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View Full Version : fix all the heros! (a rebalance thread)



Knight_Raime
04-07-2018, 02:45 PM
So this is my final piece of this work. I had initially set out to rep 2 all heros (and put a third rep on heros I already have 2 on) to gain a better understanding of the heros and their matchups. Sadly due to lack of lag comp I became incredibly frustrated and quit playing till lag comp is in. That being said I still spent some time playing VS bots and searching the internet for general opinions on heros/tactics heros use. I will fully admit this won't be as polished or well done as I wanted. But I really wanted to dump this thread out there so I feel like I can let go from For Honor and take a well deserved break till things pick up again. To remind you these are rebalances. Not reworks. I'm not saying that the devs should not give reworks to all OG heros like kensei or conq. The idea is these are to be bare minimum changes to complete the kit in case the devs decide not to rework them.

Warden:
~removal of stagger on whiff of GB if it takes you OOS.
~Lights are not interrupted on block.
~Heavy finisher is unblockable and uninterruptable.
~Fixed issue where a fully charged bash didn't give top heavy.

2 of these changes are to fix clunky parts of his kit that effect his performance negatively without actually adding to his gameplay.
While the other 2 seek to double down on Wardens style. Lights not being interrupted on block allow Warden to get similar pressure that he gets with his bash mix up when the opponent is OOS. But in normal play. And giving his heavy finisher the Berzerker treatment enhances the gameplay of that tactic already. But forces the opponent to actually risk something instead of standing and waiting. I can see maybe having to tone the heavy finisher damage down a little to compensate for it's new strengths.

Centurion:
~health buff to 130.
~jumping heavy is now GB immune, unblockable, and guarantees an uncharged jab if landed.
~Kick can now be canceled 100ms into the dodge but keeps the same window of delay.
~Neutral heavy feint is sped up to be the standard quickness of other heavy feints.
~Left side light now does 15 damage like the rest of his lights

Health buff is to compensate for the fact that he's weaker overall in the offensive department as a side effect of season 5's changes. I believed the original health value was made to be assassin like due to his offensive pressure. Since he now lacks that I think a health buff is more than fair. Jumping heavy changes make it a decent tool in a gank and give it at least some niche use in 1v1. Gave some what of a conq treatment to his kick as he has in OOS some pressure with his kick. But keeping the same delay window makes sure it stays just as avoidable for people who have muscle memory against it. Last change is a qol to make standard feint bait games with him actually doable. And since he's primarily about that heavy game it would be imo a sizable buff for him. Last one is a bug fix.

Gladiator:
~zone can no longer be canceled.
~Guard decay is brought up to shinobi's level.
~Skewer can be activated from neutral and ignores armor.
~Blocking a side dash attack no longer gives a GB. But blocking top still does.

Zone due to it's animation and nature is just far too powerful. Removing the cancel gives a greater window to punish as someone who properly spaces can avoid and then attack. or avoid and parry. and since the second part is a heavy it still wouldn't be massively bad for glad. But this still retains the power of the zone due to the beginning bash and how it's animated. Shinobi's guard decay still requires a degree of decent timing but isn't too hard to do. Glads basically means he's extra screwed by combo heros. This change will give him a fighting chance against them without majorly buffing his defensive game much. Skewer from neutral gives him better feint options which hell need after a zone nerf. and ignoring armor makes sense because it functions as a grab if landed. His side dash hits are weird from the get go and are kind of poor at avoiding things to begin with. Shouldn't give a big punish. However his forward dash is really strong and quick. Thus I think the GB punishment should stay.

Peacekeeper:
~Can now soft feint heavies in combos to bleed cancel and GB.
~All bleeds she procs are treated as the same allowing them to stack with eachother.
~Bleed cancel poke damage is buffed to 12-15. Bleed damage itself stays the same.
~Back dash distance brought in line with the rest of the assassins.
~Deflect bleed poke now can be followed up with a heavy input that takes the remaining bleed damage (if opponent is bleeding) and deals it in one hit. ending the bleed. The attack damage of the heavy itself is minor.

Peacekeeper is strong due to her option select with zone. Admittingly I didn't nerf this because i'm not confident in how to do so a smart way. It should absolutely be nerfed. And these changes are to buff her so she's got a decent kit after. So assume when reading these changes this is after her option select zone has been nerfed.

Conq:
~Bashes no longer drain stamina on OOS opponent. But slightly delay it instead. Meaning someone who is OOS will get into their non OOS sooner before conq burns out of his own stamina.
~Zone no longer gets full block automatically. only blocks from the direction of your widget when you initiate zone.
~shield uppercut now has good tracking on back dashes as well.

Upon some reading i've found out that conq's varied bash is beaten by anyone with a dodge attack or 600ms or better dodge recovery. So my original idea to nerf it was not needed. This still retains conqs OOS threat. Just not as much as it was. Zone was too strong. I rather like the ability to cancel it on the first hit now. But being able to defend from all angles meant unless you were zerker with a top heavy finisher or you parried that first hit it was unpunishable. This still gives him some defense. Just not total immunity. finally since shield uppercut had poor forward tracking and didn't beat dash attacks it was left to be very situational. This at least gives it a little bit more use.

Lawbringer:
~Shove on block is removed.
~dash shove is 200ms faster.
~blocked heavies now give shove.
~Top unblockable is guaranteed on light parries and has armor.
~Long arm can now be used in place of a move in combo. Is 600ms in combo.
~Neutral long arm has armor.
~Make way is unblockable and does 30 damage.
~impaling riposte now carries you a shorter distance.

Shove on block just goes against the grain of combat. We shouldn't be harshly punishing people who block. For most of the player base countering the light after shove was too unreasonable. Removing it is the best option. To compensate for this removal his shove from neutral is faster so he can occasionally use that to chip instead. giving him more shove opportunities during combos keeps lawbringers presence a threat but not an overpowering one damage wise. Top unblockable changes are to give it consistency and a place in a gank/team fight. Adding long arm in as an option to combos gives him more options mid combo without making the LB or the player have to learn new combos and making it faster makes it more reliable in a combo. Neutral armor addition is to make it easier to use in a team fight where LB shines. Making make way an unblockable gives another option in team fights with respectable damage. and impaling riposte is far too strong. at worst a splat nailed you 50 damage on any parry and at best was an insta kill with the environment. These will still be options for LB. but now the positioning has to be better. Meaning his other options have a chance to be used without taking anything away from LB.

Aramusha:
~Top heavy from Blade blockade is now guaranteed on lights and still works on heavy finishers. But does not work against most heavies.
~Give some tracking to his Blade blockade side heavies.
~Back dash distance buffed. Back dash recovery changed to 700ms.

Buffing aramusha's combos in anyway just would make things too frustrating for lower tiers and do very little for high tier. Buffing blade blockade seemed obvious since that's where the rest of his kit lies. The added tracking means people can't just back dash out of the mix up. and buffing his back dash doesn't do him much in terms of offense. But it means he can at least escape some pressure.


Orochi:
~Riptide strike has proper I frames and carries you a few steps forward.
~Dodge attacks are now heavies and do slightly more damage.
~Storm rush has I frames on start up, can be canceled later into it's animation, and can be soft feinted into dodge attacks which make those dodge attacks faster than normal.
~Orochi now has a light>light>heavy combo. If that heavy is inputed on a side it's unblockable. it's feintable.
~Feinting into a side light makes the side light faster.
~Throw distance slightly buffed.

