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View Full Version : Straight talk about the FMB to Oleg and IL2 team



XyZspineZyX
03-23-2003, 12:27 AM
The FMB probably isn't a priority, but a few points in defense of an improved FMB should be made.

Good mission scenarios cannot ever be built capably by a Computer Campaign Generator. The most obvious reason is the timing of events is critical to a good visual and sound experience. I sometimes spend hours on one mission just getting the timing correct for mission events.

Why is timing so important?

Examples may be the best way to explain...

If aircraft are bombing ships...the way the aircraft turn, the descent rate, the distance between waypoints, where the ships are at that precise moment can mean the difference between having 2 out of 12 bombers shot down, all 12 bombers shot down, zero ships sunk, 2 ships sunk or 5 ships sunk.

The time of day, weather, cloud height,etc. can be critical to enjoying missions. The wrong time of day with the wrong weather makes for lousy missions.

When you have ground attacks going on and the aircraft enter the battle area, where the vehicles or tanks have moved can make the difference in a good mission.

I have a penchant for history, so I guess the ground, naval and air combat gets a better picture in my mind as I create missions. I just enjoy creating different missions that are interesting and exciting. I spend hours in the process of just working through all the little kinks, pairing of objects, timing of events, play and re-play the mission dozens of times. Frequently, I build a mission that I fly a couple of times and then re-play on autopilot another ten times just to enjoy the action scenario as it plays out.

We need a constantly improved mission builder to use the excellent objects and landscapes you already have in the IL2/FB. It would be very good, if you would improve the FMB in the first patch to the FB. There are many mission builders that would be willing to share ideas. Just a few improvements with each patch will make a big difference to mission builders. We, misison builders, can accept incremental improvements in the FMB. We realize the big crowd is always crying for more aircraft.

I used to do MSFT CFS2. When I started that's all I wanted was something new to fly. I had over 20 gig of zipped aircraft files and was always looking for more. It was a cup that could not be filled. When I got into mission building I realized there was just so much more to Air combat flight simulation than flying and shooting.

When I came to IL2 I realized there was even more to this CFS with all the ground and naval objects. We just need a good tool to use all these great resouces.

An excellent FMB combined with all the excellent objects and aircraft in the IL2/FB would attract an entirely different type of user to the IL2/FB, and still be great for the users always asking for new aircraft and skins.

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XyZspineZyX
03-23-2003, 12:27 AM
The FMB probably isn't a priority, but a few points in defense of an improved FMB should be made.

Good mission scenarios cannot ever be built capably by a Computer Campaign Generator. The most obvious reason is the timing of events is critical to a good visual and sound experience. I sometimes spend hours on one mission just getting the timing correct for mission events.

Why is timing so important?

Examples may be the best way to explain...

If aircraft are bombing ships...the way the aircraft turn, the descent rate, the distance between waypoints, where the ships are at that precise moment can mean the difference between having 2 out of 12 bombers shot down, all 12 bombers shot down, zero ships sunk, 2 ships sunk or 5 ships sunk.

The time of day, weather, cloud height,etc. can be critical to enjoying missions. The wrong time of day with the wrong weather makes for lousy missions.

When you have ground attacks going on and the aircraft enter the battle area, where the vehicles or tanks have moved can make the difference in a good mission.

I have a penchant for history, so I guess the ground, naval and air combat gets a better picture in my mind as I create missions. I just enjoy creating different missions that are interesting and exciting. I spend hours in the process of just working through all the little kinks, pairing of objects, timing of events, play and re-play the mission dozens of times. Frequently, I build a mission that I fly a couple of times and then re-play on autopilot another ten times just to enjoy the action scenario as it plays out.

We need a constantly improved mission builder to use the excellent objects and landscapes you already have in the IL2/FB. It would be very good, if you would improve the FMB in the first patch to the FB. There are many mission builders that would be willing to share ideas. Just a few improvements with each patch will make a big difference to mission builders. We, misison builders, can accept incremental improvements in the FMB. We realize the big crowd is always crying for more aircraft.

I used to do MSFT CFS2. When I started that's all I wanted was something new to fly. I had over 20 gig of zipped aircraft files and was always looking for more. It was a cup that could not be filled. When I got into mission building I realized there was just so much more to Air combat flight simulation than flying and shooting.

When I came to IL2 I realized there was even more to this CFS with all the ground and naval objects. We just need a good tool to use all these great resouces.

An excellent FMB combined with all the excellent objects and aircraft in the IL2/FB would attract an entirely different type of user to the IL2/FB, and still be great for the users always asking for new aircraft and skins.

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XyZspineZyX
03-23-2003, 01:12 AM
I agree.

Without the FMB, it all gets pretty boring after a while.

I know the on line crowd pretty much rules, and there's nothing at all wrong with that. I even play on line a bit myself.

However, what nearmiss is saying is true. The FMB is a really great aspect of this game that appears to receive little attention.

And I agree also about not asking for any great deal of attention. 'Some' consideration for implementing a few details here and there would be nice though.

