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gpang788
02-24-2010, 04:59 AM
Need help improving my aim in the BF109-F4

Are there any training missions I can download specially for gunnery practice??

Remembered someone once posted some quick training mission specially for gunnery practice once?

Anyone still remembers or knows?

gpang788
02-24-2010, 04:59 AM
Need help improving my aim in the BF109-F4

Are there any training missions I can download specially for gunnery practice??

Remembered someone once posted some quick training mission specially for gunnery practice once?

Anyone still remembers or knows?

thefruitbat
02-24-2010, 05:06 AM
go into qmb, make your self invinceble, unlimited ammo, vs 16 yak 1's.

Gunnery mission done, all you have to worry about is shooting them down. Its just a pure shooting exersise.

TinyTim
02-24-2010, 05:24 AM
If I'd have to give you a single advice on how to improve gunnery - <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">reviewing tracks</span> would be it.

Set a QMB mission, start recording a track, shoot some foes down, and then immediately (when it's still fresh) review the track from different outside views, so you can clearly see where you missed and for how much, and estimate how much deflection you should use to hit.

DuckyFluff
02-24-2010, 05:38 AM
And of course switch on "arcade" in conf ini so that you can see your actual hits http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Choctaw111
02-24-2010, 05:45 AM
When I first got Il2 in 2001, I thought I was a good aerial gunner, coming from another sim.
It turned out I couldn't hit ANYTHING.
I was so frustrated.
I did what was already mentioned.
I went into the Quick Mission Builder and selected unlimited ammo and a bunch a friendly planes I could use for target practice.
I would also save the track and review it afterward.
After doing this a a few days, maybe weeks, I was starting to get a really good feel for where my bullets were going to go before I even squeezed off a shot.

Ba5tard5word
02-24-2010, 09:56 AM
The three things you need for good gunnery skills in Il-2 are practice, practice, practice. You just have to keep at it.

Maybe do QMB missions against some big lumbering plane like C-47's or unarmed bombers like the giant Russian TB bomber, shooting some of these down will get you used to aiming and will be better for seeing where your bullets hit then going up against smaller planes, and also get you more used to how your plane handles when trying to line up a shot. Then you can try smaller planes.

The 109-F has kind of weak guns, two small and weak 7.62mm MG's with I think 500 rounds. These won't do much damage and are mainly for eating away at your enemy and acting to help line up your more powerful cannon fire. With any 109 I really have to get close to the enemy because they don't have a lot of cannon ammo and their nose-mounted guns for whatever reason always seem trickier to get hits in than wing-mounted guns. So I just get in as close as possible and squeeze the trigger in bursts, it usually takes several good hits of cannon fire to kill any fighter though sometimes you get lucky. I kinda prefer the Fw-190 because of its armament, you can kill pretty much everything with a single burst from further out and without being as careful about aiming. The 109-E is also nice because it has two cannons in the wings, though only 60 rounds for them which sucks, but 1000 rounds in its 7.62mm MG's so you can actually shoot down an enemy fighter with them if you are persistent.

M_Gunz
02-24-2010, 09:58 AM
You can set up and shoot "friendlies". They don't dodge. Also bridges, buildings, road intersections....
One good FMB mission will also work as you can quickly change it and save as another to use different
planes.

+1 to using arcade and reviewing tracks for gunnery practice.

thefruitbat
02-24-2010, 10:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
The three things you need for good gunnery skills in Il-2 are practice, practice, practice. You just have to keep at it.

Maybe do QMB missions against some big lumbering plane like C-47's or unarmed bombers like the giant Russian TB bomber, shooting some of these down will get you used to aiming and will be better for seeing where your bullets hit then going up against smaller planes, and also get you more used to how your plane handles when trying to line up a shot. Then you can try smaller planes.

