral. The rest is reaction-based on opponent because PK has very good punishes.
I mean the pk heavy which currently deals 34 in physical damage and 15 in bleed, totaling to 49 damage. It shouldn't deal over 30 for that speed.

Charmzzz
04-13-2018, 01:26 PM
I just stop here with saying: PK heavy damage is not the cause of her high winrate in the top skill bracket (which you dont know because you dont play there). At all. Bye.

BarbeQMichael
04-13-2018, 01:33 PM
I just stop here with saying: PK heavy damage is not the cause of her high winrate in the top skill bracket (which you dont know because you dont play there). At all. Bye.

It is not the only reason, but one of the reasons. I don't know what you define top skill bracket so hard to answer, I am in top 0,4% as seen from fhtracker and in-game rating is plat 4, while that is not the absolute top I would call it at least above average or even relatively high.

Arekonator
04-13-2018, 01:43 PM
Surely best unconditional light parry punish have no effect on her winrate.

BarbeQMichael
04-13-2018, 01:51 PM
Surely best unconditional light parry punish have no effect on her winrate.

Am I wrong or does she also have 31-36dmg dodgeattacks? Not sure if those bleed also, but then again it would be just absurd if it did.

Devils-_-legacy
04-13-2018, 01:59 PM
Wtf am I reading lol (PK heavy damage is not the cause of her high winrate in the top skill bracket) I would of thought it was her lights and zone cancel + back dodge that made her decent. I can't remember the last time I've seen her heavy land

BarbeQMichael
04-13-2018, 02:02 PM
Wtf am I reading lol (PK heavy damage is not the cause of her high winrate in the top skill bracket) I would of thought it was her lights and zone cancel + back dodge that made her decent. I can't remember the last time I've seen her heavy land

It takes only a light parry to land a guaranteed heavy. And because her heavies are faster than average and more subtle telegraphed, they will hit more often than average heavies.

Devils-_-legacy
04-13-2018, 02:04 PM
We must play different games her heavy's are highly telegraphed

Charmzzz
04-13-2018, 02:09 PM
Am I wrong or does she also have 31-36dmg dodgeattacks? Not sure if those bleed also, but then again it would be just absurd if it did.

Yes, combined damage is correct. 20/15 base + followup 1+15 bleed. That got nerfed in S1, was even higher. But PK does not have alot of other tools, like unblockables or hyperarmor, at all. All she has is speed and damage. If you face a good turtle - you can just wait for him to attack.

I guess I got your profile on FHTracker wrong then. You are not playing on PC, right? I just found this: https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/BarbeQMichael


Surely best unconditional light parry punish have no effect on her winrate.

Sure it does, but the problem is not the damage itself. It is how she gets it and that wont change if you just nerf her heavy damage. She will stay strong, just takes one more hit to kill someone...
Don't go that route please. PK has downsides, too. Like 0, zero, nada OOS pressure. Not one, I repeat NOT ONE, way to force a reaction from anybody. No mixups in chains.



Wtf am I reading lol (PK heavy damage is not the cause of her high winrate in the top skill bracket) I would of thought it was her lights and zone cancel + back dodge that made her decent. I can't remember the last time I've seen her heavy land

Exactly. But these guys say "nerf heavy damage on her". Fine for me, but won't change her winrate alot.

Charmzzz
04-13-2018, 02:10 PM
Edit: Had to kill my double-post. Forum borked out...

Arekonator
04-13-2018, 02:14 PM
Sure it does, but the problem is not the damage itself. It is how she gets it and that wont change if you just nerf her heavy damage. She will stay strong, just takes one more hit to kill someone...
Don't go that route please. PK has downsides, too. Like 0, zero, nada OOS pressure. Not one, I repeat NOT ONE, way to force a reaction from anybody. No mixups in chains. I would rather see that guys with big 2h weapons got their damage buffed. Specifically LB and maybe warden, to get side (and in LB case top too) heavies in 35 dmg range.

Devils-_-legacy
04-13-2018, 02:15 PM
I've got to admit I've always hated pk mainly because lag makes her lights drop a few frames and the options Ive see are normally lights and zone but this is a first ive seen someone say her heavy's are the issue I'm baffled

BarbeQMichael
04-13-2018, 02:18 PM
Yes, combined damage is correct. 20/15 base + followup 1+15 bleed. That got nerfed in S1, was even higher. But PK does not have alot of other tools, like unblockables or hyperarmor, at all. All she has is speed and damage. If you face a good turtle - you can just wait for him to attack.

I guess I got your profile on FHTracker wrong then. You are not playing on PC, right? I just found this: https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/BarbeQMichael



Sure it does, but the problem is not the damage itself. It is how she gets it and that wont change if you just nerf her heavy damage. She will stay strong, just takes one more hit to kill someone...
Don't go that route please. PK has downsides, too. Like 0, zero, nada OOS pressure. Not one, I repeat NOT ONE, way to force a reaction from anybody. No mixups in chains.




Exactly. But these guys say "nerf heavy damage on her". Fine for me, but won't change her winrate alot.

Thats me.

As the devs said they are going to improve the pk's dagger usage, it means they will buff her (give more soft feints and possible combos), so she needs a heavy tone to her other areas, like the incredibly high damage she puts out and zone. If they are going to give her buff to one area but still want her to lose more, she is going to need a heavy nerfhammer.

Charmzzz
04-13-2018, 02:42 PM
Thats me.

As the devs said they are going to improve the pk's dagger usage, it means they will buff her (give more soft feints and possible combos), so she needs a heavy tone to her other areas, like the incredibly high damage she puts out and zone. If they are going to give her buff to one area but still want her to lose more, she is going to need a heavy nerfhammer.

Cannot see top 0,4% on your profile. Wait, you mean your FHTR Score? Oh god, no, you do not seriously think that is an actual indicator? You DO know it counts in hours played and character levels, right?! :confused:

You mostly play Duels, right? Well, Ok, PK is really strong there. But as Duel is not the main-mode of this game (Dominion is), don't ever expect balance to be done for Duel. Maybe slightly, but not focused on Duel.

PK needs toning down on her Zone (slower or less damage) option select. As they wont change the input to Zone it will stay an option select, so my bet is either it will become 500ms or 15 damage on first hit.

"Improve Dagger usage" means her heavy-cancel into Light. Which is completely trash right now. Like real trash - 99% you get parried doing it. Before they bugged PK chains it was a mediocre tool to counter dodge-bash attacks while you chained, since that is gone - utter trash.

My guess is they fix her options in chains (hopefully) to heavy-soft-feint-GB and heavy-cancel-light with the latter being slower but getting unblockable status. Maybe less damage (11 instead of 16).

