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View Full Version : Question I know this is old, but it's been bugging me for a long time... (Ancient spoilers)



Asuka_Jr.
03-27-2018, 05:35 AM
This is my first time logging into the forum (never even bothered to see if there WAS an official AC forum. I'm slack, I know), and have a question that has been bugging me for a LONG time, and wanted to see if anyone had any ideas about it.

I tried to look around, but while there are comments and posts about the Lucy Stillman plotline, I didn't see direct reference to this, but I may have missed it...

Ok, here goes... In AC:B, when Desmond Miles kills Lucy Stillman in the temple...I remember really fighting against the process. At one point actually setting down the controller and saying 'If I don't move, it don't happen...'. In the end though, of course, I completed the scene, killed Lucy against my will, and Desmond collapses, suffering the psychotic break that is the basis of his condition in AC:R, locked into the Animus 2.0 to buffer his psyche till he can work through things to recover. Got it, no problem.

Now, advance to AC:3 (gah...do I REALLY have to play this wishy-washy guy? ugh.), I'm playing along, not actually enjoying myself, but really trying to get through this thing so I can see the rest of the Desmond Miles storyline, then get the HELL away from Connor...still suffering the effects of a drive to completionism...when I complete one section and exit the Animus to wander around the Temple, trying to figure out how to get through the energy door. Since there's such chance, I chat with everyone, and have a nice talk with Dad (thanks, John DeLancy). Desmond has a question about Lucy Stillman, and his phrasing leaves me staring at the screen saying '...what? WHAT THE HELL?!'...as he says that he killed Lucy VOLUNTARILY. He'd SEEN her taking his data back to Abstergo and thus the Templars, and KNEW he had to kill her... WTF?? When I PLAYED that scene, I had seen NOTHING of the sort! I WAS FORCED TO KILL HER!! WHAT DAMN GAME WERE YOU PLAYING DESMOND?!? <huff, huff> Ahem.

So, I'd hope the above paragraph gives a solid ground for the actual question: Did I miss something by NOT being able to completely finish the Animus memories at 100% that included the EVER so insignificant little information he was talking about? Or did Ubisoft do a "Yeah, Lucy died because she was bad, not because the mean old Juneau FORCED Desmond to kill her, 'cause being forced to kill someone (an act that might cause a person to go catatonic in denial) would be bad. But if it turned out that Desmond KNEW she was bad, and killed her of his own choice (not his first kill, btw), then THAT'S not bad (even though a killing with intent usually don't cause a person to go catatonic)."?

I mean, if I missed something due to failing to get 100% on all memories (gods, THAT would be hell), then OK, that's my bad. But seriously, killing someone (with Assassin trained skills) ON PURPOSE, usually don't make you recoil with such severity that you become catatonic, and have to be placed into a brain-manipulating machine to preserve your sanity... Or does it? =/

Any help folks can give me on understanding this issue that actually has me completely STOPPED in the series (seriously, I haven't been able to play again since shortly after doing this cutscene) so I can finish Connor's story (only 5.5yrs late) would be very much appreciated...

Thanks.

cawatrooper9
03-27-2018, 02:24 PM
Yeah, that's kind of a strange sequence of events

There was actually some key development of the Desmon/Lucy thing in AC Revelations' The Lost Archive (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/The_Lost_Archive)DLC.

If you want the gist of it...



Via the wiki:


Desmond would later elaborate to the rest of his team that when Juno forcefully influenced him through the Apple, he had brief visions of Lucy's acquisition of the artifact and its ramifications. He also stated that he could have fought Juno's hold on him but upon seeing the visions, he was reluctantly compelled to stop Lucy at any cost.

In addition, there are vague clues throughout the series that do point to Lucy being a double (triple?) agent and still working for Vidic- but I too was definitely blindsided!

Asuka_Jr.
03-28-2018, 07:05 AM
Thank you for that.

Ok, so I'm going to stick with my theory that someone at Ubisoft decided that having Desmond completely forced to kill Lucy would really make Juno into a 'bad' guy, and they wanted to maintain some sort of 'empathetic' plausibility for the later story arc, but as far as I'M concerned, it's all a load of Dingo's Kidneys.

One does NOT have a psychotic break from voluntarily 'stopping' a double(triple) agent that would help destroy freedom in the world if given the chance. One may react with grief that such action was necessary, but one does NOT suffer sufficient emotional shock that one completely retreats into ones own psyche to escape the reality of the action.