The 109-F has kind of weak guns, two small and weak 7.62mm MG's with I think 500 rounds. These won't do much damage and are mainly for eating away at your enemy and acting to help line up your more powerful cannon fire. With any 109 I really have to get close to the enemy because they don't have a lot of cannon ammo and their nose-mounted guns for whatever reason always seem trickier to get hits in than wing-mounted guns. So I just get in as close as possible and squeeze the trigger in bursts, it usually takes several good hits of cannon fire to kill any fighter though sometimes you get lucky. I kinda prefer the Fw-190 because of its armament, you can kill pretty much everything with a single burst from further out and without being as careful about aiming. The 109-E is also nice because it has two cannons in the wings, though only 60 rounds for them which sucks, but 1000 rounds in its 7.62mm MG's so you can actually shoot down an enemy fighter with them if you are persistent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

agree about the bf109 f2 havig weak guns, but definatly not the f4, which has the mg151 20mm cannon (as opposed to the 15mm mg151) in the nose, i can easily shoot down 4 planes with that before i run out of ammo offline, i think my record is 9 with that offline in a dgen campaign, its my fav weapon system, like a surgeons knife.

Sillius_Sodus
02-24-2010, 10:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gpang788:
Need help improving my aim in the BF109-F4

Are there any training missions I can download specially for gunnery practice??

Remembered someone once posted some quick training mission specially for gunnery practice once?

Anyone still remembers or knows? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good advice here gpang778. I would suggest you don't use unlimited ammo when you practice. It's not hard to restart a mission and it will teach you to be patient with your shots.

When I first started out with IL2, I could barely hit the ground when I shot at it, let alone hit another aircraft http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif

I found that slowing the sim down using the time compression key was the most useful for me. I started out at 1/4 speed, then 1/2 until I could eventually keep the sights on target at normal speed. With the slower speeds you can almost see where each round is going ant it becomes quite easy to see if you are pulling enough lead, allowing for gravity or in trim when you fire.

Frankthetank36
02-24-2010, 12:18 PM
Get MCFS2 and play that for a while. The planes in that game are absolutely TINY. That was my first flight sim and I think that made me a better gunner in IL2.

Ba5tard5word
02-24-2010, 12:20 PM
I think unlimited ammo is ok just to get a feel for where the bullets go and how to control your plane to get the best shot, but definitely having limited ammo quickly teaches you to be a much better and more efficient shooter. When I used to use unlimited ammo I'd start firing around 600m out from a fighter, now that I use limited ammo I try to start firing around 250m or closer.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">agree about the bf109 f2 havig weak guns, but definatly not the f4, which has the mg151 20mm cannon (as opposed to the 15mm mg151) in the nose, i can easily shoot down 4 planes with that before i run out of ammo offline, i think my record is 9 with that offline in a dgen campaign, its my fav weapon system, like a surgeons knife. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's an ok cannon but having just one isn't as nice as having 2 or 4 or whatever. I find you really have to get in close to the enemy just to get a shot in, and then you have to get several in to get a kill, like 200m or closer. It definitely is like a knife and you have to be careful with it. But with an Fw-190 I can usually quickly get a kill at around 300m out with a quick burst of cannon fire, and that is just with the inboard guns. Something about its gun placement just seems better for me, I can easily get hits in at 300m whereas if I fire with the Bf-109 from 250m to 300m I miss almost every shot. Obviously the solution is to get in closer though. It's funny...the Fw-190 lets me get really lazy with gunnery but requires a lot of skill to fly well, but the 109 is really easy to fly but hard to hit the target with...

