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Bearcat99
11-21-2005, 07:52 PM
Set the AI to disengage once you get a bandit smoking. I hate it when I get a bandit smoking or take out his engine, effectively removing him from the fight.. then along comes the AI to pepper him some more.. in the meantime there are 5 or 6 other live fully functional bandits all around.

Bearcat99
11-21-2005, 07:52 PM
Set the AI to disengage once you get a bandit smoking. I hate it when I get a bandit smoking or take out his engine, effectively removing him from the fight.. then along comes the AI to pepper him some more.. in the meantime there are 5 or 6 other live fully functional bandits all around.

Bearcat99
11-21-2005, 10:27 PM
Yeah I know... another variation on the "I hate the kill stealing while I get hammered AI.." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

LEXX_Luthor
11-21-2005, 10:35 PM
Chasing a smoking plane, especially bombers, was a key part of WW2 air warfare. Granted, maybe not in a tight furball Dogfight, but very little of WW2 air warfare was Dogfight.

Bear, what happens if smoking bombers are escaping, do the fighters let them go?

AI used to chase wildly burning and Flaming planes, so we are doing better. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Smoking planes are a reasonable target.

-HH-Quazi
11-21-2005, 10:46 PM
We should have the ability to order the AI not to keep attacking an enemy ac that is percieved by the flight lead or wing lead to no longer be a threat. Just because an enemy ac is smoking doesn't mean it can't be effective. The human element in a flight can make this call more effectively than AI, unless it is somehow written in the game code for the AI to recognize a certain level or degree of damage, and to disengage at that point. Either way would be better than what we have now.

LEXX_Luthor
11-21-2005, 10:55 PM
Quazi:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We should have the ability to order the AI not to keep attacking an enemy ac that is percieved by the flight lead or wing lead to no longer be a threat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Player orders to AI won't work beyond the tiny number of planes under the player's control as Leader. Think ~~&gt; how would other AI fighter formations "get the message" and what about enemy fighters?

Quazi:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">unless it is somehow written in the game code for the AI to recognize a certain level or degree of damage, and to disengage at that point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps smoking fighters could be let go, but smoking bombers can still be a worthy target. Don't know about fighter-bombers hehe. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Daiichidoku
11-22-2005, 03:40 AM
jus gotta tell them to loiter, or rtb till your wetwork is done, or, if you cant pull rank...

well, i pop out from the back of the line and take off while my sqd leader is still doing his checks...by the time those bozos get there, ive killed everything i need tohttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



id rather see a feature that allows the first to contact the enemy, or the one closest to the enemy, to hit a button that changes its icon colour, or perhaps turns a generic purple light on the enemy plane on, so that your ONLINE friendlies will know that guy is more or less accounted for, and to perhaps cover six instead, or find thier own d a m n prey! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

tigertalon
11-22-2005, 04:32 AM
Problem IMO is also that IRL whenever there was bandit on someones 6, they FLED LIKE HELL towards friendly territory, on many occasions such pilots bailed out without even being shot at! Many such cases, when allied fighter pilots bailled without even being shot at, are known in early PTO because of zero reputation, and same goes for BOB and german pilots with spitfire on 6. Douglas Bader was very accurate at reporting such kills, and as a remark he was adding:"scared".

After being hit, again, altough the damage was not critical, many pilots bailed. They just didn't wanna risk their own end in a diving dewinged coffin... Or if they didn't bail, they rtbed for sure (speaking bout fighters here).

In this sim, if you damage enemy, he will fight on almost till the last.

73GIAP_Milan
11-22-2005, 05:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Set the AI to disengage once you get a bandit smoking. I hate it when I get a bandit smoking or take out his engine, effectively removing him from the fight.. then along comes the AI to pepper him some more.. in the meantime there are 5 or 6 other live fully functional bandits all around. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In other words, you want the AI to prioritize it's targets better?

I can agree to that.

LEXX_Luthor
11-22-2005, 06:21 AM
But it only works for the Dogfight planes.

Real life fighters were attracted to smoking bombers.

