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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:27 AM
I've been curious about who used the Bf-109 besides Germany during the war.

"Other users & postwar development

Even from the earliest days, the Bf 109 was used extensively by Germany's allies and was also sold to neutrals. Bf 109Es were sold to Yugoslavia and fought the Luftwaffe when the country was overrun in 1941, but Yugoslav pilots were poorly trained in the hot aircraft and offered little effective resistance.
Five Bf 109E-7s were provided to the Japanese in 1941, but while they were interested in the DB 601 engine and license built it for their Kawasaki Ki-61 fighter, they had little interest in the Bf 109 itself.
Bf 109s were provided to German-allied Italian forces late in the war, and the Italian pilots flew them with distinction. They were also provided to Croatian, Slovakian, Hungarian, Bulgarian, and Romanian forces. Romanian Bf 109Gs would be turned against the Luftwaffe late in the war when the country went over to the Soviets.
The Bf 109 was used with great effect by the Finns against the Russians, with Finnish ace Eino Juutilainen scoring 94 victories, most of them in a Gustav. He was never hit once in combat and was the highest-scoring non-Germanic fighter pilot in all history.

Switzerland purchased both Doras and Emils before the outbreak of war, and used them in several furious dogfights with the Luftwaffe over incursions during the invasion of France, with the Luftwaffe losing a handful of He 111s and Bf 110s to the loss of a few Swiss Bf 109s.
Despite these incidents, the Swiss obtained a number of Gustavs late in the war. An Me 110 night fighter, carrying sophisticated electronics and armament, strayed into Swiss airspace in late April, 1944, and landed near Zurich due to engine trouble. The Germans bargained with the Swiss to sell them twelve Bf 109Gs under the condition that they burn the Me 110.
Later in the war Swiss Bf 109s were to intercept Allied bombers that strayed into their airspace, forcing them to land and be interned. There were rarely problems, but while escorting a B-24, a USAAF P-51D shot down one Swiss Bf 109 and damaged another. The Swiss tried painting their Bf 109s with loud red and white stripes to emphasize the Swiss cross markings, but this was discontinued because then the Luftwaffe mistook them as Allied aircraft painted in invasion stripes.
The Swiss Bf 109s were to serve after the war, only being scrapped in 1949.

The Bf 109 was manufactured by IAR in Romania and Avia in Czechoslovakia during the war. After the war, Avia continued to manufacture the Bf 109 but ran low on Daimler-Benz engines. They had a stock of Junkers Jumo 211 engines available, which were to have been used for He 111 bombers, and so Avia engineers mated the Jumo 211 to the Bf 109G airframe, resulting in the Avia S199.
It wasn't a happy marriage. The Jumo 211 was optimized for low RPM and high torque using a big paddle-bladed propeller, and the S199 was a nightmare to fly, with performance inferior to a Bf 109E. Czech pilots gave it the contemptuous nickname of "Mezec", or "Mule".
Nonetheless, Avia built a number of S199s and a two-seat conversion trainer variant, the CS199, and even sold a number of them to the new state of Israel in 1948. The Israelis found them a threat to their own pilots and ineffective in combat, and quickly phased out the Mezecs in favor of Spitfire Mark IXs and P-51Ds."

From- http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/equipment-air-messerschmitt-109.htm

I didn't know this.

Atticus



http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~nagle/p51dalone.jpg


Atticus

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:27 AM
I've been curious about who used the Bf-109 besides Germany during the war.

"Other users & postwar development

Even from the earliest days, the Bf 109 was used extensively by Germany's allies and was also sold to neutrals. Bf 109Es were sold to Yugoslavia and fought the Luftwaffe when the country was overrun in 1941, but Yugoslav pilots were poorly trained in the hot aircraft and offered little effective resistance.
Five Bf 109E-7s were provided to the Japanese in 1941, but while they were interested in the DB 601 engine and license built it for their Kawasaki Ki-61 fighter, they had little interest in the Bf 109 itself.
Bf 109s were provided to German-allied Italian forces late in the war, and the Italian pilots flew them with distinction. They were also provided to Croatian, Slovakian, Hungarian, Bulgarian, and Romanian forces. Romanian Bf 109Gs would be turned against the Luftwaffe late in the war when the country went over to the Soviets.
The Bf 109 was used with great effect by the Finns against the Russians, with Finnish ace Eino Juutilainen scoring 94 victories, most of them in a Gustav. He was never hit once in combat and was the highest-scoring non-Germanic fighter pilot in all history.

Switzerland purchased both Doras and Emils before the outbreak of war, and used them in several furious dogfights with the Luftwaffe over incursions during the invasion of France, with the Luftwaffe losing a handful of He 111s and Bf 110s to the loss of a few Swiss Bf 109s.
Despite these incidents, the Swiss obtained a number of Gustavs late in the war. An Me 110 night fighter, carrying sophisticated electronics and armament, strayed into Swiss airspace in late April, 1944, and landed near Zurich due to engine trouble. The Germans bargained with the Swiss to sell them twelve Bf 109Gs under the condition that they burn the Me 110.
Later in the war Swiss Bf 109s were to intercept Allied bombers that strayed into their airspace, forcing them to land and be interned. There were rarely problems, but while escorting a B-24, a USAAF P-51D shot down one Swiss Bf 109 and damaged another. The Swiss tried painting their Bf 109s with loud red and white stripes to emphasize the Swiss cross markings, but this was discontinued because then the Luftwaffe mistook them as Allied aircraft painted in invasion stripes.
The Swiss Bf 109s were to serve after the war, only being scrapped in 1949.