Riptide and storm rush need I frames to be considered viable options for whiff punishing which is what Orochi is mainly about. Dodge attacks are now heavies because such easily baited and telegraphed moves generally shouldn't receive such a huge punishment. Feint into GB is already a big punish on assassins if you read them right. other storm rush changes give orochi some mix up game and a bit more use to his dash attacks. Which would let him dodge things in a team fight without slapping armor on him. I chose to give a new combo instead of making the third light in his triple light combo unblockable just for ease of coding. And it plays into his current feint games. Feinting into a faster side light is similar to zerk and gives his side lights a use while being creative rather than speeding it up normally. it adds to his mix up game as well. Increased throw distance lets Orochi have access to some unique punishes with his kit. He already has these options but the spacing is too hard.

Kensei:
~Soft feinting in a chain allows you to delay his options.
~Pommel gains side tracking.
~Swift strike can't be delayed anymore.

Giving kensei the ability to delay his feint options in combo rewards him for going further into combo instead of just going for easy unblockable cancels only. Giving pommel side tracking means he cant be cheesed by 500ms and 600ms recovery heros who dodge to the side on reaction to heavy indicator and avoid all soft feints. Swift strike being delayable didn't really help him much in the grand scheme of things but it did make him a lot more annoying in group fights/casual play. So removing it won't really harm him performance wise but make things easier on the average playerbase.


Shugoki:
~No longer has passive armor.
~Better recovery after charged heavies.
~Better dodge distance across the board.
~Goki takes reduced damage from neutral attacks but takes standard damage from comboed moves.
~Goki now has armor on Heavy attacks.
~Takes less time for goki to charge a heavy to unblockable state.
~Demons embrace now has a set damage and health return. No longer one hits. Gives him passive armor on landing it. And no health penalty if he misses. (old armor works as it did before. meaning it can take one hit and not stun him. will have to land another DE to get it back.)
~Demon ball can now knock down someone and ledge someone if they're OOS.

Goki is meant to be "the tank" but how he did it was through very brain dead play. Was unfun to do and unfun to play against. Demons embrace was a very unfun move as well for both sides. Changes made to goki retain his tank status in interesting non intrusive ways. Demon ball now has a niche use. And heavy buffs mean he's got incentive to go on the offensive and risk things instead of waiting around.

Nobushi:
~Can now land right side heavy on wall splat.
~Hidden stance no longer pauses stamina regeneration.
~Dodge distance on dash heavies increased by a small amount.

First fix is just silly to even be a thing. and this second change lets bushi's be more playful instead of stalling out due to the harsh 4 seconds of waiting after using HS. Bushi has to heavily rely on feinting in order to get anywhere. And that often runs her stamina pool enough as is. This just means the pace of the fight will be faster. Final change is to let nobu dodge things without using hidden stance constantly. But dash light distance remains the same.

Shinobi:
~Side dash kick and roll forward kick can now splat.
~Quad dash is now a feature.
~Kick after quad dash is now easier input wise.
~Can now roll in on a blocked heavy.
~Parrying a ranged heavy/cgbing a ranged GB brings shinobi much closer.
~Splatting someone with roll in kick gives enough stun to guarantee ranged GB.

Giving both kicks splat capability means both kicks become more useful. the dodge kick for ganks/team fights and the roll in kick for his own 1v1 strength.
Making quad dash and kick after quad dash easier to do input wise doubles down on his gimmick of mobility without actually making him directly more powerful. Rolling in on a blocked heavy just makes sense if we're to make his roll kick have a bigger purpose. But by letting him get pulled in closer not only makes punishes against him more consistent for the whole cast but also means his ranged hits are not just safe with the new buffs. Giving the ability to get your insta ranged GB a guarantee on that kick means it makes more use of his sickle rain beyond whiff punishing high recovery attacks. Overall his changes buff his mobility and threat but also keeps him in check.

Shaman:
~Can only attempt to bite twice per bleed proc.
~Whiffed bite can only be canceled into wild cats rage. If that WCR misses there is front loaded recovery. Making a punish on it easy for the entire cast.
~Bite damage dropped by 10 damage.
~Back dash distance brought in line with other assassins.
~fixed inconsistency of pounce pushing enemies too far to follow up with lights.
~fixed wild cats rage indicator issues.

Changes aimed at bringing down bites annoyingness without nerfing it too hard. Back dash nerf to make her less insane. Unsure if those 2 bugs are fixed. so decided to add them.

Berzerker:
~Reduce stamina cost on backwards zone.
~Side dodges are now heavies. Damage stays the same.
~Removal of armor from feinted neutral lights.
~Can cancel a neutral light into dash.

Stamina cost on backwards zone is too much of an ask. Despite it being hard to punish it's very finicky and has very niche use. There was no reason to increase the stamina cost. As mentioned with orochi dash attacks are easily baited and shouldn't be punished so harshly on a reaction. Didn't buff their damage like rochi's because zerk is about getting into combos. Not getting away with quick good damage. Armor on feinted neutral lights is too much of an ask for majority of players to deal with. due to zerks animations the speed alone is enough for most players even good ones to struggle blocking consistently. Armor in this instance is just overkill. I specify neutral lights to avoid flicker issues with his new fast feinted into lights. he already had a semi mind game with random thrown lights/heavies from neutral. this change brings that back to an extent.

Warlord:
~Slightly increased damage on poke after landing headbutt and headbutt gets slightly better tracking.
~Parry counter now guarantees the follow up attack again. slight bump to damage.

Warlord just needed some slight buffs to remain as competitive as he should be.

Valk:
~light into heavy combo.
~Side dash recoveries buffed to 600ms.
~forward dash recovery is buffed to 500ms.
~Spear sweep recovery is changed to 800ms. and is GB immune.
~Zone first hit is 600ms. second hit is 700ms.
~neutral heavies are now 700ms.
~shield crush miss recovery changed to 800ms.
~remove ability to GB her from wake up after being tripped by her.

Valk already has some what of a decent kit. But is just far too punishable. Recovery change on spear sweep is two fold. 800ms recovery still lets it be fairly punishable in 1v1 but less harsh in a team scenario. and GB immune means she won't be hard punished for using the most important aspect of her kit. Light into heavy combo gives her another option to access her bread and butter spear sweep. Zone change and neutral heavy changes make them more viable options all around like most standard heros.

Raider:
~Stunning tap cancels now have tracking.
~Side lights are 500ms.
~Gains light into heavy combo.
~Can soft feint heavies into stampede charge.
~can follow up stunning tap with raiders fury.

First change is to address the fact that dodging completely avoids any stunning tap mix up. Second change is to sort of help raiders neutral game. You have a psuedo mind game with someone with letting raw lights fly instead of a heavy cancel. This cancel works better if you've blinded them. It's similar to zerks old neutral mind game but on a slower scale with blind. So this helps that some what. Light into heavy combo gives him 4 options. Light into heavy, light into heavy cancel for stunning tap. Light into heavy cancel stampede charge. And light into heavy into raiders fury. Essentially addressing his neutral game woes. Soft feinting into stampede charge fits thematically because he's a grappler hero. And would give a 3rd tactic into getting stampede charge. Letting raiders fury come from a stunning tap confirmed hit just adds to his mix up game.

I believe that wraps it up. I didn't add highlander because I honestly think he's perfect where he's at. I didn't touch on feats because that's a whole other bag. Finally I just want to remind you that I mainly duel. I tried making suggestions to help outside of duel. And again these are just to round out the kits. The bare minimum to make them passable in duels. The devs if they choose to can rework heros as they see fit. Thank you so much for reading.

kanuzira
04-07-2018, 08:19 PM
I always say you dont truely know your hero untill you're rep 10. As i can see why you think it would work it wouldnt really be the solution, in my opinion. but i am very glad you took the time to eveluate each hero and made your suggestions.

