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Vrbas1
03-12-2018, 06:41 AM
Anyone else notice this? It's like the safest move currently. Doesn't matter the AoE or range a hero's attack, it seems to pass right through the almighty Kensei and is immune to any kind of interruption.

Perhaps it's just me, but I've used every hero from LB to Zerk w/ hyper armor and nothing is able to counter or disrupt this. Thoughts anyone else?

Protos_88
03-12-2018, 06:56 AM
agree, olso devs so they give to him some new moves nad gb. now he can spam dodge faint even 4vs1

Devils-_-legacy
03-12-2018, 08:03 AM
Yh I'll admit the way he can dodge attack in the middle of combo surprised me at first I havnt been able to interrupt one yet

x_Senduko_x
03-12-2018, 10:40 AM
If a kensei beat u just with dodgeattack opener, than u deserve the lose. than u are just an idiot

BTTrinity
03-12-2018, 02:33 PM
Anyone else notice this? It's like the safest move currently. Doesn't matter the AoE or range a hero's attack, it seems to pass right through the almighty Kensei and is immune to any kind of interruption.

Perhaps it's just me, but I've used every hero from LB to Zerk w/ hyper armor and nothing is able to counter or disrupt this. Thoughts anyone else?

They're just like any other dodge attack, bait and parry.

Protos_88
03-12-2018, 05:09 PM
If a kensei beat u just with dodgeattack opener, than u deserve the lose. than u are just an idiot

at 1 you are idiot when, 2 you are idiot....

KotoKuraken
03-12-2018, 05:56 PM
Well, as someone who decided to pick up Kensei, I'll say this much:
-If you throw out a light attack, Kensei's dodge attack trumps over your light attack like any other Assassin, except he can delay it quite awhile before starting it. This does mean, however, he is highly susceptible to being grabbed. Otherwise, try to limit how many light attacks you throw out against a Kensei with a hard-on for dodge attacks
-If you throw out a heavy attack, you can always feint and block, sometimes even parry the dodge attack. Kensei cannot feint his dodge attack, so if he goes through and you've feinted, you know you're in the clear to parry

XJadeDragoonX
03-12-2018, 06:38 PM
The real issue is the travel path of the kensei dash attack. It's inconsistent and just takes a very awkward path. He almost circles around you sometimes. And the attack can also be delayed which can be very confusing. I think all dash attacks should be lights. They're too easy to use and they're fast as **** anyway. Should get a good punish off of it

WastedPunk
03-12-2018, 08:16 PM
It's the hitbox.
I have hit Berserkers, peacekeepers,Raiders,Gladiator as they are dodge attacking but Kensei's hit box is extremely awkward and is almost non existent.As a result of which,it makes it extremely safe.

HazelrahFirefly
03-12-2018, 08:21 PM
Agreed. Its the safest move in the game. So many attacks just pass right through his body.

Archeun
03-12-2018, 09:41 PM
Kensei is BS. Shaman is BS. By the end of the reworks; most chars will be BS. They are turning the game into nothing but Spam, Feints and Unblockables.

RenegadeTX2000
03-12-2018, 10:44 PM
Kenseis dodge attack is brain dead. No thought of timing, you just do it. But like any other dodge attack you risk getting parried but with this dodge attack you know you won't be getting hit out of it like other dodge attacks.

Kensei dodge attack=Greatest of Alll Time.

XJadeDragoonX
03-12-2018, 11:17 PM
It shouldn't have superior block. All that means is you were gonna hit him out of it, but f u c k you instead lmao

HazelrahFirefly
03-12-2018, 11:33 PM
It shouldn't have superior block. All that means is you were gonna hit him out of it, but f u c k you instead lmao

Waaay too many of his attacks are uninterruptible. That should be a thing rarely seen in a game like this. Only certain things like the Heavy swings of the HL and Shug.

XJadeDragoonX
03-12-2018, 11:52 PM
I think they just need to make it a light and remove superior block. So that way he can't keep doing his combo if you block. And if you parry it, he takes big damage. It's too low risk, high reward as is.