BarbeQMichael
04-13-2018, 02:49 PM
Honestly I don't know the formula for it, but it is the only comparable stat there. As long as the stats in there are all game modes together, they are not comparable because a person who plays only duels (like me) gets completely different stats than a similarly skilled player playing only gank modes. It would be like comparing football game scores to basketball. Anyway I would trust more the ingame ratings.

Quoting devs, the duel IS the source of feedback how balanced heroes are, and that is where they gather the stats for balancing, while 4v4 tells how the feats, gearstats teamwork/team composition affect the outcome.

Charmzzz
04-13-2018, 02:57 PM
Honestly I don't know the formula for it, but it is the only comparable stat there. As long as the stats in there are all game modes together, they are not comparable because a person who plays only duels (like me) gets completely different stats than a similarly skilled player playing only gank modes. It would be like comparing football game scores to basketball. Anyway I would trust more the ingame ratings.

Quoting devs, the duel IS the source of feedback how balanced heroes are, and that is where they gather the stats for balancing, while 4v4 tells how the feats, gearstats teamwork/team composition affect the outcome.

FHTR Score is garbage. I would be Top 0.1% considering it, and there are alot of people who beat me up pretty hard. You play Raider alot. God, this guy with Stunning Tap, Stampede and probably one of the best OOS punishes AND super hard hitting chained Zone (50 unblockable damage anyone?) really complains about PK being too strong? Holy... ^^

Show me that quote from Devs please. If they would consider duel that much, why PK did not receive nerfs for 2 seasons now?

BarbeQMichael
04-13-2018, 03:03 PM
Raider can play well in gank fights, but not in duels. I don't play ganks except on rare occasions, mostly just duels or double duels. You can compare raider and pk winrates from here:
https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-gb/news-community/detail.aspx?c=tcm:154-320343-16&ct=tcm:154-76770-32

Also at the same blog post is written:





1v1 data helps us to evaluate if one character is particularly overpowered or underpowered in terms of a pure fight situation.
4v4 data is more about your performance in a team with your Feats and what you bring to the table.

Siegfried-Z
04-13-2018, 03:06 PM
Wow it looks there is only PK here...
The most important thing here is the Valk rework and not the dmg of PK heavies am i wrong ? :confused:

Charmzzz
04-13-2018, 03:08 PM
Raider can play well in gank fights, but not in duels. I don't play ganks except on rare occasions, mostly just duels or double duels. You can compare raider and pk winrates from here:
https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-gb/news-community/detail.aspx?c=tcm:154-320343-16&ct=tcm:154-76770-32

Also at the same blog post is written:

I know that State of Balance blog. Still, Raider is "OP" in Dominion considering that blog, why you don't call for nerfs on him? ;)
And btw, they say "1v1 data helps", not "Quoting devs, the duel IS the source of feedback how balanced heroes are". It is not the only source like it sounded in your words.

I know that PK is superior in Duels, but again, this does not come from her heavy damage in the first place. Feels like talking to walls. I'm out of this discussion. Does mean little anyway cause changes are fixed by now.

BarbeQMichael
04-13-2018, 03:15 PM
I know that State of Balance blog. Still, Raider is "OP" in Dominion considering that blog, why you don't call for nerfs on him? ;)
And btw, they say "1v1 data helps", not "Quoting devs, the duel IS the source of feedback how balanced heroes are". It is not the only source like it sounded in your words.

I know that PK is superior in Duels, but again, this does not come from her heavy damage in the first place. Feels like talking to walls. I'm out of this discussion. Does mean little anyway cause changes are fixed by now.

Yeah not the only source, but the main source as you can interpret from that. As duels are pure hero vs hero fights, whereas ganks are more of feat&gankfests. Yes, pk is superior to anyone in duels, and it is not ONLY because of her damage, but ALSO because of her damage.

Reason why I am not calling for any balances based on dominion is because I don't play it. My wild guess would be main reason why raider does well there is the (sprint) stampede, which if you ask me could be removed from him, because it can't be even used in duels unless you want to give free gb to enemy.

Charmzzz
04-13-2018, 03:24 PM
Yeah not the only source, but the main source as you can interpret from that. As duels are pure hero vs hero fights, whereas ganks are more of feat&gankfests. Yes, pk is superior to anyone in duels, and it is not ONLY because of her damage, but ALSO because of her damage.

Reason why I am not calling for any balances based on dominion is because I don't play it. My wild guess would be main reason why raider does well there is the (sprint) stampede, which if you ask me could be removed from him, because it can't be even used in duels unless you want to give free gb to enemy.

Uhm, you serious? If you ever land a GB, don't you Stampede!? Same move, just different startup (Sprint / GB).

All I can repeat: PK will stay as strong if they do not change her option select.

BarbeQMichael
04-13-2018, 03:31 PM
Uhm, you serious? If you ever land a GB, don't you Stampede!? Same move, just different startup (Sprint / GB).

All I can repeat: PK will stay as strong if they do not change her option select.

Essentially same move with different access; but if you really fail to cgb that is completely your fault. And from gb raider has average punish when you compare to rest of the cast. The sprint stampede however is unusable in duels, but apparently the main reason why raider is so strong in ganks as there it will be hard to dodge anything when engaged already in combat. Like the lb impaling move. Works wonders in 4v4 but no use in duel.

SpaceJim12
04-13-2018, 04:29 PM
Reason why I am not calling for any balances based on dominion is because I don't play it. My wild guess would be main reason why raider does well there is the (sprint) stampede, which if you ask me could be removed from him, because it can't be even used in duels unless you want to give free gb to enemy.

What a point! And I barely play duels, so why there should be balance there instead of Dominion? And thing that make Raider strong in gunks it's his zone-to-top spam, that distract as hell, when made from behind.
And a lot of Raider spam this OP move in duels and feel pretty good with this. Just avoid patterns, don't let opponent know when you feint it and this is perfect parry bait move, that could be same stupid and annoying as PK zone-cancel spam.

Charmzzz
04-13-2018, 04:49 PM
Essentially same move with different access; but if you really fail to cgb that is completely your fault. And from gb raider has average punish when you compare to rest of the cast. The sprint stampede however is unusable in duels, but apparently the main reason why raider is so strong in ganks as there it will be hard to dodge anything when engaged already in combat. Like the lb impaling move. Works wonders in 4v4 but no use in duel.

1. Fail to CGB... Raider is the only one who can CGB while dodging - I call OP! :p
No, for real, sometimes you get catched in an untechable GB if you fall for a bait. And Raider is good with that: Stunning Tap, Zone...

