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CandleInTheDark
03-15-2018, 07:39 PM
The blog post they talked about is up, in it they have the 1v1 (top 2.5% players) and 4v4 (top 4% players) win matrix and some of what they intend to do about balance.

Posted it in the Den recap but figured it deserved its own thread also. https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-gb/news-community/detail.aspx?c=tcm:154-320343-16&ct=tcm:154-76770-32

Devils-_-legacy
03-15-2018, 07:50 PM
(Lawbringer’s main strength are his set of bomb Feats and his Impale move. We are looking at Impale and the different situations where it can be guaranteed. This move when successfully executed often lead to a player kill in a 1vN situation.)At least they are acknowledging this is lol

Vakris_One
03-15-2018, 08:29 PM
That's awesome to finally get a concrete glimpse of the dev's thinking and methodologies driving their decisions. The 1v1 and 4v4 charts are finally an official representation of what's going on with the heroes at top tier play. No more arguments about people's subjective tier lists, hooray! For now we have the only data that matters.

This is some fascinating info and I can't wait to see how the Season 5 data changes the charts. My initial speculation would be that in 1v1s Highlander and Kensei shoot up a bit, Conq and Zerker might go straight into the top 5, Peacekeeper might just stay in first place and Aramusha will drop to the very bottom. 4v4s I am expecting Conq to break into the top 5 and Zerker to shoot straight up into 3rd place. I don't think anyone will be de-throning the Bombringer and Raider as the top 2.

bob333e
03-15-2018, 08:44 PM
The blog post they talked about is up, in it they have the 1v1 (top 2.5% players) and 4v4 (top 4% players) win matrix and some of what they intend to do about balance.

Posted it in the Den recap but figured it deserved its own thread also. https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-gb/news-community/detail.aspx?c=tcm:154-320343-16&ct=tcm:154-76770-32

I'm still too heated up to read through that after writing a long journal in another thread just earlier. Thanks for posting it, saved it for later.

Edit: just checked it out. It does seem a better viable source of individual hero measurement in 1v1s and 4v4s without too much bias and mostly based on data.

I'm glad they're starting to tackle this new transparency in communication.

Tyrjo
03-15-2018, 09:05 PM
Most interesting official post in a while. The buffed classes are going to shoot up by quite a bit after season 5.

I'm actually very surprised to see Gladiator so low in Duel. On console he can be quite a plague.

Shugoki is also a lot higher than expected. We'll see how all this ends up after the parry changes. Shugoki is probably up there because of his parry and wall splat punish.

E1seNw0Lf
03-15-2018, 09:22 PM
Most interesting/informing news (DATA) since month!!! Oh boy, it was time... :D

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.PYMMQN2kW-zIwC0XxbJewQHaEH&w=300&h=166&c=7&o=5&pid=1.7

Thx to devs!

Knight_Raime
03-15-2018, 10:23 PM
This is very encouraging. It brings a little tear to my eye knowing they're going to continue to have this kind of discussion with us at the end of each season.
I'm glad that they remain cautious and don't knee jerk nerf top performing classes. I know this thread is about this specifically but to avoid double posting i'll just say it here instead of the den post (thanks for the recap as usual candle)

It brings me extreme joy to know They have a multi year plan game with this. That all but confirms there won't be a sequal and it's going the siege route.
Even though a new game with the direction a lot of people seem to want would be the easiest way to go I don't think it would take off just because of how contraversial for honor still is for many players. So sticking to this game for better or worse and continuing to try and make it better is the smart choice.

This was all very nice to read waking up.

Sauronbaine
03-15-2018, 10:25 PM
I always knew PK was the top tier duelist, but I was srurpsied she was better than the Shaman.


OH THIS IS SEASON 4.... ok so now I wanna see how the classes are doing in about two months without any changes to their kits.


I wanna see how the Conq handles, Kensei and the others.

Knight_Raime
03-15-2018, 10:41 PM
I always knew PK was the top tier duelist, but I was srurpsied she was better than the Shaman.


OH THIS IS SEASON 4.... ok so now I wanna see how the classes are doing in about two months without any changes to their kits.


I wanna see how the Conq handles, Kensei and the others.

Because pk has stronger punishes and an amazing option select. Shaman's mix ups are shut out easily.
pk doesn't have mix ups really but her 2 lights hit hard and are pretty much guaranteed against most people.
Her design just means she's got no bad matchups. Where as shaman has a few unfavorable ones.

Tyrfing_.
03-15-2018, 11:04 PM
Very good blog, and gratz to the team for the good communication.

Hope this will put some end to the countless tier-list threats and the "plese nerf heros xy because I suck against them" threats.

ViolentRebirth
03-15-2018, 11:32 PM
I don't get it. His shove although annoying leads to nothing as you can roll away from everything the shove can be followed up by. Light? Rolled away from. Guardbreak? Rolled away from. Heavy? Rolled away from. His shove in competitive is only good to drain stamina and try to read the opponent. Are they jumpy, do they wait to see what their opponent's next move is? Did I forget to mention that assassins can deflect into the light making it actually counterproductive to attack them in high levels of play as the damage they'd net in far exceeds the 15 damage you M I G H T get from landing a light? Even if they were to roll away and be out of stamina, it doesn't matter as Lawbringer's options of getting in damage is fundamentally flawed. What is he to do? Throw a 500ms light with its awkward animation, making it feel slower than it should be? It'd get blocked. Heavy? Same deal. Long arm? lol. Shove from neutral? Too slow to adequately catch someone and force a 50/50. Continued, you can't feint the shove so even if you got them to dodge preemptively, you can't capitalize on anything unlike with Warden's shoulderbash which is much faster and feintable. Impaling charge? Once you unlock from guard mode, everyone is going to block from the left so it's a useless move when they're out of stamina. Judge Jury Executioner? They can block each attack and patiently wait out to see if the unblockable is going to fly and even then, they can just dash backwards and evade it. His dodge recoveries are bad with the exception of dodging forward. There are numerous times where I'd go to side dash and shove as a counterattack and because of the dodge recovery delay, get guardbroken just as the orange indicator of the unblockable was showing.