But to be fair, all sidestep attacks should be lights. People abuse sidestep heavies so often. They rely on it so much because it's so reliable and even if you parry, you just get a light. Shaman, pk, kensei. All these classes do is spam that when you go to attack. Sure it's punishable. But it's just so easy. Should be more dangerous

RenegadeTX2000
03-12-2018, 11:57 PM
nah, make it to where it's a superior light like highlanders offensive light.

Arekonator
03-13-2018, 12:13 AM
It only got superior block during the dodge before he initiates the attack, so he only benefits from it when he dodges into your attack like with deflect. and even then he sometimes doesnt get anything because how long it takes to land.
Its REALLY slow and when you know that he will attempt it its easy to bait for a free parry though.

But i have to admit its amazing in group fights thanks to wide hitbox and how confusing it is when its targetswitched.

XJadeDragoonX
03-13-2018, 12:19 AM
Kensei and shaman can keep attacking after their easy as hell side Dodge attack. It's not even the move itself that's frustrating. It's what the move let's them do after.

BeaverDreams
03-13-2018, 12:29 AM
yeah, it's pretty ridiculous. You can see the cogs in their brain clicking slowly but they still get out a heavy from HL that phases right through their body. I'm swinging an I-beam. Give me a break.
Just once... ONCE... I'd like to see a patch come through that's not filled with incongruities and game-killers. You guys wrote it. You should know what it does.

Sauronbaine
03-13-2018, 01:06 AM
Odd. Im not having any problem fighting Kensei. I just parry the dodge attack and smack him with ah eavy. Make him think twice about dodge attacking.

Also you guys release Kensei was garbage before the rework right? Now hes in a good place. He's not S tier, but no longer B tier. He's a nice solid A.

HazelrahFirefly
03-13-2018, 02:05 AM
Odd. Im not having any problem fighting Kensei. I just parry the dodge attack and smack him with ah eavy. Make him think twice about dodge attacking.

Also you guys release Kensei was garbage before the rework right? Now hes in a good place. He's not S tier, but no longer B tier. He's a nice solid A.

Nonsense, he was not garbage.

The problem is that most of us are being in the midst of an attack. The dodge attack is so ****ing fast (I lul at those calling it slow) that he can wait until we commit to something that he will either phase through or hyper armor though.

Essentially its as if the PK got a Shigoki buff. The Kensei is an assassin-heavy hybrid now, not a vanguard at all, and its a terrible direction for the game.

Sauronbaine
03-13-2018, 02:21 AM
Nonsense, he was not garbage.

The problem is that most of us are being in the midst of an attack. The dodge attack is so ****ing fast (I lul at those calling it slow) that he can wait until we commit to something that he will either phase through or hyper armor though.

Essentially its as if the PK got a Shigoki buff. The Kensei is an assassin-heavy hybrid now, not a vanguard at all, and its a terrible direction for the game.

Again, I dont have any problems fighting the Kenseis dodge attack. if I see him dodging, im usually throwing a heavy so i feint into a parry into a light attack and rinse repeat.

And yes, Kensei WAS garbage. Any half decent player never had a problem with the old kensei. He was a free execution.

Again, I dont have problems. If you are having problems with the kensei, thats on you. hes not even close to how PK is/was.


And hyper armor? I dont think he gets Hyper armor on the dash... though I might be mistaken on that. Or do you mean how his combos are hyper armor like berserker? Well, his moves are pretty slow so its not hard to predict and parry, though I will admit, Light attacks get thru cause Im not expecting it.

Vonnivek
03-13-2018, 03:43 AM
I cannot believe so many people are complaining about kensei's dodge attack. It's the slowest and easiest-to-parry dodge attack. If the enemy kensei just spam dodge attack, just feint your attack and parry his dodge attakc, it's so slow that it's almost a free parry. If you have problem facing kensei, you will have much more problem facing zerk/shaman/pkÖetc.

Also kensei's dodge attack should stay as heavy, it's so ******* slow. Before the rework, the kensei's dodge attack is a light, and it's almost a free parry and a free heavy damage punish for kensei.

However, i think shaman and pk's dodge attack should change to light attack, especially shaman's, her dodge attack is so fast but when parried, it's only a light damage punish for her .

