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View Full Version : POLL: Should all guns be desynched!?



JG52Karaya-X
02-10-2006, 06:34 AM

carguy_
02-10-2006, 06:39 AM
I think the request should be made clear by everyone`s opinions cuz desyncing suits us all.Talking about historically desynched guns only.

The only problem could be frames per second.Macchis are a very good example of smoke screen being created by tracers.

Extensive tracer smoke and new clouds can kill peoples` framerates.I barely hang there with all the new clouds myself.

JG52Karaya-X
02-10-2006, 06:45 AM
I dont think desynching the guns should make any difference to fps and how many tracers are shown - the belting of the guns isnt changed after all

The number of tracers on the .50CAL was changed to make them more visible as far as I know

jds1978
02-10-2006, 06:48 AM
if thats the way it was in RL, thats the way i want it in the sim.

now that the .50's are desynched watch all the previous nay-sayers start their own campaign to de-synch their AC guns. the irony is killing me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

JG52Karaya-X
02-10-2006, 06:49 AM
My point is that if it's corrected on one kind of guns asll others should be too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

tigertalon
02-10-2006, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
My point is that if it's corrected on one kind of guns asll others should be too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Guns firing through prop arc cannot be desynced, as they were triggered by an interrupting mechanism. Same goes for 151/20 (E) which were triggered electricaly.

SeaFireLIV
02-10-2006, 07:02 AM
This of course, illustrates how some are complaining for something they don`t understand and don`t need. It`s just a dumb placebo effect, even on the P51. What really helped the P51 was making them more visible from the cockpit, that made sense.

So I say, no more desyncing - noooooooo!

JG52Karaya-X
02-10-2006, 07:07 AM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
My point is that if it's corrected on one kind of guns asll others should be too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Guns firing through prop arc cannot be desynced, as they were triggered by an interrupting mechanism. Same goes for 151/20 (E) which were triggered electricaly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What about the MG151/20 and MG131 on the IAR81a and c and/or gondolas, on the Ki61-Hei, etc...

JG52Karaya-X
02-10-2006, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
It`s just a dumb placebo effect, even on the P51.

No it´s not - when they were synched you had big gaps between each burst. But hey, vote what you want http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

You call it whining - I call it realism. If it was that way IRL it should be here too

PS: Thanks for your kind words http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

carguy_
02-10-2006, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
I dont think desynching the guns should make any difference to fps and how many tracers are shown - the belting of the guns isnt changed after all

I`m talking about the smoke created by tracers in most guns.50cal,ShKas,UBB don`t have tracer smoke.

Check it yourself - select Macchi `43 and set 150m conv on both guns.Now fire with all of them,go into gunsight zoom mode and watch FPS drop.This effect really made me feel unsafe.I get full view on where bullets are going but FPS drop so fast that would result in a slideshow in missions with bigger amount of planes.

I know,I have an old Gf5600.You can make my game useless.Please remember that.

JG52Karaya-X
02-10-2006, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:
Check it yourself - select Macchi `43 and set 150m conv on both guns.Now fire with all of them,go into gunsight zoom mode and watch FPS drop.This effect really made me feel unsafe.I get full view on where bullets are going but FPS drop so fast that would result in a slideshow in missions with bigger amount of planes.

I know,I have an old Gf5600.You can make my game useless.Please remember that.

Yes, I understand - and when they are desynched you won't have 4 tracers fired all at the same time (which is prolly the problem with fps) but delayed relative to each other - again I don't see a problem there

AKA_TAGERT
02-10-2006, 08:30 AM
And they said de-sync was not going to help.. now everyone wants it! ROTFL! If they were not mech sync in RL, then they should be un-sync in game. Basically, any gun firing through the prop blades was synced to the motor cam/crank shaft.