How... How is he a top tier duelist? This makes zero sense. Continued, how is this accurate if we're using the top 2.5% of players? What? Am I seeing things? His parry punishes? The only thing he has is his parries but with the increasing number of soft feints in the game and Lawbringer's atrocious window to feint out of a heavy, you get interrupted most times that you try. Not only that, his damage is average at best compared to other heroes. 30 damage on heavies, 15 on lights and his biggest damage comes from parrying a light which only nets 45 damage. That's normal top raider heavy and its less than when he uses his zone attack in a chain as it does 50 damage. It's less than when shaman gets her bite, another 50 damage plus however many ticks of bleed damage was consumed before the bite. It's less than peacekeepers heavy into bleed. What the hell am I not seeing? How is he a top tier duelist character???? I play a lot of Lawbringer, he's been my main since launch, over a year ago and I've gotten him to rep 38(I play almost exclusively duels if I played more 4v4 matches, he'd be rep 50 over a week ago) but I don't play him because he's "good" because I fail to see how he could ever be thought of as "good". He's an amazing noobstomper but against competent players it's essentially a game of "parry or I lose". I play him because he has the best aesthetics out of anyone in the cast(in my opinion).

TL;DR How is Lawbringer a top 3 duelist? He's slow, has no openers worth mentioning, no hyper armor on chains, allowing him to get interrupted all the time, has poor dodge recoveries, lukewarm damage and is a gimmick character whose incredibly sink or swim. You are either a god or a grunt.

Oupyz
03-15-2018, 11:50 PM
I don't get it. His shove although annoying leads to nothing as you can roll away from everything the shove can be followed up by. Light? Rolled away from. Guardbreak? Rolled away from. Heavy? Rolled away from. His shove in competitive is only good to drain stamina and try to read the opponent. Are they jumpy, do they wait to see what their opponent's next move is? Did I forget to mention that assassins can deflect into the light making it actually counterproductive to attack them in high levels of play as the damage they'd net in far exceeds the 15 damage you M I G H T get from landing a light? Even if they were to roll away and be out of stamina, it doesn't matter as Lawbringer's options of getting in damage is fundamentally flawed. What is he to do? Throw a 500ms light with its awkward animation, making it feel slower than it should be? It'd get blocked. Heavy? Same deal. Long arm? lol. Shove from neutral? Too slow to adequately catch someone and force a 50/50. Continued, you can't feint the shove so even if you got them to dodge preemptively, you can't capitalize on anything unlike with Warden's shoulderbash which is much faster and feintable. Impaling charge? Once you unlock from guard mode, everyone is going to block from the left so it's a useless move when they're out of stamina. Judge Jury Executioner? They can block each attack and patiently wait out to see if the unblockable is going to fly and even then, they can just dash backwards and evade it. His dodge recoveries are bad with the exception of dodging forward. There are numerous times where I'd go to side dash and shove as a counterattack and because of the dodge recovery delay, get guardbroken just as the orange indicator of the unblockable was showing.

How... How is he a top tier duelist? This makes zero sense. Continued, how is this accurate if we're using the top 2.5% of players? What? Am I seeing things? His parry punishes? The only thing he has is his parries but with the increasing number of soft feints in the game and Lawbringer's atrocious window to feint out of a heavy, you get interrupted most times that you try. Not only that, his damage is average at best compared to other heroes. 30 damage on heavies, 15 on lights and his biggest damage comes from parrying a light which only nets 45 damage. That's normal top raider heavy and its less than when he uses his zone attack in a chain as it does 50 damage. It's less than when shaman gets her bite, another 50 damage plus however many ticks of bleed damage was consumed before the bite. It's less than peacekeepers heavy into bleed. What the hell am I not seeing? How is he a top tier duelist character???? I play a lot of Lawbringer, he's been my main since launch, over a year ago and I've gotten him to rep 38(I play almost exclusively duels if I played more 4v4 matches, he'd be rep 50 over a week ago) but I don't play him because he's "good" because I fail to see how he could ever be thought of as "good". He's an amazing noobstomper but against competent players it's essentially a game of "parry or I lose". I play him because he has the best aesthetics out of anyone in the cast(in my opinion).

TL;DR How is Lawbringer a top 3 duelist? He's slow, has no openers worth mentioning, no hyper armor on chains, allowing him to get interrupted all the time, has poor dodge recoveries, lukewarm damage and is a gimmick character whose incredibly sink or swim. You are either a god or a grunt.

very easy u shove block everything , king of turtle he is

ViolentRebirth
03-15-2018, 11:54 PM
You speak as though shove does damage. It doesn't matter if you shove them till the end of time if you nothing out of it against players who understand its fundamental flaws. It. Is. A. Useless. Ability.

Sauronbaine
03-15-2018, 11:55 PM
Because pk has stronger punishes and an amazing option select. Shaman's mix ups are shut out easily.
pk doesn't have mix ups really but her 2 lights hit hard and are pretty much guaranteed against most people.
Her design just means she's got no bad matchups. Where as shaman has a few unfavorable ones.


I always knew PK and Shaman were top tier, I was just surprised at who was number 1 and 2. I thought it was flipped but it doesn't really matter. Both classes are just cancer.

Oupyz
03-15-2018, 11:58 PM
shove block is anything but useless and it's been abused to death

and i always knew lawbringer is top tier but no one likes to believe , don't really attack shove block until he's dead not really that hard is it :/

ViolentRebirth
03-16-2018, 12:06 AM
shove block is anything but useless and it's been abused to death

and i always knew lawbringer is top tier but no one likes to believe , don't really attack shove block until he's dead not really that hard is it :/

My dude... you didn't address a single issue I listed though. The only response your giving is "block shove" and I keep telling you that it's USELESS because they roll AWAY from ANYTHING you do after you shove them. I'm starting to feel like this conversation is going in circles with you.

