PDA

View Full Version : Highlander balance issues.



Trenk2009
03-27-2018, 10:19 AM
1- The tracking on his caber toss is simply too much. At close range it's virtually almost impossible to dodge the kick late enough to escape from the mix-up. Real 50/50 here.

2- His crushing counter lights need to get the same property as warden when it comes to timing them. As off right now, Highlander lights can be use as a game select. I'm aware that, if you read into it you basically get a light parry, but still, this seems quite dumb to me.

3- The 300ms recovery on dodge when in offensive couple the the 300ms lights makes highlander an extremely cancerous hero. Agaisnt a lot of match up, all he can do all gmae is simply dodge when he sees something coming to him and react accordingly. If the opponent let's his attack fly, follow up the dodge with a kick for 40 damages, if he goes for another mix, go for a light to effectively neglect it.


Overall, the highlander buff was required. Those 3 points above, while not making them top tier in anyway, still feel off and badly design. Reduce the trckign and maybe change the light counter timing and buff his damage to make it still worth. Ans please get his dodge recovey when in offensive form a bit higher.

Vakris_One
03-27-2018, 11:51 AM
1- The tracking on his caber toss is simply too much. At close range it's virtually almost impossible to dodge the kick late enough to escape from the mix-up. Real 50/50 here.

2- His crushing counter lights need to get the same property as warden when it comes to timing them. As off right now, Highlander lights can be use as a game select. I'm aware that, if you read into it you basically get a light parry, but still, this seems quite dumb to me.


Overall, the highlander buff was required. Those 2 points above, while not making them top tier in anyway, still feel off and badly design. Reduce the trckign and maybe change the light counter timing and buff his damage to make it still worth.
1) This tutorial on how to successfully dodge the Caber Toss begs to differ: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3jLf1uqTvl8

You need to wait until you see the grab animation starting before you commit to a dodge. You can always roll away from the entire mind game and reset the fight which puts the Highlander at a disadvantage because it is harder for him to get going again. You can also smack him out of Offensive stance with a fast light.

2) The reason the timing is different is because Highlander's lights come out slower than Warden's top light. Therefore they have a slightly bigger window of time to do a crushing counter meaning you have to wait a tiny bit before spamming attacks on him when he whiffs his light. Alternatively just bait and easily parry his light.

Knight_Raime
03-27-2018, 11:54 AM
Not really. If you let the kick fly it's stuffable with a light. and every hero sans 2 or 3 can walk backwards and throw a light to beat the mix up with a little spacing. Even if it was a real 50 50 it's still very easy to keep him out of offensive form if you're letting him get into it you really do deserve to be punished.

Pretty sure they have the same timing. There is start up delay for both heros on it. warden just seems faster because he can only do it from one direction. Where as with HL you have to factor in guard switch time along side the delay before it's active.

Trenk2009
03-27-2018, 12:45 PM
1) This tutorial on how to successfully dodge the Caber Toss begs to differ: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3jLf1uqTvl8

You need to wait until you see the grab animation starting before you commit to a dodge. You can always roll away from the entire mind game and reset the fight which puts the Highlander at a disadvantage because it is harder for him to get going again. You can also smack him out of Offensive stance with a fast light.

2) The reason the timing is different is because Highlander's lights come out slower than Warden's top light. Therefore they have a slightly bigger window of time to do a crushing counter meaning you have to wait a tiny bit before spamming attacks on him when he whiffs his light. Alternatively just bait and easily parry his light.


1) I've already seen this tutorial. But it's completely dumb. If I wait to see the grab animation to dodge then I'll simply hit the kick if he doesn't go for the grab. That's the principle of a 50/50. I need to guess if he's going to go for the full kick or switch for the grab.

2) I agree that's it should be easier than warden ones, but currently the window is not bigger, there's basically no window. You can throw an attack AFTER the highlander threw his light and STILL get crushing countered by it cuz your attack hit first. Which means that basically, the highlander doesn't always "time" the crushing counter it simply can counter without actually wanting it. That's dumb imo

Trenk2009
03-27-2018, 12:50 PM
Not really. If you let the kick fly it's stuffable with a light. and every hero sans 2 or 3 can walk backwards and throw a light to beat the mix up with a little spacing. Even if it was a real 50 50 it's still very easy to keep him out of offensive form if you're letting him get into it you really do deserve to be punished.

Pretty sure they have the same timing. There is start up delay for both heros on it. warden just seems faster because he can only do it from one direction. Where as with HL you have to factor in guard switch time along side the delay before it's active.

