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View Full Version : Windows VISTA - GOOD or BAD for IL2



FM_Golden_Eagle
01-29-2007, 01:22 PM
I just read an article on Tom's Hardware website about a benchmark on Vista Ultimate version.
They made performance benchmarks with SpecViewperf and the results were absolutely CATASTROPHIC. Up to 90% of performance loss compared to XP. The reason was said due to very poor support of OpenGL by Vista.

I plan to rig a completely new desktop that will have a quadcore with the Nvidia Geforce 8800 GTX card. But I am now wondering if this means that I must say bye bye to Il2 and wait for BOB.

Any ideas?

Gold

FM_Golden_Eagle
01-29-2007, 01:22 PM
I just read an article on Tom's Hardware website about a benchmark on Vista Ultimate version.
They made performance benchmarks with SpecViewperf and the results were absolutely CATASTROPHIC. Up to 90% of performance loss compared to XP. The reason was said due to very poor support of OpenGL by Vista.

I plan to rig a completely new desktop that will have a quadcore with the Nvidia Geforce 8800 GTX card. But I am now wondering if this means that I must say bye bye to Il2 and wait for BOB.

Any ideas?

Gold

No601_prangster
01-29-2007, 01:41 PM
That article blames the problem on the graphics drivers put out by Nvidia and AMD(ATI).

"Vista looks to be an interesting platform for multimedia, productivity and games. Microsoft has put a lot of resources into making Vista look its best. A lot hinges on the hardware vendors. Microsoft may have included basic hardware driver builds so the user experience on the desktop looks cool but it takes a robust driver to get your games right. AMD needs to work on its OpenGL performance as well as work out any kinks I noted along the way. Across the aisle, Nvidia needs to clean up the bugs, such as the driver installer, and places where performance takes the hardest hit. They both have until launch to fix the problems we're seeing now."

VMF-214_HaVoK
01-29-2007, 03:13 PM
Bad for now of course. Possibly better performance in 6 months to 1 year. I would refrain from jumping on the Vista wagon just yet. But thats just me.

crazyivan1970
01-29-2007, 03:16 PM
I tried Sturmo on Vista`s last beta. It was terrible.

TheGhostFiles
01-29-2007, 04:26 PM
Vista+DX10+DX10 Video Cards, will be a new animal.

If you want Vista and want to rebuild, wait for DX10 Video Cards. I understand Vista and "gaming" will be a new design, and much faster.

GF

VW-IceFire
01-29-2007, 04:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheGhostFiles:
Vista+DX10+DX10 Video Cards, will be a new animal.

If you want Vista and want to rebuild, wait for DX10 Video Cards. I understand Vista and "gaming" will be a new design, and much faster.

GF </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It should go Vista+DX10+DX10 Video Cards+DX10 Video Games (in 1.5-3 years before they hit mainstream).

knightflyte
01-29-2007, 04:49 PM
I could be wrong, but I seem to remember hearing somewhere (I think Mystic Puma's interview with Oleg) that BoB will be open GL, and DX 9 based.

I'm not sure what that may mean for the future of the series beyond SoW:BoB. I cant see a development cycle as long as five years while still being Open GL when the OS is DX 10.

LEXX_Luthor
01-29-2007, 05:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I cant see a development cycle as long as five years while still being Open GL when the OS is DX 10. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Linux? Oleg?

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/thumbs.gif

Evil.Merlin
01-29-2007, 11:27 PM
IT works VERY well with IL-2.

With the latest ATI drivers (can't speak for Nvidia, don't use any of those card), which do both DirectX and OpenGL, Vista is just as good as XP under IL-2.

It worked very well in the beta as well, just so long as you were running it in DirectX mode and not OpenGL mode.

From what I've seen running IL-2 at 1024x768, there is no more than a 5% delta between XP and Vista even with immature drivers (ATI just released there first Vista non beta drivers today).

OpenGL is not comparable to anything in DirectX other than Direct3D. DirectX does a LOT more than OpenGL is currently capable of. And even the Direct3D portion of directX has well surpassed OpenGL with it's feature set starting around DirectX 8, and the lead has only grown with DirectX 9 and is going to get much more distant with DirectX 10.

Pollack2006
01-30-2007, 12:04 AM
I heard a rumour many moons ago that Vista would automatically shut down un-needed processes in the background when running games. Is this true?

hobnail
01-30-2007, 12:33 AM
Yep! It deletes Firefox.exe, any Linux distros and and any games that are available on the 360.

Smart OS!

Looking at the benches, you'd be mad to migrate your gaming rig to Vista until at least Q3 '07. Even OS/2 would run better.