Vakris_One
03-13-2018, 03:45 AM
Amazing. I said it before and I'll say it again: it's like some people never even met a Kensei before Season 5.

If you've been playing this game for longer than a week and still don't know how to deal with dodge attacks you really ought to be ashamed of yourself to be honest. There's just no excuse outside of a mental or physical disability for not learning how to deal with a dodge attack by now.

Sneakly20
03-13-2018, 05:26 AM
Iíve noticed that half the people here are getting the wrong idea if Iím reading this right. The post wasnít about baiting or parrying the attack heís talking about how wonky the dodge attack is. like attacks that should hit him no matter what phase through him. Again Iím not talking about waiting for a parry Iím talking the move itself is causing a bug for his body or similar. The side step is easy to parry sure. But the move itself is bugged.

RenegadeTX2000
03-13-2018, 05:29 AM
Yeah, the dodge itself is brain dead... if you dodge you actually have all time to analyze whether or not to actually follow through with the dodge attack. If they try and bait you with a GB you can on reaction go for last minute dodge attack and beat out the GB.

My issue is how late he can delay the move after he dodges.

HazelrahFirefly
03-13-2018, 02:39 PM
^
But you guys go ahead and keep and saying everyone is ****. That's all this forum is, a bunch of wannabe pros circle-jerking and calling every one names.

I've beaten plenty of Kensei, Aramusha, Shaman, Glads, PKs and so on... that doesn't mean that they dont have **** wrong with them. If a ln attack should interrupt the Kensei's dodge attack, but doesn't, the solution isnt "git gud noob."

The game is flawed all over the place!

XJadeDragoonX
03-13-2018, 03:00 PM
I think kensei mains are on here saying it's slows because when you actually play kensei, the animations is sluggish. But when you're on the receiving end, it's very different. It feels slow when you do it, but to the other person, it's lightning fast

BTTrinity
03-13-2018, 03:28 PM
As someone who quit playing this season (For the time being), I find Kensei to be the least problematic out of all the reworks, his is the only one I feel they got right (Sorry Zerk, but throwing hyper armor on lights, and UB's on finisher isnt a rework) Aside from the way he can delay it, his dodge attack is fine. His superior block is needed, because with pouncing grasp he can deflect and without superior block, pouncing grasp would be useless..

The only thing on Kensei that NEEDS to be touched up, is the range of his Zone Attack.

Delaying the dodge attack I dont see as a huge game-changer but I can see it being kind of annoying and unnecessary.

Devils-_-legacy
03-13-2018, 03:34 PM
I think zerk had hyper armour before the rework he just had a harder time to activate it now they have also give ha to his side heavys

Vrbas1
03-13-2018, 04:54 PM
Amazing. I said it before and I'll say it again: it's like some people never even met a Kensei before Season 5.

No, it's just nobody used his dodge attack before because it was parry bait. If you read my original topic post, these are for wide, sweeping attacks that are already in motion that pass through his wonky hit box.

Of course people know how to counter it if it's his opener, that's not what this topic is about.

VeniVidiViciBra
03-13-2018, 05:18 PM
As a kensei main I do agree that it's an extremely safe move. With the changes to parry (which was great) it's such a low risk high reward move.

Vakris_One
03-13-2018, 05:20 PM
Yeah, the dodge itself is brain dead... if you dodge you actually have all time to analyze whether or not to actually follow through with the dodge attack. If they try and bait you with a GB you can on reaction go for last minute dodge attack and beat out the GB.

My issue is how late he can delay the move after he dodges.
No, you can't. A GB will catch you if timed right at the start of your dodge attack unlike the Orochi, Shaman, Zerker and PK dodge attacks which break through a GB attempt because they are faster than Kensei's dodge attack.

Have you tried playing Kensei?


^
But you guys go ahead and keep and saying everyone is ****. That's all this forum is, a bunch of wannabe pros circle-jerking and calling every one names.

I've beaten plenty of Kensei, Aramusha, Shaman, Glads, PKs and so on... that doesn't mean that they dont have **** wrong with them. If a ln attack should interrupt the Kensei's dodge attack, but doesn't, the solution isnt "git gud noob."