1) I should be punished cuz the highlander decided to go for something I can't simply prevent if I want to. Also there are plenty of situations where interrupting the mix up with a light simply isn't possible. Also also, it is a real 50/50.

2) No they dont. Warden can't crush counter if an attack is started after she launched her light. Highlander can. It happened to me many times, I trow an attack after he actually thres his, yet I get crushing countered cuz mine hit his first.

Knight_Raime
03-27-2018, 01:15 PM
1) I should be punished cuz the highlander decided to go for something I can't simply prevent if I want to. Also there are plenty of situations where interrupting the mix up with a light simply isn't possible. Also also, it is a real 50/50.

2) No they dont. Warden can't crush counter if an attack is started after she launched her light. Highlander can. It happened to me many times, I trow an attack after he actually thres his, yet I get crushing countered cuz mine hit his first.

Proof beyond variks video has shown that it's beatable with what i've said. And of course it's not possible in every situation. That's why I said spacing.
for honor has no 50 50's because of rolling away. I really wish people would stop using terms they don't understand.

I re checked the frame data that is on a spread sheet linked on the FH reddit. they both have the same start up time of 100ms. HL can be slightly longer in regards to how long it's active. But only by 100ms.

Vakris_One
03-27-2018, 01:36 PM
1) I've already seen this tutorial. But it's completely dumb. If I wait to see the grab animation to dodge then I'll simply hit the kick if he doesn't go for the grab. That's the principle of a 50/50. I need to guess if he's going to go for the full kick or switch for the grab.

2) I agree that's it should be easier than warden ones, but currently the window is not bigger, there's basically no window. You can throw an attack AFTER the highlander threw his light and STILL get crushing countered by it cuz your attack hit first. Which means that basically, the highlander doesn't always "time" the crushing counter it simply can counter without actually wanting it. That's dumb imo
1) It's not a 50/50 if you can always roll away from it and reset the fight. 50/50 means you have no choice but to guess and get lucky. Rolling away gives him nothing and gives you a way out ergo not a 50/50 since you don't need to guess. You can opt out every time by rolling away.

You can also avoid the whole thing and punish him if you have a dodge attack. Highlander vs a dodge attack character means his caber toss/kick mind game is rendered useless. Rock, paper, scissors. Some characters have hard counters against other characters. If you're playing a non-dodge attack character either light him out of offensive stance before he can kick/grab you, successfully dodge the grab, roll away or maintain good spacing and parry his Celtic curse to prevent him from quick transitioning into OF in your face.

There are a variety of options available.

2) Highlander cannot crushing counter you if his attack has already finished. You're either not waiting for his light to end or there's lag involved. He has to time it to get you, if he's just letting them fly and getting lucky then stop attacking him with lights and start feinting heavies and baiting a parry.

Illyrian_King
03-27-2018, 01:37 PM
His Rework is bad in my eyes.

His damage is INSANE now!

They should have better worked on something that allows him to get less parried, so he can throw out his heavies.

Instead they just increased his damage insanely, while letting him still use only lights and his kick/cabertoss 50/50

He is viable now, but just in a "crippled" version of what he should be.

Vakris_One
03-27-2018, 02:33 PM
40 damage from slow heavies is considered "insane" nowadays? Huh, where were you when Zerk did 53 damage from his top heavy and could do one hell of an OOS punish that could all but insta-delete 110-115 HP heroes.

Considering Highlander needs to be in OF stance to pull off this "insane damage" I'd say it's fair enough. He is the character he should always have been since he got introduced.

P.S. If you can roll away for no damage it's not a 50/50 but don't tell anyone, it's a seeecret. Shhhh.

RenegadeTX2000
03-27-2018, 04:02 PM
Highlander moved into the A tier in dueling and soon he will move into the A tier in dominion and MAYBE tribute. People been studying and watching my gameplay with Highlander and realized OF stance camping is the way to go and light spamming isn't a real thing to beating him.

Highlander OF stance can play the turtle meta, just requires skill to do so, and once mastered he can seem like one of the better characters. High skill, high ceiling. Can't just, use him and bring out his full potential. but the reward for mastering him puts him in the viable column of the tier list because of his hidden potential, but his bugs that still exist in some of his moves provide inconsistency that won't allow him to reach the top.

Dry.Fish
03-27-2018, 04:05 PM
I think his OF Heavies needs some kind of diminishing returns. He can easily stay in OF stance and throw nothing but unblockables.

Hormly
03-27-2018, 05:18 PM
Rolling away does give him something, it drains a ton of your stamina, which works in his favor

mrmistark
03-27-2018, 07:13 PM
Any quick attack interrupts his ď50/50Ē, any roll will completely mitigate it, and you need to learn to dodge late so you can dodge the toss if he cancels into it, and if not youíll still dodge the kick. This means waiting until the leg is past half extension basically for the kick.

