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LASERsightsBoi
04-09-2018, 11:40 PM
Peacekeeper - ALL seasons S or A tier
Warden - eat **** tier last season

If u cant balance game for all heroes, can you freaking nerf OP heroes sometimes?

Tirik22x
04-10-2018, 12:07 AM
Peacekeeper - ALL seasons S or A tier
Warden - eat **** tier last season

If u cant balance game for all heroes, can you freaking nerf OP heroes sometimes?

The only hero that needs nerfed is Shaman. Everyone (almost) else needs brought up to A tier.

Armuun_74
04-10-2018, 12:55 AM
these stuid ****s at ubi couldnt balance a damn check book.Te continue to buff the one that are considered OP like....um....Shaman,Kensei,and lets not forget the PK and Conq. If you so called devs at Ubi need some help with these issues ill make a post that maybe you see,but i doubt it https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bk6y7jw2ujLrjm0Zzbb4aEZUV13gyGoy-IobrkfNgaY/edit#gid=0

*note* Im not taking credit for this cause it's not of my design.Tool applications only

LASERsightsBoi
04-10-2018, 01:48 AM
great list, I think its close to reality

Tirik22x
04-10-2018, 01:58 AM
(Will edit later)

ChampionRuby50g
04-10-2018, 02:09 AM
these stuid ****s at ubi couldnt balance a damn check book.Te continue to buff the one that are considered OP like....um....Shaman,Kensei,and lets not forget the PK and Conq. If you so called devs at Ubi need some help with these issues ill make a post that maybe you see,but i doubt it https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bk6y7jw2ujLrjm0Zzbb4aEZUV13gyGoy-IobrkfNgaY/edit#gid=0

*note* Im not taking credit for this cause it's not of my design.Tool applications only

For the record, Iím no fan of Ubisoft at the moment, but you are so blatantly wrong it hurts. Iíll say itís also pretty hypocritical to call them stupid, but then proceed to write your post like a 5 year old.

They have never buffed Shaman since she became available, only nerfed at least twice. They have never buffed PK, but have continuously nerfed her since Season 1. Kensei and Conq used to be underpowered and the worst heroes in the cast, received one rework that buffed them up. You say continue to buff ones that are considered OP, which implys that you believed Conq/Kensei to be OP before their reworks, couple that with you thinking Shaman and PK are receiving constant buffs makes me believe you are simply deluded about the game, and are just looking for something to complain about.

HazelrahFirefly
04-10-2018, 02:46 AM
To say that Shaman needs nerfing only shows that you dont know how to fight them. I don't think they're that bad, not even in my top five of difficult opponents.

My point however is actually that difficulty is subjective. The heroes I have most trouble with the majority consider fine, meanwhile I find the PK, Glad, Berserker, and Shaman to be balanced.

Tirik22x
04-10-2018, 03:07 AM
To say that Shaman needs nerfing only shows that you dont know how to fight them. I don't think they're that bad, not even in my top five of difficult opponents.

My point however is actually that difficulty is subjective. The heroes I have most trouble with the majority consider fine, meanwhile I find the PK, Glad, Berserker, and Shaman to be balanced.

So you find a character with max range, speed, agility, unblockables, and hits that take 50% of your life, AND has a self heal, to be balanced? Oh, all while doing it with a primitive hatchet, ax and HER TEETH...

Comon now...

Alustar.
04-10-2018, 03:17 AM
There is a certain point that the devs actually need to stop listening to complaints about balance from the community. They can tweak characters everything's someone throws a fit, and all that's going to happen is the game will become a round robin of weeks mad at what hero because they can't read the movements.
Example: I hate musha with a purple painted pain, but that doesn't mean I you ranting and raving anytime I lose to one and flame the devs for even thinking of the idea.
Social experiment time, go to the search bar on the forum and type in "tier list" and tell me of these lists are at a all identical. No? Didn't freaking think so. Next go look at the names of the ones posting them. Any of them forum mods or devs? No? Then that means these tier lists are made exclusively by players who have bias. Which means they are on no way indicative of a hero being OP. If this game seeds any further nerfs, it's going to go the way of Battleborn, if it already hasn't.
Stop trying to get stuff nerfed because you can't be ****ed to learn and adapt. The behavior displayed by some of you people on the forums is precisely the reason this game has the issues it does.