Gammelpreusse
02-24-2010, 12:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
I think unlimited ammo is ok just to get a feel for where the bullets go and how to control your plane to get the best shot, but definitely having limited ammo quickly teaches you to be a much better and more efficient shooter. When I used to use unlimited ammo I'd start firing around 600m out from a fighter, now that I use limited ammo I try to start firing around 250m or closer.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">agree about the bf109 f2 havig weak guns, but definatly not the f4, which has the mg151 20mm cannon (as opposed to the 15mm mg151) in the nose, i can easily shoot down 4 planes with that before i run out of ammo offline, i think my record is 9 with that offline in a dgen campaign, its my fav weapon system, like a surgeons knife. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's an ok cannon but having just one isn't as nice as having 2 or 4 or whatever. I find you really have to get in close to the enemy just to get a shot in, and then you have to get several in to get a kill, like 200m or closer. It definitely is like a knife and you have to be careful with it. But with an Fw-190 I can usually quickly get a kill at around 300m out with a quick burst of cannon fire, and that is just with the inboard guns. Something about its gun placement just seems better for me, I can easily get hits in at 300m whereas if I fire with the Bf-109 from 250m to 300m I miss almost every shot. Obviously the solution is to get in closer though. It's funny...the Fw-190 lets me get really lazy with gunnery but requires a lot of skill to fly well, but the 109 is really easy to fly but hard to hit the target with... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You always have to get close to your enemy, no matter what plane or what weapon you are using =)

Fruitbat put it best. The 109F+ is a scalpel. She provides all nessecary tools for that, high stability, great maneuverabilty in all directions but in high speeds, and a powerful center mounted gun enabling for precision shooting within a great range of distance. The 109 is more about precision then effectiveness, a hunter, not a warrior.

And with all planes, it's simply about practice. Fly the 109 not only once in a while but more often and you will be suprised how fast you develop a loathing for wing mounted guns =)

Rjel
02-24-2010, 08:02 PM
I'd also suggest using your selected target planes as friendlies. They may not maneuver, but it is a great way to get a good feel for how they look in your gun sight from almost any angle you choose, when they truly are in killing range and how far you might need to lead them in a defection shot.

Jumoschwanz
02-24-2010, 08:23 PM
All good advice here so far. I go with the QMB/invincible/unlimited idea.

Of course you are talking about cockpit-on gunnery right?

Lastly, I see you have been a member of the forum for eight years, happy belated forum-birthday.

gpang788
02-24-2010, 09:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
All good advice here so far. I go with the QMB/invincible/unlimited idea.

Of course you are talking about cockpit-on gunnery right?

Lastly, I see you have been a member of the forum for eight years, happy belated forum-birthday. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup 8 years on and I am still struggling with my shooting! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Sad isnt it?? hahaha

BTW I found that in the spits& Hurricanes, deflection shooting or even just aiming is a whole lot easier then the BF109.

Other then the guns being wing mounted, has anybody got a better explanation as to why Hurris & Spits are easier to shoot in?

FlixFlix
02-24-2010, 11:22 PM
I suggest you dont shoot at Yaks in QMB, take Ratas and Chaikas. They are much harder to hit. And make the AI ace.
Also, as mentioned before, don't use unlimited ammo. It will spoil your shooting.

TheGrunch
02-25-2010, 12:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gpang788:
Other then the guns being wing mounted, has anybody got a better explanation as to why Hurris & Spits are easier to shoot in? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe you're just used to wing-mounted guns? Maybe you're used to the trajectories of the Hispano and Brownings?
The only other reason I can think of is that most of the aircraft I fly use wing mounted guns and it usually takes me a while to get used to engine-mounted cannons again - I think it's because inside my gun harmonisation range I've learnt to aim with only one wing's armament, and aiming with one wing doesn't really work in the 109F. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Maybe you do the same?

gpang788
02-25-2010, 01:09 AM
Yup could be the trajectory.

Noticed that in a deflection shot in the spit theres no need to pull too much lead. Seems like its guns are tilted slightly upwards?? One can see the convergence point well clear above the spit's nose, making deflection shooting that much easier.

In the 109. Thats not the case. u need to lead more which usually causes the target to disappear under the nose, making it really difficult to aim.

The good 109 pilots, as I've seen on youtube, tend to practice "instintive shooting" a whole lot me thinks i.e. shooting without consciously aiming at the target. They dun even have to see where their targets are to down them.

Remarkable...

Can some good 109 pilot please elaborate on this?

