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Illyrian_King
04-10-2018, 01:54 PM
Please Ubisoft, I hope you are aware that in the current state the top classes are Assassins.

They have ultra fast lights, unblockables and CC (like heavies or even more) and only a bit less health ...

What's about the the heavier classes?

I would cover it with my own words, but this guy actually nails it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYSqRQVtSYU


!!! This is not an advertise by any means, it's just to compensate my own lack in wrapping it up this well, so please don't censor it !!!

Knight_Raime
04-10-2018, 01:59 PM
Infinite is an alright guy but I think he doesn't quite grasp things as well as he thinks he does when discussing some things.

Illyrian_King
04-10-2018, 02:05 PM
I also don't share all his points of view, but in this case he speaks my tongue.

How can a Shaman girl with some cloth stripes have 120HP and a full-plate wrapped Lawbringer have only 150HP and be weaker in general.

There is simply nothing more left to the heavy classes, beside 20-30HP more and slower attacks with a fullblock guard (which doesn't help a lot)

Charmzzz
04-10-2018, 02:05 PM
PK and Zerker are S-Tier in Duel, no question, but they are followed immediately by Conq. So Top 3 would be 2 Assassins, one Heavy. Orochi and Shinobi are low B-Tier, Gladiator maybe low A-Tier. Shaman solid A-Tier. So, where are all the Assassins in Top Tiers? This Tier-List is mostly confirmed by Pros and reflects alot of other guys from the Forums.

Concerning Dominion, man, Raider and Lawbringer are the way to go since 2-3 seasons now. Nobushi has always been a solid pick too, Warlord before his nerfs was the best class overall.

Have a look here and consider re-thinking your statement: https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-gb/news-community/detail.aspx?c=tcm:154-320343-16&ct=tcm:154-76770-32

Charmzzz
04-10-2018, 02:08 PM
I also don't share all his points of view, but in this case he speaks my tongue.

How can a Shaman girl with some cloth stripes have 120HP and a full-plate wrapped Lawbringer have only 150HP and be weaker in general.

There is simply nothing more left to the heavy classes, beside 20-30HP more and slower attacks with a fullblock guard (which doesn't help a lot)

"Slower attacks"? Where you got that from? LB Top Light: 500ms. Conq Lights: 500ms. Speed of Heavy Attacks: 800-900ms for most classes. Can you give real Data or examples to prove your points, please?

Knight_Raime
04-10-2018, 02:19 PM
I also don't share all his points of view, but in this case he speaks my tongue.

How can a Shaman girl with some cloth stripes have 120HP and a full-plate wrapped Lawbringer have only 150HP and be weaker in general.

There is simply nothing more left to the heavy classes, beside 20-30HP more and slower attacks with a fullblock guard (which doesn't help a lot)

I mean I don't really care for things making sense in terms of realism. This is clearly a fantasy game. But i've been down that road and don't really wish to discuss it again.

Health values and stamina pools being bumped up in favor of longer and more intense fights is something i've wanted for a good while now. But i'm not sure if it will happen ever.
And honestly I don't care about the class designations anymore.

None of the classes are defined well. And the only heros who actually seem to have some sembelence of self or at least "feel" like they have an identity are hybrid heros. Assassins only being different in regards to deflect (which who cares about it compared to parrying atm) and their guard being worse at defending. Heavies being joke ideas that some how managed to make it to the table. And vanguards being decent starting options but practically useless once you actually learn the game because none of them have viable options in higher brackets (well. till kensei was reworked. Now he can compete.)

I can understand a dig at assassins. But I feel it's less of an assassin problem and more of the rest of the game being poorly done.

Illyrian_King
04-10-2018, 02:37 PM
PK and Zerker are S-Tier in Duel, no question, but they are followed immediately by Conq. So Top 3 would be 2 Assassins, one Heavy. Orochi and Shinobi are low B-Tier, Gladiator maybe low A-Tier. Shaman solid A-Tier. So, where are all the Assassins in Top Tiers? This Tier-List is mostly confirmed by Pros and reflects alot of other guys from the Forums.

Concerning Dominion, man, Raider and Lawbringer are the way to go since 2-3 seasons now. Nobushi has always been a solid pick too, Warlord before his nerfs was the best class overall.

Have a look here and consider re-thinking your statement: https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-gb/news-community/detail.aspx?c=tcm:154-320343-16&ct=tcm:154-76770-32

Yes Conq is only one heavy on top ... but Orochi only one Assassin in trash tier.

If you watched the the statistic you on your own, you would see, that Shinobi is performing pretty well with his safe double dodge safe kick and fast lights.

If you went even further reading your own link's page, you would know that LBs main strenght in Dominion is just his set of bombs (which is a feat and not his "kit")

LB also has no real light mix-up so his 500ms are pretty reactable if you just keep your guard up. I am not asking to give him ultra fast light chains, but i ask to make him more impactful.

Assassins (beside Orochi), have unblockables and CC like Heavies (sometimes even more), about same damage (except Highlander), much more fast light spam, only a snitch less health and a lot of bleeds and deflect ... here you go!



I mean I don't really care for things making sense in terms of realism. This is clearly a fantasy game. But i've been down that road and don't really wish to discuss it again.

Health values and stamina pools being bumped up in favor of longer and more intense fights is something i've wanted for a good while now. But i'm not sure if it will happen ever.
And honestly I don't care about the class designations anymore.

None of the classes are defined well. And the only heros who actually seem to have some sembelence of self or at least "feel" like they have an identity are hybrid heros. Assassins only being different in regards to deflect (which who cares about it compared to parrying atm) and their guard being worse at defending. Heavies being joke ideas that some how managed to make it to the table. And vanguards being decent starting options but practically useless once you actually learn the game because none of them have viable options in higher brackets (well. till kensei was reworked. Now he can compete.)

I can understand a dig at assassins. But I feel it's less of an assassin problem and more of the rest of the game being poorly done.

I would care for realism, if there was left anything of it in this game.

But you are right. The Heroes aren't designed very well, and now as it seems with the reworks all the classes seems to be getting the same medicine in form of unblockables, CC, hyperarmour and fast lights.

My main concern is, that the contrast between the Heroes is becoming less and less over time, for though most Heroes may feel the same in the end.

Hormly
04-10-2018, 02:43 PM
If were assigning HP based on the asthetic logic of the characters then shaman would die in one hit for not wearing a helmet and the knights would all be invincible.

Aside from that, infinite nails it. The assassins have nearly every advantage and whatever drawbacks they have are negligible

Devils-_-legacy
04-10-2018, 02:43 PM
You are also forgeting Conq is also the only heavy currently reworked after the og roster gets a tune up I can see heavy's being as strong as they were in s1 if they get a similar treatment as the other reworks and not a "rebalance" like nobushi

Charmzzz
04-10-2018, 02:46 PM
Yes Conq is only one heavy on top ... but Orochi only one Assassin in trash tier.