KampferAs
01-30-2007, 04:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hobnail:
Even OS/2 would run better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Love ya work!!!

SeaFireLIV
01-30-2007, 06:45 AM
Questions:

Why are we being shovelled this Vista? Do we need it? Is Xp not good enough? Is it a 5 year plan?


I see no reason for this except maybe to give Mr. Gates more cash and us lots of aggro all over again.

x6BL_Brando
01-30-2007, 08:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">aggro all over again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Losing the ability to run Sidewinder software (Version 3.0) with the upgrade 98 to XP was profoundly disappointing to me. It involved losing the shift-functionality (and programming ability) of my recently-purchased (and quite expensive) FF Pro stick. The promised "shims" from M$ that would correct the issue never materialised, and the full functionality of the stick was lost. It took about 6 months as I recall for solid enthusiast-made substitutes to appear, by which time I had migrated (along with the rest of the suckers) to the USB FF2. The shift functionality was never reproduced, afaik, and there went 75 or so, down the pan. The annoying part was that the FF2 wasn't as well-constructed as the Pro which had a solid heft to it. I guess I still have fond memories.....

That's not to suggest it didn't have a silver lining. I wised up and went to CH flightgear, and XP proved to be a great improvement over '98 once it became familiar. But the redundancy factor, and the philosophy of 'needing to buy' a constant supply of new hardware & software was born then. Myself, I won't be leaping aboard the Vista bandwagon any time soon. I 'see' everything I need to make this particular game run (very) well - performance-wise it's smooth & sweet.

DX10 may be the Windows equivalent of the Second Coming - but I'm sure I don't want to drop a thousand-plus pounds on hardware & software to find out. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Not to mention the aggro!

B

RocketDog
01-30-2007, 08:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Evil.Merlin:
IT works VERY well with IL-2.

With the latest ATI drivers (can't speak for Nvidia, don't use any of those card), which do both DirectX and OpenGL, Vista is just as good as XP under IL-2.

It worked very well in the beta as well, just so long as you were running it in DirectX mode and not OpenGL mode.

From what I've seen running IL-2 at 1024x768, there is no more than a 5% delta between XP and Vista even with immature drivers (ATI just released there first Vista non beta drivers today).

OpenGL is not comparable to anything in DirectX other than Direct3D. DirectX does a LOT more than OpenGL is currently capable of. And even the Direct3D portion of directX has well surpassed OpenGL with it's feature set starting around DirectX 8, and the lead has only grown with DirectX 9 and is going to get much more distant with DirectX 10. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm...

The problem for IL-2 is that the best features added to IL-2 over the years are only available under OpenGL. By this I mean the "perfect landscape" animated water, increased view distances and higher-resolution terrain mesh.

When IL-2 was just a young pup there wasn't much difference between how it ran under DirectX or OpenGL, but as time has gone by it's become very much an OpenGL application and if you run it under DirectX it's just missing so much of what makes it attractive.

OpenGL may well be becoming rather limited, but for good or ill that's what IL-2 needs to show its stuff. Personally, I would only consider a move to Vista if it could support the applications that interest me, which at the moment is IL-2 and the Condor gliding simulator.

Cheers,

RD.

Ernst_Rohr
01-30-2007, 08:41 AM
I work in IT, and while I think Vista is GREAT for a business/educational computer right now, I would definately hold off on Vista as your primary gaming rig.

Vista driver support from AMD/NVIDIA is incredibly poor. Nvidia in particular hasnt even bothered to incorporate power managment into their Vista drivers yet, which means gaming on your Vista rig is a really good way to overheat your high dollar video card pretty quickly if you dont have sufficent cooling inside your case.

DX10 really isnt going to make any difference right now, and wont until supporting titles release. So far, thats just Crysis and Age of Conan, both of which will release sometime around Q3 this year. That leaves you with good old DX9 and OpenGL. DX9 works fine on Vista, but the drivers are not opitized yet. OpenGL looks terrible and wont be sorted out for a couple of driver revisions.

I would wait a few months and at least two driver revisions before switching over. Particularly since the processor/mobo market is fixing to go through another round of upgrades again.

Give it six months, wait for the hardware/driver issues to sort themselves out, then take a look.

mortoma1958
01-30-2007, 08:47 AM
If one waits and buys a DX10 card, then will it be backwards compatible with DX.9??? I want to build a new rig soon but will want the ability to run WinXP with DX9 drivers if Vista does not pan out well for gaming. I plan to buy several hard drives and have a CD bay with a quick change so I can run both XP and Vista by simply changing drives. If I get a DX10 card I want it to be able to do XP and DX9 well too...........Thanks in advance for any advice!!!