TheGrunch
02-25-2010, 01:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gpang788:
Seems like its guns are tilted slightly upwards?? One can see the convergence point well clear above the spit's nose, making deflection shooting that much easier. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's right, they're harmonised to pass through the convergence point accounting for bullet drop as well, the 109's engine cannon can't really be adjusted upward I guess.
Those pilots are using cockpit references, I think. They line the target up with a certain part of the canopy so that they'll pass in front of the nose in a particular location. What you don't see in Youtube videos is all the failed attempts, of course.
I only started playing this game again recently, and I was never very good when I was younger on FB, but since I've been playing more (and online instead of purely offline) I found that I habitually line these shots up nowadays. I'm not often successful, but I'd say I'm getting more confident.
My gunnery is already well above my flying skill (which is pretty poor unless measured by SoF-airquake standards), I get hit rates around 12+% regularly online, which I'd say is better than a fair amount of pilots online, even those who are much better fliers. I just need to find my canopy references and get the timing of those shots down. Problem is that on full-switch I don't often get to shoot. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
What I did to improve my gunnery was what all of these guys have suggested in these threads, before I did that I was getting hit rates around 3-5% online, so it DOES work, now I need to do the same with piloting...back to reading In Pursuit I guess.

BillSwagger
02-25-2010, 01:25 AM
I like the 109 but i don't fly it much because of its visibility. Seeing over the nose is made possible with 6dof, but since the site is not fixed down the middle i usually end up bleeding a few shots until i get a bead, especially in turns.



Bill

gpang788
02-25-2010, 01:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheGrunch:
That's right, they're harmonised to pass through the convergence point accounting for bullet drop as well.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoa never knew this! Is this what they do in a real spit?

TheGrunch
02-25-2010, 02:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gpang788:
Whoa never knew this! Is this what they do in a real spit? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, they set them on the ground with the tail raised and then adjusted each gun individually with a device that allowed them to look down the barrel I think. Then they fired the guns at a wall with a target and adjusted more. Something like that, anyway. It's been a long time since I've read about it, I don't know whether there's a website that covers the process in detail.

Gammelpreusse
02-25-2010, 02:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gpang788:
Yup could be the trajectory.

Noticed that in a deflection shot in the spit theres no need to pull too much lead. Seems like its guns are tilted slightly upwards?? One can see the convergence point well clear above the spit's nose, making deflection shooting that much easier.

In the 109. Thats not the case. u need to lead more which usually causes the target to disappear under the nose, making it really difficult to aim.

The good 109 pilots, as I've seen on youtube, tend to practice "instintive shooting" a whole lot me thinks i.e. shooting without consciously aiming at the target. They dun even have to see where their targets are to down them.

Remarkable...

Can some good 109 pilot please elaborate on this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will post a track of a lone 109 attacking 4 fully armed A20s this evening. This should give you an idea how you need to treat a 109.

Good aiming is mandatory, there is no way around that.

But you are right, with TrackIR and in close dogfight situations you do not have time to "think". You just align and shoot. Practice, practice, practice until you have the 151/20 ballistics in your blood. It's one of the best 20mm cannons in the game.

I am still convinced, over the long run, the 109 is one of the most satisfying planes in this game, despite the lack of firepower making it rather inconvinient for rookies. Ultimately it is capable to do everything you can ask for in a fighter of WW2, but it takes work to get to that potential.

TheGrunch
02-25-2010, 02:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gammelpreusse:
I am still convinced, over the long run, the 109 is one of the most satisfying planes in this game, despite the lack of firepower making it rather inconvinient for rookies. Ultimately it is capable to do everything you can ask for in a fighter of WW2, but it takes work to get to that potential. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Flying on the Lake Ladoga map on UKDed3_MDF as the Reds and then switching to blue to even the teams made me feel almost invincible. I got 3 kills in as many minutes against Hurricanes and P-40s. In early 1942 the 109F is a hotrod with more than enough armament to do the job against any contemporary fighter, no doubt about that.