If you watched the the statistic you on your own, you would see, that Shinobi is performing pretty well with his safe double dodge safe kick and fast lights.

If you went even further reading your own link's page, you would know that LBs main strenght in Dominion is just his set of bombs (which is a feat and not his "kit")

LB also has no real light mix-up so his 500ms are pretty reactable if you just keep your guard up. I am not asking to give him ultra fast light chains, but i ask to make him more impactful.

Assassins (beside Orochi), have unblockables and CC like Heavies (sometimes even more), about same damage (except Highlander), much more fast light spam, only a snitch less health and a lot of bleeds and deflect ... here you go!


Shinobi: 53% Winrate. On Par with Shugoki, a Heavy. Argument - denied.
LB in Dominion: completely ignored the "Impale" which is mentioned in the Link. Sure, Bombs are good, but LB only gets them if he kills people, you know? Impale is, with Stampede, THE BEST ganking tool in the game.
LB is third in S4 Duel Winrate! 55% Winrate. What are you talking about him being so weak? He has Shove-on-Block which is a ridiculous good move just from turtling... Get a GB from it for instant Impale into Wall Splat into massive Damage...

Statement that Assassins have UB's and CC like Heavies is false. Orochi (as you mentioned) and PK do not have UB's nor CC. Zerker just got his UB with the rework. Glad and Shaman UB's are as slow as every UB is.

Btw Assassins have decaying guard (1000 / 700 / 500ms). When they change guard they have to wait for it to decay, until then they cannot dodge. Did you know that? Try dodge-rolling with an Assassin in a fight when someone else throws a feat at you... ;)

SpaceJim12
04-10-2018, 03:07 PM
Hmm, I see in video the three most easiest and OP chars, so maybe problem not in the assassins? I mean, Zerc are just too powerful after rework, their were strong enough before it. Shaman just stupid quintessence of all game mechanics. So this video just prove that Shaman and Zerc need nerf. Gladiator, on the other hand, hard if you don't know what to do with him. I see enough players on heavy and hybrids who can crush me playing Glad. Kenseis could even destroy Shamans, I tried myself. So, what the point?


If you went even further reading your own link's page, you would know that LBs main strenght in Dominion is just his set of bombs (which is a feat and not his "kit")

Well, you wrong here. I started play on LB couple days ago, and I could say in Dominion he is very useful. I don't have statistic like Charmz, but his light are huge thing, sure you can hold block on top, but if you are Assassin...it would vanish to faaast, and than you are almost unable to react. Push up, stun moves. And above all, on LB I remembred better days, when I could stand agins three, showing them hell.
And what about Raider. His feint zone-to-top are super fast, and you'll never know what it will be, top, or zone. So raider spaming this randomly in teamfight are waaay better than assassins.


Assassins (beside Orochi), have unblockables and CC like Heavies (sometimes even more), about same damage (except Highlander), much more fast light spam, only a snitch less health and a lot of bleeds and deflect ... here you go!

Why everyone take down Orochi? Last time I checked, he was just fine. Easily can stand against whole chars.

BarbeQMichael
04-10-2018, 03:37 PM
Yes, currently assassins are better than normal heroes by having more and better tools than regular heroes without any actual drawbacks. But as you can read from the devblog already posted here, pk is getting nerfed and shaman very likely, but the shaman nerf is going to wait a little longer to gather more data what will be needed for her. Also the upcoming backdodge changes hopefully remove the "get out of trouble for free" -card assassins have. As for now, all you really can do is to hop on the bandwagon and play assassins yourself, or just accept the second place and play with some other heroes.

Hormly
04-10-2018, 03:44 PM
When fighting assassins i feel like Marv fighting frodo in sin city

Titanodragon
04-10-2018, 04:26 PM
Shinobi: 53% Winrate. On Par with Shugoki, a Heavy. Argument - denied.
LB in Dominion: completely ignored the "Impale" which is mentioned in the Link. Sure, Bombs are good, but LB only gets them if he kills people, you know? Impale is, with Stampede, THE BEST ganking tool in the game.
LB is third in S4 Duel Winrate! 55% Winrate. What are you talking about him being so weak? He has Shove-on-Block which is a ridiculous good move just from turtling... Get a GB from it for instant Impale into Wall Splat into massive Damage...

Statement that Assassins have UB's and CC like Heavies is false. Orochi (as you mentioned) and PK do not have UB's nor CC. Zerker just got his UB with the rework. Glad and Shaman UB's are as slow as every UB is.

Btw Assassins have decaying guard (1000 / 700 / 500ms). When they change guard they have to wait for it to decay, until then they cannot dodge. Did you know that? Try dodge-rolling with an Assassin in a fight when someone else throws a feat at you... ;)

Orochi and pk both have unblockables on there deflects

Alustar.
04-10-2018, 04:47 PM
Orochi and pk both have unblockables on there deflects
That's deterrent than having unlockables in convos or at will from neutral. The unblockables from a deflect proc can't really be used as an argument that assassins have unblockables.
Currently the only two assassins with unblockables are shaman and berserker

BarbeQMichael
04-10-2018, 05:02 PM
Currently the only two assassins with unblockables are shaman and berserker

I'm fairly sure that gladiator has a metric ton of different unblockables, and shinobi has the ub kick.

Alustar.
04-10-2018, 06:14 PM
I'm fairly sure that gladiator has a metric ton of different unblockables, and shinobi has the ub kick.

Not sure how I forgot about gladiator. However, the kick is not really an attack so much as it is a control, and really doesn't count, as most control maneuvered are by nature unlockable

Illyrian_King
04-10-2018, 07:06 PM
Shinobi: 53% Winrate. On Par with Shugoki, a Heavy. Argument - denied.
LB in Dominion: completely ignored the "Impale" which is mentioned in the Link. Sure, Bombs are good, but LB only gets them if he kills people, you know? Impale is, with Stampede, THE BEST ganking tool in the game.
LB is third in S4 Duel Winrate! 55% Winrate. What are you talking about him being so weak? He has Shove-on-Block which is a ridiculous good move just from turtling... Get a GB from it for instant Impale into Wall Splat into massive Damage...

Statement that Assassins have UB's and CC like Heavies is false. Orochi (as you mentioned) and PK do not have UB's nor CC. Zerker just got his UB with the rework. Glad and Shaman UB's are as slow as every UB is.

Btw Assassins have decaying guard (1000 / 700 / 500ms). When they change guard they have to wait for it to decay, until then they cannot dodge. Did you know that? Try dodge-rolling with an Assassin in a fight when someone else throws a feat at you... ;)

I never said, Shinobi is top tier, but he is good at least ... around A-B tier same with Ogre.