Tirik22x
04-10-2018, 04:51 AM
There is a certain point that the devs actually need to stop listening to complaints about balance from the community. They can tweak characters everything's someone throws a fit, and all that's going to happen is the game will become a round robin of weeks mad at what hero because they can't read the movements.
Example: I hate musha with a purple painted pain, but that doesn't mean I you ranting and raving anytime I lose to one and flame the devs for even thinking of the idea.
Social experiment time, go to the search bar on the forum and type in "tier list" and tell me of these lists are at a all identical. No? Didn't freaking think so. Next go look at the names of the ones posting them. Any of them forum mods or devs? No? Then that means these tier lists are made exclusively by players who have bias. Which means they are on no way indicative of a hero being OP. If this game seeds any further nerfs, it's going to go the way of Battleborn, if it already hasn't.
Stop trying to get stuff nerfed because you can't be ****ed to learn and adapt. The behavior displayed by some of you people on the forums is precisely the reason this game has the issues it does.

Yea, nah... thatís not how it works.

While the lists will not be the same, patterns emerge. Especially when you pay attention to actually skilled players.

We are the ones playing/fighting... we know what is OP and what is not.

When a hero has incredible damage, incredible range, a self heal, incredible speed... it doesnít take a rocket surgeon to figure out that thatís not fair. Give me a break...

(Off topic, did you ever play Age of Conan?)

Knight_Raime
04-10-2018, 10:25 AM
So you find a character with max range, speed, agility, unblockables, and hits that take 50% of your life, AND has a self heal, to be balanced? Oh, all while doing it with a primitive hatchet, ax and HER TEETH...

Comon now...

Shaman was designed to be a hero that gets in on someone reliably. In order for this to happen she had to be stacked with options. If she only had one or 2 reliable ways of getting in she wouldn't be meeting her design idea. She's balanced around the fact that all of her mix ups if read properly have a hard punish that nearly everyone in the cast can do. That and her damage profile is actually just average. Her bite while it "can" do 50 damage often never does. because that 50 damage is from bleed+ bite. If you bleed someone and then bite immediately you end up with only like 30 some damage.

EDIT: I had it better explained to me. The bite consumes the bleed damage you would have done to total it to 50. versus if you let the person bleed till the last second and then bite it still puts the bite at 50 to meet that mark. Either way even though the actual bite damage can vary it's always going to equal 50 due to the way it works. So. disregard that part of my post. everything else is fine.

Knight_Raime
04-10-2018, 10:27 AM
Peacekeeper - ALL seasons S or A tier
Warden - eat **** tier last season

If u cant balance game for all heroes, can you freaking nerf OP heroes sometimes?

They've nerfed "op" heros plenty of times. PK herself has received a handful of nerfs over for honors life span. She's still incredibly strong yes. But it's literally only because of her zone option select. Without that she'd easily be low A tier. Maybe even high B tier.

Alustar.
04-10-2018, 12:15 PM
Yea, nah... thatís not how it works.

While the lists will not be the same, patterns emerge. Especially when you pay attention to actually skilled players.

We are the ones playing/fighting... we know what is OP and what is not.

When a hero has incredible damage, incredible range, a self heal, incredible speed... it doesnít take a rocket surgeon to figure out that thatís not fair. Give me a break...

(Off topic, did you ever play Age of Conan?)