The game is flawed all over the place!
It couldn't possibly be because some people understand the character better than you right? I can say the same thing, that this forum is full of whining crybabies who aren't any good so they think everything that gets past their mediocre skill level is a bug, a hack or OP.

Please tell me which attacks are phasing through the Kensei that he did not in fact actually dodge?


I think kensei mains are on here saying it's slows because when you actually play kensei, the animations is sluggish. But when you're on the receiving end, it's very different. It feels slow when you do it, but to the other person, it's lightning fast
Kensei players do actually fight against other Kensei you know, let alone those of us who don't main a single character anymore. His dodge attack is the slowest dodge attack in the entire game. If that's "lightning fast" to you than the PK, Orochi, Shaman, Glad, Zerker, Valk and Ara must be moving so fast that you can't even see them.


No, it's just nobody used his dodge attack before because it was parry bait. If you read my original topic post, these are for wide, sweeping attacks that are already in motion that pass through his wonky hit box.

Of course people know how to counter it if it's his opener, that's not what this topic is about.
How are wide sweeping attacks passing through him if he is dodging them? Please explain which attacks you mean and the timing of the Kensei's dodge attack on them.

Vrbas1
03-13-2018, 05:29 PM
How are wide sweeping attacks passing through him if he is dodging them? Please explain which attacks you mean and the timing of the Kensei's dodge attack on them.

Highlander Celtic Curse and Lawbringer's side heavies/UB's are two I've noted. These are large weapons with an advertised range, yet here we are. I've noted all manner of timings, all with the same result of my weapon passing trough Kensei's character model where they would strike other hero's caught in a dodge attack.

Vakris_One
03-13-2018, 05:48 PM
Highlander Celtic Curse and Lawbringer's side heavies/UB's are two I've noted. These are large weapons with an advertised range, yet here we are. I've noted all manner of timings, all with the same result of my weapon passing trough Kensei's character model where they would strike other hero's caught in a dodge attack.
Highlander should be hitting him with Celtic Curse provided the Kensei dodged early and Highlander soft feinted into a side heavy. He will end up trading hits with the Kensei in most cases. If the Kensei waited and dodged the soft feint into side heavy then the Highlander will miss. I've traded hits with various dodge attacks when playing Highlander, I've never had my blade pass through a Kensei when I've nailed him at the right time.

I've been clobbered by Lawbringer's side heavies and UB side heavies if I dodge too early. If you're seeing your weapon pass through his body then that's either lag or a bug. If it happens frequently try to record video of it and file a bug report.

UbiJurassic
03-13-2018, 06:38 PM
Anyone else notice this? It's like the safest move currently. Doesn't matter the AoE or range a hero's attack, it seems to pass right through the almighty Kensei and is immune to any kind of interruption.

Perhaps it's just me, but I've used every hero from LB to Zerk w/ hyper armor and nothing is able to counter or disrupt this. Thoughts anyone else?

Kensei can be a rough opponent to go against. Generally, you want to refrain from dodging against him and instead focus on blocking and parrying. Even before the rework, Kensei excelled at taking down opponents that were dodge happy. You'll have a much better chance of taking Kensei down if you hold your ground.

Redkey.
03-13-2018, 08:03 PM
Kensei can be a rough opponent to go against. Generally, you want to refrain from dodging against him and instead focus on blocking and parrying. Even before the rework, Kensei excelled at taking down opponents that were dodge happy. You'll have a much better chance of taking Kensei down if you hold your ground.

Especially, if you playing a Shinobi, so parry window+latency+reflex_block+hitpoints against feinting Kernsei.. not the best idea.

mrmistark
03-13-2018, 09:51 PM
Kensei has the slowest dodge attack in the game so itís super easy to parry.

For those that said no one ever dodge attacked pre-rework they are dead wrong or just never faced anyone who mained Kensei, because it was the only quick unlock to UB top heavy finisher. All they did was change it from a light to a heavy because of the speed. It was so slow, itís free damage unless you actually use it as intended which is as a counter attack.