NonWonderDog
01-30-2007, 10:02 AM
All versions of DirectX are backwards compatible, and all video cards are forwards compatible with new versions of DirectX. That's not going to change. A DirectX 10 card will just allow you to use the new features of DirectX 10. I have no idea what those features are.

BadA1m
01-30-2007, 06:13 PM
The main thing with DX10 will be the ability to use the unified shader architecture on the new DX10 cards most efficiently. At this point a single 8800GTX runs about like two 7900GTX's under XP and DX9- not to shabby.

VW-IceFire
01-30-2007, 07:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma1958:
If one waits and buys a DX10 card, then will it be backwards compatible with DX.9??? I want to build a new rig soon but will want the ability to run WinXP with DX9 drivers if Vista does not pan out well for gaming. I plan to buy several hard drives and have a CD bay with a quick change so I can run both XP and Vista by simply changing drives. If I get a DX10 card I want it to be able to do XP and DX9 well too...........Thanks in advance for any advice!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course it works back in DirectX9. Quite a few have GeForce 8800 cards now which is a DX10 part...but there are no DirectX games and until Vista, no OS'es, to support it either.

rpkiller
02-02-2007, 05:15 AM
Check this article out:

http://firingsquad.com/hardware/windows_vista_aero_glass_performance/

Interesting as it indicates the aero process is sspended when running a game, so having no effect on the game. It does seem likely that current poor games performance is more likely down to immature drivers rather than any bad programming/resource hogging in Vista.

BadA1m
02-02-2007, 06:27 AM
Thks for the

NonWonderDog
02-02-2007, 09:49 AM
DX10 is presumably different enough from DX9 that drivers had to be significantly reworked. As far as I understand it, DX10 is responsible for everything you see on your screen in Vista--even when you're just looking at the desktop (I don't know if this is Aero dependent). This means the fancy Aero interface can be extended to graphics windows containing games! Supposedly, anything can be switched into a window without much loss in performance, and Direct3D applications can no longer take complete control of your graphics output.

It sounds like something that's been long overdue to me (you should be able to alt-tab out of anything, anytime, without graphics issues), but I don't know if it actually works.

NerdConnected
02-02-2007, 01:39 PM
FM_Golden_Eagle,

FYI:

Luckily the company I work for had some additional Vista licenses so I immediately grabbed one ;-)

So time for a Vista Ultimate 32 Il2 1946 benchmark.

########################
System
########################
- Asus P5B
- Corsair PC1066 2GB DDR2 Ram
- Intel E6700 at 2.66 Ghz (SpeedStep enabled)
- Nvidia 8800 GTS
- Nvidia Drivers 100.59
- 120 Gb WD ATA
- 200 Gb WD ATA and 2 Gb Swap
- X-Fi Music

X-Fi Music -&gt;
Creative 'Alchemy' settings:
Buffers=4
Duration=10
DisableDirectMusic=False
MaxVoiceCount=128

########################
OS
########################
Vista32 Ultimate

########################
Nvidia driver settings
########################
- Nvidia Drivers 100.59
- AA: Application Controlled
- Anisotropic filtering: Application Controlled
- Texture pref. HighQuality
- Color profile: Not available
- vert. sync: off
- Force Mipmaps: none
- Conf. Tex. Clamp: On
- Ext. Limit: Off
- Hardw. Acc.: Single display
- Tril. Opt. : Off
- Anis. mip filter Opt. Off
- Anis. sample filter Opt. Off
- Transp. AA: Supersampling
- Triple buff: Off
- Negative LOD bias: clamp
- Threaded Optimization: On
- OpenGL error rep.: Off
- Screen refresh: 75 Hz

########################
Vista tuning
########################
None whatsoever...

Aero desktop and all fancy features are enabled. This is pretty default, but I need much
more time to determine what really works (esp. disabling services).

########################
IL2 1946 settings
version: 4.07.1 beta
########################
[il2]
title=Pacific Fighters
hotkeys=HotKey game

[window]
width=1280
height=960
ColourBits=32
DepthBits=24
StencilBits=8
ChangeScreenRes=1
FullScreen=1
DrawIfNotFocused=0
EnableResize=0
EnableClose=1
SaveAspect=1
Use3Renders=0

[GLPROVIDER]
GL=Opengl32.dll

[GLPROVIDERS]
Open GL=Opengl32.dll
DirectX=dx8wrap.dll

[NET]
speed=25000
routeChannels=0
serverChannels=31
localPort=21000
remotePort=21000
SkinDownload=1
serverName=No Name
serverDescription=
remoteHost=
localHost=
socksHost=
checkServerTimeSpeed=1
checkClientTimeSpeed=0