In the FMB, little things can go a long way. Some examples would be the ability to have AI planes taxi to the runway for take off. This way if you're able to fight your way to the base in time, you can catch them at the scram instead of having to loiter until they appear out of thin air on the runway.

I have no idea how difficult it would be to add a 'taxi' waypoint to takeoff, land, etc., but it would be nice.

Another possible idea would be to have 'conditional' waypoints. If then situations, i.e., if damaged, RTB. If no more enemy, RTB, things like that.

I also spend more time in the FMB watching the battles I create than actually flying them right now. My feeling about the FMB is that it's good.....'almost' there.

Any attention at all would be appreciated. I can also agree with nearmiss, that we're a patient bunch.


Thanks,



Message Edited on 03/23/0312:13AM by OkdGuy

XyZspineZyX
03-23-2003, 01:16 AM
Yo! Oleg..............please give us some .........

triggers for events and spawning of objects

more control of trains...speed.....start/stop/re-start.etc.

a seperate key for the static camera views

I'm sure other mission builders will add to this list

XyZspineZyX
03-23-2003, 06:40 AM
I have been so immersed in the QMB and just enjoying the sim I havent even gotten to the FMB yet. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
03-23-2003, 08:22 AM
I agree with you Nearmiss.

Full mission builder is more important than most people think to the life span of the simulation.

Here are my suggestions :

1. Add a date to the mission. Weather conditions and light conditions (sunset, sunrise) being adjusted with the season rather than with the map.

2. Add a taxi ability. Even a scripted one...

3. Rearrange the objects in the builder in order to find them easily.

4. Add the possibility to add new air strips.

5. Add the possibility for some AI planes to land and take off just after a while, to portray the "pick a partisan" scenario.

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XyZspineZyX
03-23-2003, 04:29 PM
NN_Tym wrote:
- I agree with you Nearmiss.
-
- Full mission builder is more important than most
- people think to the life span of the simulation.
-
- Here are my suggestions :
-
- 1. Add a date to the mission. Weather conditions and
- light conditions (sunset, sunrise) being adjusted
- with the season rather than with the map.
-
- 2. Add a taxi ability. Even a scripted one...
-
- 3. Rearrange the objects in the builder in order to
- find them easily.
-
- 4. Add the possibility to add new air strips.
-
- 5. Add the possibility for some AI planes to land
- and take off just after a while, to portray the
- "pick a partisan" scenario.
-

In total agreement here, NN Tym and Nearmiss, plus:

Can we please have a de-spawning waypoint?

I've missions written where I want friendly planes in the air to start, but not further on.
Landing them is no good because they need to be away from the airfield that I'm protecting before it is bombed.
Having them shot down by misplaced AAA works, but the voice messages (cries for help) are so intrusive.

BTW, what about a feature where we can only hear our own squad/flight radio chatter rather than the whole of the Eastern Front? Offline I mean. Apologies if this has been implemented in FB but this is only my 3rd FB day being UK based.

Thanks for a great sim, hope that it will still get extras like IL-2 did.

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XyZspineZyX
03-24-2003, 08:50 AM
Very good stuff. My own wishlist would include:

Being able to pick from set piece packages. Like AAA defending airbases. Instead of having to set up all the pieces every mission I make, it would be nice to pick from "Airbase defense" packages. Setting up a ground attack? Pick an Infantry or Armor package that comes with several objects.
This would so speed up the mission making.

Also, having planes enter the mission when certain events take place. Like having planes scramble from an airbase if you pass within a certain user-defined distance.

And most importantly, fix that bug where planes that enter coop games a few minutes after the coop begins are invisible to everyone but the host. That would greatly improve online missions.

249th~Wildcard
Intel Officer
249thIAP

IRON SKIES
As real as you want it to be.

XyZspineZyX
03-24-2003, 04:58 PM
Agree with pretty much everything being said here. My own personal wish is the "taxi" option as described above.
In the same vein of Pentallion's post, maybe some user-defined sets so we could have our own preferred mix of units, etc.

By the way, FMB is rapidly becoming my favorite part of the sim, maybe because I'm such a lousy pilot.

Pags

XyZspineZyX
03-25-2003, 02:48 AM
Yes, add the trigger on a waypoint to start planes taxiing for take off and response is exactly what I had in mind.

Something else that would add a lot to the building of the missions, is a copy and paste function.

Example. I set a flight of bombers to fly waypoints to the target and back. If you could copy that entire flight, weapons, waypoints, etc., and paste it into a position right next to the first, it would keep the build flow going better.

You would still want to tweak, but the basic flight path and timing would be there with a click.

XyZspineZyX
03-25-2003, 05:08 AM
I'd like a right click on an active object to pop a menu to select red, blue, or none. Having to reset a hunderd objects is a thurough pain in the posterior. Better yet, have every follow on one stay set the same team as the prior.

XyZspineZyX
03-25-2003, 05:42 AM
Very good thread!