The Bf 109 was manufactured by IAR in Romania and Avia in Czechoslovakia during the war. After the war, Avia continued to manufacture the Bf 109 but ran low on Daimler-Benz engines. They had a stock of Junkers Jumo 211 engines available, which were to have been used for He 111 bombers, and so Avia engineers mated the Jumo 211 to the Bf 109G airframe, resulting in the Avia S199.
It wasn't a happy marriage. The Jumo 211 was optimized for low RPM and high torque using a big paddle-bladed propeller, and the S199 was a nightmare to fly, with performance inferior to a Bf 109E. Czech pilots gave it the contemptuous nickname of "Mezec", or "Mule".
Nonetheless, Avia built a number of S199s and a two-seat conversion trainer variant, the CS199, and even sold a number of them to the new state of Israel in 1948. The Israelis found them a threat to their own pilots and ineffective in combat, and quickly phased out the Mezecs in favor of Spitfire Mark IXs and P-51Ds."

From- http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/equipment-air-messerschmitt-109.htm

I didn't know this.

Atticus



http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~nagle/p51dalone.jpg


Atticus

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:33 AM
Guys,,
If anyone has any sources for reading about Swiss use of the Bf-109-please post! I would like to design some missions around this.

Atticus

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~nagle/p51dalone.jpg


Atticus

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:39 AM
Good story.
Here is one
http://www.swissmustangs.ch/mediac/400_0/media/109.jpg


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 07:30 AM
voxdei2 wrote:

Bf 109Es were sold to Yugoslavia and
- fought the Luftwaffe when the country was overrun in
- 1941, but Yugoslav pilots were poorly trained in the
- hot aircraft and offered little effective
- resistance.

This is not true. Yugoslavia (RYAF) had other modern fighters in use, namely Hurricane which was built domestically under license as well as indigenous fighter Rogozarski Ik-3 which was a very modern fighter, comparable with Bf-109E3 and Spitfire Mk.I. Yugoslav pilots were decently trained and offered resonable resistance. However, they were severely outnumbered. Germans and their allies litterally surrounded the country.

True, RYAF received new aircraft a bit late but the pilots who flew them were the best in the country. Still, there were only ~50 Messers with 6 IK-3s. Too little to seriously confront Luftwaffe.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 08:53 AM
Swiss striper.....

---> http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=2767

http://www.il2skins.com/skins/thumbs/2767.jpg


There are a number of Swiss Fb109s and Isreal 199s but neither country is listed in the filter list of countries so you have to dig for them. And there is like 8 pages of E4s alone.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:16 PM
Yeah, I've been reading about the bravery that Yugoslavia exhibited. Downright amazing. What a cool story! It would be cool if there was a campaing or mission set that revolved around this heroic group of men! I am definitely going to fly the Yugoslavian bf-109 alot now.
I do want to find out any more information about other users of the bf-109 during the war. If anyone else has any info- please post.
I've heard Romania used them toward the end of the war to fight Germany. Anyone have any information about this?

Thanks

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~nagle/p51dalone.jpg


Atticus

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:31 PM
voxdei2 wrote:

- It wasn't a happy marriage. The Jumo 211 was
- optimized for low RPM and high torque using a big
- paddle-bladed propeller, and the S199 was a
- nightmare to fly, with performance inferior to a Bf
- 109E. Czech pilots gave it the contemptuous nickname
- of "Mezec", or "Mule".
- Nonetheless, Avia built a number of S199s and a
- two-seat conversion trainer variant, the CS199, and
- even sold a number of them to the new state of
- Israel in 1948. The Israelis found them a threat to
- their own pilots and ineffective in combat, and
- quickly phased out the Mezecs in favor of Spitfire
- Mark IXs and P-51Ds."
-

Very good read, some things seems not to be correct, the Avia S.199 was a plane with a bad handling, and difficult to start, fly and land. The Pilots of the IAF didn´t like it cause of the causes you allready mentioned, (they call the AVIA - Nazi´s revange) but in mockdogfights, they did vs SpitsIX and P51 it outclimbs the Mustang even with the low RPM bomberengine.



