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View Full Version : Priorities - this shouldn’t be happening.



Kelson27
04-09-2018, 01:27 AM
In the last WD there was talk about both feats and ganking being low on the priority list, they don’t even get a look in until the reworks are done, which is close to the end of the year. I’m hoping these two vids show just how game breaking these are, I’d personally want this looked into before the reworks as I put up with them now, but a year down the track we might have a great kit for all classes, we’ll still have these absolute turnoffs that are actively/already stopping people from wanting to play the game.

Ganked, 1v3, they pop revenge... bad playing aside from me 😋 this just shouldn’t happen.
http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/KD27/video/47454872

Cataboom
http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/KD27/video/46091025

Solutions: ganking

Revenge
• Implements 'slippery' for attacks that disable the player (like the feat the stops GB, some kind of mechanic that stops 'disables' under revenge).
• Always auto parries/escapes holds on activation of revenge - no exceptions and more lenient timings.
• Activates immediately when called upon.
• Ignores rocksteady feat.

General
• Revenge gain benefits per extra player attack - E.g. no revenge gain when attacked by 1 person, regular revenge gains once attacked by 2nd person, 150% revenge gains once attacked by 3rd person, full revenge once attacked by 4th person.
• Parry timings open up per extra player attack - E.g. Regular parry timings when attacked by 1 person, 5% more parry window once attacked by 2nd person, 7.5% more parry window once attacked by 3rd person, 10% more parry window once attacked by 4th person.

Solutions: feats

Feats need a complete rework, but the main culprits being instakills when breaking. In prior threads I had suggested catapult has accuracy applied where it can miss its mark, a point where the player calling it in actually has to do so, calling to outside for a moment leaving them open for attack. There should also be a much longer window from when the catapult is called upon to the projectile landing.

Personally, I think all feats are a little uninspired and break the flow of the game at the moment. There should be feats to call in archers, captains etc. not scud missiles. Somehow there is a feat from the sky more damaging than a killstreak in COD, epileptic galactic space warfighter, and it sounds like the devs are fine with that. At a pinch they need to be tweaked out with minor changes. Altogether they should be rethought. I’m fine with OHK feats, but don’t make them cheap and borderline unavoidable. That’s enough from me, if you want to look further there is some good ideas in the thread below too re 4v4 solutions.

https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1852979-List-of-ALL-SOLUTIONS-vs-GANKING-4v4-problem

bmason1000
04-09-2018, 02:17 AM
Anyone else feel like ganking or "death balling" is not nearly as rampant or annnnnywhere near as effective as the vocal outcry would have you believe?

Two parter here: Same story with feats. Largely just not an issue. The real issue with feats, is actually how worthless some of them are.

Who agrees with either? Or both?

Kelson27
04-09-2018, 02:38 AM
I think ganking has its place, it just needs to be adjusted. Such as when you go up against a team of 4 raiders that all spam unblockables or any team that deathballs with disables and unblockables. Everything needs a counter. And of course it’s effective, to the tune of you’ll still being playing against them in 30 seconds, only now your entire team is bots because it’s clearly an issue.

Absolutely the same for the feats. There’s no middle ground, you’ve got entirely OP and entirely useless, And considering the theme of the game I definitely think they should improve.

SangLong524
04-09-2018, 04:20 AM
Ganking: you CAN always perform Tactical Retreat aka run away. seriously, the way people talk about it, u think they are the real victim here. It takes two to tango, u know. in this case, it take you (1) and them (>2). Stop being in over your head for whatever notion of delusion you feed and be fed yourself and don't get cornered then ganking won't be a serious problem.

Playing_Mantis
04-09-2018, 04:39 AM
well, if u have 4 on u the best thing u can do is try to survive as long as u can so that your other teammates can get all the objectives. in my opinion going 4 v 1 is not really the best way to win, unless your teammates just keep running in to help 1 at a time and all keep getting killed.