[MaxLag]
farMaxLagTime=10.0
nearMaxLagTime=2.0
cheaterWarningDelay=5.0
cheaterWarningNum=-1

[chat]
region=(dx=0.6925,dy=0.071666665,x=0.0,y=0.0)
autoLogDetail=3

[game]
Arcade=0
HighGore=1
mapPadX=0.66875
mapPadY=-0.045833334
viewSet=54
Intro=0
NoSubTitles=0
NoChatter=0
NoHudLog=0
NoLensFlare=0
iconTypes=1
eventlog=eventlog.lst
eventlogkeep=0
3dgunners=1
SubTitlesLines=1
TypeClouds=1
ClearCache=1

[HotKey game]
PrintScreen=ScreenShot
P=pause
Pause=pause

[HotKey gui]
Escape=activate

[HookViewFly Config]
timeFirstStep=2.0
deltaZ=10.0

[HookView]
MouseLeft=Len

[HookView Config]
AzimutSpeed=0.1
TangageSpeed=0.1
LenSpeed=1.0
MinLen=1.0
DefaultLen=20.0
MaxLen=3000.0
Speed=6

[HotKey builder]
MouseLeft=objectMove
MouseRight=popupmenu
Enter=freeView
Shift MouseLeft=worldZoom
Alt MouseLeft=select+
Alt MouseRight=select-
Alt Ctrl=unselect
PageDown=change+
PageUp=change-
End=change++
Home=change--
Ctrl MouseLeft=insert+
Insert=insert+
NumPad-0=insert+
F=fill
Ctrl MouseRight=delete+
NumPad.=delete+
Delete=delete+
Backspace=cursor
Tab=cursor
F10=land
F11=onLand
NumPad-=normalLand
NumPad+=toLand
NumPad-5=resetAngles
NumPad-8=resetTangage90
NumPad-7=stepAzimut-5
NumPad-4=stepAzimut-15
NumPad-1=stepAzimut-30
NumPad-9=stepAzimut5
NumPad-6=stepAzimut15
NumPad-3=stepAzimut30

[MouseXYZ]
F1=SpeedSlow
F2=SpeedNormal
F3=SpeedFast
MouseRight=XYmove
F4 MouseRight=Zmove
MouseMiddle=Amove
F5 MouseRight=Amove
F6 MouseRight=Tmove
F7 MouseRight=Kmove

[MouseXYZ Config]
RealTime=1

[HotKey Console]
Shift Tab=Activate
[Console]
HISTORY=1024
HISTORYCMD=1024
LOAD=console.cmd
SAVE=console.cmd
LOG=0
LOGTIME=1
LOGFILE=log.lst
LOGKEEP=0

[sound]
SoundUse=1
SoundEngine=1
Speakers=0
Placement=0
SoundFlags.reversestereo=0
RadioFlags.Enabled=0
RadioEngine=
MusicVolume=0
ObjectVolume=14
MusState.takeoff=0
MusState.inflight=0
MusState.crash=0
MusFlags.play=0
MasterVolume=7
Attenuation=1
SoundMode=0
SamplingRate=2
NumChannels=2
SoundExt.occlusions=1
SoundFlags.hardware=1
SoundFlags.streams=0
SoundFlags.duplex=0
SoundExt.acoustics=1
SoundExt.volumefx=0
SoundFlags.voicemgr=0
SoundFlags.static=0
VoiceVolume=14
Channels=2
SoundExt.extrender=0
SoundFlags.bugscorrect=0
SoundSetupId=2
ActivationLevel=0.02
Preemphasis=0.85
RadioLatency=0.5
AGC=1
PTTMode=0
SoundFlags.UseRadioChatter=0
SoundFlags.AutoActivation=0
RadioFlags.PTTMode=0
RadioFlags.PlayClicks=0
ActLevel=0
MicLevel=0
SoundFlags.forceEAX1=0

[rts]
ProcessAffinityMask=2
mouseUse=2
joyUse=1
trackIRUse=0
DisableIME=0
locale=

[rts_mouse]
SensitivityX=1.0
SensitivityY=1.0
Invert=0
SensitivityZ=1.0

[Render_DirectX]
TexQual=3
TexMipFilter=2
TexCompress=2
TexLandQual=3
TexFlags.UseDither=0
TexFlags.PolygonStipple=0
TexFlags.UseAlpha=0
TexFlags.UseIndex=1
TexFlags.UseClampedSprites=1
TexFlags.DrawLandByTriangles=1
TexFlags.UseVertexArrays=1
TexFlags.DisableAPIExtensions=0
TexFlags.ARBMultitextureExt=1
TexFlags.TexEnvCombineExt=1
TexFlags.SecondaryColorExt=1
TexFlags.VertexArrayExt=1
TexFlags.ClipHintExt=0
TexFlags.UsePaletteExt=0
TexFlags.TexAnisotropicExt=1
TexFlags.TexCompressARBExt=1
TexFlags.TexEnvCombine4NV=1
TexFlags.TexEnvCombineDot3=1
TexFlags.DepthClampNV=1
TexFlags.SeparateSpecular=1
TexFlags.TextureShaderNV=1