2. Average punish? Complete Stamina drain and guaranteed damage or instant death is average? Holy... No.

3. Yes, he is even stronger in Dominion. I call for Nerfs again! :p

Alustar.
04-13-2018, 06:43 PM
As a person who plays a peacekeeper at rep 17, I can say with 100% accuracy her win rate has nothing to do with heavies from neutral, and barely anything to do with her dodging heavies. They are highly telegraphed and will get you parried repeatedly if that's what you are trying to do. I get very few executions because of this. Hey double light chain into zone or zone cancel into guard break plus bleeds are where the bulk of her damage comes from. The only time a skilled peacekeeper will be using heavies is after a wallsplat or in the event of an Xv1 situation where the opponent has their back to the PK, as even external parries are a threat. If you haven't played PK, you shouldn't be arguing this, because you really don't know what you are taking about.

HazelrahFirefly
04-13-2018, 09:05 PM
Haha this might be the only thread I've ever seen complaining about the PK's heavies.

Never mind advanced play, those things get parried like crazy even against new folks. Her lights and zone are her strength, and as someone who mained PK I am fine with them being nerfed/changed. Its boring to win that way by now.

LEGENDz_31
04-13-2018, 10:22 PM
Wow it looks there is only PK here...
The most important thing here is the Valk rework and not the dmg of PK heavies am i wrong ? :confused:

Iím with ya buddy except Iím on orchiís side of things. Apparently not a lot of people care about this glorious news on our end

EvoX.
04-13-2018, 11:48 PM
Poor Shugoki has to wait even longer. He'll be easily the worst character in the game once these reworks go live.

And PK... will this be the end of an era? I have no idea how they plan to nerf her Zone (which they will) and keep her relevant. I seriously doubt she'll still be the strongest hero after this, but we'll see.

DoctorMcBatman
04-14-2018, 12:48 AM
While you're at it devs can you fix the bug where PK's triple stab and heavy attacks sometimes do no damage? Really atrocious that this has gone unfixed this long. Though there's a laundry list of other bugs the devs have ignored to (or are too incompetent to solve?), so this is unsurprising. Really ****ing annoying though.

Knight_Raime
04-14-2018, 12:55 PM
Devs said before that they want to improve the dagger usage so there is the buff, but otherwise need to tone her powerlevel down so my guess is that heavies drop from 50dmg to around 30 and zone gets balanced (cant feint after first strike), possibly balancging light damage too considering how fast they are.

dagger usage as in the dagger cancel? They'll probably just make it like shamans where it can be canceled into any direction.
Her damage profile is nice but not her main problem imo. Back dash is being fixed. and with lag comp being added in+ some reflex guard fix it seems like her light delayed light combo won't be as strong anymore. Making her zone non cancelable would make it functionally dead in the water.

The issue with her zone cancel is that the recovery she has after it is short enough that she can deflect a HA'ed attack after zoning it. So nerfing the recovery after a cancel seems like the only reasonable fix. But if you add too much recovery canceling it will just be free damage for the enemy. She crutches so hard on her zone alone to be functional that I don't see a nerf to that happening without her kit being overhauled so she doesn't rely on it.

BarbeQMichael
04-14-2018, 01:48 PM
dagger usage as in the dagger cancel? They'll probably just make it like shamans where it can be canceled into any direction.
Her damage profile is nice but not her main problem imo. Back dash is being fixed. and with lag comp being added in+ some reflex guard fix it seems like her light delayed light combo won't be as strong anymore. Making her zone non cancelable would make it functionally dead in the water.

The issue with her zone cancel is that the recovery she has after it is short enough that she can deflect a HA'ed attack after zoning it. So nerfing the recovery after a cancel seems like the only reasonable fix. But if you add too much recovery canceling it will just be free damage for the enemy. She crutches so hard on her zone alone to be functional that I don't see a nerf to that happening without her kit being overhauled so she doesn't rely on it.

Yes, the dagger cancel indeed into bleed just like shaman. That is how I thought it could be.

I tried multiple times to explain in this thread that the pk's damage is not the only or even the main reason why she is so overpowered currently, but certain people created a nice strawman from it and attacked only it as an "argument" against balancing pk.

Backdash luckily gets the fix so heroes like shugo, hl, and practically anyone that is not an assassin can pressure an OOS hero.

The zone is the one that needs looking into, and my suggestion would be to either
>keep it 400ms, but add enough recovery to be able to gb if someone manages to block it
>keep it 400ms, but not be able to cancel it (still being lethal against low health or OOS targets), though this would still make spamming it usable even if the 2nd hit is parried as the first hit is 20dmg, the 2nd is considered a heavy and most heroes get a heavy parry punish for 15dmg so trading would be profitable against almost every hero.
>make it 600ms and the 2nd could come from any direction (2nd hit could also be 600-700ms)

Charmzzz
04-14-2018, 02:02 PM
Yes, the dagger cancel indeed into bleed just like shaman. That is how I thought it could be.

I tried multiple times to explain in this thread that the pk's damage is not the only or even the main reason why she is so overpowered currently, but certain people created a nice strawman from it and attacked only it as an "argument" against balancing pk.

Backdash luckily gets the fix so heroes like shugo, hl, and practically anyone that is not an assassin can pressure an OOS hero.

The zone is the one that needs looking into, and my suggestion would be to either
>keep it 400ms, but add enough recovery to be able to gb if someone manages to block it
>keep it 400ms, but not be able to cancel it (still being lethal against low health or OOS targets), though this would still make spamming it usable even if the 2nd hit is parried as the first hit is 20dmg, the 2nd is considered a heavy and most heroes get a heavy parry punish for 15dmg so trading would be profitable against almost every hero.
>make it 600ms and the 2nd could come from any direction (2nd hit could also be 600-700ms)

1. You said that her heavy damage is way too high and that is one of the reasons why she is so strong. Backpaddling much I guess...
2. Nerfs to Zone: all your suggestions are complete nonsense. Making it unsafe on block would render it completely useless in higher tiers of play. Not being able to cancel it either, would be free parry for everyone where I play. 600ms? Yeah sure, make it the slowest Zone in the game on the Character that should be the fastest...

How about: make it 500ms and dont change anything else? Would be on par with alot of other Zones then (Warden, Orochi, Kensei, Kensei etc.) And when you do that you have to buff her on other things cause her Zone is her only tool right now. 500ms Light is pretty common, and having 17/15 damage on Light - Light isnt that much either.

BarbeQMichael
04-14-2018, 02:14 PM
1. You said that her heavy damage is way too high and that is one of the reasons why she is so strong. Backpaddling much I guess...

Exactly, one of the reasons. Not the only one, nor the main reason. Just one of the reasons.