Seriously, just throw out your quickest attack and you beat his mix-up 100% of the time.

There isnít a single 50/50 in the game, simply a move that you donít react to optimally by failing to throwing a light. Iíve said this many times on these forums. Itís getting pretty exhausting.

RenegadeTX2000
03-27-2018, 07:38 PM
If anything I want my Offensive light attack buff... Slightly more range on the attack or fix it to where It actually hits when thrown. There's times and I have proof, that when I use this move it will whiff in front of my opponent. It's terrible lol

Knight_Raime
03-27-2018, 11:19 PM
Rolling away does give him something, it drains a ton of your stamina, which works in his favor

No because stamina is cheap to come by for most heros. And even at half stamina most heros can do something.
Anything he tries to react with on your roll will either be dodged or parried.

RenegadeTX2000
03-27-2018, 11:31 PM
No because stamina is cheap to come by for most heros. And even at half stamina most heros can do something.
Anything he tries to react with on your roll will either be dodged or parried.

It depends on who's doing the rolling away but highlander can do a dash forward OF light punish. Haven't tested on everybody but that punish does work.

Knight_Raime
03-27-2018, 11:44 PM
It depends on who's doing the rolling away but highlander can do a dash forward OF light punish. Haven't tested on everybody but that punish does work.

Not saying you're a liar. I just have a hard time picturing that. because iirc OF light has basically no range.
I could see maybe being able to do this on a read. But not on a reaction.

Plus can't you cancel the recovery from dodge with a kick? wouldn't that make it a better option then?

RenegadeTX2000
03-27-2018, 11:57 PM
Not saying you're a liar. I just have a hard time picturing that. because iirc OF light has basically no range.
I could see maybe being able to do this on a read. But not on a reaction.

Plus can't you cancel the recovery from dodge with a kick? wouldn't that make it a better option then?

it's inconsistent, sometimes OF light lands perfectly, sometimes it whiffs for no reason. and dodge into kick is too slow.

Who would you say has the best back roll in the game? PK?

Knight_Raime
03-28-2018, 12:03 AM
it's inconsistent, sometimes OF light lands perfectly, sometimes it whiffs for no reason. and dodge into kick is too slow.

Who would you say has the best back roll in the game? PK?

Probably. If only due to the initial back dash you sort of half take when doing a roll. Her and shaman would have the farthest back rolls then.
And interesting. I guess that's something i'll try to pick up when I try to play him a bit more often.
Still in the middle of attempting to play other heros/refine some ideas from my buff list on heros i'm comfortable with.

I want to try to get a full list of tweaks on all characters within 2 weeks from now.

Baturai
03-29-2018, 06:05 AM
OP HL + SKilled Player = Leave the Game. SImple As that.

Highest Damage in the Game Check
RANGE Check
Tracks Check
Unblockables Check
Hyper Armor Check
Huge Mixup Check
Fast Mode Switch CHeck
Fast Guard Recovery Check
Superior Dodge ( In offensive mode) Check
lightning Lights (In offensive mode) Check
Counterstrike ( top left right) Check
Bash type Skills ( Grab Kick) Check
Insane Parry Punish Check

WHoever reworked this Hero HAd a real Butthurt.

Protos_88
03-29-2018, 08:38 AM
as warden I feel broken, this rebalanced just knock down my slow main character. this is not balance the game.... this is stupit buff characters

Kahuf1
03-29-2018, 08:52 AM
OP HL + SKilled Player = Leave the Game. SImple As that.

Highest Damage in the Game Check
RANGE Check
Tracks Check
Unblockables Check
Hyper Armor Check
Huge Mixup Check
Fast Mode Switch CHeck
Fast Guard Recovery Check
Superior Dodge ( In offensive mode) Check
lightning Lights (In offensive mode) Check
Counterstrike ( top left right) Check
Bash type Skills ( Grab Kick) Check
Insane Parry Punish Check

WHoever reworked this Hero HAd a real Butthurt.

U makes me laught.

What about this:
Def stance gabrage - Check
Off stance NO DEFENCE - Check
Off stance NO CGB - Check
Cant enter to Off stance duting assassins meta - Check

Ur "check" system u can wrote somehow to every simple hero... Finaly Highlander is playable and have chance against some other heroes and u cry...

Be honest... how often u saw Highlander in S4? And how often u see Highlander in S5 compare to assasins or Kensei?