Oupyz
03-16-2018, 12:10 AM
well no need to read , law dudes were asking for a buff for a long time , that got me really boring reading complain about law , here are the stats he's top 3 in duel and top 1 in 4v4 , u could ask for shifting the power from block shove into something else .

but as you can see if shove block is that useless you wont be seeing him top 3 in 1v1 and top 1 in 4v4 would we my dude ? :)

Sauronbaine
03-16-2018, 12:12 AM
I think its more of the parry punishes that law has.

The powerful heavy off a light and the impale/stun.

Charmzzz
03-16-2018, 09:06 AM
Finally they present us THE DATA, then a LB main comes in (checked his FHTracker Profile, he is one) saying "this is false, LB is trash". Hahaha, made my day.

I think it is really interesting to see how the Characters perform in the highest level, I can only confirm this "tier list". Always said that LB and Raider are top tier in Dom, so many people told me I was wrong... PK being No 1 in Duel, I think her winrates on Console are higher than on PC and the matrix shows combined winrates. Still, too high as everybody can see.

I'm a PK Main and I agree to a Zone nerf. Reduce the speed of Zone to 500ms, don't alter the damage. But give PK the options in chains (back): every heavy in chains should be soft-feintable into GB or dagger cancel as it was before timesnap removal. Dagger cancel should be slowed down to 500ms but being an unblockable, dealing 15 bleed damage.

Knight_Raime
03-16-2018, 12:59 PM
Finally they present us THE DATA, then a LB main comes in (checked his FHTracker Profile, he is one) saying "this is false, LB is trash". Hahaha, made my day.

I think it is really interesting to see how the Characters perform in the highest level, I can only confirm this "tier list". Always said that LB and Raider are top tier in Dom, so many people told me I was wrong... PK being No 1 in Duel, I think her winrates on Console are higher than on PC and the matrix shows combined winrates. Still, too high as everybody can see.

I'm a PK Main and I agree to a Zone nerf. Reduce the speed of Zone to 500ms, don't alter the damage. But give PK the options in chains (back): every heavy in chains should be soft-feintable into GB or dagger cancel as it was before timesnap removal. Dagger cancel should be slowed down to 500ms but being an unblockable, dealing 15 bleed damage.

You've got people telling you LB isn't top tier in 4v4? what....WHAT.
I agree on that zone nerf and the chain soft feints as well.
Not sure about that unblockable though.
I'd rather they just normalize all of her bleed so it all stacks with eachother. as it currently does.

Knight_Raime
03-16-2018, 01:01 PM
I always knew PK and Shaman were top tier, I was just surprised at who was number 1 and 2. I thought it was flipped but it doesn't really matter. Both classes are just cancer.

Nah m8. Shaman is A tier in duels. Her bite is harder to get access to.
it's pretty easy to shut out her unblockable mix up.
Bleed is hard to confirm.
and raw pounces/wildcats rages are pretty easy to defend against.

She's an absolute monster to people with poor reaction or easily get overhwhelmed. But a cautious and calm opponent picks her appart really easily.

CandleInTheDark
03-16-2018, 01:41 PM
Nah m8. Shaman is A tier in duels. Her bite is harder to get access to.
it's pretty easy to shut out her unblockable mix up.
Bleed is hard to confirm.
and raw pounces/wildcats rages are pretty easy to defend against.

She's an absolute monster to people with poor reaction or easily get overhwhelmed. But a cautious and calm opponent picks her appart really easily.

I recall taking my zero rep (pre rework) kensei into duels and it was so easy just to use the dodge sweeps and 100-0 her without taking a hit, causing a rage quit. Yes Shaman is good, but people need to have a base level of skill in the game mechanics to use her.

Knight_Raime
03-16-2018, 02:01 PM
I recall taking my zero rep (pre rework) kensei into duels and it was so easy just to use the dodge sweeps and 100-0 her without taking a hit, causing a rage quit. Yes Shaman is good, but people need to have a base level of skill in the game mechanics to use her.

Yeah you need to be pretty good at the game to get anything decent from her. But people are going to continue to think she's a god because "muh mix ups."
even though kensei's mix ups are also almost as bad as hers.

Sorry. Don't mean to sound dismissive. Been having frustrating arguments about centurion being perfectly fine (he is) at the moment but so many people are calling him trash because his mix ups don't net anything easily. even though lights and heavies from him are basically safe and his kick/delayed kick works often enough for pressure on occasion.

PDXGorechild
03-16-2018, 03:13 PM
Finally, some insight! Excellent post by the fight team. So pleased to have some solid data on balance.


TL;DR How is Lawbringer a top 3 duelist? He's slow, has no openers worth mentioning, no hyper armor on chains, allowing him to get interrupted all the time, has poor dodge recoveries, lukewarm damage and is a gimmick character whose incredibly sink or swim. You are either a god or a grunt.

The data is before your very eyes. Evidently it's upset you, but you can't deny facts.. What more do you want? He was obviously top tier in 4v4 and probably still is. His ability to win in duels stems from, as the notes from the fight team say, turtling to the max and winning by attrition. He's undeniably good at this. I'm not saying he's fun to play as or against, actually rather frustrating in most situations. Doesn't surprise me at all that my main has a 38% win rate against him.

Most of the list doesn't surprise me. Valkyrie seems to perform better than i'd have predicted, and Warden not quite as well. Orochi is way lower than I thought, guess i'll have to eat my hat on some of the comments I've made in his defence.

And Gladiator, wtf!? Never had trouble against him personally, but I’d have thought he’d be in the top 5 at least based on how he seems to perform against most classes. Perhaps the fluidity and viability of his kit makes him seem stronger than he is compared to some others. In truth he’s one of the best designed classes imo, backed up by this data.