Maybe this will take a new generation of AI programming...hopefully for BoB And Beyond, but not if Oleg uses simplified AI Bubble. I am thinking AI Bubble will be the worst mistake Oleg is going to make. Instead of copying Rowan's AI Bubbbles, Oleg can get mass numbers of bombers to "fly" in formation if he scripts or radically simplifies the formation flight, until one bomber drops out than it becomes a more individual AI plane with more complicated behavoir to calculate.

alert_1
11-22-2005, 06:31 AM
I would be nice to have additional setting to AI: "agressiveness level", combination of this setting with "skill" level would render undoubtedly very interesting outcomes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LEXX_Luthor
11-22-2005, 07:00 AM
agressiveness level http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Hopefully for BoB And Beyond, but things better work out generally the same inside the player's AI Bubble as outside the Bubble.

ECV56_Rolf
11-22-2005, 08:34 AM
The AI behavior, is actually terrible.

I used to practice 2 vs 2, and the AI in 4.01, at least tried to clean my tail.
Now if I tell the AI to engage, it does, but against my own target, instead of finding the nearest offending bandit.

If told to cover, you will be hit from your 6 under carefull observation from the AI "covering" you.

Really, AI behavior is going nowhere. In general we try to not use AI on unsetted routes.

Tater-SW-
11-22-2005, 08:49 AM
What would it take to get the AI bombers and ground attack planes to make a single pass, then go right away to the next waypoint instead of strafing til they are all destroyed?

tater

LEBillfish
11-22-2005, 09:03 AM
I think AI is the best it's ever been.........they also seem to do as ordered so try recalling them to formation.

Love the new AI.......In fact, wherein before AI was the easy kill and live pilots the greatest threat..........AI now has exceeded most live players and they teamwork well together.....Very well............Love new AI.

Sturm_Williger
11-22-2005, 09:21 AM
Yep, I was "drag 'n bagged" by the AI recently.

Watching the track later, I was even more impressed how the one gained some alt while the other worked me back into range via his ( I thought ) terrified manoeuvers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Bartolomeo_ita
11-22-2005, 09:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Yeah I know... another variation on the "I hate the kill stealing while I get hammered AI.." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes -_-

LEXX_Luthor
11-22-2005, 02:24 PM
LEBillfish:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I think AI is the best it's ever been.........they also seem to do as ordered so try recalling them to formation.

Love the new AI.......In fact, wherein before AI was the easy kill and live pilots the greatest threat..........AI now has exceeded most live players and they teamwork well together.....Very well............Love new AI. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Fish you are so Right!! http://www.ubisoft.de/smileys/3.gif

The few flaws remaining are noticeable only because the AI is so much more impressive the last few Patches. I have been seeing AI fighters in a furball go steep vertical against each other and then losing all speed and having to flip nose down.

Weird AI test of extreme condition::

QMB 16 P.11C vs 16 Luft46 (4 each of -152, -162, -229, -262) and neither side could get real advantage but their behavior was so opposite. I was flying for the Polish side, and at NO TIME did the jets slow down to turn and the whole time they kept gaining altitude and dove on the low and slow P11s but they proved difficult targets for the fast jets. Mostly the German jets ran out of ammo... first the -152s and -162s but the -262s and -229s either had more ammo, or more likely, could not get good firing positions. Either way, no jet was lost but several P11s went down. This is a totally weird experiment, but by doing Extremes you can get insight into some AI behavior. Its very well done now. We somehow need to let Oleg know his AI programmer is on the ball. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Tater-SW-
11-22-2005, 02:32 PM
I agree the air to air is nice, but ground attack still has, um, issues.

tater

LEXX_Luthor
11-22-2005, 05:40 PM
Tater:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I agree the air to air is nice, but ground attack still has, um, issues. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
True. You caught me slipping into Dogfight mode there. Happens even to me, from time to time.

I'd like to see bomber ESCORT bomber formations get some altitude variations. Right now, setting bombers to escort bombers works well but can cause collisions because they all fly at the exact same altitude. A quick Fix for this and other AI collision problems is just disableing AI vs AI collisions, even make it an Option. Hey, it may help performance with large numbers of bombers.