In top tier the Assassins are dominating obviously (except of Conq of course :rolleyes:)

Orochi is trash tier ... the only trash from the Assassins but he has unblockable on deflect



Hmm, I see in video the three most easiest and OP chars, so maybe problem not in the assassins? I mean, Zerc are just too powerful after rework, their were strong enough before it. Shaman just stupid quintessence of all game mechanics. So this video just prove that Shaman and Zerc need nerf. Gladiator, on the other hand, hard if you don't know what to do with him. I see enough players on heavy and hybrids who can crush me playing Glad. Kenseis could even destroy Shamans, I tried myself. So, what the point?

Many top players main gladtior, because he has very safe guarnteed damage with his zone and toe collector after every light.

But of course, it's not impossible to beat him.



Well, you wrong here. I started play on LB couple days ago, and I could say in Dominion he is very useful. I don't have statistic like Charmz, but his light are huge thing, sure you can hold block on top, but if you are Assassin...it would vanish to faaast, and than you are almost unable to react. Push up, stun moves. And above all, on LB I remembred better days, when I could stand agins three, showing them hell.
And what about Raider. His feint zone-to-top are super fast, and you'll never know what it will be, top, or zone. So raider spaming this randomly in teamfight are waaay better than assassins

Yes on 4vs4 he is good indeed, but he sucks in Duel against every player, that doesn't fall for shove anymore. You know I main LB since launch, so I know what I am talking about when it comes to my boiii ^^

And btw do you really complain about his minimum range top light as an Assassin with that insane back dodge and fast "jump-in-attacks" ?
His side lights are total trash and telegraphed.

I don't know too much about Raider, but enough to say, that he is average and far away from top tier.



When fighting assassins i feel like Marv fighting frodo in sin city

This describes it pretty well ^^



Orochi and pk both have unblockables on there deflects

As I said :cool:



That's deterrent than having unlockables in convos or at will from neutral. The unblockables from a deflect proc can't really be used as an argument that assassins have unblockables.
Currently the only two assassins with unblockables are shaman and berserker

Wrong. What about Zerker and Shinobi?
If you consider Hybrid Cent also as part Assassin, then also him.

ThyDupont
04-10-2018, 10:53 PM
Shinobi: 53% Winrate. On Par with Shugoki, a Heavy. Argument - denied.
LB in Dominion: completely ignored the "Impale" which is mentioned in the Link. Sure, Bombs are good, but LB only gets them if he kills people, you know? Impale is, with Stampede, THE BEST ganking tool in the game.
LB is third in S4 Duel Winrate! 55% Winrate. What are you talking about him being so weak? He has Shove-on-Block which is a ridiculous good move just from turtling... Get a GB from it for instant Impale into Wall Splat into massive Damage...

Statement that Assassins have UB's and CC like Heavies is false. Orochi (as you mentioned) and PK do not have UB's nor CC. Zerker just got his UB with the rework. Glad and Shaman UB's are as slow as every UB is.

Btw Assassins have decaying guard (1000 / 700 / 500ms). When they change guard they have to wait for it to decay, until then they cannot dodge. Did you know that? Try dodge-rolling with an Assassin in a fight when someone else throws a feat at you... ;)

The for honor devs have already said that they dont balance the game around winrates because there are so many different things to consider. Shinobi and Shugoki have the same winrate the only problem is that Shugokis winrate is ONLY because of his passive hyperarmor and his extreme turtle playstyle that always makes rounds last for atleast of 2 minutes. Ubi themselves have said that attacks suck as lb's shove on block and Shugoki's passive hyperarmor are anoying to fight against and that they are looking to change lb and Shugo's playstyles. Patience/turtleing wins fights but it sure as hell dont make them fun

UbiJurassic
04-10-2018, 11:48 PM
I'll certainly look to raise your concerns to the team, Illyrian_King.

We know there are several annoying things about assassins that continue to frustrate players. One such thing is how safe it is for them to back dodge out of a fight. The team is looking to address that with a global back dodge rule that we should be looking to talk about in more detail very soon.

Something else to keep in mind is that reworks for the original heroes are still in progress. While I can't guarantee they will look to address every concern regarding assassins, the team is aware of the some of the larger pain points for players and may look to address them via rework or a major balance update. Adjacently the same can be said for some of the heavier heroes, who have shown areas in which they are under performing or could use tweaks to their kit to increase their viability. As we get closer to the next season, we'll likely have more details to share regarding reworks. At this time, however, there's nothing new to convey regarding them.

Illyrian_King
04-10-2018, 11:52 PM
I'll certainly look to raise your concerns to the team, Illyrian_King.

We know there are several annoying things about assassins that continue to frustrate players. One such thing is how safe it is for them to back dodge out of a fight. The team is looking to address that with a global back dodge rule that we should be looking to talk about in more detail very soon.

Something else to keep in mind is that reworks for the original heroes are still in progress. While I can't guarantee they will look to address every concern regarding assassins, the team is aware of the some of the larger pain points for players and may look to address them via rework or a major balance update. Adjacently the same can be said for some of the heavier heroes, who have shown areas in which they are under performing or could use tweaks to their kit to increase their viability. As we get closer to the next season, we'll likely have more details to share regarding reworks. At this time, however, there's nothing new to convey regarding them.

Thanks!

I just hope, that the devs will find creative ways to rework Heroes without making them similar to each other.

Charmzzz
04-11-2018, 09:14 AM
I never said, Shinobi is top tier, but he is good at least ... around A-B tier same with Ogre.

In top tier the Assassins are dominating obviously (except of Conq of course :rolleyes:)

Orochi is trash tier ... the only trash from the Assassins but he has unblockable on deflect

Many top players main gladtior, because he has very safe guarnteed damage with his zone and toe collector after every light.

But of course, it's not impossible to beat him.

Yes on 4vs4 he is good indeed, but he sucks in Duel against every player, that doesn't fall for shove anymore. You know I main LB since launch, so I know what I am talking about when it comes to my boiii ^^

I don't know too much about Raider, but enough to say, that he is average and far away from top tier.



Oh boy, backpaddling alot... You said Shinobi is "performing pretty well with his safe double dodge safe kick and fast lights". I didn't say that you said he is Top Tier either... But he is, concerning Winrate, below your beloved and "UP" Lawbringer in Duel and faaar below him in Dominion. This discussion is revolving around meta and actually it is LB-Raider Meta in Dominion. If a playstyle is boring but effective is not relevant in a meta discussion. Ask any PK player like me and they will tell you that cheesing (Zone and Lights only) are super boring, just as Shove-on-Block and Bomb spam is... I want more options just like you.

Gladiator: 50% Winrate in S4 in the Top 2.5% Bracket. WTF are you talking about!? He is mediocre at best. Try him, please, for gods sake, then come back and tell us how easy it is. Or Duel me. Charmzzz - PC - Europe.

LB is boring, as I mentioned above, because he relies on Shove-on-Block to get damage in. Still, it is very effective as you can see in the Duel Winrate S4 (55% Winrate - 3rd place). So he is good in the Top 2.5% Bracket. If you are not good with him - l2p issue, sorry.