Kelson27
04-09-2018, 05:19 AM
You guys seem to have misread my post, I’m not asking for advice. In the last WD they asked for solutions from the community, that’s what I have here. Running away for entire matches? Not really constructive discussion.

mrmistark
04-09-2018, 05:57 AM
Ganking: you CAN always perform Tactical Retreat aka run away. seriously, the way people talk about it, u think they are the real victim here. It takes two to tango, u know. in this case, it take you (1) and them (>2). Stop being in over your head for whatever notion of delusion you feed and be fed yourself and don't get cornered then ganking won't be a serious problem.

This is one of those “sounds good” type of things everyone says.

“Don’t allow yourself to get ganked”, “just run away”, “it’s all your fault if you get caught in a gank situation”.

It’s great to say. I used to say the same thing, but it’s not that simple. When your whole team gets wrecked and the whole team is coming at you, when your teammates fighting next to you die, when you try to help a teammate out and they die before you get to them, or when you accidentally get seen on the radar and see the whole gank squad on the map do a 180 your direction.... “run away” works....if your an assassin. If you’re even remotely slow, you will inevitably get caught. If you’re a heavy character, sorry for your luck. Shugoki will never be able to outrun an assassin. In tribute, if you’re carrying a flag, you’ll get caught. It’s just a reality. It’s an inherent handicap heavy players deal with.

Now revenge, yes, on activation allows you to knock down the enemy, but that’s assuming that they don’t fient to bait it out, and that you’re not stun locked even after you enter revenge mode by other players that didn’t get knocked down. If there is more than 1 enemy, the chances that you fool both into attacking you at the same time while you have revenge ready to activate is slim to none.

Now I don’t necessarily agree with all the proposed changes. But to dismiss the problem with a solution that isn’t reliable doesn’t fix the problem or the reality that gankballing is still the easiest and most viable way to play almost all of the team game modes.


As for changes, I think revenge just needs to be what it is intended for: running away or tanking until help arrives. Defense penetration coupled with strong attack stats, stun locks, and the fact that Some CC can lock you into animation is detrimental to the first point, and as stated above, running away isn’t as viable as we want to pretend. The problem is revenge since launch has been seen as a very “attack and kill quick” tool. If you fail to do so you typically have sealed the fate of your death. The problem is there is more emphasis on attack while in revenge than tanking like the devs suggest.

So to the point: go back to the basics on revenge. Give a speed boost so you can effectively gain enough ground between you and the enemy. Remove all attack oriented properties with revenge and simply boost the defense of revenge significantly, make it impervious to staggering CC and instantly activatable. They key is to survive, not run a one man show. As soon as a second enemy attacks your revenge should be filling at a reasonable pace. Right now it’s rather pitiful even with a maxed revenge gain stat. Its one thing to survive for a bit even against a stunlock, but a complete other thing when you almost have to get into a gank ball just to get enough revenge gain going on your meter with other than best stats.

Now on the other hand, they need to allow an incentive to not gank as much. Now I’m not saying all ganking should be cut from the game. Skirmish is a prime example of it simply being the name of the game: who can gank better to victory. Elimination is also an “expect to be snowballed at your team slowly dies” type of deal. Tribute, to address this game mode is a little more difficult than dominion. It’s not as bad gank wise in my experience. I would say spread the flag posts out a little bigger on certain maps but it’d need to be carefully done so it doesn’t create a never ending game or make it impossible to maintain. Points just far enough away for the protection of multiple points being unreliable. As of now most maps you can camp between 2 points and quickly respond within seconds to either point. Not saying make this unviable, but more difficult and unviable for 1 character to protect multiple points. Dominion should only give points for being on an objective, currently called “boosting” without hero stacking points on a single objective. That way other than healing or back up, having multiple players on one objective is not as efficient as that character trying to take a different objective and holding it. It would make going in smaller groups more effective than a giant ball of masses.

The gank ball problem goes both ways. We can’t be asking to have special privileges just because we got into a bad situation, but we need an incentive to make this easy win snowball effect less desirable.