I have a few suggestions. Please, Give Dogfight maps the same functionality as the coop maps. (except for AI)

1. Ability to set Targets. A simple bomb symbol on map.

2. Make ALL objects scorable(is that a word?)

3. Enable a time limit to the map. (say to run a 4 hour war)

4. The ability to log player statistics to a txt file for review. (number of deaths, objects destroyed, planes flown)


The whole reason for this is to be able to do a "RedBaron" type of war. A four to six hour session with XX amount of different types of planes depending on date. The first session consisting of strictly recon. No bombing. Object to get as many recon photos back to your drome(base). This will determine the targets you may bomb in the next session. At the same time you must locate and stop recon planes from getting photos back to their base. The recon plane type is designated in advance.

The next session would start the bombing with escorts and attacks on enemy bases. Thats where the strategies come in to play and the 4-6 hours of intense fighting goes on.

This way, You go into this thing knowing you are going to be flying for 4-6 hours. Not like the coops where you WAIT for 10-30 minutes to get started only to have someone crash into you on the runway and you are DONE for the duration of the mission! Then you start the waiting for the next one to get organized. Generally you get about 1/3 of your time at the computer to actually fly.

I just dont know why this is such a difficult request. Many of us asked many times while FB was being developed.

PF-Coastie

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Message Edited on 03/24/0311:43PM by PF_Coastie

XyZspineZyX
03-25-2003, 10:42 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^BUMP^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

PF-Coastie

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XyZspineZyX
03-26-2003, 03:33 AM
Great post Nearmiss and some great ideas here! I especially like the one regarding 'default' air-defense packages to add to airbases, etc, much like you can add a convoy instead of placing each truck/jeep individually.

My addition would be a percentage chance of objects appearing assigned to a grouop of objects. This allows you to add unpredictability and be surprised by your own missions. Both this and the former above were present in the excellent editors of Janes F15 and F18.

I imagine that the FMB code might be difficult to add to without substantial rewrites however. Who knows, they did do it for FB!

Cheers,
Simon

XyZspineZyX
03-26-2003, 06:48 AM
1 Thing that would sure simplify theFMB would nOT be *Triggers*,But they would allow more *event* details.However triggers tend to be complex until learned properly.I,for one,would love to see the objects listed in order,and A type of object title to aid in searching for said objects,ie: Winter buildings:1 to 33,Airfield construction..33 to 45,landscaping:45to 56,Vehicles:57to 67 etc etc.As it stands now if you forget or don't write down the number of a particular object ya have to go 1by 1 from 1 to 308 to find the particular object you are looking for.That or go to previously built missoins and find each object,write down it's corresponding number,and do so for each one.HMMM I may do that anyway LOL!!! Other than that I love the FMB in FB,specially the new objects,ships and Frontline markers.....

XyZspineZyX
03-26-2003, 07:31 AM
This will probably never be implemented/heard, but my top 5 priority enhancements to the FMB would be:

1) TRIGGERS - allow user to define events in a mission that depend on other events occuring. (i.e. enemy base is 50% destroyed, a schwarm of ME-262s are spawned 20km to the East and vector in for defense). Tie this in with a random percentage (i.e. 25% chance of schwarm being spawned) along with WAVES (1-10 waves of 262s being spawned) and you change the replay value of missions drastically for the better.

2) TEMPLATES - on each map in the FMB, provide a function that will randomly auto generate a scenario (user first selects type such as Escort, CAP, intercept, base defense, etc.) that the user can then tweak and fill in any gaps instead of starting always from a blank map or previously saved mission.

3) DRAG n SELECT, COPY, PASTE - Allow the mouse pointer to select multiple objects on the map at once and then right-click to either cut or copy and then allow to paste the selected objects elsewhere on the map.

4) USER DEFINABLE OBJECT GROUPS - As mentioned in this thread, allow the user to define sets of objects (even if they're just static) that can later be chosen in the object viewer to be added to a new mission with just 1-click instead of placing each of the objects in the group manually as it is now. Kinda like how vehicle convoys are added now...

5) GIVE DROP-DOWN BOXES IN THE GAME WINDOWS BEHAVIOUR -
Ok, Ok, this is more of a just a pet-peeve of mine but I'm tired of all the drop-down boxes in the game closing instantly when I scroll their lists outside their borders. The windows behaviour is to keep the drop-down list open until the user either clicks a selection or clicks once outside of the drop-down box. I can't tell you how many times I've cursed under my breath when after selecting an item from a 50+ list having the list reset on me because my mouse pointer accidentally drifted outside the drop-down's border, lol.
*******

With the exception of point #5, these suggestions would vastly improve not only the FMB but the gameplay of user created missions.

BTW, while you're at it, can we get some kill/ death stats instead of that score system when we hold the 'S' key online? Pretty please???? Ah come on, really, please? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


EDIT:
6) Allow the user to view the text info from the main menu's object viewer on an aircraft/ship/vehicle from within the FMB.

Message Edited on 03/26/0301:35AM by Rook_336

XyZspineZyX
03-26-2003, 08:34 PM
BUMP for some constructive discussion and exposure...