2. Nerfs to Zone: all your suggestions are complete nonsense. Making it unsafe on block would render it completely useless in higher tiers of play. Not being able to cancel it either, would be free parry for everyone where I play. 600ms? Yeah sure, make it the slowest Zone in the game on the Character that should be the fastest..
Well first, zones are intended to be used against minions in dominion, not 1v1. The cast is currently divided, half of them have good zones for pvp duels as 400-600ms attacks (assassins, wl, kensei, warden, conq), the rest of them having completely unusable zones with the exeption of raider who's zone is nice for stomping beginners.
600ms zone would not be nowhere the slowest, quite the contrary, we have many 800-900ms zones.


1.
How about: make it 500ms and dont change anything else? Would be on par with alot of other Zones then (Warden, Orochi, Kensei, Kensei etc.) And when you do that you have to buff her on other things cause her Zone is her only tool right now. 500ms Light is pretty common, and having 17/15 damage on Light - Light isnt that much either.

500ms zones indeed are extremely deadly, but reactable with some luck. 17dmg for 500ms is still quite much, especially when you get followup for 15dmg at 400ms. I think it would make more sense to make the first light 10-13dmg so that she wouldn't just lightspam everyone so easily to death. This obviously would require balancing some others like the shinobi's ridiculous 24dmg @ 500ms but I guess that will never happen.

Charmzzz
04-14-2018, 02:25 PM
Your suggestions are ridiculous and would drop PK from S-Tier to C-Tier because you would nerf her only viable moves (and yes I know they are too good but she has nothing else) into oblivion. Cannot take you serious. Bye...

I'm in for a serious discussion about nerfs and buffs to PK. My suggestions:

- Zone to 500ms OR Zone Damage to 15 on first hit
- Enable her options in Chains again (every heavy can be soft-feinted into GB or Dagger)
- Make Heavy cancels into Dagger unblockable and PK being able to change the direction, maybe slower it to 500ms (is 400ms now). Nerf Damage to 10 (would nerf Heavy Dagger followup by 5 Damage, too)

BarbeQMichael
04-14-2018, 02:33 PM
Your suggestions are ridiculous and would drop PK from S-Tier to C-Tier because you would nerf her only viable moves (and yes I know they are too good but she has nothing else) into oblivion. Cannot take you serious. Bye...

I'm in for a serious discussion about nerfs and buffs to PK. My suggestions:

- Zone to 500ms OR Zone Damage to 15 on first hit
- Enable her options in Chains again (every heavy can be soft-feinted into GB or Dagger)
- Make Heavy cancels into Dagger unblockable and PK being able to change the direction, maybe slower it to 500ms (is 400ms now). Nerf Damage to 10 (would nerf Heavy Dagger followup by 5 Damage, too)

I'm discussing only about the nerfs here because she is bound to have buffs as already said by devs. But she also will receive some nerfs in order to make her lose more, because as everybody knows and you have to admit too, 58% winrate is 8% units too much of winning.

So while I leave the buffs completely to devs, I only vision the balances which would slightly make her worse, like nerfing the zone and damage.

I personally would love to make all zones to around 600ms, so heroes are not being built around relying on them, merely using them as finishers on low hp or against OOS targets when dueling, but still preserving their main use of killing soldiers. As said above, currently half of the heroes don't have usable zones in duels so I see no reason why one hero (or practically half of them) should have imba zone. They should either all be viable in pvp or all of them should be slow (800ms+) to be used only against soldiers.

Alustar.
04-14-2018, 02:37 PM
I've got a thought, so a small increase to zone attacks first hit (keep it cancel-able), allow her bleeds from heavies to come from more than one direction. And I might be alone in these to propositions, but give her an unlockable second heavy in her double heavy chain and allow her lights to persist in combo regardless of block. As I said I might be alone in these two, but I think they could work wonders to keep her from relying so heavily on zone cancels to do damage.

EvoX.
04-14-2018, 04:53 PM
...and allow her lights to persist in combo regardless of block..

Whoooa. I can already hear console players crying in pain if this were to be implemented.

BarbeQMichael
04-14-2018, 05:01 PM
Whoooa. I can already hear console players crying in pain if this were to be implemented.

Yeah he is essentially proposing to make pk even better :D

Obviously everyone can have opinions about her freely, the cold fact is just that she needs to be nerfed heavily according to devs

Alustar.
04-14-2018, 05:23 PM
In the MMR I get matched up against I don't typically get many light hits, if the first isn't blocked, the second definitely is. Which only reinforces her crutch zone attacks. There would be no increase to the speed or damage of anything. With peacekeeper being a light and highly mobile assassin, I feel this fits the paradigm of her design much better, than getting kicked out of a combo before you even start it up, and could also prompt a more creative play style. Classes with static guard make her light hits a 50/50 guessing game in which chevron they will come from at neutral. This is where most skilled players are finding it easier to deal with her. Keep your guard left to eliminate zone, then react to lights. That's a very well known and incredibly powerful tactic. And this is coming from a console player. Not to mention there were already some heroes that have persistent combos even on block, so it's not like it's new.

Knight_Raime
04-14-2018, 05:48 PM
Yes, the dagger cancel indeed into bleed just like shaman. That is how I thought it could be.

I tried multiple times to explain in this thread that the pk's damage is not the only or even the main reason why she is so overpowered currently, but certain people created a nice strawman from it and attacked only it as an "argument" against balancing pk.

Backdash luckily gets the fix so heroes like shugo, hl, and practically anyone that is not an assassin can pressure an OOS hero.

The zone is the one that needs looking into, and my suggestion would be to either
>keep it 400ms, but add enough recovery to be able to gb if someone manages to block it
>keep it 400ms, but not be able to cancel it (still being lethal against low health or OOS targets), though this would still make spamming it usable even if the 2nd hit is parried as the first hit is 20dmg, the 2nd is considered a heavy and most heroes get a heavy parry punish for 15dmg so trading would be profitable against almost every hero.
>make it 600ms and the 2nd could come from any direction (2nd hit could also be 600-700ms)

I suppose i'd be fine with being able to cancel the bleed into any direction.
I can't get behind the block=GB thing. Especially since most pk's back dash after a zone cancel anyway and with the new back dash changes that should be a free GB anyway.
I really can't support the non cancel nerf either. Zones while technically designed to deal with being surrounded or clear minions are not only for that. and the devs seem to agree since the buff to kensei's zone in his rework was stated to literally happen because they wanted it's use in 1v1.

I think 500ms is more appropriate. Given the current use of it and the design feel of pk. The speed of it really isn't the issue anyway. it's the recovery after the cancel as i've said. The idea to allow her to cancel into something else with her zone via soft feint is interesting though.