Erkki_M
02-25-2010, 03:21 AM
Not much lead needed with allied planes = turbolaser effect! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Seriously speaking though, you might want to pull just a bit more lead than you think you'd need, fire and at the same loosen the turn a bit, so that the bandit will fly through your wall of fire. Works very well with planes that have heavy armament, such as Tempest, FW, P38, P47 etc. With 109 I when shooting inside turn I suggest pulling more lead than you need again, but keep shooting; sooner or later he'll fly into your burst, and you'll often see it wasnt "too much" lead after all. Dont do this with mk108 armed 109s though, you'll just waste ammo, keep shooting 3-5 rounds per burst taking "too much" lead, or 10-15 rounds in bounces, the 108 is not exactly unforgiving to bad aiming... But once you hit someone inside his turn, the pyrotechnics pay back all the missed shots you've had. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

EDIT: TheGrunch, you knew 109Fs never flew over Lake Ladoga? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

TheGrunch
02-25-2010, 03:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
EDIT: TheGrunch, you knew 109Fs never flew over Lake Ladoga? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I never said they did! Don't blame me, I don't run the server! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

gpang788
02-25-2010, 04:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gammelpreusse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gpang788:
Yup could be the trajectory.

Noticed that in a deflection shot in the spit theres no need to pull too much lead. Seems like its guns are tilted slightly upwards?? One can see the convergence point well clear above the spit's nose, making deflection shooting that much easier.

In the 109. Thats not the case. u need to lead more which usually causes the target to disappear under the nose, making it really difficult to aim.

The good 109 pilots, as I've seen on youtube, tend to practice "instintive shooting" a whole lot me thinks i.e. shooting without consciously aiming at the target. They dun even have to see where their targets are to down them.

Remarkable...

Can some good 109 pilot please elaborate on this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will post a track of a lone 109 attacking 4 fully armed A20s this evening. This should give you an idea how you need to treat a 109.

Good aiming is mandatory, there is no way around that.

But you are right, with TrackIR and in close dogfight situations you do not have time to "think". You just align and shoot. Practice, practice, practice until you have the 151/20 ballistics in your blood. It's one of the best 20mm cannons in the game.

I am still convinced, over the long run, the 109 is one of the most satisfying planes in this game, despite the lack of firepower making it rather inconvinient for rookies. Ultimately it is capable to do everything you can ask for in a fighter of WW2, but it takes work to get to that potential. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cant wait for the video..

Erkki_M
02-25-2010, 06:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheGrunch:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
EDIT: TheGrunch, you knew 109Fs never flew over Lake Ladoga? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I never said they did! Don't blame me, I don't run the server! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah I know, just that the servers with "historical mission" have nothing to do with history. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

thefruitbat
02-25-2010, 06:50 AM
nothing particualy speacial, but here's me in a 109f4 vs 4 yak7's, limited ammo of course, just done on 4.09clean for you, so will play on any version, just drop the ntrk in your records folder, and watch back in tracks. Theres a couple of nice deflection shots in there, but pretty standard fair in general.

http://www.mediafire.com/?fgijz3nlwym

gpang788
02-25-2010, 09:32 AM
Thanks fruitbat!

JtD
02-25-2010, 09:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheGrunch:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
EDIT: TheGrunch, you knew 109Fs never flew over Lake Ladoga? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I never said they did! Don't blame me, I don't run the server! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah I know, just that the servers with "historical mission" have nothing to do with history. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what did JG54 do?

TheGrunch
02-25-2010, 09:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
So what did JG54 do? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The server requires you to use Finnish markings on the map. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
No, I had no idea, Erkki, nice server though. Why don't you point that out on the Battlefields forum?

JtD
02-25-2010, 10:09 AM
JG 54 operated some of their 109 F's from Finland, but I don't think the Finns used F model 109's.