XyZspineZyX
03-26-2003, 09:28 PM
What a great post this is. I also enjoy a lot build missions, and i must say even that i found FB great, the FMB is the part that let me most decepointed, because i was really expecting a lot more of improvements in this area of the sim.
By the way, the FMB is as IMPORTANT for the offline player as the online player. All the missions i made for IL-2, and they must be close to 100 missions, are for playing online. After building some many missions on IL-2, you start to find its wekness and see that it have a lot of limitations. And i beleive the more importants are:

1) the fact that you cant have trigger system

2) At least have some kind a time-out setting for flights, like you have for moving tanks and vehicles, on their take-off waypoint.

3) Set diferent objectives for each flight, and then, if you had a decent debriefing, you see if that this flights succeded on its objective, and the other flgiht didn't succeded on its objectives, and so on.

A good post with a list of requests to improve the FMB can be found in the FMB forum. Some of the requests are very very good.

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XyZspineZyX
03-26-2003, 09:54 PM
This is really a great thread!

1) I really would LOVE to see some kind of scripts (read triggers) in the FMB!

2) Setting targets on a dogfight map should automaticaly enable a special dogfight mode. (curently we're using static camera over pretend targets to see who won...)

3) Enable spawning point/plane.

Anyway I'm supporting most of the previous post on this subject. The FMB could use an overhaul.

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XyZspineZyX
03-27-2003, 03:03 AM
It would also be nice if you could change the markings on static planes, for example Brewsters and Blenheims...
They get German markings.

Wildcards idea with "packages" (air defence, infantry group...) would be very nice...

I asked a couple of months ago about triggers/events (like in CFS2 MB) and the response seamed to be no...

However a trigger/event system would greatly improve it, you could add the feel of improvisation into single/coop missions with for example target changes, ground troops calling for help (triggered radio messege) etc... etc...

That kind of feel I only get in online wars, playing single player missions now is mostly: fly to target and destroy it, get jumped by enemy fighters and destroy them, get home/die...

It could be so much better! But a trigger/event system would totally change the mission files I guess so its probably pretty complicated...

XyZspineZyX
03-27-2003, 03:12 PM
Agree, a trigger system seem most likely to be something difficult to implement and probably requires a huge change on the code. However, maybe adding the mentioned option of a time-out seting on the take-off waypoint for a flight, working a little with coordination, coudl give you the cahnce to have flights that take of later in the mission, when you are returning home, and so on.
Still, probably this also would require a lot of code work to implement.

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XyZspineZyX
03-27-2003, 06:38 PM
I've always fancied some movable artillery, e.g. towed behind trucks. They could have 'unlimbering/limbering' waypoints. That way you would never know exactly where the AA guns would be, and maybe you could catch and destroy them before they set up.
It would bring some random factors into missions.

'The world is your lobster' - Arthur Daley

XyZspineZyX
04-01-2003, 06:53 PM
bump

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XyZspineZyX
04-11-2003, 03:10 AM
b

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XyZspineZyX
04-11-2003, 03:13 PM
Another Friday development update, with aircraft add-ons.

When are we going to get some FMB updates? We've all been making as much outta the FMB with the same old tools for how long now?

Add-on aircraft just aren't getting any of my attention any more. If there was any access into the flight models, we'd have a kazillion 3rd party guys supplying aircraft.

We need some solid improvements in the FMB, as I said before we'll be pleased for just a few things occassionally.

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XyZspineZyX
04-24-2003, 08:00 PM
It is so difficult building exciting and sensible missions with the FMB as it is now.

Today I was building missions and I had 5 flights of 4 each BF190s attacking an airbase. I created a flak infested airbase, and those stupid AI just kept flying around in the flak until they were all smoking or crashing.

We need trigger commands and in this case it could be a global command to all attacking aircraft given by key stroke to return to base or next waypoint or the damaged number of aircraft exceeds a certain % they'd break off the attack. As it is the aircraft just fly around and pound the enemy "Kamikaze style" and then eventually crash.

When the 190s hit aircraft taking off the ones behind just run right into the burning plane in front of them. If a plane belly lands on the airbase runway, the following planes will just come right in on top of the crashed plane and destroy themselves. If you land too many aircraft on one airbase, the late landing aircraft will taxi right into the previously landed aircraft and explode.

We've got all these great objects, aircraft, artillery, armor and we really need an improved FMB to deal with the great things we've got.

I was thinking the stupid vehicles have sense enough to go around, why can't the planes behind burning planes go around.

We need triggers badly to get this sim close to mission confident. I spend hours just tweaking the timing to get aircraft and other moving objects to the right place at the right time. The way to apply timing well is in missions where travel to waypoints is guaranteed. If there is any type of combat or non-compliance with timing of waypoints --as set in the FMB - all the timing in the mission is off.

If you want to bring additional aircraft or objects in late in the mission, you just can't because you don't know what the AI or you'll be able to do timing wise. I was working on a mission and thought to bring in paratroops to land on an airbase after my flights had blasted the airbase, but I couldn't because I couldn't be sure of the timing.

Also, I'd like to spawn and de-spawn objects at specific times in order to keep good FPS and create viable exciting missions.