The only correct and accurate thing you said was "we are the ones posting the game." Because yes, we are in fact playing the game.
Go look up the definition for personal bias and come back to this argument. Just because you think something as OP, doesn't qualify it as such. There are no OP characters is for honor, as damn near everything has a counter or a way out. The thing people miss is that this game has what are called "skill checks" meaning to compete at top tier ranked play you need to pass these skill checks. Just because you can't out perform everyone in every match, or the same hero seems to hand you your ***, doesn't make them OP. You can argue that all you want, but the facts don't need your approval to still be valid.

The reason for the pattern like behavior in tier has less to do with characters actually being up and more to do with players having similar issues dealing with them, and giving into lemming mentality. Point 1, nearly every player back in season one felt PK was OP, even though there emerged several threads highlighting how to deal with her, but very few could be ****ed to learn. Then again with Centurion, then again worth gladiator, and now with shaman/Musha. Point 2, lemming mentality: a lot of players hate the same classes simply because it's the popular thing to do. The more they hate and rant about other heroes, the less likely their favorite picks are going to be nerfed.
Point 3: never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers. I've seen forest hand that players are more willing to complain here farther than find something that works in game. And the more vocal they get, the less likely it is for the comuputer players to be heard
I've only ever had problems with these characters when they are played by people who are legitimately better than me. Otherwise, I hold my own. So instead of assuming the character is outright OP, why not simply admit you not beef by a better player and move on.
(Not enough to be familiar, but please don't use a tab-target based mmo as some comparison to a full action oriented combat game.)

HazelrahFirefly
04-10-2018, 12:23 PM
Ive come to agree with Alustar and Raime in this regard. There are two heroes that I can't ever contend with (Aramusha and Kensei), but I believe it to be my issue only.

Why? I had reality hit on a personal level with a friend who I'd say is just a slight higher skill tier then I. He told me he hates playing the Kensei now because he's slow and destroys them when they are his opponent. Meanwhile I usually don't even get a hit in.

kanuzira
04-10-2018, 12:47 PM
Shaman was designed to be a hero that gets in on someone reliably. In order for this to happen she had to be stacked with options. If she only had one or 2 reliable ways of getting in she wouldn't be meeting her design idea. She's balanced around the fact that all of her mix ups if read properly have a hard punish that nearly everyone in the cast can do. That and her damage profile is actually just average. Her bite while it "can" do 50 damage often never does. because that 50 damage is from bleed+ bite. If you bleed someone and then bite immediately you end up with only like 30 some damage.

Not according to the game stats itself. Put on damage numbers and you'll see it's 50. If it did do 30 damage i would have less de f a problem with it other than that with lb it is hard to dodge.

Alustar.
04-10-2018, 01:05 PM
Ive come to agree with Alustar and Raime in this regard. There are two heroes that I can't ever contend with (Aramusha and Kensei), but I believe it to be my issue only.

Why? I had reality hit on a personal level with a friend who I'd say is just a slight higher skill tier then I. He told me he hates playing the Kensei now because he's slow and destroys them when they are his opponent. Meanwhile I usually don't even get a hit in.

It's hard for players to separate ego with fact. I'm a PvP enthusiast, and even for honor knocked me down a peg on how I view my own skill level. It seems a lot of players just assume they are great and don't need to train. But go and talk to someone that plays Telken competitively and they will tell you they practice hours a day. Let me repeat that they PRACTICE FOR HOURS. meaning they go research timings, new combos, match up potential and watch videos on the topic before they even go play a match. Hell, every time I go start up the game I spend at least 30 mins against a level 0 hour just to make sure I've got my own timings down veggie I step foot in live combat.

Tirik22x
04-10-2018, 01:09 PM
The only correct and accurate thing you said was "we are the ones posting the game." Because yes, we are in fact playing the game.
Go look up the definition for personal bias and come back to this argument. Just because you think something as OP, doesn't qualify it as such. There are no OP characters is for honor, as damn near everything has a counter or a way out. The thing people miss is that this game has what are called "skill checks" meaning to compete at top tier ranked play you need to pass these skill checks. Just because you can't out perform everyone in every match, or the same hero seems to hand you your ***, doesn't make them OP. You can argue that all you want, but the facts don't need your approval to still be valid.