BarbeQMichael
04-14-2018, 06:53 PM
I suppose i'd be fine with being able to cancel the bleed into any direction.
I can't get behind the block=GB thing. Especially since most pk's back dash after a zone cancel anyway and with the new back dash changes that should be a free GB anyway.
I really can't support the non cancel nerf either. Zones while technically designed to deal with being surrounded or clear minions are not only for that. and the devs seem to agree since the buff to kensei's zone in his rework was stated to literally happen because they wanted it's use in 1v1.

I think 500ms is more appropriate. Given the current use of it and the design feel of pk. The speed of it really isn't the issue anyway. it's the recovery after the cancel as i've said. The idea to allow her to cancel into something else with her zone via soft feint is interesting though.

Of course you don't have to agree with my proposals, they are pretty harsh as they would bring pk's zone on par with others. Without direct channel with devs I can't really fathom the actual pk zone statistics and future changes. I don't like being the one to tell the bad news but PK needs some nerfs to make her lose more. She is currently the only really overpowered hero in game, with shaman coming close.

So my first proposal is to nerf the zone to oblivion(and yes pk cannot complain because half of the roster already has unusable zones), this would be until all zones are balanced to either be usable in pvp (like assassin, warden, kensei zones now) or unusable and only for minions (like hl, cent, raider, lawbringer)

Alustar.
04-14-2018, 07:06 PM
Of course you don't have to agree with my proposals, they are pretty harsh as they would bring pk's zone on par with others. Without direct channel with devs I can't really fathom the actual pk zone statistics and future changes. I don't like being the one to tell the bad news but PK needs some nerfs to make her lose more. She is currently the only really overpowered hero in game, with shaman coming close.

So my first proposal is to nerf the zone to oblivion(and yes pk cannot complain because half of the roster already has unusable zones), this would be until all zones are balanced to either be usable in pvp (like assassin, warden, kensei zones now) or unusable and only for minions (like hl, cent, raider, lawbringer)

I dismantle most peacekeepers I come across with my shaman. Peacekeeper isn't prepared, especially after the all nerfs she has received since launch. It kills me that players still are saying this. PK and Orochi are possibly the two easiest assassins to deal with. Current berserker, gladiator and shaman are leaps and bounds ahead of them. The main reason peacekeeper does well is the players using her follow her design paradigm and use her as a counter attacker.

BarbeQMichael
04-14-2018, 07:21 PM
I dismantle most peacekeepers I come across with my shaman. Peacekeeper isn't prepared, especially after the all nerfs she has received since launch. It kills me that players still are saying this. PK and Orochi are possibly the two easiest assassins to deal with. Current berserker, gladiator and shaman are leaps and bounds ahead of them. The main reason peacekeeper does well is the players using her follow her design paradigm and use her as a counter attacker.

It's nice if you can beat peacekeepers at your mm rating, but as you can see from here: https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-gb/news-community/detail.aspx?c=tcm:154-320343-16&ct=tcm:154-76770-32

Peacekeeper is the most overpowered hero in game, followed by shaman and shinobi.

They are bound to receive balancing (like the poor lb who will finally get rid of the shove on block and get something usable) to get their winrate to 50%.

BlowHard74728
04-14-2018, 07:25 PM
Yes because nerfing part of the characters kit to where it is no longer viable is exactly what this game needs. (NOT)

And Alustar: When you say allow her bleeds from heavys to come from more than one direction. You are talking about her riposting stab (heavy cancel into light) correct?

Charmzzz
04-14-2018, 07:27 PM
Yes because nerfing part of the characters kit to where it is no longer viable is exactly what this game needs. (NOT)

And Alustar: When you say allow her bleeds from heavys to come from more than one direction. You are talking about her riposting stab (heavy cancel into light) correct?

Riposting Stab is the Deflect. He is talking about the Heavy cancel into Light, as you said. Just does not have a name.

BlowHard74728
04-14-2018, 07:37 PM
Thank you just got the names mixed up.

Anyway yes she needs to be able to cancel her heavys into light in any direction she wants. As of right now that move is rather useless. The fact that she cant even switch the way it comes from keeps me from utilizing that move.

Id rather just use the heavy and have a chance of hitting my opponent and doing some real damage

Its great for 4v4 when you're able to land it assuming there is a shaman on your team of course.

EDIT: The name of the move is Deep Gouge

BarbeQMichael
04-14-2018, 07:45 PM
Thank you just got the names mixed up.

Anyway yes she needs to be able to cancel her heavys into light in any direction she wants. As of right now that move is rather useless. The fact that she cant even switch the way it comes from keeps me from utilizing that move.

Id rather just use the heavy and have a chance of hitting my opponent and doing some real damage

Its great for 4v4 when you're able to land it assuming there is a shaman on your team of course.

EDIT: The name of the move is Deep Gouge

This is probably coming, but we are more interested in the nerfs she is about to get, as she is about to receive (if the devs don't lie) a quite heavy nerfhammer

BlowHard74728
04-14-2018, 08:04 PM
This is probably coming, but we are more interested in the nerfs she is about to get, as she is about to receive (if the devs don't lie) a quite heavy nerfhammer

The only nerfs i see that she could need is of course her zone which as someone has stated above should be pushed to 500ms.

She has already recieved a major nerf with back dodge being nerfed for all.

And truthfully her lights are at a good place in my opinion. I have no problem blocking them.
I believe it has something to do with the fact that i play as her.

Which in that case just means that spending time with different characters and learning their kit is the best way to learn to beat them.

Alustar.
04-14-2018, 08:27 PM
Yes because nerfing part of the characters kit to where it is no longer viable is exactly what this game needs. (NOT)

And Alustar: When you say allow her bleeds from heavys to come from more than one direction. You are talking about her riposting stab (heavy cancel into light) correct?

That would be nice and preferable as that gets blocked frequently, or the follow up bleed after a heavy however that has unblockables properties and usually always connects if you land the initial heavy.

Alustar.
04-14-2018, 08:37 PM
A high win ratio is not indicative of them being over powered, it likely indicates that she is a popular choice, and I'd utilized well with players at higher skill levels.
To give an example, I play against other players that I consider much better than myself and they don't use peacekeeper. By your logic, I should win more of those matches just simply because I'm using an "overpowered" character. However, if I really want to play more to my potential, I run shaman or highlander, as I sync better with their play styles. Not to mention, I hardly see peacekeepers anymore, but for some reason she still ranks top, why is that? Because she has been out for a year, versus other hero's that are newer and haven't had the same amount of time to build those statistic.

Another example (and to show you how skewed statistical analysis can be.) My over all performance based off the FHtracker shows my peacekeeper as skill my strongest hero, even though I run maybe 1/10 matches with her at best.