HardwareShaders=0

ForceShaders1x=0

Shadows=2
Specular=2
SpecularLight=2
DiffuseLight=2
DynamicalLights=1
MeshDetail=2
VisibilityDistance=3

Sky=2
Forest=0
LandShading=3
LandDetails=2

LandGeom=2
TexLarge=1

TexLandLarge=1

Water=1
Effects=1

VideoSetupId=15
PolygonOffsetFactor=-0.0625
PolygonOffsetUnits=-1.0

[Render_OpenGL]
TexQual=3
TexLandQual=3
TexMipFilter=2
TexCompress=0
TexFlags.UseDither=0
TexFlags.UseAlpha=0
TexFlags.UseIndex=1
TexFlags.PolygonStipple=0
TexFlags.UseVertexArrays=1
TexFlags.TexEnvCombine4NV=1
TexFlags.TexEnvCombineDot3=1
TexFlags.DepthClampNV=1
TexFlags.SeparateSpecular=1
TexFlags.TextureShaderNV=1
TexFlags.DisableAPIExtensions=0
TexFlags.ARBMultitextureExt=1
TexFlags.TexEnvCombineExt=1
TexFlags.SecondaryColorExt=1
TexFlags.VertexArrayExt=1
TexFlags.ClipHintExt=0
TexFlags.UsePaletteExt=0
TexFlags.TexAnisotropicExt=1
TexFlags.TexCompressARBExt=1
TexFlags.UseClampedSprites=1
TexFlags.DrawLandByTriangles=1

HardwareShaders=1

ForceShaders1x=0

Shadows=1
Specular=2
SpecularLight=2
DiffuseLight=2
DynamicalLights=1
MeshDetail=2
VisibilityDistance=3

Sky=2
Forest=3
LandShading=3
LandDetails=2

LandGeom=2
TexLarge=1
TexLandLarge=1

Water=2
Effects=1

VideoSetupId=17
PolygonOffsetFactor=-0.15
PolygonOffsetUnits=-3.0

[DGen]
MissionDistance=50
Maxbomberskill=1
;VeryShort, Short, Medium, Long, VeryLong (VeryLong is default)
;Pacific Fighters only.
;For example, if you want mission outcome to always be historical,
;you can set the parameters to unachievable high values, such as:
OperationVictory=3000
OperationDefeat=-3000
WarVictory=30000
;Japanese have chutes from start of war
;0 or 1. Zero meaning you'll have AAA/flak unit at some unused airbases
;Can be set to 0 to 100, default or not having the line in conf.ini is 10.
SlowFire=1.0
HistoricalRanks=1
MaxFLAK=5
WarDefeat=-30000
UseParachutes=1
UseParkedPlanes=1

[rts_joystick]
1X=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
1Y=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
1Z=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1RZ=50 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 100 0
FF=0

################################################## ########
Vista benchmarking using fraps 2.8.2.
Black death track 8800 GTS
(and yes, no-cd patch ;-)
################################################## ########
2007-02-02 15:47:44 - il2fb
Frames: 8210 - Time: 155281ms - Avg: 52.872 - Min: 24 - Max: 108

Just for fun another fraps bench with aero desktop off, all desktop effects off and windows sounds off:

2007-02-02 16:35:28 - Il2FB
Frames: 9466 - Time: 154872ms - Avg: 61.121 - Min: 25 - Max: 140

Hmmm, 15% higher fps with Aero disabled ??

################################################## ########
Some results from a previous benchmark running on XP64 with IL2 405m

Note: this was when I still used a 6800 Ultra AGP with my E6700. Video settings nearly identical.

Differences between IL2 407.1 and 405 are very
small so I think this is allowed ;-)
################################################## ########
2006-10-15 11:47:15 - il2fb
Frames: 9294 - Time: 155412ms - Avg: 59.802 - Min: 34 - Max: 111

2006-10-15 11:49:53 - il2fb
Frames: 9397 - Time: 155569ms - Avg: 60.404 - Min: 34 - Max: 111

2006-10-15 11:55:50 - il2fb
Frames: 9415 - Time: 155712ms - Avg: 60.464 - Min: 34 - Max: 112

2006-10-15 11:58:29 - il2fb
Frames: 9416 - Time: 155864ms - Avg: 60.412 - Min: 34 - Max: 112

################################################## ########
Conclusion, for now...
################################################## ########
My experience with Vista Ultimate sofar: Vista is with default settings a bit lot slower than e.g. a nicely tuned XP64. That's quite normal of course, but the differences between min. fps and avg. fps of the 6800 and 8800 are somewhat disturbing.