This is not whining I'm just pointing out more reasons for making needed improvements in the FMB.

---------------- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


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XyZspineZyX
04-25-2003, 08:35 AM
Dear Oleg!!
I am in the middle of the Finnish campaign. After the first dozen missions it became boring. Sometimes the timing was out, and two groups of planes which were probably meant to meet, and fight, didn't do so, so it became just a boring escort out and back. I love Il2 and FB, but ultimately they will only be as good as the missions which are flown. Being able to fly every plane in the world, does not remain interesting for long, if there isn't anything to do once you are up there. Once you have got the basics of flight under your belt, and things start to become instinctive, the actual aircraft you are in is less important to what you are doing with it. The same as if you go for a ride in your car, or motorcycle................an interesting route is important. If you had to drive around, and around a stadium, it would quickly become boring..............unless you had some pals to race and goof about with..........................a similarity here to the guys who fly online dogfights, and enjoy meeting their pals for a rough and tumble session.
I'm willing to bet that the majority of IL2 and FB players, do so off-line. There are probably quite a few who are not even connected to the internet, and have never seen the web sites and forums. For all users, however, I believe that the mission is paramount. the campaigns provided, do a reasonable job at introducing a new player to some of the different aircraft types and their roles, and getting the hang of how it all works. But for the experienced player, these computer generated missions are not going to be of interest for long. There are some web sites in the community which are doing a good job trying to produce new stuff....................but all of them and us rely on the only tool we have for the job..............the Full Mission Builder.
There are many of us who enjoy mission building, and are prepared to put in many hours to produce a good one. But we can only go so far, as we are restricted by what is available to us in the FMB.
Adding extra goodies to dress up the environment...'Objects'.........is very nice, but is only eye-candy. To be fun, a mission needs.......excitement.........surprise.........un certainty...........fear.........satisfaction.
This needs some kind of 'trigger' or branching event, so that you do not know what is going to happen for sure.
It is possible to write very long and complex missions, with lots happening, and things going on for a long time, but the limitation is that once our ammo/fuel is used up.........all we can do is land and watch the action. Personally, the thing i would like most of all would be the ability to land and re-arm/ re-fuel then take-off and get back into action. A single mission could be played for many hours, with time-outs which are available for vehicles and planes (AI), events can be strung-out to cover a long time. The other thing i would like would be to have destroyed vehicles/tanks/aircraft etc. available as 'objects' to be placed...............and if they could be left destroyed and carried over in campaigns, like the buildings/bridges , that would be fantastic.
If from what I have read, there are some good things in the CFS2 editor, is it really vastly difficult to add them to this sim...........which in my humble opinion, outshines them all.
Everyone using il2/FB depends on good missions for total enjoyment.................................'Give us the TOOLS...........and we will Finish the Job!'

'loon'

XyZspineZyX
04-25-2003, 02:08 PM
I only ask the developer that is in charge of the FMB participate in the Full Mission Builder forum.

There are many questions and suggestions to make the FMB better, which in turn gives pilots unlimited options with FB.

S!
609IAP_Recon

Forgotten Wars Virtual War
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XyZspineZyX
04-25-2003, 03:23 PM
It is indeed a pity that such a superb flight sim as FB is does not have an accordingly developed mission builder. Complaints seem to come in two flavors: those that refer to FMB interface (better organisation of object menus, ability to select several objects and group them, etc) and the logic of the game (triggers). I don't know much about programming, but I believe the former would be more easily implemented in an already finished sim than the latter. It is the latter, though, that really matters as to improve the long term playability of the sim and the fun it delivers to the player. I am aware that not everybody plays with the same spirit, there are arcade players piloting FB planes, but I have always thought those are not the ones to whom the sim is addressed. Those that, like me and many, have an interest in history of aviation, want to feel inmersed in that history, and this means not only the beautiful aircraft that already crowd the sim with their so good flight models, but a logical behaviour of those.
A mere trigger system to change flight waypoints depending on level of damage would make such an improvement as no ten new planes can do to the sim. Add distance between objects to triggers and we mission builders will be delivering a new whole world to this sim for years.

Forgotten Battles deserves a better FMB.

Are you here, Mr. Maddox?

Kuikueg

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XyZspineZyX
04-28-2003, 01:58 PM
Bump

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XyZspineZyX
04-28-2003, 02:04 PM
I've noticed several postings about the 3rd version of Black Cross/Red Star coming out soon.

That is really great news, and the Black Cross/Red Star books would be great to help build exciting realistically based missions. There isn't much information floating around in the USA about the Russian/German airwar in WW2.



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XyZspineZyX
04-28-2003, 02:52 PM
Oleg's replied to a thread on the GD forum, so BUMP for this one.

'Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.' /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
04-28-2003, 06:36 PM
Another Bump.

I like the suggestion about the participation on this thread of the guy in charge of the FMB.
It could help a lot to know what coudl be improved, and what couldn't be improved, on the FMB.

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XyZspineZyX
05-01-2003, 04:28 PM
I've been working on this simple mission, 3 flights of 4 each Ju-88s w/4xSC250s attack a town. My player aircraft takes off to intercept and escort the bombers just before they drop their bombs.