Erkki_M
02-25-2010, 11:44 AM
Finnish Air Force only operated 109 G2s, G6s and G8s. First G2s from March 43 first from Helsinki and Lappeenranta. The Luftwaffe units that operated here were far in the North or in the Helsinki(near the West side of the Gulf of Finland map we have in game) area, except for the Kampfverband Kuhlmey, sent by Hitler himself, which operated FW190A6s, 109G8s and Ju87s over the Karelian Isthmus and might have flown over Ladoga... In 1944, that.

Gammelpreusse
02-25-2010, 11:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gpang788:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gammelpreusse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gpang788:
Yup could be the trajectory.

Noticed that in a deflection shot in the spit theres no need to pull too much lead. Seems like its guns are tilted slightly upwards?? One can see the convergence point well clear above the spit's nose, making deflection shooting that much easier.

In the 109. Thats not the case. u need to lead more which usually causes the target to disappear under the nose, making it really difficult to aim.

The good 109 pilots, as I've seen on youtube, tend to practice "instintive shooting" a whole lot me thinks i.e. shooting without consciously aiming at the target. They dun even have to see where their targets are to down them.

Remarkable...

Can some good 109 pilot please elaborate on this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will post a track of a lone 109 attacking 4 fully armed A20s this evening. This should give you an idea how you need to treat a 109.

Good aiming is mandatory, there is no way around that.

But you are right, with TrackIR and in close dogfight situations you do not have time to "think". You just align and shoot. Practice, practice, practice until you have the 151/20 ballistics in your blood. It's one of the best 20mm cannons in the game.

I am still convinced, over the long run, the 109 is one of the most satisfying planes in this game, despite the lack of firepower making it rather inconvinient for rookies. Ultimately it is capable to do everything you can ask for in a fighter of WW2, but it takes work to get to that potential. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cant wait for the video.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the vid did not work, I still have to find out a good way to upload FRAP videos to youtube.

However, here is the track. You will need the Ultrapack2.0 to propperly run it, though.

http://www.filefront.com/15680041/bf109_a20.ntrk

As you will see it is most important to not just loiter behind the target.

P.S. nice flying there, fruitbat!

Jumoschwanz
02-25-2010, 11:57 AM
First, of course it is going to be easier to make a shot with a Spitfire because it has six deadly guns converging then fanning out so if the target is at anything but the convergence point it has a shotgun-spray and pray-effect. With the 109s single cannon combined with two near-useless machine guns concentrated in the nose, you have to be that much better a shot than you do in an aircraft with a spread of fire.

And of course the bf109 and FW190 in this sim do have a restrictive forward view compared to many other aircraft in the sim which compounds things.

Being able to make blind leading shots is an essential skill if you are going to do well with these axis fighters.

In Fruitbat's track he does fine, but every shot he takes has the aircraft visible in the crosshair so it does not show anything particular to shotmaking with the axis fighters.

In this track:

http://www.mediafire.com/?zm3dgm20ozw

There are at least three shots made with the target hidden beneath the nose of the bf109, so you have to watch it first with manual views disabled to see which shots are blind, then enable views so you can see the hits from the perspective of each aircraft that is fired upon.

The only way you are going to bat at least .500 making blind shots is through hours of practice that will enable you to have a sense of where the target aircraft is despite not being able to actually see it.

I think one advantage of the hat-switch over Track IR is that your mind can know that when the cockpit presents a particular view, it knows that the aircraft is in a particular attitude with the ground, and in a particular relationship with it's cone of fire.

With Track IR presenting and infinite number of cockpit views and orientations, there is much more to learn and to go wrong in cockpit-on shot-making.

Since unlike real pilots, we lack physical communion and feeling with our aircraft, other things must take the place of what is missing, and for me it is the 17 finite views offered by my preferred method of panning views.

So back to shot-making with the cockpit on. To do well in this you have to be able to bat at least .500, that is make at least half the shots you take during any fight. But this is complicated by the fact of "How many kinds of shots can you make?".