OpenGL with the 6800 on XP64 is a lot faster than using an 8800 on Vista. This must be a Nvidia driver issue. The max. fps are e.g. higher than the 6800 but the min. fps are almost 10 fps less. The avg. fps are about the same ;-(

Nvidia's drivers are not quite ready so it seems. Let's hope Nvidia improves the driver and let's hope also that this is not caused by the new Vista user mode video driver model.....

What's also striking is the impact of the Aero desktop. Looks very nice, but whatever MS says, it has quite some impact running Il2. Without Aero and all the fancy effects, even it if supposedly suspends, I get 15% higher fps and that's quite a lot. Aero is suspended but still seems to steal cpu/gpu cycles...

Mark

Tator_Totts
02-02-2007, 08:07 PM
Nerdconnected,
Does 64 bit run hyperlobby and teamspeak?

NerdConnected
02-03-2007, 03:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tator_Totts:
Nerdconnected,
Does 64 bit run hyperlobby and teamspeak? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you mean XP64? In that case I don't know. But frankly I've never had any problems running 32 bit software on XP64 other than low level stuff like e.g. drivers and daemon tools and such. For this you'll need real 64 bit software. 32 bit programs like games and apps run all fine.

Mark

anarchy52
02-03-2007, 03:37 AM
From my experience, you can expect somewhat lower FPS in Vista mostly due to immature drivers. I have X800 Pro and if I turn on anti-aliasing in the Catalyst Control Panel and start IL-2 I get a blue screen of death, something I haven't seen in quite a while on XP.

NerdConnected
02-03-2007, 04:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
From my experience, you can expect somewhat lower FPS in Vista mostly due to immature drivers. I have X800 Pro and if I turn on anti-aliasing in the Catalyst Control Panel and start IL-2 I get a blue screen of death, something I haven't seen in quite a while on XP. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

anarchy52,

Drivers will probably improve a lot, but Vista is pretty 'bloated' by default. Turning everything off you don't need or want is not very intuitive or easy to find. MS has carefully tucked away all of this stuff to provide a safe ride for the average joe.

I'm okay with that as long as you only surf the Net, read mail or use office, but for gaming it is less optimal (take e.g. a look at all the automagic stuff in the 'task scheduler'. Sometimes all of a sudden your hard drive starts to rattle because Vista runs a job).

I think MS should reconsider this approach as Vista has really gotten too 'fat'. MS should provide us with hardware and software profiles so we can decide what we want to do.

E.g. if we need to play games, stop all unneeded services, processes and tasks, enable the simple desktop, disable all fancy effects, optimize for performance, disable windows updates/defender/anti-virus, etc, etc.

After all, gaming is mostly a single task and doesn't need all of this stuff running along side. If we need to do some surfing or write a document, we can always start everything up again.

I'm keeping Vista right now because of future dx10 games and all, but I'm not satisfied with its gaming performance right now. For office, Firefox and mail it's quite nice and looks great, but in its current state it's not really meant for gaming. It's a real hog....

Mark

Tator_Totts
02-03-2007, 10:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NerdConnected:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tator_Totts:
Nerdconnected,
Does 64 bit run hyperlobby and teamspeak? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you mean XP64? In that case I don't know. But frankly I've never had any problems running 32 bit software on XP64 other than low level stuff like e.g. drivers and daemon tools and such. For this you'll need real 64 bit software. 32 bit programs like games and apps run all fine.

Mark </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I mean Vista 64 bit. So I guess Hyperlobby and teamspeak will work with Vista 64 bit.

papotex
02-04-2007, 03:01 PM
DEJABU

i see my self with a dual boot machine again,
just like back when transitioning from WIN98 to
XP.

i remembber when i bought my first XP machine, as soon that i saw how bad IL2 ran, i formated my HD and installed WIN98.

now the WIN XP im using is the CD that came with that old computer.

WIN98 is fading in my memory now

mazexx
02-05-2007, 02:26 PM
Hi!

I have a rig that is something like the one you are thinking of buying (accept that I have no quad core CPU). I did some unscientific tests comparing XP (SP2) and Vista 32 Ultimate as I have a dual boot configuration...