LEXX_Luthor
11-22-2005, 10:18 PM
Interesting...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">....I search out the Fiats that he warned me about; they are flying along calmly. Suddenly they make a ninety degree turn. I realise their intention: <span class="ev_code_yellow">to go for the crippled Mosca and finish it off.</span> Pallarés leaves behind him a clear signpost for the vultures in his pursuit. I am blind with rage. As I get into an attacking position one of the Fiats fires and his rounds whizz past within a hair's breadth of the damaged Mosca. I fire at the enemy at almost point-blank range and I see the astonished faces of the pilots. They let go their prey. <span class="ev_code_yellow">One of them starts to belch smoke.</span> The other runs for it. <span class="ev_code_yellow">I go back for the damaged Fiat</span> and I don't stop firing until he explodes in mid-air.

under Year 1938 ~&gt; http://www.aire.org/gce/english/history/
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think smoking planes were the most attractive targets for fighter pilots, so we can't simply have AI ignore smoking planes that may still make it back to base -- however that is rare in the sim, most smoking single engine AI planes lose engine before returning to base.

p1ngu666
11-23-2005, 01:23 AM
most pilots irl wherent the calculating types us human players are (mostly)

that pilot who fired on crippled plane did it out of rage and anger, his bullets would have been better spent on another enemy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

the AI have issues with the ground, often when landing my wingmen will pile themselves into the ground.

there sometimes really good in df's. and sometimes dire.

but the ground attack ai is pretty ropey tbh

level bombers will do a shallow dive???
b25's will strafe the targets, even if flying high above, down they go http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Zaku_907
11-23-2005, 03:09 AM
Personally, I do not count a smoking fighter out of the fight, even one with a stopped prop. To me that fighter can crash-land and have it be salvaged. Even worse: the pilot can bail. I keep firing until major unrepairable damage occurs: wing off, plane torn in two, engine explosion, etc. If I see a pilot blow his canopy, I keep firing and hope to nail him, hate to see him come back up the skies and come back and get me (this is offline).

Bearcat99
11-23-2005, 06:04 PM
Dont get me wrong.... I agree with all of you.. or most of you.... and yeah K... this is the best AI so far... Perhaps what is needed is to change the point at which an AI pilot will bail.... from all the guncam footage I avce seen.. unless a pilot was severely wounded and wound up going down with his ship they bailed when the ship became FUBAR. Mybe that is all that is needed. I just hate to hit up 3 or four planes... and then see 4+ AI going after each one as he smokes away.... I also agree that for bombers it is an entirely different scenario.... Fighters were drawn to smoking bombers like moths to a flame.

chris455
11-23-2005, 07:08 PM
Speaking of the AI:
Last night, in a QMB I went into the merge with a Ki-43. H2H, usually not a smart thing to do- but I just bought a brand new video card and I'm feeling gooooooooooooooood.
So I skid into him and let him have it "on the sneak". His wing is now Swiss cheese, but still he comes after me. I just build up speed in my jug, yawn, and thinks to myself, "He can't really turn as good with a wing like that, can he?" So I go into a gentle curve towards him, deliberately losing speed, until he's almost on my tail. Then I pull that big P-47 into as tight a slice as she'll go.

And the little bastage loses control of his plane trying to follow me and flops into the drink!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Did it again today with a Ki-61 !!!!!!!!!
I love the new AI.

FltLt_HardBall
11-23-2005, 07:09 PM
An example of real-life kill stealing from my upcoming RNZAF campaign:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">No. 16 Sqn RNZAF claimed 4 enemy aircraft destroyed without any loss to themselves while providing cover for shipping during the landings on Vella Lavella. This was the first time that RNZAF aircraft shot down Aichi D3A 'Val' dive bombers. Having departed Segi and established a patrol over Vella Lavella at around 3,000 m the enemy were sighted approaching from the south-west.

FgOff Duncan spotted 8 or 9 Vals approaching from all different directions at around 1200 m and pulled in behind one group just as they were commencing their dive. He managed to put two bursts into the rear aircraft just as it was releasing its bombs, and it dived into the sea in flames. He then closed on the second Val and put a long burst into it, and it dived into the sea belching black smoke. Then he engaged the third Val. Having opened fire on it, it started to smoke, but he had to pull up sharply to avoid a collision when the Val appeared to lower its flaps. Climbing and turning to set himself up for a head-on attack, he observed his no.2 FltSgt Voss come in firing at the stern of the Val, which burst into flames and hit the water. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's no indication as to whether Duncan considered this 'kill stealing' or just good teamwork.