Atzebrueck
02-10-2006, 09:11 AM
Guns firing through the prop blades can be unsynchronized as well.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know the synchronizing mechanism said the gun "when not" instead of "when to fire".
So the shots in between those gaps are influenced by ROF fluctuation, too.

p1ngu666
02-10-2006, 09:26 AM
for those that it should be desynced, then yes.

hispanos on mossie, beu and presumeably spit vc, should be unsynced
i think the vb and ix viii ones are slightly unsynced, the il2 guns are slighty unsynced too.

be nice if pairs of guns had the belting starting in different place, eg gun1 fires api, gun2 fires he at the same time.

unsyncing should help with the fps issue...

oh and it needs tobe looked at on a per plane basis

p1ngu666
02-10-2006, 09:30 AM
oh and spitvc should have 2 triggers for the cannons...

JG52Karaya-X
02-10-2006, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
oh and it needs tobe looked at on a per plane basis

I'm starting a list with all flyables in IL2 with their guns and wether or not they were synched. But I will need some help here from the community.

For example: Were the MG17s on the Bf109E4-G2 synched or not? Were the MG131s (which were electrically triggered) on the Bf109G6-K4 synched? Were the MGFF/Ms on the Bf109E4-E7Z synched? Were the MG151/20s on the FWs synched?

Gimme gimme gimme... not only German planes but British, American, Russian, etc...

jds1978
02-10-2006, 09:41 AM
My point is that if it's corrected on one kind of guns asll others should be too


that wasn't directed at you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

why people are against adding more realism to the sim is beyond me.

once more, if the tracers fired in a desynched pattern in RL than it ought to be implemented in the sim

Kocur_
02-10-2006, 09:42 AM
All guns indeed should not fire in salvos! No way it would harm fps - since even un-synched Hurricane IIb, i.e. 12 x ~18 rounds per second didnt.

Cowling guns firing through prop disc shouldnt fire in salvos either, as their firing was interruped a while before-during-and while after prop blade passed before muzzle. But that makes little difference IMHO if they would remain synched not only with prop but with eachother too - I find it acceptable simplification.


Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
My point is that if it's corrected on one kind of guns asll others should be too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Guns firing through prop arc cannot be desynced, as they were triggered by an interrupting mechanism. Same goes for 151/20 (E) which were triggered electricaly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What about the MG151/20 and MG131 on the IAR81a and c and/or gondolas, on the Ki61-Hei, etc... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Electric primer ammo was introduced in MG-151/20E specifically for precise prop-synchronisation - interrupter would shut off electric circuit, which provided voltage to electric primers.
For a while both versions of ammo and guns were produced MG151/20E with electric primers ammo and MG151/20 with classic percussion primers ammo. AFAIK the latter was dropped soon, and 'electric' version was produced only, so today 'E' is omitted and everyone writes MG-151/20, although having in mind prop-synched synched one.

Now in case of wing mounted MG151/20 my educated guess is that electric system, which set primers off was simply without interruptor, and it was permanently 'ON'. So guns fired at their individual rates of fire - as soon as bolt reached battery position primer was ignited, just like in any regular mechanically fired gun. That would mean that MG151/20 in Ki61, MC205,outer pair in Fw190 and all pod mounted ones should be "un-synched" too.

anarchy52
02-10-2006, 09:59 AM
No unsynching!
.50 won teh war

OldMan____
02-10-2006, 10:06 AM
I don want desync.. desync is for nooob red pilots that need to shot more than one round from each gun. FW pilots calculate precise deflection and burst separation on own mind and manage to hit with all guns in first round of burst...

BTw, you can also remove the automaic firing of all guns. We don't need repeating guns to hit anything (well some Lagg need more bullets.. but that is completely different).

Kocur_
02-10-2006, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by jds1978:
once more, if the tracers fired in a desynched pattern in RL than it ought to be implemented in the sim

Thats one more issue. Imagine T-AP-API-HE belt sequence. Assuming - unhistorically - that all four guns fired at exactly the same ROF all would spit out tracers in salvos, as been seen in 4.02.
But if only belts put in each of those guns did not start with the same round, say:

gun1 <span class="ev_code_RED">T</span>-AP-API-HE-<span class="ev_code_RED">T</span>-AP-API-HE-<span class="ev_code_RED">T</span>-AP-API-HE
gun2 AP-API-HE-<span class="ev_code_RED">T</span>-AP-API-HE-<span class="ev_code_RED">T</span>-AP-API-HE-<span class="ev_code_RED">T</span>
gun3 API-HE-<span class="ev_code_RED">T</span>-AP-API-HE-<span class="ev_code_RED">T</span>-AP-API-HE-<span class="ev_code_RED">T</span>-AP
gun4 HE-<span class="ev_code_RED">T</span>-AP-API-HE-<span class="ev_code_RED">T</span>-AP-API-HE-<span class="ev_code_RED">T</span>-AP-API

tracers would be 'un-synched' despite 'synched' ROFs!