Hormly
04-07-2018, 08:32 PM
Your warlord suggestions angered me.

Don't listen to this man devs! Hes a crazy person! 😄

TheTool85
04-07-2018, 08:42 PM
So this is my final piece of this work. I had initially set out to rep 2 all heros (and put a third rep on heros I already have 2 on) to gain a better understanding of the heros and their matchups. Sadly due to lack of lag comp I became incredibly frustrated and quit playing till lag comp is in. That being said I still spent some time playing VS bots and searching the internet for general opinions on heros/tactics heros use. I will fully admit this won't be as polished or well done as I wanted. But I really wanted to dump this thread out there so I feel like I can let go from For Honor and take a well deserved break till things pick up again. To remind you these are rebalances. Not reworks. I'm not saying that the devs should not give reworks to all OG heros like kensei or conq. The idea is these are to be bare minimum changes to complete the kit in case the devs decide not to rework them.

Warden:
~removal of stagger on whiff of GB if it takes you OOS.
~Lights are not interrupted on block.
~Heavy finisher is unblockable and uninterruptable.
~Fixed issue where a fully charged bash didn't give top heavy.

2 of these changes are to fix clunky parts of his kit that effect his performance negatively without actually adding to his gameplay.
While the other 2 seek to double down on Wardens style. Lights not being interrupted on block allow Warden to get similar pressure that he gets with his bash mix up when the opponent is OOS. But in normal play. And giving his heavy finisher the Berzerker treatment enhances the gameplay of that tactic already. But forces the opponent to actually risk something instead of standing and waiting. I can see maybe having to tone the heavy finisher damage down a little to compensate for it's new strengths.

Centurion:
~health buff to 130.
~jumping heavy is now GB immune, unblockable, and guarantees an uncharged heavy if landed.
~Kick can now be canceled 100ms into the dodge but keeps the same window of delay.
~Neutral heavy feint is sped up to be the standard quickness of other heavy feints.
~Left side light now does 15 damage like the rest of his lights

Health buff is to compensate for the fact that he's weaker overall in the offensive department as a side effect of season 5's changes. I believed the original health value was made to be assassin like due to his offensive pressure. Since he now lacks that I think a health buff is more than fair. Jumping heavy changes make it a decent tool in a gank and give it at least some niche use in 1v1. Gave some what of a conq treatment to his kick as he has in OOS some pressure with his kick. But keeping the same delay window makes sure it stays just as avoidable for people who have muscle memory against it. Last change is a qol to make standard feint bait games with him actually doable. And since he's primarily about that heavy game it would be imo a sizable buff for him. Last one is a bug fix.

Gladiator:
~zone can no longer be canceled.
~Guard decay is brought up to shinobi's level.
~Skewer can be activated from neutral and ignores armor.
~Blocking a side dash attack no longer gives a GB. But blocking top still does.

Zone due to it's animation and nature is just far too powerful. Removing the cancel gives a greater window to punish as someone who properly spaces can avoid and then attack. or avoid and parry. and since the second part is a heavy it still wouldn't be massively bad for glad. But this still retains the power of the zone due to the beginning bash and how it's animated. Shinobi's guard decay still requires a degree of decent timing but isn't too hard to do. Glads basically means he's extra screwed by combo heros. This change will give him a fighting chance against them without majorly buffing his defensive game much. Skewer from neutral gives him better feint options which hell need after a zone nerf. and ignoring armor makes sense because it functions as a grab if landed. His side dash hits are weird from the get go and are kind of poor at avoiding things to begin with. Shouldn't give a big punish. However his forward dash is really strong and quick. Thus I think the GB punishment should stay.

Peacekeeper:
~Can now soft feint heavies in combos to bleed cancel and GB.
~All bleeds she procs are treated as the same allowing them to stack with eachother.
~Bleed cancel poke damage is buffed to 12-15. Bleed damage itself stays the same.
~Back dash distance brought in line with the rest of the assassins.
~Deflect bleed poke now can be followed up with a heavy input that takes the remaining bleed damage (if opponent is bleeding) and deals it in one hit. ending the bleed. The attack damage of the heavy itself is minor.

Peacekeeper is strong due to her option select with zone. Admittingly I didn't nerf this because i'm not confident in how to do so a smart way. It should absolutely be nerfed. And these changes are to buff her so she's got a decent kit after. So assume when reading these changes this is after her option select zone has been nerfed.

Conq:
~Bashes no longer drain stamina on OOS opponent. But slightly delay it instead. Meaning someone who is OOS will get into their non OOS sooner before conq burns out of his own stamina.
~Zone no longer gets full block automatically. only blocks from the direction of your widget when you initiate zone.
~shield uppercut now has good tracking on back dashes as well.

Upon some reading i've found out that conq's varied bash is beaten by anyone with a dodge attack or 600ms or better dodge recovery. So my original idea to nerf it was not needed. This still retains conqs OOS threat. Just not as much as it was. Zone was too strong. I rather like the ability to cancel it on the first hit now. But being able to defend from all angles meant unless you were zerker with a top heavy finisher or you parried that first hit it was unpunishable. This still gives him some defense. Just not total immunity. finally since shield uppercut had poor forward tracking and didn't beat dash attacks it was left to be very situational. This at least gives it a little bit more use.

Lawbringer:
~Shove on block is removed.
~dash shove is 100ms faster.
~blocked heavies now give shove.
~Top unblockable is guaranteed on light parries and has armor.
~Long arm can now be used in place of a move in combo. Is 100ms faster in combo.
~Neutral long arm has armor.
~Make way is unblockable and does 30 damage.
~impaling riposte now carries you a shorter distance.

Shove on block just goes against the grain of combat. We shouldn't be harshly punishing people who block. For most of the player base countering the light after shove was too unreasonable. Removing it is the best option. To compensate for this removal his shove from neutral is faster so he can occasionally use that to chip instead. giving him more shove opportunities during combos keeps lawbringers presence a threat but not an overpowering one damage wise. Top unblockable changes are to give it consistency and a place in a gank/team fight. Adding long arm in as an option to combos gives him more options mid combo without making the LB or the player have to learn new combos and making it faster makes it more reliable in a combo. Neutral armor addition is to make it easier to use in a team fight where LB shines. Making make way an unblockable gives another option in team fights with respectable damage. and impaling riposte is far too strong. at worst a splat nailed you 50 damage on any parry and at best was an insta kill with the environment. These will still be options for LB. but now the positioning has to be better. Meaning his other options have a chance to be used without taking anything away from LB.

Aramusha:
~Top heavy from Blade blockade is now guaranteed on lights and still works on heavy finishers. But does not work against most heavies.
~Give some tracking to his Blade blockade side heavies.
~Back dash distance buffed. Back dash recovery changed to 700ms.

Buffing aramusha's combos in anyway just would make things too frustrating for lower tiers and do very little for high tier. Buffing blade blockade seemed obvious since that's where the rest of his kit lies. The added tracking means people can't just back dash out of the mix up. and buffing his back dash doesn't do him much in terms of offense. But it means he can at least escape some pressure.


Orochi:
~Riptide strike has proper I frames and carries you a few steps forward.
~Dodge attacks are now heavies and do slightly more damage.
~Storm rush has I frames on start up, can be canceled later into it's animation, and can be soft feinted into dodge attacks which make those dodge attacks faster than normal.
~Orochi now has a light>light>heavy combo. If that heavy is inputed on a side it's unblockable. it's feintable.
~Feinting into a side light makes the side light faster.
~Throw distance slightly buffed.