Raider is still the 2nd best pick in Dominion due to his Stampede Charge and wide arc unblockable (and unparryable if not locked on you) Zone.

SpaceJim12
04-11-2018, 10:56 AM
Yes on 4vs4 he is good indeed, but he sucks in Duel against every player, that doesn't fall for shove anymore. You know I main LB since launch, so I know what I am talking about when it comes to my boiii ^^
And btw do you really complain about his minimum range top light as an Assassin with that insane back dodge and fast "jump-in-attacks" ?
His side lights are total trash and telegraphed.

My teammates both have high rep on LB and feel just fine in duel. Yesterday I could deal with two LBs 19 and 17 rep level. I have mine on lvl 17, without rep, witout gear. But all the time I met this two they can only won cause of better dmg and too quick revenge gain. So, I don't know what problems you have with this char, but I could play with him good enough. Still need to learn some move, but still ok even in 1 vs. X

I agree, that game need more diversity but that's why I try new chars again and again. And still, diversity is your playstyle in some ways. Playstyle, is how you choose to play. Me, for example, is ok to use different moves, different tactics. I know spam one most safe move are more profitable, but where fun in it? A lot people on this forum think, that that's ok to run from a fight, even if your teammate in gunksquad situation. For me it's cowardly loosing mind, cause it's just game and I better loose like a man, than win like a rat. For me, I don't want LB will be rework next, cause for now I enjoy him in current state. You say all chars feel the same now, I'm not agree. On LB I can easily stand against 3 and 4 opponents. And I couldn't do it on Glad and Orochi. And even more, I think we need lag compensation first, than make reworks, cause on Kensei I realised that a lot of "balance issues" are in real are "lag issues".

Illyrian_King
04-11-2018, 11:56 AM
Oh boy, backpaddling alot... You said Shinobi is "performing pretty well with his safe double dodge safe kick and fast lights". I didn't say that you said he is Top Tier either... But he is, concerning Winrate, below your beloved and "UP" Lawbringer in Duel and faaar below him in Dominion. This discussion is revolving around meta and actually it is LB-Raider Meta in Dominion. If a playstyle is boring but effective is not relevant in a meta discussion. Ask any PK player like me and they will tell you that cheesing (Zone and Lights only) are super boring, just as Shove-on-Block and Bomb spam is... I want more options just like you.

Gladiator: 50% Winrate in S4 in the Top 2.5% Bracket. WTF are you talking about!? He is mediocre at best. Try him, please, for gods sake, then come back and tell us how easy it is. Or Duel me. Charmzzz - PC - Europe.

LB is boring, as I mentioned above, because he relies on Shove-on-Block to get damage in. Still, it is very effective as you can see in the Duel Winrate S4 (55% Winrate - 3rd place). So he is good in the Top 2.5% Bracket. If you are not good with him - l2p issue, sorry.

Raider is still the 2nd best pick in Dominion due to his Stampede Charge and wide arc unblockable (and unparryable if not locked on you) Zone.

Performing pretty well means being around A-B tier ... otherwise i would have said "excelling" or "overpowered".

The main problem with LB is his block shove thing. If you take that away, then LB is almost naked. Me personally, I play him agressively and don't block shove every time possible for fun sake.
Other players don't have a problem with abusing the block shove, and that makes that win-ratio in the top 2,5%. Not his overall strenght, but just turtling.
I am asking to givr him overall new and unique tools. The devs even called it "annoying" so this won't be in the game for any long now. But taking this away would need to give him a lot for compensation.

I play Glad sometimes, and my win-ratio is around 70%
Just lool at his kit with all that unblockables, CC, high damage, deflect, fast lights, etc.
His kit is brilliant with common Assassin healthpool.
Mid-tier is far away from truth!
Solid A-tier instead!

I don't have much experience playing Raider, but when I fight against him, i can't remember when he actually hit me with his "super-zone" thr last time ... must be a while now.
The only thing he has is his stampede charge of course and his feint into head tip.
Same as LB, he is a 1-2 trick pony, while Assassins mostly have pretty complete kits.
A thing you can't deny.




My teammates both have high rep on LB and feel just fine in duel. Yesterday I could deal with two LBs 19 and 17 rep level. I have mine on lvl 17, without rep, witout gear. But all the time I met this two they can only won cause of better dmg and too quick revenge gain. So, I don't know what problems you have with this char, but I could play with him good enough. Still need to learn some move, but still ok even in 1 vs. X

I agree, that game need more diversity but that's why I try new chars again and again. And still, diversity is your playstyle in some ways. Playstyle, is how you choose to play. Me, for example, is ok to use different moves, different tactics. I know spam one most safe move are more profitable, but where fun in it? A lot people on this forum think, that that's ok to run from a fight, even if your teammate in gunksquad situation. For me it's cowardly loosing mind, cause it's just game and I better loose like a man, than win like a rat. For me, I don't want LB will be rework next, cause for now I enjoy him in current state. You say all chars feel the same now, I'm not agree. On LB I can easily stand against 3 and 4 opponents. And I couldn't do it on Glad and Orochi. And even more, I think we need lag compensation first, than make reworks, cause on Kensei I realised that a lot of "balance issues" are in real are "lag issues".

I don't know much about your personal experience with him, but if this is the case, tell me how you fight a player whom:
You can not shove (to slow and even eat a dodge attack for it)
Parries or blocks all attacks (beside 1-2 lights out of 10)
Doesn't fall for the running impale charge/gb mindgame

If these 3 things don't work, you are naked with LB! And this why LB mains turtle in in top tier, because it's the last viable piece of his kit left.

Also "standing against 4 players" ... maybe standing, but not winning!
If there doesn't come any team mate(s) across, you are lost!
Especially since there is so much unblockables and CC in the game, you just get shredded alone. Also that extra 30HP don't make a huge differenece ^^

Charmzzz
04-11-2018, 12:18 PM
Performing pretty well means being around A-B tier ... otherwise i would have said "excelling" or "overpowered".

The main problem with LB is his block shove thing. If you take that away, then LB is almost naked. Me personally, I play him agressively and don't block shove every time possible for fun sake.
Other players don't have a problem with abusing the block shove, and that makes that win-ratio in the top 2,5%. Not his overall strenght, but just turtling.
I am asking to givr him overall new and unique tools. The devs even called it "annoying" so this won't be in the game for any long now. But taking this away would need to give him a lot for compensation.

I play Glad sometimes, and my win-ratio is around 70%
Just lool at his kit with all that unblockables, CC, high damage, deflect, fast lights, etc.
His kit is brilliant with common Assassin healthpool.
Mid-tier is far away from truth!
Solid A-tier instead!

I don't have much experience playing Raider, but when I fight against him, i can't remember when he actually hit me with his "super-zone" thr last time ... must be a while now.
The only thing he has is his stampede charge of course and his feint into head tip.
Same as LB, he is a 1-2 trick pony, while Assassins mostly have pretty complete kits.
A thing you can't deny.