My rig:

Asus Striker Extreme MB
Core 2 Duo E6700 (@3.0Ghz)
2Gb Corsair DDRII 6400 Cas4 (@900Mhz 4-4-4-2t)
Soundblaster X-Fi Fatality Extreme Gamer 64Mb
Asus Geforce 8800GTX
2xRaptor 74Gb
1xRaptor 150Gb

I first booted it in Vista using 100.59 forceware and IL2-1946 version 4.0.7.1m

I used 1280x960x32 and maximum settings (not perfect to be able to compare OGL and DX at first).

I just took a quick mission (A20C-Crimea-No AAA) and flew straight forward default FOV inside and checked the FPS using fraps. Default forceware settings, no anisiotropic filtering or aa, but with vertical sync off (no fun fps otherwise).

DirectX - 105fps
OpenGL - 70fps

Then I did it "my way" using 1280x1024x32, OpenGL perfect settings, water=4, 16x anisotropic and 16qx aa, and then I got 80fps. Weird, better than the test above with no bells and whistles.

OK, so how about XP then?

Same settings as above (accept forceware 97.92 for XP).

Standard settings:

DirectX: 150fps
OpenGL: 150fps

And "my way" all bells and wistles: 115-120fps (and it looks awsome! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

Interesting notes, when flying around using "my way setting" in Vista (buzzing the landing craft etc) I was around 50fps. In XP it seldom drops below 100fps. Sure OGL is not supposed to work well in Vista, but without perfect landscape IL2 looks rather dull - doesn't it? Another thing is that IL2 with Vista feels rather shaky. Every other time I just get 25 fps at "my way" settings. Reboot and it works again. Sometimes it seems like I have to switch to Dx and back to get the fps up again.

Vista still has a long way to go it seems...

EDIT: To be a bit more professional about the testing, I did the BlackDeath track fraps test as NerdConnected did... "my way" settings (OGL 1280x1024x32, perfect landscape, water=4, 16x anisotropic, 16qx anti aliasing):

XP(SP2):

2007-02-05 22:52:04 - il2fb
Frames: 9886 - Time: 155544ms - Avg: 63.558 - Min: 31 - Max: 113

Vista 32 Ultimate:

2007-02-05 23:00:09 - il2fb
Frames: 6571 - Time: 155252ms - Avg: 42.325 - Min: 19 - Max: 87

/Mazex

Willey
02-05-2007, 02:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tator_Totts:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NerdConnected:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tator_Totts:
Nerdconnected,
Does 64 bit run hyperlobby and teamspeak? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you mean XP64? In that case I don't know. But frankly I've never had any problems running 32 bit software on XP64 other than low level stuff like e.g. drivers and daemon tools and such. For this you'll need real 64 bit software. 32 bit programs like games and apps run all fine.

Mark </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I mean Vista 64 bit. So I guess Hyperlobby and teamspeak will work with Vista 64 bit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They should... they worked on XP64 already.

Worf101
02-07-2007, 06:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheGhostFiles:
Vista+DX10+DX10 Video Cards, will be a new animal.

If you want Vista and want to rebuild, wait for DX10 Video Cards. I understand Vista and "gaming" will be a new design, and much faster.

GF </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It should go Vista+DX10+DX10 Video Cards+DX10 Video Games (in 1.5-3 years before they hit mainstream). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What the man said. My own personal upgrade path says:
Wait 1.5 years at most. Lawsuits will be done, drivers will be mature and tweaked and the hardware, Sheeee**!! We'll be running Octacores by then and AMD will have gotten it's act back together... soo... I'll just keep flying this for a while danke.

Da Worfster

FatBoyHK
02-07-2007, 10:15 AM
NerdConnected I see you using ALchemy. Does it really work and be able to make IL2 sounds just the same as it is in XP? I am using SB with a 5.1 speaker system therefore I would like to mae sure they will work.

People keep talk about graphic but they are a lot of other aspect that we need to consider... sound is one thing.... and how about TrackIR? HOTAS?

as a side note the future is not quite bright for Thrustmaster Cougar... There may be no 64 bit drivers. However, the stick itself can work fine in 64 bit, you just cannot program it. If you need to program it, you need to dual-boot to a 32 bit OS (Vista or XP). Better than nothing, I would say. If you don't mind, just stick with Vista 32 bit. I am disappointed, but every OS upgrade is the same chaos.

NerdConnected
02-08-2007, 02:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
NerdConnected I see you using ALchemy. Does it really work and be able to make IL2 sounds just the same as it is in XP? I am using SB with a 5.1 speaker system therefore I would like to mae sure they will work.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, now using even Alchemy on Vista 64 Ultimate ;-) Reinstalled the entire thing again..

Well, sounds are a bit different when you use Alchemy on Vista. It's still beta but seems to work. I'm only using head phones, so nothing fancy like 5.1.