I've been messing with this thing for over an hour trying to get the timing just right so the player gets to be right at the site when all the bombs start dropping. A great sight at night.

It is so frustrating to have to move waypoints around, and set aircraft speeds for timing purposes. I could have done the whole thing in about 10 minutes with triggers.

------------------ /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
05-01-2003, 04:47 PM
If neither flight encounter opossition on the way to their target, this are the kind of thing more easy to coordinate.
My advice is that you dont change the flights speed, change only waypoints slightly until you reach the coordinated time you are looking for.
Its true what you sid that with triggers it could be made much mor faster, but right now what you are trying to do is possible, quite easily, working a little with the waypoints.
The thing gets a lot harder, if not impossible, when any of the flgihts encounter opposition before reaching the target, because the combat could last 2 minutes, or 20 minutes.
Same thing if you want to coordinate opposition when a flight is returning to its airbase.

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XyZspineZyX
05-06-2003, 09:41 PM
bump

XyZspineZyX
05-06-2003, 11:27 PM
Rook_336 wrote:
- 4) USER DEFINABLE OBJECT GROUPS - As mentioned in
- this thread, allow the user to define sets of
- objects (even if they're just static) that can later
- be chosen in the object viewer to be added to a new
- mission with just 1-click instead of placing each of
- the objects in the group manually as it is now.
- Kinda like how vehicle convoys are added now...
-


I've asked for this before in IL-2 and think it would add great depth and replay value to missions. Here's the concept:

Say you're designing a convoy hunting mission. The objective is to find and destroy a specific convoy. Unfortunately you only know the general location of the convoy and must actively search for it in the vicinity. To do this properly the FMB should allow us to:

1. Create a convoy package with all the necessary ships.

2. Add multiple examples of this package at different locations.

3. Make all the packages part of a convoy "group". In this case the packages are all the same, but they don't have to be to be part of a group.

4. At the start of the mission, using time to seed a randomizer, only one of the packages in the group is picked to appear. All the others never show up in the mission.

5. Now everytime we fly the mission we can get any of the dispersed packages so the convoy is not always at the same location.

6. For tracks to work properly just have the mission store the randomizer's result from when the mission was run.


This would open up a huge number of possibilities. eg. varying degrees of resistance, random routes for bombers that you must intercept, random ground force strength in battles - all elements vital to "the fog of war".

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XyZspineZyX
05-07-2003, 01:59 AM
Jetbuff

There is one element of Jane's WW2 Fighters I like along the lines you've written.

You can have divisions, which has a pre-defined group of weapons and objects. You place them and they go to work.
The number of objects is pretty large, but they only go into action after they are triggered. So, the users FPS is not hit until the divisions are triggered.

We need a large number of triggers, and only one of those triggers needs to be a randomizer. CFS3 is addressing mission building with a random spawn. A random spawn is a poor approach to better timing. Human beings build the best missions...because we can make the missions exciting at precisely the time and place they influence the player/s best. These triggers should also turn off things, despawn objects, etc.

Events within missions need to be predicated upon other things happening, or not happening. In other words there should be a comprehensive set of logic tools for building missions.

There is no way to time anything in the FMB, except at the start of missions or before any engagements that could cause a time variance.

FMB just makes the whole process of building missions time consuming, and generally frustrating. Frustrating, especially after you've worked on a mission for several hours just trying to get the timing right for the player/s.

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XyZspineZyX
05-07-2003, 04:33 AM
Yes triggers would be nice too. However, the randomness feature is not directly related.

Speaking of other sims a perfect example of both triggers AND random grouping is the FMB in Jane's F/A-18E. Great replay value on those missions.

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XyZspineZyX
05-07-2003, 11:54 PM
Jetbuff wrote:
- Yes triggers would be nice too. However, the
- randomness feature is not directly related.
-
- Speaking of other sims a perfect example of both
- triggers AND random grouping is the FMB in Jane's
- F/A-18E. Great replay value on those missions.

The Jane's F/A-18, Falcon 4.0 are the best, but I just don't enjoy popping target aircraft five miles away. I'm sure I'd get a blast out of it, if I was really in an F-18.

It just seems so surgical and precise, if you know what I mean. I like to see the smoke, fire and an occassional bail out.

I'm just hoping Oleg and the IL2 team will read these postings and give us some better tools in the FMB.

------------------ /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
05-08-2003, 12:01 PM
Amen!

<hr width="400">Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and have their
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XyZspineZyX
05-08-2003, 02:43 PM
is oleg taking any notice of those questions posted here anyways? i havent seen an answer for some time now. i only hope hes doin well /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
05-08-2003, 09:40 PM
JG46_Max

My experience on the boards...there are always lurkers. Just because someone doesn't answer doesn't mean they're not paying attention. No one is trying to malign or hardnose Oleg or the IL2 team. We just want them to know we're patiently waiting from some solid improvements in the FMB.