I don't know much about your personal experience with him, but if this is the case, tell me how you fight a player whom:
You can not shove (to slow and even eat a dodge attack for it)
Parries or blocks all attacks (beside 1-2 lights out of 10)
Doesn't fall for the running impale charge/gb mindgame

If these 3 things don't work, you are naked with LB! And this why LB mains turtle in in top tier, because it's the last viable piece of his kit left.

Also "standing against 4 players" ... maybe standing, but not winning!
If there doesn't come any team mate(s) across, you are lost!
Especially since there is so much unblockables and CC in the game, you just get shredded alone. Also that extra 30HP don't make a huge differenece ^^

Hm, should I link your FH Tracker Profile? You are NOWHERE EVEN NEAR 70% Winrate on Glad... More like 40% and 2 hours played on him. And don't come up with "old Data" because mine is updating. So please, stop this nonsense...

Your Lawbringer Winrate is a tiny bit over 60%. Not enough I guess... Are you serious with your statements? Like for real? Again, I understand that it is boring as LB to Shove-on-Block, but it is still super effective. Do you have any idea how boring it is to play PK or Warden? Same thing, 2 viable moves. That's how the OG cast is. And no, Assassins do NOT have complete kits overall. Only Gladiator (50% Winrate in Top 2.5%) and Shaman (56% Winrate in Top 2.5%, but that Data is including her release state without nerfs!!!) could be called having "complete" kits. The rest of the Assassins is as mediocre when it comes to options as everybody else.

Your explanation of how difficult it is to open up a turtle is true for every other Character with no unblockable mixup from neutral. You get that? Everybody has these problems, ESPECIALLY Assassins who mostly have no unblockable from neutral. Compare that to your Lawbringer who at least has Dodge - Shove to force a reaction.

How come the LB is Top 3 in Duel among the Top 2.5% Players if his kit is so bad? Explain please. Your argumentation should be backed up by all Top 5 Duel spots in S4 taken by Assassins. But it wasn't like this. Why?

And who can win in a 1v4? Assassins? Haha, sure Bro... Especially Shin and Glad have a very hard time in any 1vX situation due to a very short guard time. 30HP extra do make a huge difference in a Duel btw.

So much nonsense in your posts, sorry. Please, back up your arguments by real facts, not feelings and bias.

Edit: Forgot the recently reworked and a bit overbuffed Zerker in my list of Assassins with complete kits. But then we have to add in Conq, Kensei and HIghlander having complete kits, too. And no, Centurion is not an Assassin because he has no decaying Guard. He is a hybrid Assassin because he is a straightforward glasscannon: low health, high damage potential, normal mobility.

kanuzira
04-11-2018, 12:23 PM
Oh boy, backpaddling alot... You said Shinobi is "performing pretty well with his safe double dodge safe kick and fast lights". I didn't say that you said he is Top Tier either... But he is, concerning Winrate, below your beloved and "UP" Lawbringer in Duel and faaar below him in Dominion. This discussion is revolving around meta and actually it is LB-Raider Meta in Dominion. If a playstyle is boring but effective is not relevant in a meta discussion. Ask any PK player like me and they will tell you that cheesing (Zone and Lights only) are super boring, just as Shove-on-Block and Bomb spam is... I want more options just like you.

Gladiator: 50% Winrate in S4 in the Top 2.5% Bracket. WTF are you talking about!? He is mediocre at best. Try him, please, for gods sake, then come back and tell us how easy it is. Or Duel me. Charmzzz - PC - Europe.

LB is boring, as I mentioned above, because he relies on Shove-on-Block to get damage in. Still, it is very effective as you can see in the Duel Winrate S4 (55% Winrate - 3rd place). So he is good in the Top 2.5% Bracket. If you are not good with him - l2p issue, sorry.

Raider is still the 2nd best pick in Dominion due to his Stampede Charge and wide arc unblockable (and unparryable if not locked on you) Zone.

Block shove isnt as usefull as you make it out to be. I play against people who can litterly dodge everything and get the damage in. You have no other tricks to get your damage in. So i think he should get a rework. Reworks do not mean buff all time. More things mean you get to lure him into things and get your things off, like with kensei. If you lure him into the jumping side heavy you get a free parry.

BarbeQMichael
04-11-2018, 12:34 PM
Block shove isnt as usefull as you make it out to be. I play against people who can litterly dodge everything and get the damage in. You have no other tricks to get your damage in. So i think he should get a rework. Reworks do not mean buff all time. More things mean you get to lure him into things and get your things off, like with kensei. If you lure him into the jumping side heavy you get a free parry.

Block shove indeed isn't very effective, but, it along with lawbringers higher hp pool can prolong the fight considerably thus giving lb a slow win. He isn't good or powerful hero (feats are strong tho in gank fights), but he can drag the fight long enough to make him win more, according to devs.

Charmzzz
04-11-2018, 12:49 PM
Block shove isnt as usefull as you make it out to be. I play against people who can litterly dodge everything and get the damage in. You have no other tricks to get your damage in. So i think he should get a rework. Reworks do not mean buff all time. More things mean you get to lure him into things and get your things off, like with kensei. If you lure him into the jumping side heavy you get a free parry.

It isn't? Sure it is. How else does LB get 3rd place in Duel among the Top 2.5% of Players in S4? Please, read this first: https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-gb/news-community/detail.aspx?c=tcm:154-320343-16&ct=tcm:154-76770-32

I am completely with you according reworks, every OG Character should get one comparable to the recent Zerker / Conq / Kensei reworks! I never said that LB should not get one, only that he is one of the best Characters from the OG Cast before reworks, so others should be priority first (Valk, Orochi, etc).

Alustar.
04-11-2018, 01:16 PM
Shove on block is literally the easiest way to win with lawbringer, you cannot dodge out of it. If you're argument is "dodge attacks beat it" you are clearly not using it right. I may not have much excellence running him, but I have PLENTY of experience fighting against turtle lawbros who only rely on that. The only real counter for it is stuns, unblockables and crowd control. As they force the lawbringer to do something other than just block.

Illyrian_King
04-11-2018, 01:18 PM
Hm, should I link your FH Tracker Profile? You are NOWHERE EVEN NEAR 70% Winrate on Glad... More like 40% and 2 hours played on him. And don't come up with "old Data" because mine is updating. So please, stop this nonsense...

Your Lawbringer Winrate is a tiny bit over 60%. Not enough I guess... Are you serious with your statements? Like for real? Again, I understand that it is boring as LB to Shove-on-Block, but it is still super effective. Do you have any idea how boring it is to play PK or Warden? Same thing, 2 viable moves. That's how the OG cast is. And no, Assassins do NOT have complete kits overall. Only Gladiator (50% Winrate in Top 2.5%) and Shaman (56% Winrate in Top 2.5%, but that Data is including her release state without nerfs!!!) could be called having "complete" kits. The rest of the Assassins is as mediocre when it comes to options as everybody else.