Poor Highlander. I knew his situation wasn’t good pre-buff but it’s actually quite staggering to see his numbers. The gap between him and the second lowest is considerable. I feel they went the right way about buffing him though, he has a good kit, just needed to be the heavy hitter he was supposed to be. Will be interesting to see how he progresses.

Interesting points –

Conqueror 25% win rate against PK. Ouch. He did enjoy a 74% win rate against Highlander though.

Warden vs Shaman, didn’t think it was that hard for him.

Berserker was a bit higher than I expected him to be in 1v1. I predict his rates in 4v4 will go up considerably and his 1v1 viability won't change much at higher level play. That's from my own experience.

Thanks for Candle for bringing this to the forum.

EvoX.
03-16-2018, 04:05 PM
Good to see them taking feedback from top players. Imagine what the game would be like if they listened to every newbie that complains Warden and Valkyrie need a nerf.

CandleInTheDark
03-16-2018, 05:54 PM
Good to see them taking feedback from top players. Imagine what the game would be like if they listened to every newbie that complains Warden and Valkyrie need a nerf.

Obviously it isn't just data, but they said a while ago, top 2% or so is their balance data, anything lower is how fun is the character to use.

bob333e
03-16-2018, 06:05 PM
Obviously it isn't just data, but they said a while ago, top 2% or so is their balance data, anything lower is how fun is the character to use.

Honestly it's better that way. With how this forum gets drowned with complaints and rants and random crynerfs (and I don't even want to imagine how it is like on Reddit), I'm happy they don't take the data from the average casual crynerfer.

I wonder, do they find people who are mains at every hero? or do those top 2% use all heroes and have no singular mains? for example, a guy in the top 2% might be god-tier with PK but he's normal with LB, and a random unknown user who's been a LB main since launch can provide much better data than the guy sitting in the top 2%, concerning LB. I don't know how they pull out this data based on combat feedback, but this is still much better than taking in the complaints from the masses. It paints a clearer picture.

I had a knack Warden is mid-level nearly everywhere. It feels just about right. He's mid-level in almost everything. The thing about Warden is, you've got to know your opponent if you want to counter them. Warden is a counter-attacker, and is punished twice as much if he makes mistakes. Still, can't help but absolutely love this hero. Been my main since I started the game, and not planning to switch mains anytime soon.

Arekonator
03-16-2018, 06:42 PM
I am really surprised.
If lawbringer is top tier duelist, how come i have never seen LB win any competetive 1v1 tournament (i am not saying there werent any, just that i never seen one). Genuinely curious how to explain disparity between competetive tierlists and this.
My personal take is that people in public matches simply cant be arsed to roll away after every block and he just bores them to death so they play along with the shove mixup game. People just dont bother to play vs him "properly" because how god damn boring it is.
Also, 37% WR vs pre-rework conqueror ( which was widely considered to be trash) showcases his issues: if he cant punish enemy attacks, he is screwed because he lacks any option to initiate offense on his own.
Regarding 4v4, i always knew he is up there.

Disclaimer: Yes i am LB main. Yes, i am questioning the data because it doesnt align with my personal experience. Is there something that the data doesnt take into account? If anyone can make sense out of this, i am very curious.

CandleInTheDark
03-16-2018, 06:50 PM
I am really surprised.
If lawbringer is top tier duelist, how come i have never seen LB win any competetive 1v1 tournament (i am not saying there werent any, just that i never seen one). Genuinely curious how to explain disparity between competetive tierlists and this.
My personal take is that people in public matches simply cant be arsed to roll away after every block and he just bores them to death so they play along with the shove mixup game. People just dont bother to play vs him "properly" because how god damn boring it is.
Also, 37% WR vs pre-rework conqueror ( which was widely considered to be trash) showcases his issues: if he cant punish enemy attacks, he is screwed because he lacks any option to initiate offense on his own.
Regarding 4v4, i always knew he is up there.

Disclaimer: Yes i am LB main. Yes, i am questioning the data because it doesnt align with my personal experience. Is there something that the data doesnt take into account? If anyone can make sense out of this, i am very curious.

Bearing in mind that this is the top 2% in duel, I can't say I am surprised. Remember that the defensive meta was very much a thing and consider what the devs said in the blog post, that shove on block and his hp pool means he can grind out matches which as we saw in 1v1 live stream tournaments is the general thing at that level, then consider his parry rewards.

Now Lawbringer is supposed to be a turtle, he is a counter attacker, even the assassin counter attackers do better by turtling (outside peacekeeper) so in that skill bracket he is a very solid choice and will continue to be.

Bear in mind also that the devs outright said they don't think he is too strong and that while they are looking at shove on block, their preferred method currently outside of a few things they directly stated is buffs for lower performing classes.

MumfordDaHound
03-17-2018, 12:56 PM
Well these stats let me know why when I play orochi things seem harder then when I play my LB. Also, explains why when playing as orochi vs Amarusha I've had issues, almost 70% win rate for amu. Although lately it seems to have become better.
Nice to see stats like this and kinda puts to rest which characters are fine and which need help. Pk obviously needs some toning down, but maybe the parry change stuff will do some adjusting to the list.

E1seNw0Lf
03-19-2018, 03:48 AM
https://ubistatic19-a.akamaihd.net/resource/en-us/game/forhonor/fh-game/fh_duel_winloss_matrix_870x489v3_320341.jpg

Centurion + Lawbringer sum up to 118% (63+55). :confused:
Looks like a few values are rounded, but 18% is a bit too much ubi. :)

If that was an attention-test, what do I get for passing? :)
(If I could choose... then this (https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1839741-Orochi-Emote-quot-Open-For-Business-quot-still-wrong-audio))

HazelrahFirefly
03-20-2018, 02:29 AM
So, can all of us Ara-haters get an apology now? ****ing 7th, and that was during season 4 before his buff. You all claimed he was bottom tier just because they said so on the Warrior's Den, but I knew that was b.s.