BarbeQMichael
03-29-2018, 09:34 AM
as warden I feel broken, this rebalanced just knock down my slow main character. this is not balance the game.... this is stupit buff characters

If all else fails, you can abuse toplight & zone and just spam vortex as HL cant defend from or punish the shoulderbash.

Knight_Raime
03-29-2018, 09:39 AM
OP HL + SKilled Player = Leave the Game. SImple As that.

Highest Damage in the Game Check
RANGE Check
Tracks Check
Unblockables Check
Hyper Armor Check
Huge Mixup Check
Fast Mode Switch CHeck
Fast Guard Recovery Check
Superior Dodge ( In offensive mode) Check
lightning Lights (In offensive mode) Check
Counterstrike ( top left right) Check
Bash type Skills ( Grab Kick) Check
Insane Parry Punish Check

WHoever reworked this Hero HAd a real Butthurt.

He doesn't have the highest damage in the game. Maybe on a standard attack. But That doesn't mean much when 1) you have to be in OF which is hard to stay in. and 2) you have to land a kick or a toss for it to happen.

There are heros who surpass his range easily.

There are other classes with equal to or more unblockables than him. and most other ones are safer/easier to access and use.

Highlander is known for being the worst hero with armor.

I don't think he has many mix ups. and even if he had a lot there isn't much point in having a lot if most are bad. His only 2 passable ones are the kick toss mix up and his celtic curse mix up. Former is universally countered by all heros sans LB and shugoki with a walking backwards light and some spacing. and celtic curse mix up is countered by waiting.

It's only fast if he fast flows into it. and he needs to throw an attack for that. If you stay on him that's difficult to do.
Guard recovery?

Something something offensive mode something something easy to keep out of.

yes. 400ms lights. that do barely any damage, take a chunk of stamina. and require you to be in offensive form.
counter strike meaning crushing counter? That's easily baitable.
Both bashes on their own are stupid easy to punish.
insane parry punish? His heavy parry punishes are trash. like. Probably the worst in the game. and his light parry punish is 40 damage. There are many other heros who have better light parry punishes. and even more so have much higher damaging OOS punishes than he does.

I think you're the one that's "butthurt."
Only strengths HL has in his first form is 600ms dodges and celtic curse.
OF isn't easy to get into or stay in providing your opponent keeps pressure on you.

The only S tier hero he has a decent match up against is conq. PK shuts all aggression down with her zone option select and fast lights. Zerk will just trade with you and then feint combo you to death. and glad has the range and speed to constantly poke and harass you. making it hard to stay in OF.

Protos_88
03-29-2018, 10:59 AM
If all else fails, you can abuse toplight & zone and just spam vortex as HL cant defend from or punish the shoulderbash.

are you you can not use a vortex on character with a dodge becouse you will be punished quickly? top light is the only thing wqrden can do. Other attacks are paired, avaoided, blocked in 90%or too slow, and even light can lead that by the new enemy armor you will get dmg or grabbed.the problem is that each character without remodeling is garbage. And after the reconstruction they are too reinforced.

this is my first online game where designers seem completely hopless in what they do. And everyone confirm this after centurion, gladiator or the culmination of a shaman(all in 1)

Vakris_One
03-29-2018, 03:45 PM
OP HL + SKilled Player = Leave the Game. SImple As that.
Any character + skilled player = butthurt on the forums. Check.



Highest Damage in the Game Check
RANGE Check
Tracks Check
Unblockables Check
Hyper Armor Check
Huge Mixup Check
Fast Mode Switch CHeck
Fast Guard Recovery Check
Superior Dodge ( In offensive mode) Check
lightning Lights (In offensive mode) Check
Counterstrike ( top left right) Check
Bash type Skills ( Grab Kick) Check
Insane Parry Punish Check

WHoever reworked this Hero HAd a real Butthurt.
1) Nope. PK objectively has higher damage overall than Highlander as do other characters who do not need to be in a risky offensive stance to nail you with a constant combo of pokes and prods.

2) Kensei, Nobushi and LB have equal to or greater range.

3) Other chatacters have equal to or greater tracking than him. Shaman, Kensei, etc.

4) Other characters have the same or more access to unblockables. Zerker, Centurion, Gladiator, etc. And they don't need to activate an offensive stance to get access to them.

5) Others have more and better access to Hyper Armour than him. Zerker, Shugo, etc.

6) What is this "huge mixup" you speak of? Celtic Curse and Kick/Grab, a grand total of 2 mixups. Celtic Curse being one of the easiest parries in the game. Okay.

7) Oh no, you mean he actually has a chance to enter offensive stance now without having to do it on a counter attack? So OP!!!

8) You do know everyone has the same guard recovery right?