Riptide and storm rush need I frames to be considered viable options for whiff punishing which is what Orochi is mainly about. Dodge attacks are now heavies because such easily baited and telegraphed moves generally shouldn't receive such a huge punishment. Feint into GB is already a big punish on assassins if you read them right. other storm rush changes give orochi some mix up game and a bit more use to his dash attacks. Which would let him dodge things in a team fight without slapping armor on him. I chose to give a new combo instead of making the third light in his triple light combo unblockable just for ease of coding. And it plays into his current feint games. Feinting into a faster side light is similar to zerk and gives his side lights a use while being creative rather than speeding it up normally. it adds to his mix up game as well. Increased throw distance lets Orochi have access to some unique punishes with his kit. He already has these options but the spacing is too hard.

Kensei:
~Soft feinting in a chain allows you to delay his options.
~Pommel gains side tracking.
~Swift strike can't be delayed anymore.

Giving kensei the ability to delay his feint options in combo rewards him for going further into combo instead of just going for easy unblockable cancels only. Giving pommel side tracking means he cant be cheesed by 500ms and 600ms recovery heros who dodge to the side on reaction to heavy indicator and avoid all soft feints. Swift strike being delayable didn't really help him much in the grand scheme of things but it did make him a lot more annoying in group fights/casual play. So removing it won't really harm him performance wise but make things easier on the average playerbase.


Shugoki:
~No longer has passive armor.
~Better recovery after charged heavies.
~Better dodge distance across the board.
~Goki takes reduced damage from neutral attacks but takes standard damage from comboed moves.
~Goki now has armor on Heavy attacks.
~Takes less time for goki to charge a heavy to unblockable state.
~Demons embrace now has a set damage and health return. No longer one hits. Gives him passive armor on landing it. And no health penalty if he misses. (old armor works as it did before. meaning it can take one hit and not stun him. will have to land another DE to get it back.)
~Demon ball can now knock down someone and ledge someone if they're OOS.

Goki is meant to be "the tank" but how he did it was through very brain dead play. Was unfun to do and unfun to play against. Demons embrace was a very unfun move as well for both sides. Changes made to goki retain his tank status in interesting non intrusive ways. Demon ball now has a niche use. And heavy buffs mean he's got incentive to go on the offensive and risk things instead of waiting around.

Nobushi:
~Can now land right side heavy on wall splat.
~Hidden stance no longer pauses stamina regeneration.

First fix is just silly to even be a thing. and this second change lets bushi's be more playful instead of stalling out due to the harsh 4 seconds of waiting after using HS. Bushi has to heavily rely on feinting in order to get anywhere. And that often runs her stamina pool enough as is. This just means the pace of the fight will be faster.

Shinobi:
~Side dash kick and roll forward kick can now splat.
~Quad dash is now a feature.
~Kick after quad dash is now easier input wise.
~Can now roll in on a blocked heavy.
~Parrying a ranged heavy/cgbing a ranged GB brings shinobi much closer.
~Splatting someone with roll in kick gives enough stun to guarantee ranged GB.

Giving both kicks splat capability means both kicks become more useful. the dodge kick for ganks/team fights and the roll in kick for his own 1v1 strength.
Making quad dash and kick after quad dash easier to do input wise doubles down on his gimmick of mobility without actually making him directly more powerful. Rolling in on a blocked heavy just makes sense if we're to make his roll kick have a bigger purpose. But by letting him get pulled in closer not only makes punishes against him more consistent for the whole cast but also means his ranged hits are not just safe with the new buffs. Giving the ability to get your insta ranged GB a guarantee on that kick means it makes more use of his sickle rain beyond whiff punishing high recovery attacks. Overall his changes buff his mobility and threat but also keeps him in check.

Shaman:
~Can only attempt to bite twice per bleed proc.
~Whiffed bite can only be canceled into wild cats rage. If that WCR misses there is front loaded recovery. Making a punish on it easy for the entire cast.
~Bite damage dropped by 10 damage.
~Back dash distance brought in line with other assassins.
~fixed inconsistency of pounce pushing enemies too far to follow up with lights.
~fixed wild cats rage indicator issues.

Changes aimed at bringing down bites annoyingness without nerfing it too hard. Back dash nerf to make her less insane. Unsure if those 2 bugs are fixed. so decided to add them.

Berzerker:
~Reduce stamina cost on backwards zone.
~Side dodges are now heavies. Damage stays the same.
~Removal of armor from feinted neutral lights.
~Can cancel a neutral light into dash.

Stamina cost on backwards zone is too much of an ask. Despite it being hard to punish it's very finicky and has very niche use. There was no reason to increase the stamina cost. As mentioned with orochi dash attacks are easily baited and shouldn't be punished so harshly on a reaction. Didn't buff their damage like rochi's because zerk is about getting into combos. Not getting away with quick good damage. Armor on feinted neutral lights is too much of an ask for majority of players to deal with. due to zerks animations the speed alone is enough for most players even good ones to struggle blocking consistently. Armor in this instance is just overkill. I specify neutral lights to avoid flicker issues with his new fast feinted into lights. he already had a semi mind game with random thrown lights/heavies from neutral. this change brings that back to an extent.

Warlord:
~Slightly increased damage on poke after landing headbutt and headbutt gets slightly better tracking.
~Parry counter now guarantees the follow up attack again. slight bump to damage.

Warlord just needed some slight buffs to remain as competitive as he should be.

Valk:
~light into heavy combo.
~Side dash recoveries buffed to 600ms.
~Spear sweep recovery is buffed to 600ms. and is GB immune.
~Zone first hit is 600ms. second hit is 700ms.
~neutral heavies are now 700ms.

Valk already has some what of a decent kit. But is just far too punishable. Recovery change on spear sweep is two fold. 600ms recovery still lets it be fairly punishable in 1v1 but less harsh in a team scenario. and GB immune means she won't be hard punished for using the most important aspect of her kit. Light into heavy combo gives her another option to access her bread and butter spear sweep. Zone change and neutral heavy changes make them more viable options all around like most standard heros.

I believe that wraps it up. I didn't add highlander because I honestly think he's perfect where he's at. I didn't touch on feats because that's a whole other bag. Finally I just want to remind you that I mainly duel. I tried making suggestions to help outside of duel. And again these are just to round out the kits. The bare minimum to make them passable in duels. The devs if they choose to can rework heros as they see fit. Thank you so much for reading.

Thanks for the work you've done here. May i ask why heroes like Raider or Glad are missing? Is it due to you haven't touched them yet or because you think they are just as fine how they are like Highlander?
EDIT: sorry just overread the Gladiator part of yours...

Felheric
04-07-2018, 08:56 PM
Really like your work, Orochi changes sound really well. Hope devs will listen

Knight_Raime
04-07-2018, 10:42 PM
I always say you dont truely know your hero untill you're rep 10. As i can see why you think it would work it wouldnt really be the solution, in my opinion. but i am very glad you took the time to eveluate each hero and made your suggestions.

ideally I would have a significant amount of time on all heros. So I get where you are coming from.


Your warlord suggestions angered me.

Don't listen to this man devs! Hes a crazy person! ��

How every helpful feedback. Explain to me what you believe warlords weaknesses are and what he needs.
Or explain why my suggestions are bad. Just something beyond this.