7th!

Devils-_-legacy
03-20-2018, 02:47 AM
I bet you he drops a further 3 places lol after the current reworks

E1seNw0Lf
03-20-2018, 04:54 AM
So, can all of us Ara-haters get an apology now? ****ing 7th, and that was during season 4 before his buff. You all claimed he was bottom tier just because they said so on the Warrior's Den, but I knew that was b.s.

7th!
A closer look to those DATA showing that he is specifically weak against characters that are known for being a turtle.
That means, learn to block him and you are fine. Complaints about Ara are just nonesense.

HazelrahFirefly
03-20-2018, 11:41 AM
A closer look to those DATA showing that he is specifically weak against characters that are known for being a turtle.
That means, learn to block him and you are fine. Complaints about Ara are just nonesense.

Thankfully I never have to accept this softballed argument again. Reality: learn to block any character and they will seem weak.

There's numerical proof, 7th place pre-buff among the top 2% of Duelists. Ara is a significant threat. I knew all of you werw wrong, and Ubisoft themselves have given the data to show that we are right.

Knight_Raime
03-20-2018, 03:36 PM
Thankfully I never have to accept this softballed argument again. Reality: learn to block any character and they will seem weak.

There's numerical proof, 7th place pre-buff among the top 2% of Duelists. Ara is a significant threat. I knew all of you werw wrong, and Ubisoft themselves have given the data to show that we are right.

Sorry but the list doesn't prove or disprove a heros viability or opness. Or even UPness. Win percent as a stat alone is not giving enough info.
Ara still has no options to open up people who turtle. Let me put it to you this way. If we unanimously took the worst hero in the game and saw he was doing alright win percentage wise up top all that proves is the players skill. Not the heros kit being useful. This list also doesn't take into account hero usage/popularity.

And another thing for you to consider. Lawbringer is third. According to your logic this means that he's "op" or at least really good.
But. In fact. The devs acknowledged that it's mainly because of his shove on block mechanic giving basically a free light.
(there is also his parry punish where he impales from a parry counter and runs you into a wall for some sizable damage combo.)

You can stop the high and mighty attitude.

HazelrahFirefly
03-20-2018, 04:19 PM
No, I won't.

The LB clearly is good, and most would agree. You can claim a kit isnt viable, but then.. Ya know... 7th of the top 2% of players, so that statement doesn't matter.

Players skill? So other classes don't take into account a player's skill? Of course they do, its all based on skill. Any hero can kill any hero, so that means the Ara is 7th best.

I know that some of you elitists on here have no problem with the Ara, and thats great for you. I honestly am jealous because he's still my number one threat, but the data is right there. Stop ignoring it.

Dry.Fish
03-20-2018, 04:36 PM
My question is. How many players are in the top 2.5% and what are these top players skill compared to other players in this group?

CandleInTheDark
03-20-2018, 05:00 PM
No, I won't.

The LB clearly is good, and most would agree. You can claim a kit isnt viable, but then.. Ya know... 7th of the top 2% of players, so that statement doesn't matter.

Players skill? So other classes don't take into account a player's skill? Of course they do, its all based on skill. Any hero can kill any hero, so that means the Ara is 7th best.

I know that some of you elitists on here have no problem with the Ara, and thats great for you. I honestly am jealous because he's still my number one threat, but the data is right there. Stop ignoring it.

I am not sure where being 7th out of 18 makes a character overpowered. 7 is 38% of 18, this means a whole third of the heroes are better than him, if all three of the reworked heroes rise above him (and I think at least two will, but could well be all three) then that will be more than half of the cast.

Then consider this, his overall percentage is 51%, that means that for the most part for every battle he wins, he loses one, again that doesn't scream op and neither does the fact that 3% is the gap between him and 16th.

Then we can look at dominion, top five, but the next two are only 0.7% behind and 2.1% covers the five below him.

In truth you are making a lot out of a position in a vacuum without taking into account even the things we can see, let alone the things we can't.

HazelrahFirefly
03-20-2018, 05:36 PM
I am not sure where being 7th out of 18 makes a character overpowered. 7 is 38% of 18, this means a whole third of the heroes are better than him, if all three of the reworked heroes rise above him (and I think at least two will, but could well be all three) then that will be more than half of the cast.

Then consider this, his overall percentage is 51%, that means that for the most part for every battle he wins, he loses one, again that doesn't scream op and neither does the fact that 3% is the gap between him and 16th.

Then we can look at dominion, top five, but the next two are only 0.7% behind and 2.1% covers the five below him.

In truth you are making a lot out of a position in a vacuum without taking into account even the things we can see, let alone the things we can't.

Ah, but being OP wasnt my point. For three months everyone on a high horse here said he is bottom tier, perhaps even the worst in Duels.

He's clearly not. In fact, he's 7th. Dont. Other bringing up the total percentage when the ohhhh-spooky-dreaded PK is only barely higher, essentially also losing half her fights.

CandleInTheDark
03-20-2018, 05:56 PM
Ah, but being OP wasnt my point. For three months everyone on a high horse here said he is bottom tier, perhaps even the worst in Duels.

He's clearly not. In fact, he's 7th. Dont. Other bringing up the total percentage when the ohhhh-spooky-dreaded PK is only barely higher, essentially also losing half her fights.

Peacekeeper really isn't helping your case as much as you think it is. Let's again look at the actual numbers we are given, Peacekeeper has only three characters that she has less than a 50% win rate against and only one that falls outside of the 45-55% range in the Lawbringer. Aramusha, meanwhile, has nine characters that he performs at less than a 50/50 rate against and quite a few of those by quite a fair way, Lawbringer 41% Warlord 39% Warden 43%. Aramusha has two win rates past 60%, Peacekeeper has seven above 60% and two of those are above 70%

And while you cling to 7th, also consider that two are on the same percentage as him, they had to order it in some way and there would be a very real argument for placing him 9th because the two he shares a percentage with have a higher win/loss against him.