If you can make a shot on an aircraft from any angle, blind or not, and make at least half or more of your blind leading shots, then you will do okay.

If you are only good at one kind of shot, then the guy you are up against who can make two or three kinds more will shoot you down every time as he will have twice or thrice the chances to fire at you than you do him.

Add to this knowing your particular aircraft and it's guns.

I have stated this information before, but I never hear anyone else mention it enough:

The range for all the guns and their trajectories is different. The Range of axis machine guns and 15,20 and mk108 cannons is 1 kilometer. The mk103 and 3.7 is further. The Hispano cannons on Spits will shoot 1.3 Kilometers. The allied fifty cals will go 1.7 kilometers.

The early axis 20mm cannons like on the emil and outboard positions on early fw190s drop more and need more lead, but on the early FW190 this increases the shotgun effect of both dead-on and lead shots!

Just like the different trajectories of the Spits combined cannons and guns gives it more of a spread and chance of hitting.

So setting your convergence on aircraft with guns in the wings to match what range you like to shoot at is very important, especially with fifty cals a shot at convergence will tear a plane apart, but if your hits are not converged on the target then you will only be hitting with one or two guns and you will join the "fifties are not strong enough in this sim" club.

S!

JtD
02-25-2010, 12:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
Finnish Air Force only operated 109 G2s, G6s and G8s. First G2s from March 43 first from Helsinki and Lappeenranta. The Luftwaffe units that operated here were far in the North or in the Helsinki(near the West side of the Gulf of Finland map we have in game) area, except for the Kampfverband Kuhlmey, sent by Hitler himself, which operated FW190A6s, 109G8s and Ju87s over the Karelian Isthmus and might have flown over Ladoga... In 1944, that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Parts of JG 54 were stationed 70 km away from lake Ladoga, 50 km away from Leningrad from late 1941 on, using 109 F models. Why would they never fly over lake Ladoga, which was one of the prime targets for the Luftwaffe?

thefruitbat
02-25-2010, 04:06 PM
@jumoschwanz,

Yes none of my shots were under the nose, you're right. But i only flew one fight to record that track, and the only time i should/could of got an under the nose shot was when the 2nd? went vertical, should of nailed him under the nose, but messsed it up.

I feel like i should almost record a few more, but, then thats not really the point. I find nothing more satisfying than a deflection shot from under the nose, to see a plane come back into view minus a wing or on fire, but what is more important, is to take the shots that are on offer to you at the end of the day.

As i said when i posted the track, nothing spectacular, shooting wise.

In General,

shooting is all about rudder control imo, espescially under the nose shots, you have to imagine the trajectory, apply enough rudder to compensate for the quick pull to get in front, to keep it on that same line, and then shoot. With practise it becomes easier, and you will find that you will be doing it quite often, BUT only when those chances present themselves, its not something you should set out to do, more like another feather in your cap. Shooting under the nose is NOT specific to axis fighter either, at all.

Erkki_M
02-26-2010, 12:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
Finnish Air Force only operated 109 G2s, G6s and G8s. First G2s from March 43 first from Helsinki and Lappeenranta. The Luftwaffe units that operated here were far in the North or in the Helsinki(near the West side of the Gulf of Finland map we have in game) area, except for the Kampfverband Kuhlmey, sent by Hitler himself, which operated FW190A6s, 109G8s and Ju87s over the Karelian Isthmus and might have flown over Ladoga... In 1944, that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Parts of JG 54 were stationed 70 km away from lake Ladoga, 50 km away from Leningrad from late 1941 on, using 109 F models. Why would they never fly over lake Ladoga, which was one of the prime targets for the Luftwaffe? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Afaik the LW fighter units South of Leningrad only flew JABO missions in Oranienbaum/Leningrad/Leningrad-Moscow railroad and escorted Stukas to the same areas. Norbert Hannig mentions they were allowed to fly free hunting only inside the German-occupied territories as well. Lake Ladoga itself wasnt a target: the railroad was much more important, and remained the main target as it was always either quickly repaired or never completely cut thanks to its multiple tracks.