Knight_Raime
04-07-2018, 10:44 PM
Thanks for the work you've done here. May i ask why heroes like Raider or Glad are missing? Is it due to you haven't touched them yet or because you think they are just as fine how they are like Highlander?
EDIT: sorry just overread the Gladiator part of yours...

I knew I was forgetting one hero. Raider. I didn't mean to leave him out. When i'm home for the night later tonight i'll add him up there. sorry bout that.

Knight_Raime
04-07-2018, 10:47 PM
Really like your work, Orochi changes sound really well. Hope devs will listen

thanks for the feedback!

BTTrinity
04-07-2018, 10:50 PM
I like this post, a lot... Agree with pretty much all of it (Skeptical about Lawbringer and Gladiators changes)

Warden I feel needs a full "Kensei Style" rework

Nobushi's changes are something I'd ask for as well, didnt know the side-heavy was a thing.. never go for it because top heavy, for her id also like to see the ability to use cobra and sidewinder strikes maybe 200-300ms later into the dodge.. Make it a bit more lenient as far as dodge-attacks go.

Aramusha I think could use hyper armor on his heavy-finisher-soft-feints...

Between Ara and Zerk, I think Ara should be more focused toward hyper armor while Zerk should be more about his unblockables... Right now, they're pretty much the same thing but Zerk is strictly better in almost every aspect.

kanuzira
04-07-2018, 11:09 PM
I like this post, a lot... Agree with pretty much all of it (Skeptical about Lawbringer and Gladiators changes)

Warden I feel needs a full "Kensei Style" rework

Nobushi's changes are something I'd ask for as well, didnt know the side-heavy was a thing.. never go for it because top heavy, for her id also like to see the ability to use cobra and sidewinder strikes maybe 200-300ms later into the dodge.. Make it a bit more lenient as far as dodge-attacks go.

Aramusha I think could use hyper armor on his heavy-finisher-soft-feints...

Between Ara and Zerk, I think Ara should be more focused toward hyper armor while Zerk should be more about his unblockables... Right now, they're pretty much the same thing but Zerk is strictly better in almost every aspect.


For me the zone of glad needs a change and the toe stab needs to do stamina instead of damage since you can then real use it for it's purpose (making people fall) and not for an extra boost of your light attack.

For LB nothing would really work for him that is suggested here since it doesnt take away the original problem (no way to attack / the stare off)

Knight_Raime
04-07-2018, 11:24 PM
I like this post, a lot... Agree with pretty much all of it (Skeptical about Lawbringer and Gladiators changes)

Warden I feel needs a full "Kensei Style" rework

Nobushi's changes are something I'd ask for as well, didnt know the side-heavy was a thing.. never go for it because top heavy, for her id also like to see the ability to use cobra and sidewinder strikes maybe 200-300ms later into the dodge.. Make it a bit more lenient as far as dodge-attacks go.

Aramusha I think could use hyper armor on his heavy-finisher-soft-feints...

Between Ara and Zerk, I think Ara should be more focused toward hyper armor while Zerk should be more about his unblockables... Right now, they're pretty much the same thing but Zerk is strictly better in almost every aspect.

Yeah skewer from neutral might be a bit too strong tbh.
Yeah for whatever reason either off of a parry or a splat you can't get a heavy from one specific side for literally no good reason.
I'd like to see how bushi played out after my suggested HS buff to see if she'd need further tweaking.

Not sure how i'd feel about giving ara armor. Since his combo is truly infinite/meant to feel long. Versus zerker where it can be infinite but feels more like short bursty combos. So zerk being able to more reliably land his burst makes sense with armor. where as I don't think buffing mushu's combo is a good idea at all. I once proposed giving him an unblockable from his combo if he landed a heavy and then tried to heavy finisher that side again (wouldn't be deadly feintable) as that's telegraphed to heck. But i'm not sure if it would be enough that it wouldn't feel overwhelming for average players. So I decided to leave it out.

Knight_Raime
04-07-2018, 11:26 PM
For me the zone of glad needs a change and the toe stab needs to do stamina instead of damage since you can then real use it for it's purpose (making people fall) and not for an extra boost of your light attack.

For LB nothing would really work for him that is suggested here since it doesnt take away the original problem (no way to attack / the stare off)

Some heros are indeed flawed fundamentally if you're trying to make every hero conform to a certain aspect. I don't think there is really anything wrong with having heros like LB or aramusha relying on the enemy to make a mistake. But some people are completely against that because "no counter to turtles." Which just loops into the whole discussion about turtling and how effective it should/shouldn't be.

THE_MAD_KlNG
04-08-2018, 12:09 AM
Everything you said about the LB just makes him worse for no reason at all and you don't give anything that will properly compensate for everything you your trying to take away.dev

Tirik22x
04-08-2018, 12:23 AM
I love it. +1

Cliff_001
04-08-2018, 12:29 AM
As to warden, never experienced the gb and charged sb issue before but obviously it would be good to fix. Lights being uninterruptible to blocking would never happen because that is breaking a core part of the gameplay. Heavy finisher being unblockable and having armor isn't too bad of an idea but he needs more than that, also it being a finisher makes in kind of difficult to use considering how hard it is to initiate and apply pressure as warden from neutral. I feel like he needs more than this for him to be effective. Personally I would like them to scrap the sb in general and go a totally different direction with the character.

BTTrinity
04-08-2018, 03:15 AM
Yeah skewer from neutral might be a bit too strong tbh.
Yeah for whatever reason either off of a parry or a splat you can't get a heavy from one specific side for literally no good reason.
I'd like to see how bushi played out after my suggested HS buff to see if she'd need further tweaking.

Not sure how i'd feel about giving ara armor. Since his combo is truly infinite/meant to feel long. Versus zerker where it can be infinite but feels more like short bursty combos. So zerk being able to more reliably land his burst makes sense with armor. where as I don't think buffing mushu's combo is a good idea at all. I once proposed giving him an unblockable from his combo if he landed a heavy and then tried to heavy finisher that side again (wouldn't be deadly feintable) as that's telegraphed to heck. But i'm not sure if it would be enough that it wouldn't feel overwhelming for average players. So I decided to leave it out.

Yeah, glad scares me lmao... I dont like the thought of making anything on him stronger xD

That is definitely odd..... I dont play LB, so I dont know much about him but damn thats no bueno.

I personally would rather see the dodge attack change happen to Nobushi first because HS is already pretty good, its cost is (Somewhat) justifiable... However, her dodge attacks are very reactable and are very hard to go on the offensive with.... therefore I think they should be defensive tools.... The way Nobushi is about spacing and what not, I feel like by nature she should be a counter attacker... Whats the point of having dodge attacks that you cant dodge with.

You're definitely right about that ara change, it probably will only frustrate low-avg players while doing nothing in top tier.

Tirik22x
04-08-2018, 03:31 AM
I would like to see Cent receive a dodge attack similar to Valkyrie. That would allow him to not just rely on parries, and make him a bit more dynamic and fun to play.

But yes, he definitely needs a few points of additional health imo

Knight_Raime
04-08-2018, 11:06 AM
Everything you said about the LB just makes him worse for no reason at all and you don't give anything that will properly compensate for everything you your trying to take away.dev

I don't see how giving him almost entirely buffs with one minor nerf and one major ish means i've universally ruined him.
Perhaps you should probably stop crutching on shove on block and actually learn to use his kit.