Importantly, this is the Oleg ReadyRoom. I haven't seen a Tucker Hatfield (MSFT CFS3) RR forum. So, if MSFT is listening to their users you'd never know it.

So, I perceive Oleg does come on this board occassionally...I've actually seen responses from him.

We've got valid issues with the FMB, so at some point Oleg and the IL2 team will address them. Hopefully, in the first FB patch.

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XyZspineZyX
05-08-2003, 11:31 PM
I believe Oleg's is away because of a combination of E-3 and Russian Easter (or something). I'm sure someone is reading though.

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XyZspineZyX
05-09-2003, 06:23 PM
Wow! This is amazing thread. You guys/guyettes are right, FMB is the long term key to success of IL2.

I am trying to research/hack AI behavior to develop HUGE missions that have a campaign flavour--I think. I never tried an official "campaign." Right now, the only way to simulate refuel and rearm is to use unlimited fuel and ammo (but ~not~ invulnerability).

I pull my hair trying to get my mouse on that microscopic zoom tab. Must have a keyboard key to Zoom Out. Amazing that was overlooked!!!

All that empty space on the top menu bar. Should have the *type* of objects listed across that, and one click away, instead of in a scrolling menu/submenus, etc... I've done some Windows programming, and changing interface is not hard to do (although that may depend on your developer software).

XyZspineZyX
05-16-2003, 12:31 AM
bump

XyZspineZyX
05-16-2003, 06:24 AM
I've always been happy with the FMB and building missions and trying them out is what Il-2 & FB is all about when playing offline, well.. for me anyway.

After reading this great thread I realize there is definately room for improvement.

Great stuff guys!!!!

BUMP /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

F19_Choocky

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XyZspineZyX
05-20-2003, 11:13 PM
bump

XyZspineZyX
05-23-2003, 04:03 AM
I've not got 14 hours into 3 missions I've been working on for two days.

I sure hope you guys with IL2 are paying attention. The lack of logic triggers to set timing of events is an enormous time waster. If I'd had Logic triggers those missions wouldn't have taken three hours.

If I had to make a living at this...I'd get another job.

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XyZspineZyX
05-26-2003, 08:59 PM
I appreciate Oleg finally commenting about the patch on a very arrogant and abusive thread. I know the old cliche' about the "Barking dog getting fed first", but to respond to that post was NOT DESERVED neither was the abusive tone of the thread.

Anyway, it appears we're getting close to the release of the first patch for FB it would appear. No one has said a word about any changes in the FMB.

I sure hope some of the IL2-FB developers are working on some programmable logic trigger, flags, events or whatever you want to call them for the FMB.

----------------- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
05-27-2003, 04:12 AM
I would like to see better catorgized items along with many new ones, ground crews working on planes, more radar dishs, I better cliff edge to simulate the cliffs of dover. Also we are is desperate need for placing runways where we want them.

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XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 10:33 PM
bump

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 10:58 PM
Best thread in 12 months. Yep. Hope to see more in this spirit.

XyZspineZyX
06-09-2003, 07:03 PM
Monday, June 9,2003

Finally Oleg has indicated what the patch will include.

Needless to say I'm bummed. Not because we're getting improvements, which I do appreciate. It's because there do not appear to be any planned FMB improvements.

Wouldn't it be great to just hear some encouragement that the IL2-FB team would be improving the FMB in the near term?

To be forthright, the FB didn't do a thing for me over the IL2. The FMB is essentially the same except for some additional objects, which I don't use. I think it'll be hard to pursuade me to spend money on additional upgrades to FB without some changes in the FMB. Still, I realize I'm just one person, and my sphere of influence is just about zilch.

Still, that's the way I'm viewing it now.

I'll give Oleg credit for doing more than anyone else, and the fact that he will actually address his users periodically puts him a quantum leap above everyone else in my book.

I do think it is valid to say there is not a single WW2 combat flight simulation program/game equal to the FB. If one is ever produced with an excellent Mission builder it will be embraced for years as the Falcon 4.0 and Jane's F/A-18 has been.

Recently, I saw copies of Jane's F/A-18 being bid up over $80 on Ebay. It just seems to me the original developers of Jane's are world class stupid. Why they can't find a way to create market opportunites with a product that is still so in demand and enjoyed by users is beyond stupid.

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XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 01:43 PM
Well I've not read different, but what I've read is disappointing.

So far, we're gonna get a patch to fix some issues and anomalies that just need fixing. Second, there is going to be another add-on CD with additional aircraft and possibly another theatre (like FB). No one has mentioned whether it will be a paid for or free add-on.

Well folks, I'm gonna say it in SPADES. I'm looking forward to the patch. I think this is the most outstanding flight sim available without a peer.

HOWEVER, The Full Mission Builder is just so darned lousy all the great planes, maps, objects, ground objects can't take the BORING out of the missions for very long. The FMB was exciting stuff for a while, until I became more proficent with it.

THe IL2-FB is not the only CFS with a lousy mission builder. The MSFT CFS3 mission builder is a lousy dog as well. They have a a random spawner (what a friggin' joke). It looks to me like the people programming these combat flight sims would figure it out. Heck, if they can't figure it out for themselves maybe they should outsource to some third party developers.