While I have never said he is trash tier, you are clinging to a position like it is the be all and end all, the numbers as a whole don't really back you, especially in the comparison that you bring to the table.

Edit: I would also say that the distance isn't as small as you suggest between Peacekeeper and Aramusha in terms of overall percentages, 3% covers the top three, 5% covers the top five, 7% covers the top nine. From Aramusha down to 16th, so covering ten characters, there is only 3%. That suggests that a chunk of the cast are fairly close but the top few are significantly better performing than them.

HazelrahFirefly
03-20-2018, 06:24 PM
I know you're arguing with me because its what you and others do - git gud or quit the game!

What I'm driving at is that for months people on here have said... not that the Aramusha is a contender, not that he is good, the middle, or even just ok. They have said he is the BOTTOM.

They cite the top competitive duelists as their foothold, claiming that in that circle he is absolute trash. Here he is, not at the bottom, and yet still people argue. The cult mentality on this board is a bit frightening. Its time to admit that in the top 2% of duelists that Aramusha can hold his own.

CandleInTheDark
03-20-2018, 06:26 PM
I know you're arguing with me because its what you and others do - git gud or quit the game!

You know what, no, just no.

I have never once said git gud.

I argued against that mentality when people were saying git gud over peacekeeper lights way back in season one. I said way back then that git gud doesn't help the game improve.

I was set on debating with what we can see, you are the one who decided to take this into personal attacks and I don't have the time nor inclination to deal with that BS.

HazelrahFirefly
03-20-2018, 07:53 PM
You know what, no, just no.

I have never once said git gud.

I argued against that mentality when people were saying git gud over peacekeeper lights way back in season one. I said way back then that git gud doesn't help the game improve.

I was set on debating with what we can see, you are the one who decided to take this into personal attacks and I don't have the time nor inclination to deal with that BS.

Perhaps not you in particular. I can't, and don't want to, remember everyone's names.

If you argued against the git gud mentality then good on you brother. I wish more people here stood up against it, because its the core of the toxic community for this and every game.

I don't see the personal attacks point, but I apologize if I made you feel that way. My frothing is based on months of people telling me that I just flat out suck, that I should quit the game, that there's no hope for me, and so on. Its beyond frustrating, especially when at times I can do amazingly well.

Even people who agree with me that difficulty is subjective have still told me that I just plain suck because I find the Aramusha difficult. Its enough to make a guy tear out his remaining hair.

CandleInTheDark
03-20-2018, 08:42 PM
Perhaps not you in particular. I can't, and don't want to, remember everyone's names.

If you argued against the git gud mentality then good on you brother. I wish more people here stood up against it, because its the core of the toxic community for this and every game.

I don't see the personal attacks point, but I apologize if I made you feel that way. My frothing is based on months of people telling me that I just flat out suck, that I should quit the game, that there's no hope for me, and so on. Its beyond frustrating, especially when at times I can do amazingly well.

Even people who agree with me that difficulty is subjective have still told me that I just plain suck because I find the Aramusha difficult. Its enough to make a guy tear out his remaining hair.

I may have come across a little strong,it felt like that what you were saying was because I disagree with you I am one of these people that don't care when a character is viable or not, if my character is strong everyone else can just at git gud' which has never been my mentality.

I want every character viable, I intend to get them all to rep 7 and it's good for the health of a game I put a lot of time into. What I am looking at is more how many good and bad matchups a character has and how many of them are outside the 45-55 range the debs look for. In my view Aramusha could maybe do with a few things changing but he is in a healthier place than some others.

Knight_Raime
03-20-2018, 11:07 PM
No, I won't.

The LB clearly is good, and most would agree. You can claim a kit isnt viable, but then.. Ya know... 7th of the top 2% of players, so that statement doesn't matter.

Players skill? So other classes don't take into account a player's skill? Of course they do, its all based on skill. Any hero can kill any hero, so that means the Ara is 7th best.

I know that some of you elitists on here have no problem with the Ara, and thats great for you. I honestly am jealous because he's still my number one threat, but the data is right there. Stop ignoring it.

The only time LB is respected as "good" is in 4v4 because running impale and bomb feats.
He is a terrible duelist because his neutral options either ask him to repeat the same action (being very easy to read and punish) or just go back to being neutral. Which doesn't allow LB to use lots of his kit. Beyond that he's got no OOS pressure. He's got nothing to force you to open up. You can freely dodge away from his dodge shove. and his long arm. and simply blocking left prevents running impale. Beyond that he's got VERY bad dodge distance and recovery. meaning LB is forced to deal with most mix ups.

The only time LB actually manages to get anywhere is by turtling up and always doing block shove into light+ being a parry god. But considering how slow his heavies are he's not great at the feint bait game. It's very easy to see if he's going to feint or commit.

I never once claimed his kit isn't viable. Every kit is viable. Just not all are good kits. And you can refute my point all you want. The devs (who take feedback from everywhere) have already stated block shove is the majority reason why LB is so high. Not because he's a good duelist.

You're strawmanning. Player skill is something that should be accounted for when making tier lists. My point was (which you didn't refute) that Aramusha has no openers. And even in the win data it shows that aramusha struggles against good turtle heros. And that because he's got no openers (among some other things) his kit isn't amazing like you seem to think.

When I ever speak about a hero's viability it's always based on what options the hero has mix up wise and what the match ups versus S tier heros are like. Because mix ups are key to actually opening someone who's good at the game with decent reflexes. And you can be the best hero at destroying low tier heros. If you don't have a favorable matchup VS meta heros then you're basically irrelevant in terms of competitive play.