SangLong524
04-09-2018, 05:59 AM
There's a reason people call running away "tactical retreat". It's not always about saving some face. Pursuiting a runner leaves the pursuers open for ambush. There's a lot of fun strategies involving running away.
On the other hand, if one finds himself running away the entire match without any productive contribution, then. His team sucks.
For the above post, I don't dismiss the problem regarding ganking. There's a lot of people running head first in a tanking situation and die, then come crying about it.
Revenge should either gear toward fleeing or tanking. With both it presents a nasty hit and run situation that leave us little chance to relaliate. On that note, I can't help but notice a common scene that the whole team bashing a single enemy, all blocked/parried. And people wonder why revenge is so easily triggered!!!

ChampionRuby50g
04-09-2018, 06:47 AM
And how do you propose I set up an ambush with the 3 other players on my team who have no means of communicating with me, ignore all chat commands such as group up, are intent of running in solo instead of waiting for a team mate? It’s not as simple as you make it out to be.

bmason1000
04-09-2018, 07:08 AM
I feel like these problems only exist in solo play. The solution to the gank meta is "find a group."

SangLong524
04-09-2018, 08:52 AM
And how do you propose I set up an ambush with the 3 other players on my team who have no means of communicating with me, ignore all chat commands such as group up, are intent of running in solo instead of waiting for a team mate? It’s not as simple as you make it out to be.

Try baiting. that's one way. If your teammate is smart, he/she will find a way to sneak up, if he knows the layout and current situation. Communication helps, but not strictly required. If it's not working, then I redirect u to my second point. your team maybe good individually, but suck together.
and baiting is like fishing. The fishes don't have to bite your bait.

Kelson27
04-09-2018, 09:25 AM
The solutions I proposed aren’t drastic, that’s why I feel they could be implemented and ease the ganking problem. They would simply stop revenge from being activated by someone in a duel (or in a position of advantage) and give somebody who is being ganked an edge. That edge isn’t exactly only beneficial, the trade off is fighting 3-4 people by yourself as a requirement for that benefit. With these, at least there’s a fighting chance to break free, and not be stuck where you cannot react due to stuns or disables from multiple attacks. You’re 1vX, you’re supposed to be at a disadvantage when outnumbered, but not to the point you might as well put the controller down.

With this, I’m not talking tactics or solutions to cherry picked situations, when I refer to ganking, I refer to the match where you end up with 3 bots on your team, against a team who have built themselves to disable you, unbreakable you to death and then spam the sorry button and emotes such as dual cents, LBs who’s only goal is to chase you down and flip you so his mates can take free swings. The highlanders who hold caber toss while you sit there takings hits. The one where you get singled out for being the only human player in the game, or chased around the entire map while you strategically run the entire match, capping nothing and attacking nothing. The kits are fine and getting better but they can be abused, that abuse needs a counter. Sometimes your team does just suck! That doesn’t mean you should have a bad time with it either.

SpaceJim12
04-09-2018, 10:13 AM
Before doing THAT changes to revenge you should remove gear stats from this game. Well, devs should remove them anyway, but who cares? Because now you can see player who gain revenge even if you fight him 1v1 and sometimes, if your gear stats are not already complete, you wait your revenge by centuries, while full gunksquad hitting you.
So, if revenge will be like you suggested, in 1v1 it will be 100% win, and everybody will create gear with full "rebenge gain stats"

Veerdin-Wraith
04-09-2018, 10:28 AM
The thing about ganking is that its more of an annoyance than an actual problem. Yes, it sucks to get pummeled from 3 or 4 directions at once, having almost zero chance to react, and I hate getting ganked as much as the next person (I'm also just as guilty of doing it myself, as I'm sure most of us are) but let's look at all the 4v4 modes and how effective ganking actually is in them:

Dominion: Probably the most-played gamemode where this occurs and the one where it can potentially have the most impact. Either you'll get a gank squad that roves between the three points, flattening everything in their path, or one that hangs between two points, going back and forth between them and turning the area into no-man's-land.