Your explanation of how difficult it is to open up a turtle is true for every other Character with no unblockable mixup from neutral. You get that? Everybody has these problems, ESPECIALLY Assassins who mostly have no unblockable from neutral. Compare that to your Lawbringer who at least has Dodge - Shove to force a reaction.

How come the LB is Top 3 in Duel among the Top 2.5% Players if his kit is so bad? Explain please. Your argumentation should be backed up by all Top 5 Duel spots in S4 taken by Assassins. But it wasn't like this. Why?

And who can win in a 1v4? Assassins? Haha, sure Bro... Especially Shin and Glad have a very hard time in any 1vX situation due to a very short guard time. 30HP extra do make a huge difference in a Duel btw.

So much nonsense in your posts, sorry. Please, back up your arguments by real facts, not feelings and bias.

Edit: Forgot the recently reworked and a bit overbuffed Zerker in my list of Assassins with complete kits. But then we have to add in Conq, Kensei and HIghlander having complete kits, too. And no, Centurion is not an Assassin because he has no decaying Guard. He is a hybrid Assassin because he is a straightforward glasscannon: low health, high damage potential, normal mobility.

Hahaha feel free to do so ^^

These 40% also content the pretty learning phase, due only playing 2 hrs, so you are using this to pull Glad through the dust.
Explain me, in which way his kit isn't brilliant? What does he lack in?

But the 60% with LB is because as you can see from my profile, I main him since launch. And it's because I know his kit like 100%
And every time I face a player, who simply doesn't fall for the points I mentioned, he is useless.

Also "forcing" a reaction with my dodge shove from neutral, mostly leads into getting raped by dodge attacks. LB has nothing from neutral that is efficient, that's why you see him trying to guardbreak all the time.

Your argumentation is useless.

Look at the Conq with his fast shieldbash from dodge ... he has a very offensive tool and relies A LOT on it WHILE HAVING A FULL BLOCK STANCE
Why?
Because he can be offensive!
--> Lawbringer has not enough to be offensive, means the dodge shove and everything else from neutral is useless in top tier.

Need further explaination?

Now coming back to Shin and Glad: Shin has his double dodge and ranged stuff, for going on distance and avoiding every 1vsX situation when he is alone :rolleyes:
Of course Glad can not hold stand in ganks, like LB for example, but the difference isn't really big, when you get love from all directions and get bashed around.

SpaceJim12
04-11-2018, 01:40 PM
I don't know much about your personal experience with him, but if this is the case, tell me how you fight a player whom:
You can not shove (to slow and even eat a dodge attack for it)
Parries or blocks all attacks (beside 1-2 lights out of 10)
Doesn't fall for the running impale charge/gb mindgame

If these 3 things don't work, you are naked with LB! And this why LB mains turtle in in top tier, because it's the last viable piece of his kit left.

Well, I play on LB like...4 hour at all. How could you wait so spicific details of combat from me?=)
First of all, I met people who block or parry everything not so often. And I again should say it's a huge lag issues, cause I never believe people could perfectly react on everything. On PC it's could be cheats as well. But in normal conditions, I never saw people who can block or parry everything.
And I don't play duels, so my experience came from Dominion 4v4.

Alustar.
04-11-2018, 01:45 PM
Well, I play on LB like...4 hour at all. How could you wait so spicific details of combat from me?=)
First of all, I met people who block or parry everything not so often. And I again should say it's a huge lag issues, cause I never believe people could perfectly react on everything. On PC it's could be cheats as well. But in normal conditions, I never saw people who can block or parry everything.
And I don't play duels, so my experience came from Dominion 4v4.

Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I see it frequently which leads me to believe you just aren't in a high enough MMR for you to see these types of players.

SpaceJim12
04-11-2018, 01:51 PM
I didn't say I never saw ppl who block/parry everything. I said, that I do not believe it's possible without lags or cheats.
Maybe in duels situation looks different, where two opponents haven't distract by some outer factors, but in 4v4 it's almost impossible.

Alustar.
04-11-2018, 01:56 PM
That is horribly blind, egotistical and dismissive of the amount of players that can block and parry consistently. I'm going to go ahead and say that this mentality is indicative of immaturity. As such, I'm fine having any kind of intelligent discourse with you, as your view is as follows, : "any player who can outperform me within the confines of the games mechanics are nothing more than lucky cheaters." And this no amount of debate is worth it from my seat. Poor form, dude, poor form.

Charmzzz
04-11-2018, 01:57 PM
Hahaha feel free to do so ^^

These 40% also content the pretty learning phase, due only playing 2 hrs, so you are using this to pull Glad through the dust.
Explain me, in which way his kit isn't brilliant? What does he lack in?

But the 60% with LB is because as you can see from my profile, I main him since launch. And it's because I know his kit like 100%
And every time I face a player, who simply doesn't fall for the points I mentioned, he is useless.

Also "forcing" a reaction with my dodge shove from neutral, mostly leads into getting raped by dodge attacks. LB has nothing from neutral that is efficient, that's why you see him trying to guardbreak all the time.

Your argumentation is useless.

Look at the Conq with his fast shieldbash from dodge ... he has a very offensive tool and relies A LOT on it WHILE HAVING A FULL BLOCK STANCE
Why?
Because he can be offensive!
--> Lawbringer has not enough to be offensive, means the dodge shove and everything else from neutral is useless in top tier.

Need further explaination?

Now coming back to Shin and Glad: Shin has his double dodge and ranged stuff, for going on distance and avoiding every 1vsX situation when he is alone :rolleyes:
Of course Glad can not hold stand in ganks, like LB for example, but the difference isn't really big, when you get love from all directions and get bashed around.

Bro, YOU tried to deliver an argument that Glad is soo good that you, playing him only occasionally, have a 70% Winrate on him. Which is simply a lie. A big one @40%. Cannot stop laughing about this, thanks man. Feel free to duel me on your 70% Winrate Glad anytime - Charmzzz - PC - Europe.

Glad has the worst Guard @500ms uptime. Any attack slower than 500ms is a threat if you are a very reactive player because your guard will be down when the attack hits if you reacted too early. That's a BIIIG disadvantage. Next thing: Toe Stab. If you learned to dodge it - Glad is open for free GB. Alright, his first Light is 500ms, but every chained Light is 600ms. Not that fast, eh? Now his dodge-attacks: complete bs. Block them for free GB on Glad. Dodge-bash is mediocre good as it does not guarantee any followup damage. Skewer is so slow, it is parried 90% of the time. Yes, his kit is okay-ish, but not as good as you try to make it. You can see that at a perfect 50% Winrate in S4 by Top Players...

You have your 60% Winrate because LB is better than most of the OG cast. Shots fired.