I don't think Aramusha is a dumpster. I don't think you can't win with him. I'm stating that his kit isn't strong because he has no favorable matchups against S tier heros and he's got no way to force a reaction out of an opponent. If you don't use BB your options are severely limited. and BB in itself nets you very little consistent damage and is highly punishable from baits. which. if you have been living under a rock. Is one of the BIGGEST aspects of this games combat.

There is no data here. Him being 7th out of 18 heros isn't amazing when 4-5 of those heros suck against pretty much anyone. and he himself struggles against heros in the top 4. (and i'm talking a real list here. Not something that only takes win rate into account.)

I'm glad the devs published data like this just so we can see how they see things and consider things.

[edited by UbiInsulin]

HazelrahFirefly
03-20-2018, 11:37 PM
I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying mostly. I dont actually believe the Aramusha to be an unbeatable glitch. I have killed them myself, mostly with reworked or dlc heroes.

My stance is that the Aramusha clearly isn't as bad as some people claim. When people like myself make threads complaining about the Ara we get told that we completely suck and that he is literally the worst hero. That's obviously not true, and that's all I want recognized.

Not by you, or Candle, or anyone else specifically. I'm not strawmanning becausw I'm not even laying accusations to anyone in particular.

I'm just happy that this graph exists to prove that its fair that myself, and others, find the Aramusha to be a monster. Difficulty is subjective and now I don't have to accept people telling me that I need to git gud or quit.

Like in Bloodborne. Ive never had a problem with Orphan, but to this day Ludwig takes me 30 through 50 tries. The Bb board acknowledges that he can be though, but on here people have honestly said that the Aramusha is garbage tier, the worst hero in the game, and that I should quit playing because in terrible.

UbiInsulin
03-20-2018, 11:50 PM
It's also worth noting that balance varies widely depending on the specific 1 on 1 matchup, i.e. Aramusha had a 39% winrate against WL, 66% against Orochi. I feel like this has probably colored a lot more conversation on these boards than people realize.

Also, thanks to E1seNw0LfI for pointing out that Centurion and LB have over 50% winrates against each other. :| I'll make note of that.

Knight_Raime
03-21-2018, 12:29 AM
I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying mostly. I dont actually believe the Aramusha to be an unbeatable glitch. I have killed them myself, mostly with reworked or dlc heroes.

My stance is that the Aramusha clearly isn't as bad as some people claim. When people like myself make threads complaining about the Ara we get told that we completely suck and that he is literally the worst hero. That's obviously not true, and that's all I want recognized.

Not by you, or Candle, or anyone else specifically. I'm not strawmanning becausw I'm not even laying accusations to anyone in particular.

I'm just happy that this graph exists to prove that its fair that myself, and others, find the Aramusha to be a monster. Difficulty is subjective and now I don't have to accept people telling me that I need to git gud or quit.

Like in Bloodborne. Ive never had a problem with Orphan, but to this day Ludwig takes me 30 through 50 tries. The Bb board acknowledges that he can be though, but on here people have honestly said that the Aramusha is garbage tier, the worst hero in the game, and that I should quit playing because in terrible.

It's important to understand one's tone and perspective when it comes to discussions. Which I admit is harder to do over text conversations.
For instance, my brother often swears or says things rather bluntly. Not because he believes in those things/uses them as insults or to talk down to someone. But rather he's just a matter of fact, to the point, short and direct kind of person. If he says "stop being stupid" he's not saying he thinks you're stupid. He's saying what you're doing is stupid. I still can and do get triggered over how he talks sometimes knowing this. But still.

In Aramusha's case majority of the people I know who say he's "bad" are not invalidating your experience. They're speaking from their own perspective which is usually a competitive level.
I never once denied how difficult Aramusha is for average players/console players. I only take issue when people claim that because they struggle against him (or most heros really) that it's universally a problem and emprically needs to be fixed.

If you actually happen to look at my post history in the past week ish on the competitive reddit i've received quite a few downvotes specifically because I still want this game to be largely reaction based with simply improving a few mix ups and adding a few new ones. I want the game to stay more like a fencer with a higher skill floor than making it more into a traditional fighter. (which is my impression most people are after on that subreddit.) Hell if you looked at my balance thread my suggestions on buffing aramusha do nothing to make his combos better. Which is what average players specifically struggle with. Nor do I suggest giving him an opener. Both of which are things the competitive reddit is absolutely demanding for Aramusha.

I try to keep competitive and average players in mind whilst making my suggestions. I just get frustrated when people choose to ignore my advise and continue to blame the character. Again. The graph doesn't really prove anything. Especially if it's specifically only looking at top players for most of it. Considering the community is largely console it's going to skew the results a little. Showing that Aramusha gets away with more than he really does. Personally I think it's sad that you'd rather take this as evidence of your issue and not seek to improve. You come off as being content with being average. Which I suppose is fine. As long as you don't try to insert your opinions on the same ground as someone who plays at a higher level than you.

Aramusha is "garbage" tier in regards to having no OOS pressure, No openers, and no favorable matchups vs the generally accepted tier list of S tier heros from the competitive community. This doesn't mean Aramusha can't be used to win. Or that people should avoid playing as him. Because tier lists while helpful for meta game discussion and balance is not an end all be all thing. And it's a bad idea for anyone to put a huge stock in it.

HazelrahFirefly
03-21-2018, 02:57 AM
" Personally I think it's sad that you'd rather take this as evidence of your issue and not seek to improve. You come off as being content with being average. Which I suppose is fine. As long as you don't try to insert your opinions on the same ground as someone who plays at a higher level than you."

That's a downright insulting assumption, I hope you end up apologizing.

I try to improve every day, but I've definitely given up with some characters until their rework (Orochi and Valk don't feel as if they are a part of FH anymore).

Again, what I am trying to point out NOT TO YOU OR ANYONE ELSE IN THIS THREAD SPECIFICALLY AS FAR AS I CAN TELL, is that Aramusha should never be called the worst hero in the game, and those of us that struggle against him shouldn't be told that we suck and should quit.