The problem with both of these tactics (and with ganking in Dominion at all) is that in order to actually win Dominion, all you need to do is keep two territories longer than your opponents. In order to do that, you need to spread out: Attacking a zone that's full of enemies will get you flattened, but if you just keep on the move and have at least one player on each point at any given time? You can keep control for longer and win.

A team that ganks will be concentrated in one area, so if you just focus on avoiding them and capturing whatever point they're not occupying, they'll either lose the game or be forced to split up.

Tribute: Ganking is a little less common here because of the spread out and sporadic nature of respawns. And while it's true that a tightly formulated team can have a massive advantage, its also true that the other team will be concentrated in the same place. Unlike Dominion mode, there is only one "zone" per team.

Grouping at your own shrines means the entire enemy team will hit you at once and it'll be an even match. Grouping at the enemy shrines leaves your own shrines undefended, and trying to move as a group leavea you vulnerable to getting out-menuvered.

Again, in order to actually win Tribute, you need an even split between players attacking the enemy shrine, players defending the home shrine, and players moving the Tribute offerings around. Putting all your eggs in one basket leaves your team weak in multiple areas.

Elimimation: Ganking in this mode is sadly just a part of how it plays. It's pure and simply a 4v4 deathmatch, so if you find yourself getting ganked, all that means is that the enemy team is better at killing than you are. The whole gamemode is focused around this idea, and if you prevented teams from ganking, then all you're doing is turning the 4v4 into four separate 1v1s.

Skirmish: Again, killing is the whole point. And thanks to the wave-based respawn system, the game basically encourages you to move as a team. If you're getting ganked in Skirmish, the simple answer is that your enemies are better at playing Skirmish than your team is.

Feats definitely need to be reworked, though.

Kelson27
04-09-2018, 10:51 AM
Before doing THAT changes to revenge you should remove gear stats from this game. Well, devs should remove them anyway, but who cares? Because now you can see player who gain revenge even if you fight him 1v1 and sometimes, if your gear stats are not already complete, you wait your revenge by centuries, while full gunksquad hitting you.
So, if revenge will be like you suggested, in 1v1 it will be 100% win, and everybody will create gear with full "rebenge gain stats"

Not sure I'm quite undertstanding you... If revenge were as per my suggestions then 1v1 you would never see revenge at all. It's not until you're 1v2 that it even builds. I can't recall if in my original post I also put that revenge should peter out and stop building once the original perpetrators have been dispatched, so you should never see a 1v1 revenge popping ever.

Gear is kind of another thing, I disagree that it needs to go. It definitely adds longevity to this game and a reason for collectors to stick around.

Kelson27
04-09-2018, 11:06 AM
The thing about ganking is that its more of an annoyance than an actual problem. Yes, it sucks to get pummeled from 3 or 4 directions at once, having almost zero chance to react, and I hate getting ganked as much as the next person (I'm also just as guilty of doing it myself, as I'm sure most of us are) but let's look at all the 4v4 modes and how effective ganking actually is in them:

Dominion: Probably the most-played gamemode where this occurs and the one where it can potentially have the most impact. Either you'll get a gank squad that roves between the three points, flattening everything in their path, or one that hangs between two points, going back and forth between them and turning the area into no-man's-land.

The problem with both of these tactics (and with ganking in Dominion at all) is that in order to actually win Dominion, all you need to do is keep two territories longer than your opponents. In order to do that, you need to spread out: Attacking a zone that's full of enemies will get you flattened, but if you just keep on the move and have at least one player on each point at any given time? You can keep control for longer and win.

A team that ganks will be concentrated in one area, so if you just focus on avoiding them and capturing whatever point they're not occupying, they'll either lose the game or be forced to split up.