Viper2005_
02-10-2006, 10:43 AM
I think that all guns which were desynched historically should be desynched in the game. Guns that were synchronised historically should be synchronised in the game.

I particularly feel that the Tempest is crying out for desynchronisation...

Jetbuff
02-10-2006, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
This of course, illustrates how some are complaining for something they don`t understand and don`t need. It`s just a dumb placebo effect, even on the P51. What really helped the P51 was making them more visible from the cockpit, that made sense.
I agree... on the placebo effect. My accuracy is about the same as before the patch in the P-51. I never was against desyncing for historical accuracy's sake, just concerned that people thought it would be the magic bullet that made them instant aces. I give it 'two weeks' before the effect wears off and they find something else to complain about.

carguy_
02-10-2006, 12:27 PM
Pffft no wonder,P51 and P47 still can`t hit chit cuz THERE IS NO SPREAD.50cal is laser accurate,every bullet goes EXACTLY the same route.50cal is maybe one of the most demanding guns on those planes.Comparable to using P39/P63 main cannon.Except that if you hit with this one the plane cuts in half,50cal just shreds it with few bullets,the whole rest hits air milimeters away from target.



The most pathetic that is that whiners with Gibbage ahead pressed Oleg to do this http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

TooCooL34
02-10-2006, 12:31 PM
Wow, some people never get tired.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Hetzer_II
02-10-2006, 12:52 PM
The most pathetic that is that whiners with Gibbage ahead pressed Oleg to do this


Funny thing is that Oleg told them what will happen if he change.. and after he changed the whineing get worse and worse.. some people only deserve what they want..

Kocur_
02-10-2006, 12:59 PM
And my shooting from P-51 is improved - I will defend that 'placebo effect' to the last breath of my Mustang http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Not to mention synching those guns was grotesque!

Jaws2002
02-10-2006, 01:19 PM
Do what ever you want, I just don't want to cut my prop when I open fire. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WWMaxGunz
02-11-2006, 04:20 AM
Originally posted by Hetzer_II:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The most pathetic that is that whiners with Gibbage ahead pressed Oleg to do this


Funny thing is that Oleg told them what will happen if he change.. and after he changed the whineing get worse and worse.. some people only deserve what they want.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whining got worse and worse... from LW fans. And still don't end.

I don't see threads demanding 109 fire more dispersed. Or FW's.

Diehard LW fans: Oh please bring the under 200m .50's back! Whaaaaa!

JG52Uther
02-11-2006, 04:29 AM
If its realistic to each aircraft,then yes.But how much time would this take Oleg to do?

carguy_
02-11-2006, 04:54 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Whining got worse and worse... from LW fans. And still don't end.

I don't see threads demanding 109 fire more dispersed. Or FW's.

Diehard LW fans: Oh please bring the under 200m .50's back! Whaaaaa!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

jds1978
02-11-2006, 06:48 AM
Thats one more issue. Imagine T-AP-API-HE belt sequence. Assuming - unhistorically - that all four guns fired at exactly the same ROF all would spit out tracers in salvos, as been seen in 4.02.
But if only belts put in each of those guns did not start with the same round, say:

gun1 T-AP-API-HE-T-AP-API-HE-T-AP-API-HE
gun2 AP-API-HE-T-AP-API-HE-T-AP-API-HE-T
gun3 API-HE-T-AP-API-HE-T-AP-API-HE-T-AP
gun4 HE-T-AP-API-HE-T-AP-API-HE-T-AP-API

tracers would be 'un-synched' despite 'synched' ROFs!

YES! maybe in BoB!