A few people run that pole hard around here. Its ugly and should honestly be cause for banning.

I've agreed with a lot of the things you post Raime (your name is akin to one of my favorite Souls bosses). I do get frustrated to the point of *****ing, but its difficult not to feel that way when you've fought hundreds of matches against Ara (including lvl 3 bot practice) and still don't see it.

I also understand that it's mostly me, despite that I can react to Shaman, PK, Glad, all the other usual culprits. For some reason only the Ara and Kensei feel unfair to me, which makes it even more disappointing when some clown on here tells you to kys and quit.

Knight_Raime
03-21-2018, 03:40 AM
" Personally I think it's sad that you'd rather take this as evidence of your issue and not seek to improve. You come off as being content with being average. Which I suppose is fine. As long as you don't try to insert your opinions on the same ground as someone who plays at a higher level than you."

That's a downright insulting assumption, I hope you end up apologizing.

I try to improve every day, but I've definitely given up with some characters until their rework (Orochi and Valk don't feel as if they are a part of FH anymore).

Again, what I am trying to point out NOT TO YOU OR ANYONE ELSE IN THIS THREAD SPECIFICALLY AS FAR AS I CAN TELL, is that Aramusha should never be called the worst hero in the game, and those of us that struggle against him shouldn't be told that we suck and should quit.

A few people run that pole hard around here. Its ugly and should honestly be cause for banning.

I've agreed with a lot of the things you post Raime (your name is akin to one of my favorite Souls bosses). I do get frustrated to the point of *****ing, but its difficult not to feel that way when you've fought hundreds of matches against Ara (including lvl 3 bot practice) and still don't see it.

I also understand that it's mostly me, despite that I can react to Shaman, PK, Glad, all the other usual culprits. For some reason only the Ara and Kensei feel unfair to me, which makes it even more disappointing when some clown on here tells you to kys and quit.

I mean i'll apologize. I'm just saying that it's what it sounded like. Or how it came off as.
I know you're not singling one particular person out.

He isn't the worst hero in the game technically because goki is behind him in the duel tier list.
As i've already pointed out when me and/or others call him really bad it's from a competitive standpoint. In no way is it intended or aimed at invalidating yours or others experiences. If you're going to get hung up on specific phrasing when you know full well what it means (as i've now explained to you) that's entirely on you and not me.

I agree that attacks on yours or others skill is crossing the line. And I apologize for saying you suck earlier. I felt justified in being harsh since you were choosing to be stubborn. Not saying it was right. Just explaining why I reacted the way I did. If someone tells you to kys on here just report them and try not to take it too personally.

E1seNw0Lf
03-21-2018, 05:58 AM
It's also worth noting that balance varies widely depending on the specific 1 on 1 matchup, i.e. Aramusha had a 39% winrate against WL, 66% against Orochi. I feel like this has probably colored a lot more conversation on these boards than people realize.

Also, thanks to E1seNw0LfI for pointing out that Centurion and LB have over 50% winrates against each other. :| I'll make note of that.
Pretty sure Pascal ****ed it up. ;)

A question to the devs (for next Warriors Den, maybe):

"Did the fight team ever thought about to let all heros have reflex guard? (means: no hero with permanent auto-guard)"

Like Roman said in one of the earlier streams last year. When someone is starting to learn a material art, the first thing you learn is how to defend yourself (I did Wushu for several years and a few others too)
- I definitly agree on that. Be forced to actively keep up the guard myself at the very right moment is something I really enjoy in this game. It makes it more interesting to me and I feel it's something essential for this type of game.
[I]I think it could help a bit to engage the turtle mentality on several characters (whereas I dont like the typical assassin guard wiggle thingy) and the lack of some characters having no opener.

CandleInTheDark
03-21-2018, 09:22 AM
Pretty sure Pascal ****ed it up. ;)

A question to the devs (for next Warriors Den, maybe):

"Did the fight team ever thought about to let all heros have reflex guard? (means: no hero with permanent auto-guard)"

Like Roman said in one of the earlier streams last year. When someone is starting to learn a material art, the first thing you learn is how to defend yourself (I did Wushu for several years and a few others too)
- I definitly agree on that. Be forced to actively keep up the guard myself at the very right moment is something I really enjoy in this game. It makes it more interesting to me and I feel it's something essential for this type of game.
[I]I think it could help a bit to engage the turtle mentality on several characters (whereas I dont like the typical assassin guard wiggle thingy) and the lack of some characters having no opener.

No q&a this week unless plans changed but I will put it in the last recap that had one so I can put it into next week's.

HazelrahFirefly
03-21-2018, 09:25 AM
I mean i'll apologize. I'm just saying that it's what it sounded like. Or how it came off as.
I know you're not singling one particular person out.

He isn't the worst hero in the game technically because goki is behind him in the duel tier list.
As i've already pointed out when me and/or others call him really bad it's from a competitive standpoint. In no way is it intended or aimed at invalidating yours or others experiences. If you're going to get hung up on specific phrasing when you know full well what it means (as i've now explained to you) that's entirely on you and not me.

I agree that attacks on yours or others skill is crossing the line. And I apologize for saying you suck earlier. I felt justified in being harsh since you were choosing to be stubborn. Not saying it was right. Just explaining why I reacted the way I did. If someone tells you to kys on here just report them and try not to take it too personally.

Its all good, with both you and Candle. I do know that text can be transcribed differently, and I can understand getting the impression wrong based on what I said.

I'll keep practicing and trying to figure Ara out.

E1seNw0Lf
03-21-2018, 09:55 AM
No q&a this week unless plans changed but I will put it in the last recap that had one so I can put it into next week's.
Awesome. Thx. (plz include the reference to Roman as a sidenote :))

PS: Due to shift work I'm not able to watch it live this week. :(