The reason for the pattern like behavior in tier has less to do with characters actually being up and more to do with players having similar issues dealing with them, and giving into lemming mentality. Point 1, nearly every player back in season one felt PK was OP, even though there emerged several threads highlighting how to deal with her, but very few could be ****ed to learn. Then again with Centurion, then again worth gladiator, and now with shaman/Musha. Point 2, lemming mentality: a lot of players hate the same classes simply because it's the popular thing to do. The more they hate and rant about other heroes, the less likely their favorite picks are going to be nerfed.
Point 3: never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers. I've seen forest hand that players are more willing to complain here farther than find something that works in game. And the more vocal they get, the less likely it is for the comuputer players to be heard
I've only ever had problems with these characters when they are played by people who are legitimately better than me. Otherwise, I hold my own. So instead of assuming the character is outright OP, why not simply admit you not beef by a better player and move on.
(Not enough to be familiar, but please don't use a tab-target based mmo as some comparison to a full action oriented combat game.)

This is such a ridiculous response, that Iím not even going to argue with it beyond pointing something out... if you donít think winning with some characters is 10x easier than with others, youíre lying. And that is literally the definition of unbalanced.

(I was just asking bc your name looked familiar. ****.)

Edit: lemme go back and explain how your logic is bogus AF...

ďThereís no unbalance in For Honor because everything has a counterĒ

Yea... no.

So if one hero has 2 weapons, and the other has 10 weapons and a self heal, theyíre balanced bc each of those weapons has a counter? Lolololololololol Ahhhh Yes, makes perfect sense.

Now, go play your Shaman main, lame ***.

Alustar.
04-10-2018, 01:20 PM
This is such a ridiculous response, that Iím not even going to argue with it beyond pointing something out... if you donít think winning with some characters is 10x easier than with others, youíre lying. And that is literally the definition of unbalanced.

(I was just asking bc your name looked familiar. ****.)

The only reason it's easier for me to win matches with certain characters is because I prefer assassin types. For instance, I can block and parry on reaction more readily with a hero with persistent block than I can with my assassins, however their inability to dodge effectively is why I lean towards assassin. I'm that same light, I know plenty of players who don't sync well with assassins, but utterly wreck shop with non assassin types.
Back around launch there was a player, Antonio(something) who could respond to peacekeeper light spam and parry my hits with accuracy. Meanwhile the bulk of the forums were players complaining that PK lights were OP. Now granted at first, her ability to chain together 4-5 light hits without ever using a feint was a problem, but even after that was patched she is still complained about today.

(Totally miss judged that, no I never got far enough to be recognized, though I did play WoW, Rift, and Tera under that same handle and was more than infamous in Rift at least.)

Knight_Raime
04-10-2018, 01:35 PM
Not according to the game stats itself. Put on damage numbers and you'll see it's 50. If it did do 30 damage i would have less de f a problem with it other than that with lb it is hard to dodge.

I can go do it later today against a bot but i'm 90% sure it's how I said it.

EDIT: it is how you say. it's 50 damage.
I'm confused on why so many people on the competitive reddit have told me other wise.
I tried biting after a bleed immediately. And waited till the last second. I even tried bleed cancel from zone. and bites after throwing.
The only thing I didn't attempt was the deflect since I was fighting the pk bot that doesn't fight you.

Alustar.
04-10-2018, 01:42 PM
I can go do it later today against a bot but i'm 90% sure it's how I said it.

All I can add to this is I've been in situations where if I catch a player with even a slight amount of bleed left, I can hit at least two bars of life still(on most heroes), though I'm not sure how that works if they have the bulk of the bleed still on, in live matches it's not as easy to get a predators mercy off, since it's pretty easy to dodge or hit me out of it.