Knight_Raime
04-08-2018, 11:09 AM
As to warden, never experienced the gb and charged sb issue before but obviously it would be good to fix. Lights being uninterruptible to blocking would never happen because that is breaking a core part of the gameplay. Heavy finisher being unblockable and having armor isn't too bad of an idea but he needs more than that, also it being a finisher makes in kind of difficult to use considering how hard it is to initiate and apply pressure as warden from neutral. I feel like he needs more than this for him to be effective. Personally I would like them to scrap the sb in general and go a totally different direction with the character.

Well the GB stagger only happens if you whiff and it puts you OOS. it's quite annoying.
I know it's probably a big ask but it combined with wardens new finisher changes means he can chain right into the finisher even if blocked. Which sounds strong I know. But it would also let him go into SB on block so he'd be able to pressure as well as he does when OOS.

I too would like a far less bash reliant warden but who knows if that's even in the scope of the devs wants.

Knight_Raime
04-08-2018, 11:11 AM
Yeah, glad scares me lmao... I dont like the thought of making anything on him stronger xD

That is definitely odd..... I dont play LB, so I dont know much about him but damn thats no bueno.

I personally would rather see the dodge attack change happen to Nobushi first because HS is already pretty good, its cost is (Somewhat) justifiable... However, her dodge attacks are very reactable and are very hard to go on the offensive with.... therefore I think they should be defensive tools.... The way Nobushi is about spacing and what not, I feel like by nature she should be a counter attacker... Whats the point of having dodge attacks that you cant dodge with.

You're definitely right about that ara change, it probably will only frustrate low-avg players while doing nothing in top tier.

I was always under the assumption that her dodges are meant to be misleading and flow into her being some what aggressive due to the recovery canceling properties they have. IMO if bushi could properly dodge with them it would take away use from hidden stance.

Playing_Mantis
04-08-2018, 12:22 PM
please don't give cent a cent a dodge attack like the valk.. this would break the game!!! cent is fine the way he is. his punish is already very very high on the dps. i think he's in a fine spot finally.

BTTrinity
04-08-2018, 01:01 PM
I was always under the assumption that her dodges are meant to be misleading and flow into her being some what aggressive due to the recovery canceling properties they have. IMO if bushi could properly dodge with them it would take away use from hidden stance.

Which is what were aiming for with these reworks, we want the OG to have useful kits in every location. Besides, you still can feint lights into HS and the double poke bleed combo is pretty vicious, not to mention you can throw a kick too right out of HS and wallsplat mofo's for a good top heavy punish... So I think sidewinder being her slightly-harder-to-use-side-heavy-punish would be fair.

Also, Im not asking for PK/Kensei style dodge attacks where I make a full 180 behind the opponent.... Im asking for maybe an extra 100-300ms.

Knight_Raime
04-08-2018, 01:32 PM
please don't give cent a cent a dodge attack like the valk.. this would break the game!!! cent is fine the way he is. his punish is already very very high on the dps. i think he's in a fine spot finally.

He's mostly in a fine spot. I still think my buffs should happen. or at least some of them. But I agree no on the dodge attack. doesn't fit him imo.


Which is what were aiming for with these reworks, we want the OG to have useful kits in every location. Besides, you still can feint lights into HS and the double poke bleed combo is pretty vicious, not to mention you can throw a kick too right out of HS and wallsplat mofo's for a good top heavy punish... So I think sidewinder being her slightly-harder-to-use-side-heavy-punish would be fair.

Also, Im not asking for PK/Kensei style dodge attacks where I make a full 180 behind the opponent.... Im asking for maybe an extra 100-300ms.

I suppose if she relied less on her HS for dodging then it wouldn't need a buff. Not entirely sure how I feel about that overall but I guess i'm not 100% against that.
I would think the animation would look a little weird for dodge lights if you increased the dodge distance. Because it's like a poke. But the dodge heavy would look fine since it's a sweep. at least how i'm seeing it in my head anyway.

BTTrinity
04-08-2018, 01:37 PM
I suppose if she relied less on her HS for dodging then it wouldn't need a buff. Not entirely sure how I feel about that overall but I guess i'm not 100% against that.
I would think the animation would look a little weird for dodge lights if you increased the dodge distance. Because it's like a poke. But the dodge heavy would look fine since it's a sweep. at least how i'm seeing it in my head anyway.

Yeah, I can see the poke being pretty awkward.... Hell I wouldnt doubt if that was the exact reason if they made it a short-distance-dodge-attack

Knight_Raime
04-08-2018, 01:44 PM
Yeah, I can see the poke being pretty awkward.... Hell I wouldnt doubt if that was the exact reason if they made it a short-distance-dodge-attack

Maybe keep the poke still a short hop but the sweep cover more distance dodge wise?

BTTrinity
04-08-2018, 01:46 PM
Maybe keep the poke still a short hop but the sweep cover more distance dodge wise?

Not a bad idea.

Leaves some wiggle room for a HS buff :P

Knight_Raime
04-08-2018, 01:47 PM
Not a bad idea.

Leaves some wiggle room for a HS buff :P

editing my OP now :)

Jazz117Volkov
04-08-2018, 07:58 PM
There's some good ideas here.

Concerning Warden; the charged SB heavy issue definitely needs attention, but I'm not sure uninterruptible lights are the answer to the other problems. What I think the Warden could use is a heavy into SB soft-feint. (Would spice up the SB mix-up a lot.) And for the shoulder bash itself, it needs hyper armour at both levels of charge and it should only be vulnerable to interruption and guardbreak during the feint window, after that, hyper armour should kick in. This way the Warden can use the shoulder bash to trade, especially with assassins, whose attack recoveries are typically fast enough to interrupt an SB dodge counter.

And instead of generic heavy chain finishers being unblockable (like your suggestion), I would say only top heavies following an SB should be unblockable, and give it a special animation with a late feint window. A charged shoulder bash should also soft-cancel into this special top heavy, similar to Valk's shield charge into top light. It can also be executed with a forward dash + top heavy (help with chasing), and in all cases it can be feinted (crushing counter bait).

edit: to paraphrase and expand something I posted elsewhere: the Shoulder Bash should receive diminishing returns. Only the 1st two hits should guarantee damage; to put that in terms of stun frames: 1st hit is a 600 ms stun, 2nd hit is a 500 ms stun, 3rd hit is 400 ms, and so on. Doing it this way, and giving the Warden a shoulder bash into unblockable option would I think make the kit more readable (less spamy) and more frightening to deal with.

And a final thought. An advanced part of the Warden playstyle is switching to top guard before you land a guard break, so when you throw and get a wallsplat, you get a guaranteed top heavy (against every hero: conq. and some assassins recover fast enough to avoid the top heavy if you guard switch after the throw). I think this should be rewarded by chaining throws into that special unblockable top heavy (it wouldn't chain if you guard switch at the wrong time). This gives the Warden further mix-up options too; SB cancel into guard break, throw into top heavy, cancel into CC, etc.

UbiInsulin
04-08-2018, 09:03 PM
Thanks Raime for putting all of this together and spurring the discussion here. :)

Pirus_
04-08-2018, 09:52 PM
I like your Orochi ideas, but with this changes it will keep him in "run around and try to catch someone on feint"-style. If he will have to fit in the game right now, which are supposely heading into fast-paced battles, he needs some kind of opener. As long he is an assasing and counter-attacker he shouldn't have a opener from "nothing" (like centurion kick or nobushi quad dash kick). Likewise, he should have martial-art-like knee to the stomach after side heavy, clean or blocked. In your suggestion he would be able to hit that kick after dash heavy, also, clean or blocked.

Knight_Raime
04-09-2018, 09:35 AM
There's some good ideas here.