BarbeQMichael
04-14-2018, 09:50 PM
A high win ratio is not indicative of them being over powered, it likely indicates that she is a popular choice, and I'd utilized well with players at higher skill levels.
This is where you go wrong, winrate is the sole most important factor in balance. Because that is how statistics work. In the long run, like in this game, global winrate will tell the very accurately how heroes perform.
Pick rate, as you say with PK, does not affect her winrate. Why not? Because diminished returns. Not only good players pick her, but also bad.
It does not matter if there are 500 good players and 500 bad players playing her, or 5000 good and 5000 bad players who pick her. The winrate will remain the same.


Yes, by my logic and by pure maths, you should win more if you pick peacekeeper. She has global winrate of 58% (from the best 2,5% of players) which is the best. It would be like tossing coin with one side heavier than the other, thus giving us the rate of 60-40 heads/crown. By your logic that would be just because people betted on heads more often.



Another example (and to show you how skewed statistical analysis can be.) My over all performance based off the FHtracker shows my peacekeeper as skill my strongest hero, even though I run maybe 1/10 matches with her at best.

This is just not how statistics work. If you were a godlike player, able to win anything with everything, you could pick Highlander and win 100% with him and tell us he is OK or even good, neither of wich are true. Why? Because you are just one sample out of thousands.

Alustar.
04-15-2018, 01:42 PM
If peacekeeper are legitimately overpowered, she would appear much more in duels and 4s than she currently is. But I'm done arguing this as it is entirely opinion based. If you think she's so OP, go run her for a week then come back and tell me how you did, because a truly overpowered hero means that regardless of skill, you WILL win match ups based solely on the hero choice and that never happens.

BarbeQMichael
04-16-2018, 12:13 AM
If peacekeeper are legitimately overpowered, she would appear much more in duels and 4s than she currently is. But I'm done arguing this as it is entirely opinion based. If you think she's so OP, go run her for a week then come back and tell me how you did, because a truly overpowered hero means that regardless of skill, you WILL win match ups based solely on the hero choice and that never happens.

How could it be opinion based if it is based on hard statistics? You can go and see for yourself: https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-gb/news-community/detail.aspx?c=tcm:154-320343-16&ct=tcm:154-76770-32

And yes, people will win more with peacekeeper than with other heroes as proved by statistics.

HazelrahFirefly
04-16-2018, 01:47 AM
The PK definitely needs a buff. The Shaman and Glad are both superior versions of her. Nerf the zone recovery and then tune up the rest of her kit to be worthwhile.

Alustar.
04-16-2018, 11:56 AM
How could it be opinion based if it is based on hard statistics? You can go and see for yourself: https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-gb/news-community/detail.aspx?c=tcm:154-320343-16&ct=tcm:154-76770-32

And yes, people will win more with peacekeeper than with other heroes as proved by statistics.

You had 50 reps in warlord and none in almost every other character. Go run peacekeeper for a week and come back and argue this. You have an incredible bias and it's showing. Your only experience has been fighting against them. You cannot give an objective opinion about characters you know nothing about. I'll repeat, go play her and then come back to argue this, then maybe I'll listen to a word you say.

BarbeQMichael
04-16-2018, 12:27 PM
You had 50 reps in warlord and none in almost every other character. Go run peacekeeper for a week and come back and argue this. You have an incredible bias and it's showing. Your only experience has been fighting against them. You cannot give an objective opinion about characters you know nothing about. I'll repeat, go play her and then come back to argue this, then maybe I'll listen to a word you say.

I play wl rarely, he is rep 3 or 4. But I am not giving opinions here based on my subjective experiences, but based on hard statistics. The reason why pk has a winrate of 58% while the mentioned warlord has 51%, is that because pk is much stronger duelist than the WL , or any other hero.

Those numbers literally mean, that a good player, who plays warlord, will start winning more if he switches to peacekeeper.

Alustar.
04-16-2018, 01:09 PM
I play wl rarely, he is rep 3 or 4. But I am not giving opinions here based on my subjective experiences, but based on hard statistics. The reason why pk has a winrate of 58% while the mentioned warlord has 51%, is that because pk is much stronger duelist than the WL , or any other hero.

Those numbers literally mean, that a good player, who plays warlord, will start winning more if he switches to peacekeeper.

My bad, that was someone else I was arguing with about this very topic.
You touched on it, though a good player. A good player can touch any hero and perform well. A good player is going to practice with a character to have a much more realistic idea of how to counter them. Second hand Statistics are not a viable substitute for first hand knowledge, as all you are doing is parroting what other players have said before you. And that's where this comes from.
A good player going against a peacekeeper is going to do one thing. Keep guard to right, react to lights. Upon confirmed block of light or zone she gets guard broken. Happened to me. That and bait out dodge strikes for another free guard break. If you haven't figured that out yet, go give it a shot. My original statement still stands, however, if you really wish to discuss peacekeeper with someone who has repped get to 17, you should at least have a week's work of time playing her, other wise yes, you are arguing with a bias. You can provide all the statistics you wish, but you have no valid first hand knowledge of her kit flow(or lack there of). From my personal experience she is severely lacking in critical areas, and multiple other players on this forum have even tried to tell you that her only real strength is a gimped zone which can be dealt with simply by a right guard stance. You do that, you negate any form of "opener" she has outside of lights which can be reacted to easier than her zone.
If you run assassin, alternate between right and top guard.

BarbeQMichael
04-16-2018, 01:22 PM
I am well aware of what pk has in her kit. But what I am trying tell you here, is that pk is the strongest hero in the game in 1v1 situation. That is shown in the stats I linked earlier. I don't know how can I say it any more clearly, that there is no other hero as good in terms of raw power and ability to win. Granted that she is restricted to quite few tricks, so she is not good in my opinion as from the playing perspective. Compare to shaman or gladiator, they have much more versatile kits and thus more fun to play, but they still are not good as the PK in terms of power.

Arekonator
04-16-2018, 01:45 PM
On the contrary, statistic > your anecdotal evidence.

Alustar.
04-16-2018, 02:03 PM
Matches aren't won by statistics, they are won by skill. Those statistics do not tell the whole story. They don't tell rep of players involved, how many attacks are made, how many were successful, how many times a player was parried. They only show an after the fact look of the match up. Using statistics is not a valid argument as to what characters are OP or not, because the same statics can be skewed to fit any argument you wish. Statistics aren't facts. Knowledge and first hand accounts are facts. So either get some of that or don't, in not the one that's going to suffer.
I'm done arguing this, as you are not bringing any new information, and relying on one flawed argument to prop up your opinion of the matter.

BarbeQMichael
04-16-2018, 02:16 PM
Matches aren't won by statistics
This is true, because the statistics show how many of the matches were won.


They don't tell rep of players involved, how many attacks are made, how many were successful, how many times a player was parried.
They don't matter so why should they be shown?


Using statistics is not a valid argument as to what characters are OP or not, because the same statics can be skewed to fit any argument you wish.
Using statistics are the most accurate way to determine the performance of an hero, ie is the overperforming or underperforming, because stats don't lie. How can they be skewed to fit any argument? If the stats support the claim, it is probably true.


Statistics aren't facts.
Wrong, statistics ARE the facts.



I'm done arguing this, as you are not bringing any new information, and relying on one flawed argument to prop up your opinion of the matter.
What do you mean by relying on flawed argument? I rely only cold facts which you can read yourself too.

Arekonator
04-16-2018, 02:30 PM
"Statistic are not facts"
Except they are? And arguably more objective as argument than most. Just because you dont like it doesnt make it flawed or any less valid. The win percentage just tells you that when players of same skill category compete with each other, those using PK are winning more. That just means PK is stronger than others by decent margin. Of course, it doesnt tell you WHY is she stronhger, just that she is.

I remember during S1 and even beta, people saying "PK is not too strong, you just need to git gud". Now, one year and several nerfs later, she is STILL considered to be the strongest hero overall, for all gamemodes. By competetive players (you know, those "high skill level", that you like to throw around so much). Now why she is so strong and what should be done about it, thats matter for whole separate discussion, but at this point, trying to deny that she is, is short sighted to say the least.

Dry.Fish
04-16-2018, 02:33 PM
I think there is some truth to the "statistics" let take Valk vs Shinobi for example. She has a 54% win rate against him. Mostly because of her range on hunters pounce, heavy chain finishers and random raw heavies.

Knight_Raime
04-16-2018, 02:38 PM
How could it be opinion based if it is based on hard statistics? You can go and see for yourself: https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-gb/news-community/detail.aspx?c=tcm:154-320343-16&ct=tcm:154-76770-32

And yes, people will win more with peacekeeper than with other heroes as proved by statistics.

I think what alustar was getting at was that pk isn't OP because her kit isn't the problem. it's how she benefits from the games base mechanics.

Specifically referring to her recoveries, dash distances, and zone option select. Without those she's rather weak. It's sort of arguing semantics. But I just thought i'd try to point out what they were getting at.

Charmzzz
04-16-2018, 02:44 PM
PK is, due to her Zone option select, the best Duelist in the game. No question about that. But a simple nerf to her Zone won't do anything good if you screw the Character with it.

Does PK need a nerf to her Zone? Yes.
Does PK need more options in her kit? Definitely yes.

Calling for a plain nerf is simply stupid.

Arekonator
04-16-2018, 02:49 PM
PK is, due to her Zone option select, the best Duelist in the game. No question about that. But a simple nerf to her Zone won't do anything good if you screw the Character with it.

Does PK need a nerf to her Zone? Yes.
Does PK need more options in her kit? Definitely yes.

Calling for a plain nerf is simply stupid.

The question is, can we get more options to her kit without recycling tools from other characters, to keep her somewhat unique AND usefull,
Arguably, plain nerf would be decent option, if she wasnt relying on just two or three extremely strong tools.

Charmzzz
04-16-2018, 02:55 PM
The question is, can we get more options to her kit without recycling tools from other characters, to keep her somewhat unique AND usefull,
Arguably, plain nerf would be decent option, if she wasnt relying on just two or three extremely strong tools.

As I already posted many times, giving her back her original options would be a good start. Then do something to her Dagger cancel and she will be fine.
All Characters from the OG roster and the first DLC rely on 2-3 tricks in their kit. When DLC 2 and 3 released the kits got more versatile, and the reworks in S5 go into the right direction imo (only Zerker should be tuned down a bit).

D3dicatedSrv3rz
04-16-2018, 03:24 PM
Yeah he is essentially proposing to make pk even better :D

Obviously everyone can have opinions about her freely, the cold fact is just that she needs to be nerfed heavily according to devs

If aramusha can get away with endless lights and better feints why not give the character originally best known for her lights such a buff if you plan on nuking her zone atk??

BarbeQMichael
04-16-2018, 04:52 PM
The question is, can we get more options to her kit without recycling tools from other characters, to keep her somewhat unique AND usefull,
Arguably, plain nerf would be decent option, if she wasnt relying on just two or three extremely strong tools.

My guess is that she gets very shaman -like dagger handling. Possibly something else too.


PK is, due to her Zone option select, the best Duelist in the game. No question about that. But a simple nerf to her Zone won't do anything good if you screw the Character with it.

Does PK need a nerf to her Zone? Yes.
Does PK need more options in her kit? Definitely yes.

Calling for a plain nerf is simply stupid.

Yes the PK does not have many tools, but with those few, she is by far the best. And thats why a simple nerf won't do or she would become too bad. Luckily the devs are giving her more options which can be balanced by nerfs to the zone and whatever they decide to, it depends really much how much they are going to buff the other areas.

Charmzzz
04-16-2018, 04:57 PM
That's what I am saying the whole Thread... All I got back was "nerf to ground" examples cause of too high winrate. And now this? Why?

Alustar.
04-16-2018, 05:03 PM
So this just hit me and in kind of ashamed in myself for not having caught it sooner, but you are trying to say she wins almost all her match ups based offer an overall 58% win rate. Not 90-100, not 70-80, hell not even 65... 58% just barely over half. Where I'm from anything less than 60% is failing. You are complaining about essentially an F on a gradient scale of 1-100. Hey you continue, with all the fury of a thousand epileptic dodo gourds, vehemently perking at a keyboard, "RABBLE RABBLE! 58%! She wins damn near every match she's in!! RABBLE RABBLE, OP NERFNERFNERF, RABBLE RABBLE, RABBLERABBLERABBLE!"
I can't even anymore! XD XD XD
I rest my case, your honor... Alu out.

BarbeQMichael
04-16-2018, 05:18 PM
That's what I am saying the whole Thread... All I got back was "nerf to ground" examples cause of too high winrate. And now this? Why?

Because I told multiple pages ago that I am not going to speculate more about the buffs she is bound the get, but instead ponder about the nerfs she needs. Currently she wins too much so she needs some nerfing, and as she is about to get buffs, she will need more nerfs. I know it sounds cruel, especially as she is your main, but she needs to win less.



So this just hit me and in kind of ashamed in myself for not having caught it sooner, but you are trying to say she wins almost all her match ups based offer an overall 58% win rate. Not 90-100, not 70-80, hell not even 65... 58% just barely over half. Where I'm from anything less than 60% is failing. You are complaining about essentially an F on a gradient scale of 1-100. Hey you continue, with all the fury of a thousand epileptic dodo gourds, vehemently perking at a keyboard, "RABBLE RABBLE! 58%! She wins damn near every match she's in!! RABBLE RABBLE, OP NERFNERFNERF, RABBLE RABBLE, RABBLERABBLERABBLE!"
I can't even anymore! XD XD XD
I rest my case, your honor... Alu out.