From Finland and from Finnish-occupied territories, I think the only 109F operator was JG5 in Lapland, in the Ice Sea front.

Dag_nabbitt
02-26-2010, 05:05 AM
hi one tool i found invaluable is snipers corner my shooting is still pretty bad but at least now i can scare the **** out of the enemy
and when i find myself missing by miles it helps to have a picture in your mind of where you need to be aiming.
I'll give a quick example.
Im in a 109 in a campaign flying against i-16 and yaks could i hit those tiny little i-16 not likley!!! quick go on the snipers corner. wow i really do need alot more lead back into the campaign 1 i-16 toast me dancing around the living room. deep joy.!!

JtD
02-26-2010, 07:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:

Afaik the LW fighter units South of Leningrad only flew JABO missions in Oranienbaum/Leningrad/Leningrad-Moscow railroad and escorted Stukas to the same areas. Norbert Hannig mentions they were allowed to fly free hunting only inside the German-occupied territories as well. Lake Ladoga itself wasnt a target: the railroad was much more important, and remained the main target as it was always either quickly repaired or never completely cut thanks to its multiple tracks.

From Finland and from Finnish-occupied territories, I think the only 109F operator was JG5 in Lapland, in the Ice Sea front. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to Ospreys JG 54 book, JG 54 was operating above Lake Ladoga. It was to protect the Axis shipping in the lake.
From July to August 1942 15 109 F-4's from 1 & 2 JG 54 were operating from Finnish soil for operations above Lake Ladoga.
Sorry I only found this now, but searching through books for specific info takes some time.

At any rate, your statement that "109F models never flew over Lake Ladoga" is wrong, the http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif unjustified, the "the servers with "historical mission" have nothing to do with history." wrong again and finally the http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif would belong to you.
Obviously, there are historical servers where even you can learn about history, if only you chose to listen.

TheGrunch
02-26-2010, 09:21 AM
Well, the server is still a BIT unhistorical in that it requires blues to use Finnish markings. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JtD
02-26-2010, 09:24 AM
It requires to use Finnish markings, except for the 109's which are German. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
---
But I think I've derailed this topic far enough, so I'll shut up now.

So, keep the ball centered.

Erkki_M
02-26-2010, 10:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
From July to August 1942 15 109 F-4's from 1 & 2 JG 54 were operating from Finnish soil for operations above Lake Ladoga. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFAIK areas south of Leningrad are not Finland... Or theres something horribly wrong with my geography.

Until mid 43 and 109G2s arriving to Suulajärvi most advanced fighters one can find in Karelia were B-239s...

Xiolablu3
02-26-2010, 09:59 PM
Hispano cannons did have a higher muzzle velocity than the MG151/20, and much higher than the MG/FF 20mm on the 109E and the early FW190A's.

The gun barrel and shell casing were both larger in the Hispano mk2 and it held more powder.

Maybe this is why the Hispanos need less deflection? (if they do?)

Gammelpreusse
02-27-2010, 04:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Hispano cannons did have a higher muzzle velocity than the MG151/20, and much higher than the MG/FF 20mm on the 109E and the early FW190A's.

The gun barrel and shell casing were both larger in the Hispano mk2 and it held more powder.

Maybe this is why the Hispanos need less deflection? (if they do?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Duh, Xio, higher muzzle velocity, does it need less deflection? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

gpang788
03-02-2010, 12:19 AM
Anyway to find out what the muzzle velocity was?

Erkki_M
03-02-2010, 12:34 AM
Yep. At least a utility named IL-2 wingman by =BY=YOUSS(I think, him again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) shows in-game statistics of aircraft and guns. My version of the Il2 wingman is still for version 4.04 but I doubt other guns than Bredas(which were, apparently, changed in 4.09 patch?) have been changed since.

Might be other programs as well, I'll do some searching and repost later today.