Concerning Warden; the charged SB heavy issue definitely needs attention, but I'm not sure uninterruptible lights are the answer to the other problems. What I think the Warden could use is a heavy into SB soft-feint. (Would spice up the SB mix-up a lot.) And for the shoulder bash itself, it needs hyper armour at both levels of charge and it should only be vulnerable to interruption and guardbreak during the feint window, after that, hyper armour should kick in. This way the Warden can use the shoulder bash to trade, especially with assassins, whose attack recoveries are typically fast enough to interrupt an SB dodge counter.

And instead of generic heavy chain finishers being unblockable (like your suggestion), I would say only top heavies following an SB should be unblockable, and give it a special animation with a late feint window. A charged shoulder bash should also soft-cancel into this special top heavy, similar to Valk's shield charge into top light. It can also be executed with a forward dash + top heavy (help with chasing), and in all cases it can be feinted (crushing counter bait).

edit: to paraphrase and expand something I posted elsewhere: the Shoulder Bash should receive diminishing returns. Only the 1st two hits should guarantee damage; to put that in terms of stun frames: 1st hit is a 600 ms stun, 2nd hit is a 500 ms stun, 3rd hit is 400 ms, and so on. Doing it this way, and giving the Warden a shoulder bash into unblockable option would I think make the kit more readable (less spamy) and more frightening to deal with.

And a final thought. An advanced part of the Warden playstyle is switching to top guard before you land a guard break, so when you throw and get a wallsplat, you get a guaranteed top heavy (against every hero: conq. and some assassins recover fast enough to avoid the top heavy if you guard switch after the throw). I think this should be rewarded by chaining throws into that special unblockable top heavy (it wouldn't chain if you guard switch at the wrong time). This gives the Warden further mix-up options too; SB cancel into guard break, throw into top heavy, cancel into CC, etc.

I will admit that comboed lights on block for warden on it's own feels out of place and does break game rules. It was merely a suggestion my friend (whos a warden main) had when we were talking about updating all heros with small tweaks instead of reworks. He wants to keep wardens identity the same without making him "faster spammy UB nonsense." Heavy soft feint into SB would deff be something to look out for if he's already got in on you. But It wouldn't help him get in easier.

If I understand you properly His SB wouldn't have armor on start up. and would still be vulnerable to being hit out of it and a GB until he's passed the point of where he can't cancel anymore? If so that might make his SB pressure more reliable in 4's. But I can't see it doing much if anything in duels. I would be fine with limiting the unblockable to only top. But I still think any heavy finisher he does should have armor.

Your next suggestion is you soft feinting out of the bash? If this were made an option I wouldn't be comfortable with the soft feint into his unblockable heavy. that's 2 unblockables in a relatively short situation. Even if it would have reasonable counters to it I feel like it would just come off as exactly what people don't want. If we were to go with the soft feint option for SB I would rather it be his top light. That way instead of canceling and parrying he could cancel into a potential CC. And due to the inherent nature of trying to stop an SB with an attack I feel it wouldn't be easily parry bait. Thus (imo) making CC a more reliable option in higher skill tiers.

Deminishing returns is something i've wanted for the game in general and actually proposed it waaay back when they were still looking into how to nerf encounters that had multiple centurions attacking an individual. Last part was a little bit confusing. Basically speaking you want a top heavy after a throw to be the unblockable heavy? I'm unsure this would be needed to be honest. I feel like it would just overload his kit with all other changes in mind (yours plus mine.) It's guaranteed if you don't guard switch would make the unblockable not needed. and if you do mess up and switch I don't think you should get something to potentially help your mess up. But that's just me.

I appreciate the feedback though. I'd like to run it by my warden friend before I edit my OP though if that's alright with you. Also something i'd like you to ponder is a way to potentially help him get in from neutral easier. Because that was the entire reason for my special light change. I suppose it wouldn't need to happen if we combined my suggestions and yours together. But at this point i'm just curious and want to pick your brain about it for funsies.

Knight_Raime
04-09-2018, 09:36 AM
Thanks Raime for putting all of this together and spurring the discussion here. :)

anytime! Got anything to contribute yourself or perhaps some comments on my suggestions for a hero or 2 that you particularly enjoy? (:

Knight_Raime
04-09-2018, 09:38 AM
I like your Orochi ideas, but with this changes it will keep him in "run around and try to catch someone on feint"-style. If he will have to fit in the game right now, which are supposely heading into fast-paced battles, he needs some kind of opener. As long he is an assasing and counter-attacker he shouldn't have a opener from "nothing" (like centurion kick or nobushi quad dash kick). Likewise, he should have martial-art-like knee to the stomach after side heavy, clean or blocked. In your suggestion he would be able to hit that kick after dash heavy, also, clean or blocked.

I hear you. But the point of these suggestions were to not change the style of play/identity of the hero. I have always felt Orochi is the purest form of counter. Really big on whiff punishing.
Some heros should get openers or easier ways to play in neutral. But not all heros imo. and I think rochi's top lights alone are good enough for his neutral game. and a few of my suggestions play into that while still keeping his identity as a counter attacker.

Jazz117Volkov
04-09-2018, 10:58 AM
I will admit that comboed lights on block for warden on it's own feels out of place and does break game rules. It was merely a suggestion my friend (whos a warden main) had when we were talking about updating all heros with small tweaks instead of reworks. He wants to keep wardens identity the same without making him "faster spammy UB nonsense." Speaking as also a Warden main, I appreciate that sentiment.

Uninterruptible light aren't entirely rule-breaking; Highlander's offensive lights are basically that, they just don't combo into anything. My main reasons for shooting it down are, warden side lights are often parried on reaction, and a lot of wardens will deliberately whiff a light to punish a response with SB. I think the uninterruptible lights would be under-utilized because of the parry threat (and experienced players watch for Warden's top light like a hawk anyway).


Heavy soft feint into SB would deff be something to look out for if he's already got in on you. But It wouldn't help him get in easier.This comes from one of my opening tactics though; I often feint side into dash + SB. It's pretty reliable against average-good players.


If I understand you properly His SB wouldn't have armor on start up. and would still be vulnerable to being hit out of it and a GB until he's passed the point of where he can't cancel anymore? If so that might make his SB pressure more reliable in 4's. But I can't see it doing much if anything in duels.Yeah, that's it. Coupling that with the soft-feint would let you charge your SB through your opponents side dash attacks, effectively trading 40 dmg.


I would be fine with limiting the unblockable to only top. But I still think any heavy finisher he does should have armor.I can agree with that.


Your next suggestion is you soft feinting out of the bash? If this were made an option I wouldn't be comfortable with the soft feint into his unblockable heavy. that's 2 unblockables in a relatively short situation. Even if it would have reasonable counters to it I feel like it would just come off as exactly what people don't want. If we were to go with the soft feint option for SB I would rather it be his top light. That way instead of canceling and parrying he could cancel into a potential CC. And due to the inherent nature of trying to stop an SB with an attack I feel it wouldn't be easily parry bait. Thus (imo) making CC a more reliable option in higher skill tiers.I will admit, I was just starting to layer in more ideas here as they came to me, so it could be a bit much, but I will point out that I meant only canceling out of a charged SB, regular SB cancels into GB.

Beyond that, soft canceling into top-light would be useless at full charge; if someone's still in the way, you're effectively scaling your dmg from 40 down to 15, and if they're out the way, it'll miss. Either way, no one tries to stop a charged bash with a top light (I realize that's not really what you were imagining on this point).