Tribute: Ganking is a little less common here because of the spread out and sporadic nature of respawns. And while it's true that a tightly formulated team can have a massive advantage, its also true that the other team will be concentrated in the same place. Unlike Dominion mode, there is only one "zone" per team.

Grouping at your own shrines means the entire enemy team will hit you at once and it'll be an even match. Grouping at the enemy shrines leaves your own shrines undefended, and trying to move as a group leavea you vulnerable to getting out-menuvered.

Again, in order to actually win Tribute, you need an even split between players attacking the enemy shrine, players defending the home shrine, and players moving the Tribute offerings around. Putting all your eggs in one basket leaves your team weak in multiple areas.

Elimimation: Ganking in this mode is sadly just a part of how it plays. It's pure and simply a 4v4 deathmatch, so if you find yourself getting ganked, all that means is that the enemy team is better at killing than you are. The whole gamemode is focused around this idea, and if you prevented teams from ganking, then all you're doing is turning the 4v4 into four separate 1v1s.

Skirmish: Again, killing is the whole point. And thanks to the wave-based respawn system, the game basically encourages you to move as a team. If you're getting ganked in Skirmish, the simple answer is that your enemies are better at playing Skirmish than your team is.

Feats definitely need to be reworked, though.

In some ways you are right, I think it depends on what the "gankers" actual tactic is - or if they are even playing to win. It doesn't matter how long you run between points to keep the score up, unless your group can get the smarts enough to get together at the end then you still get steamrolled. In my experience, a team of gankers generally gets the win regardless.

However, a team that sticks together is one thing, but the team of gankers I have a problem with and am addressing, are the ones that play roles that actively disable you - not for a win, but for the pleasure of fairly played griefing. They aren't here to play the game to win, they've found a way to abuse players, then they'll spam emotes over your corpse. That's their end game. I'm not looking for ways to actively play against gankers for a result, I'm talking about improving the game in subtle ways enough that grief driven players don't ruin the fun for everybody. I don't play games solely for the purpose of a +1 on the score card, if you had no fun winning that game then what's the point? Tactics won't change that this annoyance is getting in the way of good entertainment, and when you're up against these guys, you might take out 2 of them! But it will never feel like you came out of a fair competition.

SpaceJim12
04-09-2018, 12:36 PM
Gear is kind of another thing, I disagree that it needs to go. It definitely adds longevity to this game and a reason for collectors to stick around.

Collectors of what? Why people can't collect visual part of armor and weapons instead of gear stats?

And as I see work of gear stats, you will have revenge on 1v1. Cause, I believe, you can't just turn it off in 4v4 mode for 1v1 fights. I think revenge generate from blocking, parrying and that kind of think. And in this case three heavy chars will generate you revenge as fast as Shaman in 1v1, cause of speed and numbers of attack. So, apply gear stat for revenge gain and after 4-5 blocks you'll have revenge no matter how many people hitting you.

SpaceJim12
04-09-2018, 12:41 PM
The problem with both of these tactics (and with ganking in Dominion at all) is that in order to actually win Dominion, all you need to do is keep two territories longer than your opponents. In order to do that, you need to spread out: Attacking a zone that's full of enemies will get you flattened, but if you just keep on the move and have at least one player on each point at any given time? You can keep control for longer and win.

The problem in the distance that divide zones. On every map you can easily reach a middle zone in 2-3 sec. So, most of the time gunkers just captured zone nearest to B and send one of them kill minions. If someone came to middle, they will come and gunk this person.
And on stright maps like Bridge and Forge, gunkers just capture all points and don't let you leave the spawn zone. I see this to many times, so this tactic works perfectly. Split up, other way, will lead you to death in 80% of time.

Kelson27
04-09-2018, 01:34 PM
Collectors of what? Why people can't collect visual part of armor and weapons instead of gear stats?

And as I see work of gear stats, you will have revenge on 1v1. Cause, I believe, you can't just turn it off in 4v4 mode for 1v1 fights. I think revenge generate from blocking, parrying and that kind of think. And in this case three heavy chars will generate you revenge as fast as Shaman in 1v1, cause of speed and numbers of attack. So, apply gear stat for revenge gain and after 4-5 blocks you'll have revenge no matter how many people hitting you.