9), 10), 12) He has to stay in Offensive Stance to use these which requires a skill check from both him and his opponent. If any side fails that skill check then they can prepare to be clobbered. Skill checks in a fighting game? Yeah, it's a pretty crazy idea I know.

11) Bait his guardcrush attempt and get a free parry. That's the point of not being able to feint lights. Risk vs reward.

13) What is this "insane parry punish"?

Seems like you're the one with the butt hurt, as always.

Baturai
03-29-2018, 04:36 PM
All Hl needed Was some More Stamina or 1 2 additional Moves. Accept it Or Not, he is Godly Broken

Vakris_One
03-29-2018, 05:28 PM
That's your opinion but it doesn't make it a fact. He got given what he needed to make him a viable character - quick transition into OF stance, more damage from his heavies and improved tracking on his grab.

Your points were all countered and yet you move on like you weren't just proven wrong on every single one of them.

Knight_Raime
03-29-2018, 11:56 PM
That's your opinion but it doesn't make it a fact. He got given what he needed to make him a viable character - quick transition into OF stance, more damage from his heavies and improved tracking on his grab.

Your points were all countered and yet you move on like you weren't just proven wrong on every single one of them.

I would like to say i
m surprised but i'm not.
he's the kind of person who puts low effort troll posts in threads and only posts to be heard. Doesn't want to actually have discussions.

RenegadeTX2000
03-30-2018, 04:44 AM
lol, if i'm playing to win. I'm staying away from Highlander.

Main PK, 2nd Conqeuror.

Those would be my 2 characters in 4v4. and if I had to choose a 3rd just in case someone else chose PK i'd pick Shaman.

Win at all cost? Yeah, 4v4 PK/Shaman... 1v1's PK... With Conqeuror as my counterpick.

Get rid of them and i'd choose berserker as my main and run Kensei in 4v4's.

Baturai
03-30-2018, 08:23 PM
If your'e Facing a God damn HL with a Warden and your Only Way out is Top Light or" DODGE" (which is Obvious Bait for HL) Please tell me that THis HERO IS BALANCED. In order to perform your Shoulder Bash, you have to get close to HL
1. His Range doesnt Allow it!
2. If so ,he has many tools to make your move to your own disadvantage.
3. He keeps avoiding close contact to activate Offensivestance by Moving Backwards (light attack).
And once he is on Offensive mod;
He can dodge pretty well anything .Tracking on some Atttacks ( Warden zone is the only Tracking Attack) seem not to work while he is on Offensive Stance.,
He can Interrupt your Attacks with 400ms Light ,
Feint unblockable into Gb/Parry/countercrush, Use emotes to distract your Focus. There it goes He kick grabs the **** out of you. for INSANE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE. A Wall Nearby ? AHahaha Amen.

So many Ways man. and hard to Punish.

I Am not talking about SHAMANS GLADS CONQS AND PKS, We KNOW THEY ARE TOP TIERS. who can interrupt Hl out of Offensive stance. with their huge tools.

I am talking About SLOW AF Heroes with Limited and Very Obvious Kits.

YES HE IS BROKEN ! Abuser Kids.

Kahuf1
03-30-2018, 08:39 PM
If your'e Facing a God damn HL with a Warden and your Only Way out is Top Light or" DODGE" (which is Obvious Bait for HL) Please tell me that THis HERO IS BALANCED. In order to perform your Shoulder Bash, you have to get close to HL
1. His Range doesnt Allow it!
2. If so he has many tools to make your move to your own disadvantage.
3. He keeps avoiding close contact to activate Offensivestance by Moving Backwards (light attack).
And once he is on Offensive mod;
He can dodge pretty well anything .Tracking on some Atttacks ( Warden zone is the only Tracking Attack) seem not to work while he is on Offensive Stance.,
He can Interrupt your Attacks with 400ms Light ,
Feint unblockable into Gb Use emotes to distract your Focus. There it goes He kick grabs the **** out of you. for INSANE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE.

SO MANY WAYS MAN. AND ALMOST UNPUNISHABLE.

I Am not talking about SHAMANS GLADS CONQS AND PKS, We KNOW THEY ARE TOP TIERS. who can interrupt Hl out of Offensive stance. with their huge tools.

I am talking About SLOW AF Heroes with Limited and Very Obvious Kits.

YES HE IS BROKEN ! Abuser Kids.

No offence mate, but do u know topic like urs i can wrote as Highlander main rep 14 to all hero against?