It was a cheap ploy on their part, and the fact that it was ONLY included in a completely separate game's DLC just PROVES that it was an afterthought. Someone said "Hey... Why would Desmond even CONSIDER helping Juno after she FORCED Desmond to kill Lucy at the end of Brotherhood?" ...and that question fell into a horrified silence, as they FINALLY remembered that sequence of events. So they hastily came up with some balderdash about how there were 'visions' of Lucy's betrayal (that OBVIOUSLY couldn't have been created out of whole cloth by Juno to get Desmond's cooperation in killing her - even though all Juno said was 'There is one who would accompany you to the gate, and she is not within our vision') and that Desmond could have resisted...except that if you ACTUALLY WATCH THE DAMN SCENE, he IS resisting her the whole way - 'Stop, please!' "You know little, we must guide you." "Cease your struggle!" 'NO!'...there is NO form of acquiescence in that scene. It is one of total dominance and force. Desmond collapses after striking her BECAUSE he had NO choice in the matter! All she had said was that there was some OTHER woman to accompany Desmond to 'the Gate' and simply removed Lucy from his company because she WASN'T the one they foresaw with him. "The way lies all before you. Only SHE remains to be found. Awaken the sixth. Go! ALONE!"

So, this will be my biggest gripe for the modern story arc. The devs made up a pathetic Deus Ex Machina to explain why Desmond 'chose' to kill Lucy, and totally ignored the fact that his UNWILLINGNESS to do so is what drove him into catatonia where the animus would introduce him to subject 16's psychic echo, and further explore Ezio Auditore's memories, including his final message to Desmond in the empty library of Masyaf. Total Balderdash. And VERY disappointing.

Thanks for the post, cawatrooper9. I appreciate the prompt reply, and understanding of my confusion.

cawatrooper9
03-28-2018, 09:47 PM
I think there was a lot of stuff going on there. Basically in an instant, Desmond was under the influence of a Piece of Eden, he had Lucy's treachery revealed to him, all while finally at long last succumbing to the symptoms of the bleeding effect.

Personally, I find the story to be believable enough- I just wish it hadn't been relegated to the DLC.

Asuka_Jr.
03-29-2018, 09:08 AM
I really wish I could join you on that interpretation, but if you go back and watch the cutscene, there is no point in that process that Desmond's words or actions show anything less than total slave control level. If they'd even given a little 'Animus' flash around him, and had his expression change, or a tone of voice that indicated horrified realization, or even just some phrase in there like 'Lucy...! For the Templars? Why?!' and then struck, or even AFTER he struck, I'd have had no problem with it. But there was nothing in that process that would lead you to believe that at the time they wrote the scene that it was anything other than what it looked like: Juno recognizing a woman that Desmond was too close to, that muddied the waters of their vision of how events were to play out, and deciding to 'guide' Desmond to eliminate her for the 'greater good' of ensuring the vision was completed as it was 'meant' to be.

I'm sure there is no way any of the Devs would admit it, but I really believe my theory is correct. Further proof? Go back through the scenes in AC:R when Desmond is in with Subject 16. Even then Desmond holds out hope that maybe Lucy had survived the attack, until he hears the team members talking about her funeral, and he is once again emotionally hit hard. Again, not the reaction of someone who 'knew' that she was going to betray the Assassins (and all humanity, at the same time). It was the reaction of someone who had NOT wanted to even strike, much less kill. There was no free will, no knowledge, no 'visions of betrayal'. Nothing. That's why it was put into the DLC, because players likely started commenting about how angry they were about Lucy's death at Juno's 'mind raping' hands - after all, that is exactly what happened. Desmond had the same thing done to him that anyone who had the powers of the Apple of Eden used on them had suffered: total subjugation. The difference was that because of his lineage and experiences in his genetic past, he didn't have his mind fogged, he just had his body FORCED to do Juno's will.

Believe me, I'd LOVE to agree with your assessment of the events, but the evidence against it is MUCH greater than for it. Like I said, the addition of the 'Oh, by the way, Desmond wasn't REALLY forced to kill Lucy by Juno, he could have stopped at any time, but he agreed that she had to die because she was a traitor.' to the DLC was only added to take the plot where they finally decided to go. If it was INTENDED from the start, he would never have reacted as much as he did to hearing confirmation that Lucy was dead. He DIDN'T agree she should die, he COULDN'T interfere in what he was forced to do, and THAT is why he had his mental breakdown. THAT all made sense (and it's why it was never implied otherwise in the actual GAME of AC:B), and its why it HAD to be added after the fact, because they realized the whole forced-killing of Lucy had caused too much backlash in the fandom. And given his emotional reaction to verification of her death, there is NO WAY that he had ANY voluntary action in her killing. They had painted themselves into a corner, and the only way they could come up with to justify Desmond not having a world-shattering hatred for Juno (possibly to the point of outright rejecting ANY plan she had a hand in) was to make up a Deus Ex Machina of 'Oh, well he KNEW she was going to betray them, so it's all ok.'... It's the worst form of 'damn, we really didn't think that through far enough in advance, did we?' response. I haven't looked it up, but did they have a change of primary writers between AC:B and AC:R? That would explain it... But still...