From a very interesting homepage about the IAF 101. Squadron

http://www.101squadron.com/101real/101sqn.html (A very good read)

On the other hand, Gordon Levett had some kind words for the type:

In mock dog-fights, we concluded that the Messerschmitt could out-climb, out-dive and out-zoom the Spitfire and Mustang. The Spitfire could out-turn the Messerschmitt, the most important manoeuvre in air combat, and both could out-turn the Mustang. The Mustang was the fastest, the Messerschmitt the slowest, though there was not much in it. The Mustang had the best visibility, important for a fighter aircraft, the Messerschmitt the worst. The Spitfire cockpit fitted like a glove, the Messerschmitt like a strait-jacket, the Mustang like a too comfortable armchair. The Spitfire had two 20-mm cannon and four .303 machine guns (sic, actually, the Spits had two .50s, not four .303s), the Mustang six 12.7-mm machine guns (a.k.a. .50 caliber), and the Messerschmitt two 20-mm cannon and two 7.92-mm machine guns synchronised to fire through the arc of the propeller.... Despite the pros and cons the Spitfire was everyone's first choice. (Levett 1994)



And keep in mind, the Avia 199 was carrying gunpods! So it even outclimbed the Mustang with the pods...
The IAF Pilots also destroyed more planes with the AVIA then with the P51 (also related to the fact that they got them earlier!)


Some other interesting sites...

http://home.sprynet.com/~anneled/IAFtotal.html

http://www.geocities.com/idf_squadron/history/avia.htm


JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
I./Gruppe

http://www.jg53-pikas.de/
http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/Ani_pikasbanner_langsam.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 03:13 PM
The Swiss eventually upgraded from the Bf-109:

http://www.swissmustangs.ch/mediac/400_0/media/J-2113~Buochs_a.jpg


Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/sigstang.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 03:50 PM
"The Swiss eventually upgraded from the Bf-109":


I'm smiling bigtime. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif )))




http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~nagle/p51dalone.jpg


Atticus

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~nagle/p51dalone.jpg


Atticus

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 03:54 PM
a few details on the swiss Bf-109Gs :

Germany sold Switzerland 12 of the newest Bf-109G6s, among them 6 with the new large-visibility canopy, in exchange of the destruction of the 110 nightfighter.
However the Swiss were very unhappy with their G6s : very low engine durability, some gunsights and instruments missing, poor overall quality...
On one of the non-airworthy G6s they even found an inscription on a part in french : "Nous travaillons, mais nous sabotons", meaning "We work, but we sabotage"
In the end they were never used and were sent to the scrapyard, the Swiss preferring their reliable E3s, to which they added their own homemade improvements as time went by to keep them up-to-date.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 03:59 PM
swiss would be escorting wounded bombers mostly
i imagine


whineingu /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 07:46 PM
karlzeiss Thanks!!!

Do you know where I cuuld find some information about the encounters they did have with the E variants?

Thanks,

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~nagle/p51dalone.jpg


Atticus

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 08:16 PM
Abbuzze wrote:

- On the other hand, Gordon Levett had some kind words
- for the type:
-
- In mock dog-fights, we concluded that the
- Messerschmitt could out-climb, out-dive and out-zoom
- the Spitfire and Mustang. The Spitfire could
- out-turn the Messerschmitt, the most important
- manoeuvre in air combat, and both could out-turn the
- Mustang. The Mustang was the fastest, the
- Messerschmitt the slowest, though there was not much
- in it. The Mustang had the best visibility,
- important for a fighter aircraft, the Messerschmitt
- the worst. The Spitfire cockpit fitted like a glove,
- the Messerschmitt like a strait-jacket, the Mustang
- like a too comfortable armchair. The Spitfire had
- two 20-mm cannon and four .303 machine guns (sic,
- actually, the Spits had two .50s, not four .303s),
- the Mustang six 12.7-mm machine guns (a.k.a. .50
- caliber), and the Messerschmitt two 20-mm cannon and
- two 7.92-mm machine guns synchronised to fire
- through the arc of the propeller.... Despite the
- pros and cons the Spitfire was everyone's first
- choice. (Levett 1994)

Did the S-199 not have a pair of cowl mounted 13mm MG-131 guns? I have never heard it it refered to as having 7.92mm armament (its weapons were basically a G-6/R6 mix, minus the engine cannon).

Whatever the weapons were, the cowl mounted guns were a serious problem on the S-199. The synchronisation gear on the engine was unreliable, and there were several incidents where IAF pilots inadvertently shot their own propeller blades off!



"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 08:22 PM
Abbuzze wrote:
-
-
- From a very interesting homepage about the IAF 101.
- Squadron
-
- <a
- href="http://www.101squadron.com/101real/101sqn.ht
- ml"
- target=_blank>http://www.101squadron.com/101real/1
- 01sqn.html</a> (A very good read)
-
-
- On the other hand, Gordon Levett had some kind words
- for the type:
-
- The Mustang had the best visibility,
- important for a fighter aircraft, the Messerschmitt
- the worst. The Spitfire cockpit fitted like a glove,
- the Messerschmitt like a strait-jacket, the Mustang
- like a too comfortable armchair. (Levett 1994)
-
-

Hummmm, I like these two statements. 'Puts the run' to the UTs claims for the 109./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 08:24 PM
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/7934/mezek4c.jpg


You`ve gotta love this plane

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/291003-01anoseart_us_08.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:05 AM
That's it, you are right. I heard many people want build one today like they did with Fw-190A but fear of possible repeat accident landing due to undercarriage. If I want build one, I may prefer build it with KI-61 wing

Regards
SnowLeopard