If HL play too passive, play passive too. Sometimes u have to fit ur playstyle to enemy. If he enter to Off stance, do zone and u have like 90% free hit. If he whifing and enter to Off stance, get close and feunt ur bash to GB. U probably know he have no CGB when is in off stance right? Highlander have soooooo risky his off stance u have to profit from that... have no defence and no CGB. Who else give such BIG disadvantage? He even have no hyperarmour to trade in off stance.

Yes, good Highlander have to be problem to fight against... but every good player with some hero should be problem.

BTW i got like 9 reps before he got buff, cause i love his playstyle and finaly, after buff, he is playable and lot of players cannot bear it.

UbiJurassic
03-30-2018, 08:47 PM
We definitely understand that some players have had concerns with the reworks and major balance updates to some heroes at the start of Season 5. We're definitely keeping an eye on how those balance updates are impacting the state of the game and we'll be looking into future changes based on the feedback players provide and the corresponding data in-game. I'll certainly forward the feedback shared in this thread, but definitely make sure to try out some of the moves others have suggested to counter Highlander.

Kahuf1
03-30-2018, 08:53 PM
We definitely understand that some players have had concerns with the reworks and major balance updates to some heroes at the start of Season 5. We're definitely keeping an eye on how those balance updates are impacting the state of the game and we'll be looking into future changes based on the feedback players provide and the corresponding data in-game. I'll certainly forward the feedback shared in this thread, but definitely make sure to try out some of the moves others have suggested to counter Highlander.

Oh nice... some rly underpowered hero in S4 get something, what he should get since release (damage and tracking) and u looking some ways to counter Highlander? What about ways to counter assassins meta? To counter all in 1 shaman? Or best winrate Peacekeeper? Or Hyperarmour on "assassin" Zerk? Or spamy Kensei with assasins speed, heavy damage and long rande dodge with HA? How is ur way to counter them?

Im rly tired of this...

Dasteel1974
04-03-2018, 02:43 AM
Personally, I say he is a BS hero. Any hero that can throw an infinite combo of unblockable a is garbage. Then add that his unblockable can Wall Splat you yo get a free unblockable. Yea. That just happened to me. Had the guy almost dead. Maybe 10 health left and he throws unblockable that knockabout me into a wall and hits me with another right after. The guy is horse💩. Then add his hyperarmor. I am done caring. It is amazing that you still hear people yíall about Centurion being OP with his 60 damage splat but donít bat an eye at other characters that get more damage off 2 moves at any point in the game. Absolute joke. What is funny are the people that use HL and do nothing but throw unblockable donít use the tools that HL has that people say suck. Again, just another shining example of how brain dead f-ing stupid Ubi is in there balancing.

Col.Bullet
04-03-2018, 02:46 PM
With the Warden I can dodge HLs kick pretty well. And when I get grabbed he outplayed me. That's fine. My gripe would be that in such cases he gets a carefree unblockable where for example the Kensei would have to cancel it into a light or gb to be safe. And then his whole chain from before would have been for nought.
I'm not sure if good dodges at the threat of being canceled out of offensive stance on damage is enough to warrant essentially unlimited unblockable chains. Hyperarmor might be too much though.
Generally I'm fine with HL as the adversary. Defensively the ability to parry is required wich isn't easy. Aside from maybe a few adjustements he's ok.

Col.Bullet
04-03-2018, 02:56 PM
If your'e Facing a God damn HL with a Warden and your Only Way out is Top Light or" DODGE" (which is Obvious Bait for HL) Please tell me that THis HERO IS BALANCED. In order to perform your Shoulder Bash, you have to get close to HL
1. His Range doesnt Allow it!
2. If so ,he has many tools to make your move to your own disadvantage.
3. He keeps avoiding close contact to activate Offensivestance by Moving Backwards (light attack).
And once he is on Offensive mod;
He can dodge pretty well anything .Tracking on some Atttacks ( Warden zone is the only Tracking Attack) seem not to work while he is on Offensive Stance.,
He can Interrupt your Attacks with 400ms Light ,
Feint unblockable into Gb/Parry/countercrush, Use emotes to distract your Focus. There it goes He kick grabs the **** out of you. for INSANE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE. A Wall Nearby ? AHahaha Amen.

So many Ways man. and hard to Punish.

I Am not talking about SHAMANS GLADS CONQS AND PKS, We KNOW THEY ARE TOP TIERS. who can interrupt Hl out of Offensive stance. with their huge tools.

I am talking About SLOW AF Heroes with Limited and Very Obvious Kits.