Deminishing returns is something i've wanted for the game in general and actually proposed it waaay back when they were still looking into how to nerf encounters that had multiple centurions attacking an individual. Last part was a little bit confusing. Basically speaking you want a top heavy after a throw to be the unblockable heavy? I'm unsure this would be needed to be honest. I feel like it would just overload his kit with all other changes in mind (yours plus mine.) It's guaranteed if you don't guard switch would make the unblockable not needed. and if you do mess up and switch I don't think you should get something to potentially help your mess up. But that's just me.Uh...yeah, I was just rambling at that point. Basically, as a Warden, you want to be in top guard before your guard break lands if you intend to wallsplat, if you don't, you don't want your guard on top. Warden's heavy guard switch after a throw is ssllloooowwwww. I was just thinking, as part of the advanced Warden play style, where you place your guard according to your next action, you could chain into an unblockable top heavy from throw, giving you an option to possibly net more than 30 dmg without a wall.

If this is still confusing, I apologize xD


I appreciate the feedback though. I'd like to run it by my warden friend before I edit my OP though if that's alright with you. Also something i'd like you to ponder is a way to potentially help him get in from neutral easier. Because that was the entire reason for my special light change. I suppose it wouldn't need to happen if we combined my suggestions and yours together. But at this point i'm just curious and want to pick your brain about it for funsies.Hey, no worries mate. I'm more than happy to talk adjustments and tactics. Like I said before, the main way I see wardens (and I myself use it occasionally) open opponents in 1v1 is deliberately whiff a light. Cancel SB into zone is popular too. But I'll put a bit of thought specifically into it.

Knight_Raime
04-09-2018, 01:03 PM
@Jazz117Volkov

That's a true statement. Side lights really only land during his SB mix up because the person fails to try and do what they wanted to escape or they fell for the bait of it being a side heavy instead (since side heavy looks almost exactly the same as side light in start up.) And top light is just parried by anyone decent if warden just throws them frequently. I suppose I shouldn't be trying to look to add a way for him to open up people via attacking. If the opponent is being relatively offensive standard baiting works and CC is occasionally possible if you bait.

That is an interesting tactic. I will have to try that. I only have 2-3 reps into warden. But my main way of playing him has always been random thrown zone from neutral + top lights to interrupt. occasionally feinting a top heavy either in attempts to bait a CC/parry or immediately follow up the feint with a top light or zone. (ala rochi play.) I really only bash someone close to OOS.

Hmm I see. the armor change plus your feint heavy into SB makes sense when combined together. Feel silly for not seeing that. I agree with you then. those should deff be changes. I'll run them by my friend just to see what he thinks though. Oh I see. So what you're saying is that If I don't fully commit to the bash (aka cancel it in the short cancel window) I can only cancel it into a GB. But if I go past that cancel window I can soft feint into the top heavy unblockable. I still raise my issue of having 2 unblockable indicators so close to eachother. I personally wouldn't mind it but you know. Trying to think of everyone.

How about...instead of it being an unblockable it was just a quicker top heavy that had armor? That way you have the option of calling someone's bluff if they're standing around waiting to dodge. by either letting it fly or canceling into a heavy? I suppose we could still just go with it being unblockable. Highlander does have kick or toss into an unblockable heavy. and most people seem fine with that. And nah I get you. I still think it would be a bit too much though.

appreciate it.

Roseguard_Cpt
04-09-2018, 01:45 PM
While I like most of the ideas, I'm still one of the players that believes offense and defense should be equally viable, so making the Centurion jump unblockable still isn't quite an idea I like as it already has armor and with the speed of his heavies it's nice to have something to deflect. Also making it so Warden's lights aren't stopped by block would allow too much ease of access to the UB heavy finisher; I might make the heavy finisher of the Heavy, Heavy combo unblockable however as you can whiff the first and bait with the second.
Or what if we were to make unblockables deflectable so assassins can use their core mechanics. It would still work similar to the current system because currently unblockables are used to bait parries, now it would be used to bait dodge/deflect attempts

Knight_Raime
04-09-2018, 02:29 PM
While I like most of the ideas, I'm still one of the players that believes offense and defense should be equally viable, so making the Centurion jump unblockable still isn't quite an idea I like as it already has armor and with the speed of his heavies it's nice to have something to deflect. Also making it so Warden's lights aren't stopped by block would allow too much ease of access to the UB heavy finisher; I might make the heavy finisher of the Heavy, Heavy combo unblockable however as you can whiff the first and bait with the second.
Or what if we were to make unblockables deflectable so assassins can use their core mechanics. It would still work similar to the current system because currently unblockables are used to bait parries, now it would be used to bait dodge/deflect attempts

Admittingly I make the jump attack on centurion unblockable as I was scrambling to make it viable. But I could easily settle for it being GB immune.
As I mentioned to another warden that change to lights was born out of me trying to let wardens get in easier on people. But I can concede that it's not a good change.
I don't like the idea of limiting his unblockable finisher to only the heavy heavy combo. While you could whiff it it just wouldn't be practical. I am fine with regulating the unblockable finisher to only top though.

As I just mentioned in my other thread I actually want assassins to ditch standard parry and turn their deflect into their parry. So it works the exact same way as parry does but it's on dodge instead of from attacking.

Roseguard_Cpt
04-09-2018, 03:56 PM
I would be fine with the Cent jump being GB immune (I didn't know I could GB him during it, so it's all the same for me) but perhaps for Warden give him a mixup option instead of an unblockable. By mixup option I mean soft feinting any heavy finisher into shoulder bash. He would start the swing but then pull the blade back and charge forward in traditional shoulder bash style, this bash could not be canceled into GB. The heavy would be used as parry bait to help lead into the shoulder bash, as the opponent may simply dodge the usual Light Light SB, but will still remain punishable if the Wardens make themselves too easy to read. I've got a rep 7 warden but I'm far from a main, I'm curious what more experienced Wardens would think about such an idea

Cliff_001
04-09-2018, 04:43 PM
I would be fine with the Cent jump being GB immune (I didn't know I could GB him during it, so it's all the same for me) but perhaps for Warden give him a mixup option instead of an unblockable. By mixup option I mean soft feinting any heavy finisher into shoulder bash. He would start the swing but then pull the blade back and charge forward in traditional shoulder bash style, this bash could not be canceled into GB. The heavy would be used as parry bait to help lead into the shoulder bash, as the opponent may simply dodge the usual Light Light SB, but will still remain punishable if the Wardens make themselves too easy to read. I've got a rep 7 warden but I'm far from a main, I'm curious what more experienced Wardens would think about such an idea
Why would anyone try and parry it they could just block top and wait for the sb and dodge it. If it a was a unblockable soft feint then it would start to force people to make a choice. Its kind of like how people complain about aramusha how you can just block all of his combos but raider forces a reaction because of his unblockable.

Draco067
04-09-2018, 06:47 PM
As I just mentioned in my other thread I actually want assassins to ditch standard parry and turn their deflect into their parry. So it works the exact same way as parry does but it's on dodge instead of from attacking.

I've seen a few suggestions to remove parry from assassins altogether, personally I think that would be a be too limiting.

However, a suggestion I made in another thread related to assassin's parry/deflects. Essentially assassins wouldn't have a light-parry punish, throw it out, it is no more. Now I can parry any of their attacks (and I dont mean unblockables) and I can only get a light attack from it. The trade off off course being that assassins can deflect unblockables, which should be a thing anyways. I would think this change would certainly make deflects more valuable for punishes, if you want the higher damage go for the deflect, but a parry is still viable in a bad situation, specifically 4v4.