Knight_Raime
04-10-2018, 01:49 PM
All I can add to this is I've been in situations where if I catch a player with even a slight amount of bleed left, I can hit at least two bars of life still(on most heroes), though I'm not sure how that works if they have the bulk of the bleed still on, in live matches it's not as easy to get a predators mercy off, since it's pretty easy to dodge or hit me out of it.

Yeah I did testing against the pk bot and any situation I could think of with bleed I tried and it was always 50 damage. So now I need to head back over to the competitive reddit and have someone explain to me how it's ever lower than 50. because I was told the damage varied depending on how much you let them bleed. But as I clearly saw the bite itself was always 50 according to the damage numbers in the bottom left that I have turned on.

Alustar.
04-10-2018, 01:54 PM
Yeah I did testing against the pk bot and any situation I could think of with bleed I tried and it was always 50 damage. So now I need to head back over to the competitive reddit and have someone explain to me how it's ever lower than 50. because I was told the damage varied depending on how much you let them bleed. But as I clearly saw the bite itself was always 50 according to the damage numbers in the bottom left that I have turned on.

Never let it be said Raime never admitted to being wrong! This is why we love you.

Knight_Raime
04-10-2018, 01:57 PM
Never let it be said Raime never admitted to being wrong! This is why we love you.

Love is a bit of a strong word :p I think tollerate is a better choice of word here.

Tirik22x
04-10-2018, 02:08 PM
I can go do it later today against a bot but i'm 90% sure it's how I said it.

EDIT: it is how you say. it's 50 damage.
I'm confused on why so many people on the competitive reddit have told me other wise.
I tried biting after a bleed immediately. And waited till the last second. I even tried bleed cancel from zone. and bites after throwing.
The only thing I didn't attempt was the deflect since I was fighting the pk bot that doesn't fight you.

Yes itís definitely 50...

When you main Cent, you notice half your health disappearing.

HazelrahFirefly
04-10-2018, 02:12 PM
I *think* the difference in numbers is focused on how much the Shaman heals (but its been a mont since I played her now). I think the longer you wait, the less healing you get when you bite. Essentially she absorbs the bleed bar.

Knight_Raime
04-10-2018, 02:13 PM
I *think* the difference in numbers is focused on how much the Shaman heals (but its been a mont since I played her now). I think the longer you wait, the less healing you get when you bite. Essentially she absorbs the bleed bar.

If it was in regards to how much health she gets from bite than the people talking to me made a big boo boo and neglected to mention that. xD

Charmzzz
04-10-2018, 02:15 PM
Yes it’s definitely 50...

When you main Cent, you notice half your health disappearing.

Do you get hit by Pred Mercy in Duel or Dom? I just ask cause in a 1v1 situation I rarely get hit by it, even if they feint the first attempt. It is pretty easy to read. In Dom, well, it is one of the good ganking tools. But you have to get the target bleeding first, which is not that easy if you dont team up with a PK or Nobushi (btw I never played Shaman myself). And even then any Raider / Lawbringer Combo is better because their CC does not get interrupted when Teammates hit them. Shaman immediately gets knocked off.

HazelrahFirefly
04-10-2018, 02:17 PM
So you find a character with max range, speed, agility, unblockables, and hits that take 50% of your life, AND has a self heal, to be balanced? Oh, all while doing it with a primitive hatchet, ax and HER TEETH...

Comon now...

Nope, I never said balanced.

The OG cast does need reworking because they have almost no options compared to the dlc and reworked heroes. Even the PK, what was my main... I tried to play her again and was bored by how little she could do. In no way bad, just boring and limited compared to the Shaman and HL that I also play.

My point was that despite the Shaman having so much to make her unbalanced by comparison, I still dont find her that challenging - probably 6th actually. Not to say that she isn't hard, and I can completely understand why someone would struggle against her.

However, difficulty is subjective. I find Aramusha fights perhaps harder than anything else in gaming, yet others laugh and call me ****.