YES HE IS BROKEN ! Abuser Kids.
Using the Warden as a basis to measure the power of a character is a misguided attempt at best. He is definetely due for rework and expansion kitwise. The only thing keeping him up is the skill of the user, his grip on the base mechanics. And at that point you might aswell use another character.
If you dont want HL to go into Offensive Stance and chain unblockables you might have to harrass him with lights or zone. Or try parry and gb. Feint a heavy and react with a light. Throw him into a wall. Try timing a charged sb, might even work.

Knight_Raime
04-03-2018, 03:26 PM
Using the Warden as a basis to measure the power of a character is a misguided attempt at best. He is definetely due for rework and expansion kitwise. The only thing keeping him up is the skill of the user, his grip on the base mechanics. And at that point you might aswell use another character.
If you dont want HL to go into Offensive Stance and chain unblockables you might have to harrass him with lights or zone. Or try parry and gb. Feint a heavy and react with a light. Throw him into a wall. Try timing a charged sb, might even work.

Don't bother with Baturai. Only posts to get their opinion out there. Doesn't actually care for a decent back and forth discussion.
If it wasn't obvious by the insults, random all caps, and straw mans pretty frequently.

Hormly
04-03-2018, 03:43 PM
Seems like an important part of fighting the HL is being quick enough to shut him down the moment he goes into his crazy stance.

BarbeQMichael
04-03-2018, 06:41 PM
Seems like an important part of fighting the HL is being quick enough to shut him down the moment he goes into his crazy stance.

Pretty much this, whenever you see HL trying to go for OF, just attack or gb because he literally cannot defend (no blocking or cgb). That will break the stance and net you some damage. With 500ms lights you can interrupt his kicks or heavies on reaction if you let him go to OF. Usually highlanders will understand not to try the stance when you poke him out of it 2-3 times as it would be just a suicide for them. Unless he gets a light parry when he gets free enter to OF and kick/heavy.

NHLGoldenKnight
04-03-2018, 09:25 PM
Well, as a one of few HLs that were fighting on the battlefield before the buff, I have to agree that he seems to be too good, to some extent at least.

We all have to remember what was the real issue. Shaman and Aramusha. Gladiator has too much going on for him as well. So instead of adjustment being made to those heroes, to bring them down to level of OGs, Ubisoft decided to go with different approach. Somehow, it is easier for them to promise rework for 12 heroes than to slightly nerf 2 or 3 heroes.

Now, real question is what next? If we are about to get reworks for those like Valkryie or Warde(some others as well), I would say that HL should be fine. However, if Ubisoft is just buying time by empty promises or if we are going to wait for a long time for new reworks, then I am concerned over HL.

Playing as a HL was challenging but very satisfying when you do good. And there were only few of us out there. Now, everything is different. There is a number of players who have no interest in HL as a hero but they only jumped on a bandwagon once they heard the word buff. Like any other tryhards, their goal is to spam moves and abuse recent buffs as much as possible just to improve their precious K/D. And that is an issue for me, because HLs are getting a bad name these days and there is no more pride in playing as one. But looking simply at the scoreboards in 4v4 modes, yes, HL is the new monster created by recent buffs. You can fight him, but if you end up on the ground even once, you are done.

Kahuf1
04-04-2018, 10:34 AM
Well, as a one of few HLs that were fighting on the battlefield before the buff, I have to agree that he seems to be too good, to some extent at least.

We all have to remember what was the real issue. Shaman and Aramusha. Gladiator has too much going on for him as well. So instead of adjustment being made to those heroes, to bring them down to level of OGs, Ubisoft decided to go with different approach. Somehow, it is easier for them to promise rework for 12 heroes than to slightly nerf 2 or 3 heroes.

Now, real question is what next? If we are about to get reworks for those like Valkryie or Warde(some others as well), I would say that HL should be fine. However, if Ubisoft is just buying time by empty promises or if we are going to wait for a long time for new reworks, then I am concerned over HL.

Playing as a HL was challenging but very satisfying when you do good. And there were only few of us out there. Now, everything is different. There is a number of players who have no interest in HL as a hero but they only jumped on a bandwagon once they heard the word buff. Like any other tryhards, their goal is to spam moves and abuse recent buffs as much as possible just to improve their precious K/D. And that is an issue for me, because HLs are getting a bad name these days and there is no more pride in playing as one. But looking simply at the scoreboards in 4v4 modes, yes, HL is the new monster created by recent buffs. You can fight him, but if you end up on the ground even once, you are done.

Hi fellow Highladner. I main Highlander before buff too (like 9 reps). And his buff will be about tracking and some new numbers in damage.