If OLEG and crew don't address the FMB, before or in an add-on CD...he's not gonna get another dime from me until something is done to improve the FMB. All the new graphics stuff is great, but the IL2-FB only lets you build the same old boring, predictable missions.

Personally, I love all the airplanes, but exciting missions are more meaningful to the combat flight sim experience. So what, if you get a new aircraft...I've got boxes of combat flight simulators and I can fly (simulate flying) every conceiveable type of aircraft imaginable. Strike Fighters P1, Falcon 4.0, EAW, WW2 Fighters, CFS2, CFS3 1% ....come on when does someone finally figure it out. It's about the whole experience not one friggin airplane or other. I've got enough stuff now in IL2-FB to stay busy for a year, that is, becoming proficient with the different aircraft.

To be honest I've flown a lot of other simulator aircraft, from other CFS softwares that are as good or better than the IL2-FB. So...I just don't understand why new aircraft are such a biggy.

We aren't flying anything...we're simulating flying. No doubt the online simmers are the busy ones on the boards, but the a long life IL2-FB will only be possible with an excellent FMB.

We want to create our own great show, from the great stuff we already have...all we need are some good FMB tools to create some great exciting drama.... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 02:04 PM
The thing I would like most see in FMB:

-National markings for vehicles and static a/c ( custom skins are too much to ask I think /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif )

For example static G.50's in Finnish campaign have german national markings aswell all vehicles. Finland also used captured soviet equipment, for example T-34's which have red stars ingame.

Since most nations had almost similiar national marking in vehicles, using same reduced texture that we have for a/c would be the best solution..

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 12:45 AM
the fmb is extremely limited, they need to checkout the design of novalogics BHD FMB its by far the best one i see with every feature fb needs in thier fmb

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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 10:39 PM
A bump for exasperation sake...

I've spent 2 1/2 days now on two missions. Why because getting the timing correct is a friggin' nightmare. Sure the two missions are about 8 actual missions with minor adjustments in each to place in a campaign so that the player won't get the same mission scenario each time.

Why does it take so long to get the timing right, because if you have the aircraft, objects where you want them at the right time in a mission...you may be flying for 20 minutes just to get to the point of engagement. Afterall, you can't just hop in and be in a good mission with any appeal to realism with a 10 minute hop. You can 8X, but the play thru doesn't really work well, because the FB doesn't play well at 8X. So you have to just play thru, play thru, play thru... until you finally get it as good as you can.

Sure you can eventually come up with something that makes sense, but it takes so much time and patience to get there.
The whole FMB is a "virtue tool", it's teaches you patience /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


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XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 01:49 PM
I am really starting to see the benefit of the 3D View. It is helping me alot in planning stuff in the high Kuban mountains.

However, nearmiss, FMB is missing many tools such as setting orbiting patrol, or much larger area for AI Search-Attack nearest ground target---that 0.7km radius is hard to work with moving ground targets. You may try making missions without need for timing. Thats what I am doing as much as I can.

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 02:37 PM
I don't know if it's been mentioned.

But the following would make the FMB a better tool:

*The ability to select multiple objects, copy and paste.

*As well as the ability to select multiple objects and drag them.

S!
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XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 08:18 PM
Some more features I'd like to see:

# Ability to select multiple objects to change their attributes simultaneously.

# Ability to highlight an area of the map to change attributes/delete all Objects in that area.

# Ability to make armament/fuel settings unchangeable in the briefing for certain missions. What's the point of being able to set ammo to standard and fuel to 100% in the briefing of a mission that is about surviving without ammunition and with 5% fuel?

# Help file available inside the FMB, or at least a list of keyboard shortcuts. How many people are simply not using the mission builder because they don't find out how it works?

# What I miss most is an <h2>undo function</h2> How often have I aligned an object carefully and then deleted it by mistake, just because I hit the wrong key or mouse button ...


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XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 09:50 PM
The FMB comes short in too many areas.

The issues with timing of objects to be at specific places at proper times has finally gotten the best of me.

What I mean to say is this. I have spent hours just getting the timing correct for air, ground or sea objects to be utilized by the player at the precise times they need to be available. I feel like a complete fool when I spend hours doing something that a few logic triggers could resolve in a few minutes at most.

So...I'm not doing much with the FMB anymore. I'm like a lot of users...waiting on the patch!

I've got some pretty good projects to help mission builders in the works, but to be honest I'll have to get a little better motivated to finish them.

I sure hope Oleg and the IL2 team pay attention to the Mission builders and give us some perks...we sure need'em.

To be real honest, if the FMB doesn't get some solid improvements to make mission building easier...I'll probably just go away until it finally gets an overhaul. I complained enough about IL2...because I love the sim. The mission builder,FMB, is a complete exasperation



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nearmiss
02-22-2004, 02:44 PM
bump

An old posting, but we still need an improved FMB and it would be nice to get the attention of the 1C:Maddox team while they're working on the BOB...

So...that BOB = improved FMB as well

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