After Alchemy the sounds are more like XP. Less echo, less hollow and a bit more toned down.

Just give it try. You only need to copy two files to il2 dir. and that's it.

Mark

triad773
02-08-2007, 03:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Questions:

Why are we being shovelled this Vista? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think reason no. 1 is that it's 64 bit. That will open doors down the road that will (eventually) blow away any other 32 bit OS. But that being said, he's got another 64 bit OS breathing down his neck: Mac OS-X! Don't laugh- I myself have been interviewing at places you'd typically think would use exclusively Windows. Yet quite a few businesses are making the switch. Why Mac OS-X? Not as popular (yet) with hackers, script kiddies and virus authors.

There are a number of stability issues that Mac has addressed that Windows has not. And, as I said- it's 64 bit already with all those issues having already been addressed.

My dream machine? A Mac Pro with quad core, 6 GB of (usable) RAM, 2TB of storage, and a triple boot of OS-X, WinDohs, and Linux.

I intend to stave off Vista as long as possible- let the early adopters sort it out for the rest of us http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

rpkiller
02-09-2007, 02:54 AM
Has anyone tried IL2 on Vista x64 yet?
I'm thinking of making the upgrade as soon as a decent video driver for my 6800GT is available - I guess I'm just a sucker for new stuff http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Vista is the future of Windows...!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

NerdConnected
02-09-2007, 12:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rpkiller:
Has anyone tried IL2 on Vista x64 yet?
I'm thinking of making the upgrade as soon as a decent video driver for my 6800GT is available - I guess I'm just a sucker for new stuff http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Vista is the future of Windows...!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just removed the 32 bits version and installed Vista Ultimate 64.

Installed Il2 and with (and without) patch 408m it runs fine on Vista 64. The 8800 dll's also show a nice fps improvement ;-) Not as fast as on XP, but fast enough. Be aware, OpenGL runs 10 - 15 % slower on Vista with latest Nvidia beta drivers.

Mark

FatBoyHK
02-10-2007, 12:55 AM
I tried Vista Ulimate 64 bit last night. My rig consist of a AMD FX-60, 8800GTX SLI, and 2G of RAM. 3DMarks06 is 10% slower, and IL2 is quite a bit slower, may be about 30% down. Sadly I have a Audigy 2 ZS and it is not yet supported by ALchemy.

Have a couple of BSOD already, scary at the first sight but I found out it is just an overheat-related issue. Aero is using the gfx cards every seconds, so it generate more heat. And weather is getting abit warm here in Hong Kong, combined this 2 factors and suddenly I have some BSODs that wouldn't happen in normal case, e.g. at desktop. Sorted out my cooling and everything is fine again.

rpkiller
02-12-2007, 09:31 AM
From Nvidia website download page for Vista Drivers:

"These NVIDA Windows Vista drivers are under development. This version is not fully optimized for full 3D performance and may not include all available features available on different operating systems. NVIDIA, along with the industry, is continuing to update its Windows Vista drivers to ensure maximum performance on 3D applications and add support for features"

TBH I suspect that the issues many people are having will be sorted out once the card manufacturers have sorted out their drivers. Microsoft IMHO has done everything in its power to get drivers sorted in time for the release - however companies such as Nvidia will only prioritise developing drivers for Vista once there is sufficient demand (i.e. once vista has been released.)

What will be interesting is how benchmarks will compare once the driver situation has matured. However in the interim I suspect any benchmarks are meaningless as, as written in the Nvidia statement above "This version is not fully optimized for full 3D performance and may not include all available features available on different operating systems". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

stormende
02-16-2007, 05:31 PM
It was an interesting experience I have to say.

I ran 1946 in windows XP crossfire and got 160 - 119 FPS with Open GL (max settings) and 160 - 150 FPS with Direct X.

Game crashed when i used Open GL Perfect terrain.
Did weird things if using Direct X in crossfire with max detail like the plane info disappearing and reappearing. Not flickering but lets say if the plane position was on the upper part of the screen you could see the details like BF110 whatever but if the plane dived and now it is in the lower part of the screen the label just disappeared. Maybe it was because of the cards running crossfire or who knows? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Now on vista: Game refused to run so I had to restart my puter and try again. It worked ok.
FPS 150 stable with max details!
Yeah surprise. No matter how many planes were in flight, no stuttering, no lag no anything and the image was awesome so crispy and clear.

We are talking of 2 cheap X1650 Turbo in cross fire with an AMD 4800 X2 not overclocked with 2 MB ram and Windows vista ultimate edition.

Had to go back to XP pro because vista doesn't have many certified drivers and I just can't fly without my TM FFB

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif