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View Full Version : No right or wrong: The Ace you would choose to fly under?



XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 05:36 AM
There are many outstanding ones for sure; this isn't a challenge, just personal choice. I'm an American and I'm partial; if I flew under the command of one Ace my choice would be Richard Bong. I also love the P-38. His ability was extraordinary and he was a man who's dispostion I could respect. He was not reckless for points and ( he also enjoyed fishing and hockey.)

In a famous story, Bong was high-hatting all over San Francisco Bay, flying under the bridges, buzzing Market Street, and blowing wash off clothes lines. One harried housewife complained. General George Kenney called Bong on the carpet and told him, "Monday morning you check this address out in Oakland and if the woman has any washing to be hung out on the line, you do it for her. Then you hang around being useful - mowing the lawn or something - and when the clothes are dry, take them off the line and bring them into the house. And don't drop any of them on the ground or you will have to wash them all over again. I want this woman to think we are good for something else besides annoying people. Now get out of here before I get mad and change my mind. That's all!"

Except for a July 26 engagement, Bong never had any hugely successful single mission such as McGuire or Shubin. Bong's kills were evenly spread out throughout his time flying combat. Also, most of Bong's victories were in the earlier stages of the war against very experienced Japanese pilots

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 05:36 AM
There are many outstanding ones for sure; this isn't a challenge, just personal choice. I'm an American and I'm partial; if I flew under the command of one Ace my choice would be Richard Bong. I also love the P-38. His ability was extraordinary and he was a man who's dispostion I could respect. He was not reckless for points and ( he also enjoyed fishing and hockey.)

In a famous story, Bong was high-hatting all over San Francisco Bay, flying under the bridges, buzzing Market Street, and blowing wash off clothes lines. One harried housewife complained. General George Kenney called Bong on the carpet and told him, "Monday morning you check this address out in Oakland and if the woman has any washing to be hung out on the line, you do it for her. Then you hang around being useful - mowing the lawn or something - and when the clothes are dry, take them off the line and bring them into the house. And don't drop any of them on the ground or you will have to wash them all over again. I want this woman to think we are good for something else besides annoying people. Now get out of here before I get mad and change my mind. That's all!"

Except for a July 26 engagement, Bong never had any hugely successful single mission such as McGuire or Shubin. Bong's kills were evenly spread out throughout his time flying combat. Also, most of Bong's victories were in the earlier stages of the war against very experienced Japanese pilots

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 05:53 AM
My favorite airplane is the Bf-109. My grandfather, a B-24 tailgunner, won the Air Medal for shooting one down over Italy in 1943. He was, in turn, shot down over Ploesti by 109s in July of 1944 (perhaps JG-52?) and captured by the Germans. It was his 44th mission. Thankfully, the Russians liberated him shortly thereafter.

My favorite ace to fly under would be Marseille whom Galland termed the 'Virtuoso of Fighter Pilots'. Flying the 109F in the desert skies by day while enjoying American Jazz music and parties at night!

My second choice would be Walter Nowotny and The Green Hearts.

<center><img src=http://carlenecarter.org/JG54_CSA.JPG>

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 06:09 AM
Werner Molders for German. Aleksander Pokryshkin for Russian. While both were excellent pilots and tacticians, they each went out of their way to train and lookout for the welfare of those that served under them. They were leaders.

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 06:21 AM
No brainer...Erich Hartmann.

Even if I was too thick to learn much, I would still be alive. He never lost a wingman.




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XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 07:14 AM
im reading a book about the JG26, My choice would have to be Adolf Galland

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XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 07:23 AM
Bud Anderson or Preddy.



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XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 09:27 AM
Gunther Rahl comes to mind immediately. I have seen so many interviews with him, that I must say he appears to be a very honest, and humble man. He was a pretty darn good pilot too!

On the other hand, flying with Greg "Pappy" Boington would have been fun, and drinking with him would have been better!

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XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 09:29 AM
I'm gonna have to go with Thunderbolt56 on this one. Erich Hartmann cared about the men flying with him, and it showed. If I had to fight, I'd feel safe learning under him knowing that he'd keep me safe.

"Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman. It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section]. They were made to fly as wingman, instead."
-Erich Hartmann

Of course, there's that whole thing of flying for the Nazis. Not my cup of tea I must say... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 09:38 AM
yep hartman ..but he did loose 1 wingman who had just transitiond from bombers, that many missions and just that one guy ( not kia)

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XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 11:35 AM
Douglas Bader.
The guy was a legend.
AFTER losing both legs he went back to front line flying!


S! Simon.
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XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 11:49 AM
Extreme_One wrote:
- Douglas Bader.
- The guy was a legend.
- AFTER losing both legs he went back to front line
- flying!
-

How did he use the rudder pedals?

Erich Hartmann btw

Wilhelm

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 11:53 AM
Wilhelm_Hartas wrote:
- Extreme_One wrote:
-- Douglas Bader.
-- The guy was a legend.
-- AFTER losing both legs he went back to front line
-- flying!
--
-
- How did he use the rudder pedals?
-

Something I've always wondered too...
I guess maybe he used his false legs?

S! Simon.
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XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 12:04 PM
tenmmike wrote:
- yep hartman ..but he did loose 1 wingman who had
- just transitiond from bombers, that many missions
- and just that one guy ( not kia)
-

Indeed. Hartmann did indeed have a wingman shot down, just not killed. The guy couldn't turn hard enough.



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XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 12:10 PM
Yep he had false legs alrite, if you ever saw the film 'Battle of Britain' theres a scene that he's in a burning Hurri or Spit and his false leg gets stuck, he ends up just ripping it off and safely bailing out.

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 12:18 PM
cd_jakevas wrote:
- im reading a book about the JG26, My choice would
- have to be Adolf Galland

If you are reading this book you can surely enlightenme so as to how many of Galland's wingmen survived.

My choice is Hartmann, I have a family to feed.



Message Edited on 10/26/0303:52PM by HansKnappstick

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 12:20 PM
Classicaero wrote:
- Yep he had false legs alrite, if you ever saw the
- film 'Battle of Britain' theres a scene that he's in
- a burning Hurri or Spit and his false leg gets
- stuck, he ends up just ripping it off and safely
- bailing out.

i guess, it was steinhoff



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XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 02:45 PM
Even if I hadn't lost my right arm in a road-crash, I'd still chose Douglas Bader to be my leader! Sure he's famous for flying with tin legs, but his real value was in his leadership qualities.

Btw, I rode out on my new outfit today - a 16-valve K100 BMW with a miltary sidecar, with my wife manning the maps & the Mg32 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif - and we hit the ton (100 mph) just outside Exeter, Devon ... going uphill! I nearly did a victory roll, but just remembered that I wasn't in my I-16 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Yeah, Doug Bader for me, my hero......



6BL-Brando

Stuff the fugitive....here comes the one-armed man!!

Message Edited on 10/26/0301:46PM by brandau

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 02:47 PM
brandau wrote:
- Even if I hadn't lost my right arm in a road-crash,
- I'd still chose Douglas Bader to be my leader! Sure
- he's famous for flying with tin legs, but his real
- value was in his leadership qualities.
-
- Btw, I rode out on my new outfit today - a 16-valve
- K100 BMW with a miltary sidecar, with my wife
- manning the maps & the Mg32 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
- and we hit the ton (100 mph)
- just outside Exeter, Devon ... going uphill! I
- nearly did a victory roll, but just remembered that
- I wasn't in my I-16 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Show us pics of the new rig then. I wanna see the MGs. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

S! Simon.
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Download the USAAF campaign folder here (http://mudmovers.com/Sims/FB/fb_essential_files.htm).

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XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 03:08 PM
That incident was somewhat more extreme than you describe it. Those prosthetic leg harnesses are not made to break and the whole thing was touch & go! I'll search for a link to the whole tale and post it here, but the follow-on was of course his introduction into being a PoW.
Both his falsies were damaged, one severely, and were meticulously repaired by his captors. I think the worst affected was repaired by artificers from the JagdStaffel that shot him down - he was very courteously handled.

Of course, as soon as he could walk he tried to escape!

I'll go look for that link.....

Brando

Stuff the fugitive....here comes the one-armed man!!

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 03:22 PM
It would have to be Douglas Bader for me too. My father was going to name me after him, but his other hero Geoff Duke won the Isle of Man TT Senior race in 1955, so I got Geoff instead.
Pity really, as I've been legless many a time./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Cheers!

<CENTER>


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Ladies & gentlemen, this is the captain speaking. Thankyou for choosing to fly Mandarin Airlines. Those passengers sitting on the left-hand side of the aeroplane please make yourselves comfortable. Those sitting on the right... please look to your left!

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 03:46 PM
Daniel T. Roberts, P-38 ace pf the 433rd FS, 475th Fighter group. He commanded the 433rd, and was a very good fellow, a former music teacher. A really great guy to be around, and I'd gladly fly my P-38 along side his!

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 04:03 PM
Bader gets my vote.

Surely no co-incidence that so many of his pilots became famous in their own right, with their own commands - men like Cork, Crowley-Milling, Donaldson, Dundas, Johnson and Turner, who all learnt their trade under Bader. His critics can accuse him of overstepping his authority on occaision - I prefer to think of it as that bloody-mindedness that the British can display when the need arises.

If we're allowing all Aces, then WW1's Mick Mannock was very considerate to his young charges, to the point of setting up their first kill and not being worried about sharing the credit.



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XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 04:08 PM
RBJ no doubt.

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 06:01 PM
Me it's a tie between Douglas Bader and Hub Zemke. Both were greatleaders who genuinely cared for their mens well being and were ferocious fighters.
~S!
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CO 361st vFG

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XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 06:09 PM
Erich Hartman, of course .
Why ?
Because he NEVER lost a wingman .

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XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 06:36 PM
Tough choice between Hartmann and Pokryshkin.

I would probably go for Pokryshkin.

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The Flettner tab won the war

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 07:00 PM
Herman Graf.

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XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 08:03 PM
Bud Anderson.

http://www.jackdanielsgoods.com/jdshop/assets/product_images/3355_md.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 10:28 PM
I would choose to fly under JG 52, plenty of truly outstanding pilots, who knew how train newbies and turn them into lethal pilots. Can't go wrong with men like Rall, Hartmann, Graf, Barkhorn, and Grislawski to teach you how to stay alive.

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 10:49 PM
Mick Mannock, though things did get to him and he lost it a bit towards the end (which makes me warm to him all the more as a man).

So if it was a bad day for Mick, I'd say Johnnie Johnson. Always struck me as a great professional and a consummate team player.

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 10:57 PM
Any ace in the 56th FG.

Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 11:09 PM
Marseille or Galland, the 2 "bon vivants" of the WW2(sorry for the bad speling).
Now the choice is A) Being more conservative and staying alive for the whole war or B) Being acrobatic and radical and being dead at 22 years old.
Guess i'll choose B, better to have a thrilling short live than a boring long one!
And who knows, If I was him I could get out of that G2 alive, It's a matter of luck /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 11:15 PM
under Squadron Leader Marmaduke "Pat" Pattle.

http://mypage.bluewin.ch/a-z/kimura-hei/pattle.jpg



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Message Edited on 10/26/0311:20PM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 11:21 PM
Good choice! Nice pic of Pattle by the way - best I've seen.

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 02:37 AM
Group Captain Colin Gray. 27 odd kills and 30 odd probs.

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 09:28 AM
Pips Priller in the West, Eric Hartmann in the East.





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T_O_A_D
10-27-2003, 10:34 AM
For Moms Sake Hartman!

But I think my misfit ways would got along much better with Boyington./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Atleast till I was DEAD /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:13 AM
prolly hartmann if i was smart, ild live. But ild jus go for anyone who has a spitfire.

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XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:53 AM
Colonel Chennault, he spoke and taught his men from experience. In China he had shot down more than 40 Japanese aircraft in a Curtis Hawk 75. His worst enemy being the General Staff. Being outspoken, he refused to be quiet and persitently argued his points of tactics and that there should be more pilots. His superiors claiming that he used unfair tactics and most of his unorthodox ideas were ridiculed.

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 06:05 PM
No doubt Killer Beurling.

http://www.constable.ca/beurlingbust.jpg
[/img]

Not much winging to be done yet sure as hell to get into plenty of trouble all the time and plenty of fish to shoot at when flying with this guy...

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 06:24 PM
As an Ace who can score at will, I would much prefer to be leading an entire squadron, rather than get killed because my leader couldn't fly with precision.

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Message Edited on 10/27/0312:28PM by BaldieJr

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 06:46 PM
ianboys wrote:
- Indeed. Hartmann did indeed have a wingman shot
- down, just not killed. The guy couldn't turn hard
- enough.

His name was Gunther Capito.

I'd definately fly under Helmut Lipfert.


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610 combat missions
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XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 07:08 PM
Hartmann......you fly with the best and you come home alive.......but then you could spend 10 years in a Russian prison after the war.....perhaps I'd rather fly for the winners...

"Nothing difficult is ever easy"