Dodge-Shove has Hyperarmor Bro, Dodge-Attacks will lead to a trade in the worst case for your LB. Or do you Dodge-Shove and do nothing after? You can easily hit a Heavy on them if they Dodge-Attack you...

My argument is not useless, your "facts" are sadly only "fake news"... :D

Conq Shieldbash is better, yes. 500ms (as Warlord Headbutt) compared to 700ms on Dodge-Shove. But Conq SB does not have Hyperarmor, you can hit him out of it with a Light. Btw that is not the point of the discussion as you said "Assassin Meta" and now come up with another Heavy who has a "better" move in your opinion.

Shinobi is mediocre at best. B-Tier, maybe lower A-Tier. Avoiding fights does not let you win Matches. And yes, the difference IS big as Glad with 500ms Guard compared to a static-Guard Champ in any 1vX situation. If you don't know how big the difference is I come to the conclusion that you have little idea about the game in higher Matchmaking Ratings. Add and Duel me later...

Illyrian_King
04-11-2018, 02:51 PM
Bro, YOU tried to deliver an argument that Glad is 9soo good that you, playing him only occasionally, have a 70% Winrate on him. Which is simply a lie. A big one @40%. Cannot stop laughing about this, thanks man. Feel free to duel me on your 70% Winrate Glad anytime - Charmzzz - PC - Europe.

Glad has the worst Guard @500ms uptime. Any attack slower than 500ms is a threat if you are a very reactive player because your guard will be down when the attack hits if you reacted too early. That's a BIIIG disadvantage. Next thing: Toe Stab. If you learned to dodge it - Glad is open for free GB. Alright, his first Light is 500ms, but every chained Light is 600ms. Not that fast, eh? Now his dodge-attacks: complete bs. Block them for free GB on Glad. Dodge-bash is mediocre good as it does not guarantee any followup damage. Skewer is so slow, it is parried 90% of the time. Yes, his kit is okay-ish, but not as good as you try to make it. You can see that at a perfect 50% Winrate in S4 by Top Players...

You have your 60% Winrate because LB is better than most of the OG cast. Shots fired.

Dodge-Shove has Hyperarmor Bro, Dodge-Attacks will lead to a trade in the worst case for your LB. Or do you Dodge-Shove and do nothing after? You can easily hit a Heavy on them if they Dodge-Attack you...

My argument is not useless, your "facts" are sadly only "fake news"... :D

Conq Shieldbash is better, yes. 500ms (as Warlord Headbutt) compared to 700ms on Dodge-Shove. But Conq SB does not have Hyperarmor, you can hit him out of it with a Light. Btw that is not the point of the discussion as you said "Assassin Meta" and now come up with another Heavy who has a "better" move in your opinion.

Shinobi is mediocre at best. B-Tier, maybe lower A-Tier. Avoiding fights does not let you win Matches. And yes, the difference IS big as Glad with 500ms Guard compared to a static-Guard Champ in any 1vX situation. If you don't know how big the difference is I come to the conclusion that you have little idea about the game in higher Matchmaking Ratings. Add and Duel me later...

Yes you can dodge the toe stab ... theoretically ... but in reality it's a rare scenario and mostly it's just free damage bypassing all defences.

The 500ms seems to be his only disadvantage, but if you are only a bit experienced in this game, you know when to activate your guard on such slow attacks even regarding that a human needs around 200-300ms to react in average ... that shouldn't be an issue then ;)
Simple calculation: 200/300 +500 = 700/800ms

LB performs well in duels when fighting against noobs. But in late game he has nothing beside the block shove.
But arguing that his dodge shove has hyperarmour just shows that you really have no clue about him ^^
It almost never happens that you get dodge attacked in dodge block during the hyperamour phase.
Mostly you get hit when there is no armour and you even get interrupted --> no follow up from LB

Yes but you even admitted that the shield bash is better, but also here you don't get kicked out of the bash by a light.
You seem to lack drastically in experience basing your arguments on cases that happen so rarely.

My headline tells that it is about Assassins Meta, and explaining differences to heavies shows why it is like it is.

You are messing with my words dude ^^
I never said Shinobi should run away from fights.
I said his kit allows him attack from afar and dodge around players when they try to gank him. --> he is not meant to stand in the eye of the storm and block everything.

I am gonna add you in the evening.

Charmzzz
04-11-2018, 03:06 PM
Yes you can dodge the toe stab ... theoretically ... but in reality it's a rare scenario and mostly it's just free damage bypassing all defences.

The 500ms seems to be his only disadvantage, but if you are only a bit experienced in this game, you know when to activate your guard on such slow attacks even regarding that a human needs around 200-300ms to react in average ... that shouldn't be an issue then ;)
Simple calculation: 200/300 +500 = 700/800ms

LB performs well in duels when fighting against noobs. But in late game he has nothing beside the block shove.
But arguing that his dodge shove has hyperarmour just shows that you really have no clue about him ^^
It almost never happens that you get dodge attacked in dodge block during the hyperamour phase.
Mostly you get hit when there is no armour and you even get interrupted --> no follow up from LB

Yes but you even admitted that the shield bash is better, but also here you don't get kicked out of the bash by a light.
You seem to lack drastically in experience basing your arguments on cases that happen so rarely.

My headline tells that it is about Assassins Meta, and explaining differences to heavies shows why it is like it is.

You are messing with my words dude ^^
I never said Shinobi should run away from fights.
I said his kit allows him attack from afar and dodge around players when they try to gank him. --> he is not meant to stand in the eye of the storm and block everything.

I am gonna add you in the evening.

Alright, I have very little experience in the game. Just compare my FHTracker to yours:
https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/Charmzzz

Playtime is something around 850 hours. Playing since release. Playing in the Top 10% Bracket. But hey, I have no clue and lack experience. ;)

SpaceJim12
04-11-2018, 03:30 PM
I am gonna add you in the evening.


Alright, I have very little experience in the game. Just compare my FHTracker to yours:
https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/Charmzzz

Playtime is something around 850 hours. Playing since release. Playing in the Top 10% Bracket. But hey, I have no clue and lack experience.

Keep us in touch of your interact in game!

Arekonator
04-11-2018, 04:38 PM
Can we stop pretending how amazing tool block-shove is? We all know it might as well not exist when you face someone who is willing to roll away- And its not like LB got tools to pressure someone OOS either.

NinjaRonin85
04-11-2018, 05:48 PM
I find it funny that warlord this mean looking bulky mofo hits like a little girl, his 2 hit combo sucks his top light does almost as much damage as his top heavy.