Its programming. You can do what you like, that’s why when you hit your emote button a rainbow pops out. I don’t think there’s much point discussing speculative roadblocks.

As for the gear, the stats make the loot pool infinitely larger, and if you get no gain from 1v1s, then the revenge gain means nothing anyway.

Alustar.
04-09-2018, 01:54 PM
Just to throw in my bag to this, I've been playing since sound launch and to say death balls aren't a problem is a huge understatement, as the game has changed drastically in the post few seasons. The addition of me characters and tweaks to existing ones makes this problem even more pressing. Myself, I know before season 4 I never really had to worry about roaming death balls. I could handle 2-3 opponents no problem, in fact I purposely ran solo because I was component in my ability to survive and respond. But now with most classes having some form of CC and the hit stun stagger, these situations are a death sentence, even if you have another player. No one here is saying you should be able to solo entire teams, I personally want to see game modes that encourage tactical play as opposed to just running with the group and mashing quick attacks and unlockables. This isn't call of duty, and I have a hard time believing that even the devs had this in mind when they say down and started work on for honor. Case and point, we have four players per team and typically 3 objectives pier match. With map sizes the way they are in most objective based modes, it makes it harder to play in more tactical ways since most are going to ignore objectives. You don't see this problem as heavily in larger maps because you have multiple avenues to force the opposing team to split up. To put this as basically as possible, deathballs have a place, it's called skirmish. If the majority of these complaints came from players in skirmish, then yes you are full in your right mind to ask, "why aren't you with your group!?" But to see these problems so glaringly prevalent in objective based modes is an issue. The only reason they do it is to push their score up, while simultaneously denying the enemy team access to feasts that would otherwise even the playing field. So not only do you have a deathball problem, but now that same deathball has all of the renown needed to keep the enemy from grouping up and retaliating.
At this point it's not a race to complete the actual objective, it's a scramble to jack up your teams renown to gain the feasts and use them to further eliminate enemies with little to no effort. I've seen this in almost every match I've been in, in the last two months. I've been in full premade teams that lose out to tensions because we thought that a tactical approach could beat out a freeways and were sorely mistaken. So what you are essentially saying is ignore objectives because and run deathballs because that is the meta. And that's just outright wrong, I want to out play my opponents, not button mash my way to victory because we have more attacks flying than they can defend against. That's not a tactic, that's a cheese.

SpaceJim12
04-09-2018, 02:47 PM
A team that ganks will be concentrated in one area, so if you just focus on avoiding them and capturing whatever point they're not occupying, they'll either lose the game or be forced to split up.

And, by the way, remebred that Dominion sometimes have nothing in common with objectives. I mean, sometimes I see results of match and their my team have more kills, more objectives and smae or more points overall, but we lost the match. why it's happen, cause of who kills first or faster sometimes is everything. We have enemy team broken, they fight us 4v4, than one guy goes to recapture zone for comeback in points, we send one of our teammates to fight that smart pants. What happens next? Other three avoid the fight, run away from point and lead to other zone where they can gunk our guy. And here where speed determines everything, cauze if enemy have Shinobi, Shaman and all this fast assassins and you have one LB and one HL, you just can;t be that fast to catch them until they gunk your teammate, and thous one, who captured zone already runing to the zone you left. And result, your team broken gunkers ready to kill you and you probably have -1, so that makes you 3v4 fight.
And that's could happen in perfect conditions, when you have good communications with your teammates. Now, imaging what happend in random party, 90% chance for idiot, who will die in some corner, running for objectives.
I see only good solution here is do not allow that kind of comeback. If your team broken, so deal with it. You can recapture zones to make opponents broken as well, but you can't revive in a minute just recapture one zone or even worst, if minions some stupid way recapture the middle.