I'm not saying she wins almost all of her matchups, I am saying she win 58% of them. That is 8% units too much. This is not about personal statistics, but global stats. I can't explain this any more clearly, if you don't know how statistics work, I can't help.

Alustar.
04-16-2018, 06:03 PM
RAAAAAAAGHH! 58 is not EXACTLY half! Nerd raaaaage! OP nerf her! NERF HER! XD XD
That's you, that's how you sound.

YOH, tell me if you win 58 out of 100 matches, would you consider yourself OP?

Alustar.
04-16-2018, 06:06 PM
I think what alustar was getting at was that pk isn't OP because her kit isn't the problem. it's how she benefits from the games base mechanics.

Specifically referring to her recoveries, dash distances, and zone option select. Without those she's rather weak. It's sort of arguing semantics. But I just thought i'd try to point out what they were getting at.

Pretty much on the head! I would say those items alone are what keep her competing at high ranked play. And that's more than half the reason I stopped playing her. I never felt she was OP, and still don't, I just feel that she relies too much on gimped attacks that only really catch new and shower players offer guard. So I switched to shaman because I wanted options and mix ups.

Charmzzz
04-16-2018, 07:35 PM
Alu you cannot argue that 58% Winrate is too high. Because it is when everybody else is much closer to 50%. Still, I don't like the attempt to talk about nerfs when nobody knows what "buffs" she will get.

@BarbeQMichael: Can you link that for me please? Where did they say anything about buffs?

Arekonator
04-16-2018, 07:45 PM
RAAAAAAAGHH! 58 is not EXACTLY half! Nerd raaaaage! OP nerf her! NERF HER! XD XD
That's you, that's how you sound.

YOH, tell me if you win 58 out of 100 matches, would you consider yourself OP?

Your lack of self-awareness is amusing.

Vixence
04-16-2018, 11:54 PM
orochi light attacks r just slower than any1 heavies (cent. aramusa)
this pissing me off
another one is gb on my riptide startup
buffing its damage wont help on hitting it amirite?
and EVERY1 just every1 can mindgame u same or even better than orochi
she just needs some counterparts to her dodge-strikes
warden laughs with his recovery times on my strom rush etc etc
some other utility to bait but not just damn hevy feints that EAT UR STAMINA LIKE BURGERS
seriously EVERY1 have just ****ing infinite green bar
one headbutt \ punchface and thats all
u wanna bait? no stamina becuz not everyone buy it
centurion can outperform anyone. lightning fast heavies\ with unblockables and he can do that all the night
im talking about utility not for the difficulty to play against
and all the new cahracters\ kensei got freaking amount of utilities to play with
u cant predict just everything
every skill is risk to be beaten but not to beat

ps played against lvl 40~ kensei
and this guy just terrifying
fainting everything\superaromor\unblockables
i couldnt stand this amount oif ****

pss yea. having a liitle butthurting but still can bait wardens top heavy faint into dodge-strike

BarbeQMichael
04-17-2018, 12:08 PM
@BarbeQMichael: Can you link that for me please? Where did they say anything about buffs?

I'm refering to the state of game -blog where they stated that

We are currently looking at changes to the Peacekeeper to improve her gameplay and improve usefulness of dagger cancel


I read that as at least two different buffs incoming, one with the dagger cancel (probably like shaman) and another more vague improvement.

EvoX.
04-17-2018, 01:20 PM
We are currently looking at changes to the Peacekeeper to improve her gameplay and improve usefulness of dagger cancel

Incoming 400ms dagger cancels from any direction.

HazelrahFirefly
04-17-2018, 02:14 PM
The problem with relying solely on the state of balance blog that shows the dueling win % rates is that is is only the top 2.5% of players (it's 2.5, right? I can't actually remember).

What if only one person played the PK among those 2.5% but won 58% of their matches. We have no idea, and therefore....

BarbeQMichael
04-17-2018, 02:26 PM
The problem with relying solely on the state of balance blog that shows the dueling win % rates is that is is only the top 2.5% of players (it's 2.5, right? I can't actually remember).

What if only one person played the PK among those 2.5% but won 58% of their matches. We have no idea, and therefore....

Devs said in that same blog that the top 2,5% for duels and 4% of dominion gives them large enough sample size for those statistics to be reliable, i.e. the margin of error gets diminished returns.

Charmzzz
04-17-2018, 03:22 PM
Devs said in that same blog that the top 2,5% for duels and 4% of dominion gives them large enough sample size for those statistics to be reliable, i.e. the margin of error gets diminished returns.

Still, without more information these percentages have to be viewed carefully. Statistics are only as good as the metrics that got used to get them. We just don't know.

But I agree, PK has to be tweaked. Still, stop discussing nerfs only as it will trigger all PK Mains, including me. If it would be a diverse discussion, fine. But it isnt, most posts were like "nerf her until she is useless!". Nobody likes that...

Knight_Raime
04-17-2018, 06:06 PM
orochi light attacks r just slower than any1 heavies (cent. aramusa)
this pissing me off
another one is gb on my riptide startup
buffing its damage wont help on hitting it amirite?
and EVERY1 just every1 can mindgame u same or even better than orochi
she just needs some counterparts to her dodge-strikes
warden laughs with his recovery times on my strom rush etc etc
some other utility to bait but not just damn hevy feints that EAT UR STAMINA LIKE BURGERS
seriously EVERY1 have just ****ing infinite green bar
one headbutt \ punchface and thats all
u wanna bait? no stamina becuz not everyone buy it
centurion can outperform anyone. lightning fast heavies\ with unblockables and he can do that all the night
im talking about utility not for the difficulty to play against
and all the new cahracters\ kensei got freaking amount of utilities to play with
u cant predict just everything
every skill is risk to be beaten but not to beat

ps played against lvl 40~ kensei
and this guy just terrifying
fainting everything\superaromor\unblockables
i couldnt stand this amount oif ****

pss yea. having a liitle butthurting but still can bait wardens top heavy faint into dodge-strike

Orochi top lights are 500ms. Armusha and cent have 600ms heavies. So that's just factually incorrect.
RIptide is not the only attack that can be GBed on start up. every attack in the game can be. The damage buff was nice but it needs I frames to proper dodge most things on reaction.
Storm rush canceling is actually more effective than warden SB canceling as far as bait games go.

Centurion is barely a B tier hero. his unblockables are dodged on reaction by pretty much anyone who's a decent player these days.
Kensei has had armor since launch. the only new armor he got was on light finishers. Also he got one extra unblockable. the pommel. Which is stuffed with light attacks and avoided by a dodge of any kind since it has no tracking.