I dont play 4v4, just 1v1. And in 1v1 its still rly hard to play Highlander, cause nowdays meta is about fastlights or softfeints. Yea, tracking of grab is now hard to dodge if its softfeinted from kick. But with some practice its rly nice dodgable (wierd word :D ) and punish is free GB. And his heavy damage? 45 or 40? What do u expect in 1 second speed hit?

Dtheawesome9010
04-04-2018, 01:16 PM
I don't have time to read all of this but I'm just going to said what may or may not already have been said. HIghlanders do so much damage even when there stats are off . Reminds me of how much damage cents did when stats were off. Just yesterday i fought a custom match with a highlander stats on I had 120stats highlander was rep 1 i was 6 his stats were in the white and his damage was hard hitting despite my defense being strong. still a mean fight with them off my god.

Kahuf1
04-04-2018, 02:04 PM
Ok, u say 45 and 40 damage (Highlanders heavies) are too much. So why u dont say Shugokis heavies are too much damage? Or Raiders? Or Wardens? Or Kenseis? They have pretty same damage on heavy. So?

Vakris_One
04-04-2018, 03:54 PM
Well, as a one of few HLs that were fighting on the battlefield before the buff, I have to agree that he seems to be too good, to some extent at least.

We all have to remember what was the real issue. Shaman and Aramusha. Gladiator has too much going on for him as well. So instead of adjustment being made to those heroes, to bring them down to level of OGs, Ubisoft decided to go with different approach. Somehow, it is easier for them to promise rework for 12 heroes than to slightly nerf 2 or 3 heroes.

Now, real question is what next? If we are about to get reworks for those like Valkryie or Warde(some others as well), I would say that HL should be fine. However, if Ubisoft is just buying time by empty promises or if we are going to wait for a long time for new reworks, then I am concerned over HL.

Playing as a HL was challenging but very satisfying when you do good. And there were only few of us out there. Now, everything is different. There is a number of players who have no interest in HL as a hero but they only jumped on a bandwagon once they heard the word buff. Like any other tryhards, their goal is to spam moves and abuse recent buffs as much as possible just to improve their precious K/D. And that is an issue for me, because HLs are getting a bad name these days and there is no more pride in playing as one. But looking simply at the scoreboards in 4v4 modes, yes, HL is the new monster created by recent buffs. You can fight him, but if you end up on the ground even once, you are done.
I played Highlander and got him to Rep 12 before his buff and in my opinion what they gave him is exactly what he should have had when he was first envisioned and released as a character.

- Hard hitting heavies to offset their incredibly slow speed and the need to activate offensive stance to access unblockables.
- A quick transition into offensive stance that doubles up as a refinement to his Celtic Curse mind game - before this the Celtic Curse mind game didn't really exist since the actual soft feint transitions were slow and telegraphed.
- Better tracking on Caber Toss because it was quite frankly childs play to dodge it before. You could dodge the Kick and also dodge the Caber Toss at the same time just by dodging as soon as you saw the kick being prepared. Caber Toss was landed mostly because the opponent made a mistake.
- Offenstive stance lights no longer drain close to half his stamina bar per light attack. This one is self explanatory and was ridiculous that they could even release him in that state to begin with.

He was patently underpowered and only served as a noob stomper before. As we can see from the Dev's Season 4 hero chart he was bottom in both 1v1s and 4v4s at high level play - which is the level whereby players are most likely to utilise every inch of a character's kit in order to be competitive against the other characters. The fact that Highlander was the least competitive against most of the roster meant he had far too many bad matchups versus too few good matchups.

I think they buffed him apropriately by staying true to what the Highlander is supposed to be - a giant angry, possibly drunk Scottish man swinging a huge beast of a sword. But also a technical fighter whose key to success is utilising his offensive and defensive stances at the appropriate times, risking to get shut down and out played/predicted in order to get his big damage in.

The majority of complaints I read about him are centered around his Caber Toss and how it's too hard to dodge it on reaction if it is preceded by the kick soft feint. But it is actually possible to dodge it if you successfully predict it, which is after all a big part of any fighting game - predicting your opponent's next move. And if you haven't yet determined the opponent's pattern or you don't feel confident about the read then you can always opt out of the mind game entirely by rolling back and reseting the fight, which cuts out the Highlander's momentum since he has to start from scratch every time the fight is reset (because that's what his hero's moveset is like). That's pretty solid as far as fighting game mechanics go in my opinion. Both opponents always have options to test and probe each other and both have options in how to counter it.

Hormly
04-05-2018, 01:46 AM
Honestly i think the HL is one of the best designed fighters 😕 my only gripe is that im not fond of cancelling unblockables into other unblockables, as this is the sort of thing that enters "guessing" territory rather than reaction, which i always considered to be what separated FH from street fighter