Devils-_-legacy
04-11-2018, 06:44 PM
(while Assassins mostly have pretty complete kits.A thing you can't deny.)
imo the og roster assassins are pretty terrible in design compared to(dlc assassins/hybrids) Shaman has a complete kit by this i mean she has very good options, amazing ledge ability and cc on par with warlord.
Compare that to the design of pk and orochi. pk has got fast attacks(not very telegraphed) but very few options.
orochi has terrible combos(very telegraphed) good deflects to an extent can do well versus an aggressive opponent but a player turtling renders his kit useless.
I would honestly say the whole of the og cast is terrible in design I'm really hopeing they get the reworks right just a pain they have not updated us on them.

Charmzzz
04-14-2018, 02:05 PM
So, we did the Duels today. He took Gladiator all the time, I dodged and punished Toe Stabs and Zones. Not all of them, but enough to win very clearly (I think I dropped 1 or 2 Rounds over the 5-6 Matches we did). Took Warden, PK and Gladiator.

No diss for Illyrian, he was very nice during the Matches. Still, dodging Toe Stab and Zone is possible. Showed him. ;)

SpaceJim12
04-14-2018, 02:21 PM
No diss for Illyrian, he was very nice during the Matches. Still, dodging Toe Stab and Zone is possible. Showed him.

I think, it's still some lags issues. Sometimes I have matches that I really enjoy, when everything happend how planned, I can counter, attack and use all my moves in fight, and this fantastic. But sometimes you got matches where you can't do anything, ppl just see all your attacks, parry everything and you can't block or dodge anything from them. And on other hand I have matches where I parry every attack of the opponent and he can't block a single attack of mine. And this situations have nothing in common with players or chars rep points. So, I believe it's due to lags or big difference in ping.

Charmzzz
04-14-2018, 02:28 PM
I think, it's still some lags issues. Sometimes I have matches that I really enjoy, when everything happend how planned, I can counter, attack and use all my moves in fight, and this fantastic. But sometimes you got matches where you can't do anything, ppl just see all your attacks, parry everything and you can't block or dodge anything from them. And on other hand I have matches where I parry every attack of the opponent and he can't block a single attack of mine. And this situations have nothing in common with players or chars rep points. So, I believe it's due to lags or big difference in ping.

Don't think so, we had very responsive Matches. We are not far from each other (Germany - Austria). We also did Custom Matches which is P2P I think, Latency was probably lower than 50ms...

Illyrian_King
04-14-2018, 06:38 PM
So, we did the Duels today. He took Gladiator all the time, I dodged and punished Toe Stabs and Zones. Not all of them, but enough to win very clearly (I think I dropped 1 or 2 Rounds over the 5-6 Matches we did). Took Warden, PK and Gladiator.

No diss for Illyrian, he was very nice during the Matches. Still, dodging Toe Stab and Zone is possible. Showed him. ;)

He won indeed, but he also confirmed my statement. I knocked me down most with the Assassin classes PK and Glad.
My 2 kills i made, when he picked Warden.

My statement is still true, I am just not experienced enough with Glad.

Charmzzz
04-14-2018, 07:21 PM
He won indeed, but he also confirmed my statement. I knocked me down most with the Assassin classes PK and Glad.
My 2 kills i made, when he picked Warden.

My statement is still true, I am just not experienced enough with Glad.

Oh come on, the 2 kills you got were pretty close when I was on Warden. And one of the kills was my first round today. ^^

My statement still stands, Gladiator is, by far, not that hard to deal with. 500ms guard time is a pain, his zone and toe stab is dodgeable on reaction as I did on every Character vs your Glad. If it wasnt reactable at all you should have won those Matches when I was on slow Warden.

The fact that it was harder to defend against PK and another Glad just shows how lacking his defense is.

SpaceJim12
04-14-2018, 07:29 PM
Don't think so, we had very responsive Matches. We are not far from each other (Germany - Austria). We also did Custom Matches which is P2P I think, Latency was probably lower than 50ms...

I do not mean your current duel.=)
I mean reasons why people keep creating threads like this. Cause still so much (for me, at least) depends on lags or none of them in every single match.
In custom duels I have way different experince than in Dominion PvP.

BarbeQMichael
04-14-2018, 07:42 PM
He won indeed, but he also confirmed my statement. I knocked me down most with the Assassin classes PK and Glad.
My 2 kills i made, when he picked Warden.

My statement is still true, I am just not experienced enough with Glad.

This is not a surprise, as the toestab is practically guaranteed against normal heroes thanks to block stun and guard delay. Assassins can dodge much more easily, but regular guys get 300ms penaulty to dodge so with hitstun it is practically impossible to dodge it.

Charmzzz
04-14-2018, 07:47 PM
This is not a surprise, as the toestab is practically guaranteed against normal heroes thanks to block stun and guard delay. Assassins can dodge much more easily, but regular guys get 300ms penaulty to dodge so with hitstun it is practically impossible to dodge it.

WTF is going on. I have proven that I can beat a 70% Winrate (I doubt that though) Gladiator easily on a "normal" Character like Warden. Ignore facts, gj, I'm out of this now. Useless to discuss with you.

BarbeQMichael
04-14-2018, 07:56 PM
WTF is going on. I have proven that I can beat a 70% Winrate (I doubt that though) Gladiator easily on a "normal" Character like Warden. Ignore facts, gj, I'm out of this now. Useless to discuss with you.

I don't doubt that you can beat gladiator as you are about as good as me, I was talking about dodging the toestab. There are some game mechanics that make dodging harder for non-reflex guard heroes, so gladiator will land more toestabs to them due to mixups.

Illyrian_King
04-14-2018, 08:04 PM
WTF is going on. I have proven that I can beat a 70% Winrate (I doubt that though) Gladiator easily on a "normal" Character like Warden. Ignore facts, gj, I'm out of this now. Useless to discuss with you.

The only thing you proved man, is that you (rep85) can beat a rep me (rep33).

I used my glad and lost, but that doesn't mean he is bad. You even knocked me worst when you played Assassins.

This is very skill oriented and you insisted to do the duels and i accepted. You parried everything i threw out and you could have done that even easier if i used me telegraphed lawbringer instead.

Alustar.
04-14-2018, 09:06 PM
I can dodge my buddies toe stab with
my highlander. But go on, keep saying is next to impossible.
And the fact you even said "when used with mixups" does nothing to help your debate, as that is exactly what mixups are designed to do, help you land moves within your kit that are harder to connect from neutral. The only time the toe stab is really difficult to dodge is when you are OOS. Or when a skilled gladiator baits me into a pattern and I fall for it.

Charmzzz
04-15-2018, 06:14 PM
The only thing you proved man, is that you (rep85) can beat a rep me (rep33).

I used my glad and lost, but that doesn't mean he is bad. You even knocked me worst when you played Assassins.

This is very skill oriented and you insisted to do the duels and i accepted. You parried everything i threw out and you could have done that even easier if i used me telegraphed lawbringer instead.

Oh no Bro, you said that you have a 70% Winrate on Gladiator which you rarely play cause he is so strong. And his kit is so good etc.

I have proved you wrong on Toe Stab and Zone being OP. Admit it or make yourself even more a clown.