It does indeed have a small hit box, but it is also, contrary to popular belief, completely GB-able on start up so the ďgo into dodge attack after dodge to beat out GbĒ is again, simply just false information. I think itís the only dodge attack to be GB-able, itís even so pretty much until the move actually hits. You can GB him so far into the animation that the ďsmall hit boxĒ isnít even an issue here because if you just Gb itís literally a free heavy.

Anyways, itís the same dang attack itís always been just change to a heavy.

AkenoKobayashi
03-13-2018, 10:19 PM
So Kensei's dodge is as bull as PK or Shinobi's dodge where they can literally back into a corner repeatedly and dodge every attack you send despite they are not moving from that one spot? Kensei haters have jokes.

mrmistark
03-13-2018, 10:29 PM
Iíd also like to note: its a DODGE attack....which means it IS an attack...but itís also a dodge so it should come as not a huge surprise that your attack misses...when he (key word here)...*DODGE* attacks... at the start up of your attack. It doesnít have HA.

HazelrahFirefly
03-13-2018, 11:36 PM
Look, as some of you will know from one of my threads, I am frustratingly trying to conquer the Kensei. Its been five weeks now and I still don't see it at all. He and the Ara (a whole season+ now) seem as broken Gods to me. I can beat everybody else except them!

All I'm saying is that it feels reeeeeeally unfair that he can have I-frames for his dodge attack when no other characters do (if they do, ive never seen it in action, and never done it despite maining PK and Orochi), and have intense tracking (no tracking should exist in the game imo), hyper armor, unblockables, and tied for the longest range.

I know, the other reworks are coming, but **** me I feel like they shouldn't have released anything until all the heroes were equipped to deal with one another appropriately.

Kelson27
03-14-2018, 03:33 AM
I have been struggling against Kensei last I played, I put it down to his oddball timings and wonky wind ups - something I might need to practice against. But as I had said previously in a couple other threads, his dodge attack timings are also wonky to me. I gb most players getting those dodge attacks in, Kensei almost certainly had me bounce off them regardless of the players skill. Iíve also put it down to the servers being implemented and no lag comp yet, when they came in a lot of instances I wouldnít have batted an eyelid at before simply stopped working for me, hopefully they stabilise soon. I main orochi for reference.

Iíve found shaman dodge attacks equally frustrating, the kicker being I have no problem with pk, Valk or zerk dodge attacks at all... so I donít know what the deal is there.

mrmistark
03-14-2018, 04:21 AM
Look, as some of you will know from one of my threads, I am frustratingly trying to conquer the Kensei. Its been five weeks now and I still don't see it at all. He and the Ara (a whole season+ now) seem as broken Gods to me. I can beat everybody else except them!

All I'm saying is that it feels reeeeeeally unfair that he can have I-frames for his dodge attack when no other characters do (if they do, ive never seen it in action, and never done it despite maining PK and Orochi), and have intense tracking (no tracking should exist in the game imo), hyper armor, unblockables, and tied for the longest range.

I know, the other reworks are coming, but **** me I feel like they shouldn't have released anything until all the heroes were equipped to deal with one another appropriately.

Understandable, I think the biggest argument here against nerfing his dodge attack though is that simply his dodge attack is slow, and is also incredibly susceptible to GB. I know for someone who is already struggling against Kensei it can be overwhelming in the moment to the point that by the time youíre done trying to deal with his other stuff the dodge attack is already coming, but if his dodge attack wasnít the way it is already, it would be very very bad in comparison to the rest of the roster.

Secondly, Iíd like to say sorry. Admidst the rest of the random (and not exactly all factual) posts about wanting to nerf the dodge attack, the scope for the real problem was lost which is really just difficulty in dealing with it. Personally, I think for what the attack is it is fine. I donít think it needs a nerf. It doesnít have HA despite what some may think, it is slow, is very susceptible to Gb unlike other dodge attacks and can only be implemented in certain situations. These make up for the small interuptable hit box and itís overall range.

I think to really help you combat the move you should focus on when he can do it:
-neutral: shouldnít be a problem, if he is moving left the attack will come from the right, if his body is moving right the attack will be to the left. Itís easy to parry. If you see Kensei start to dodge left or right you can also try to just GB. If itís a simple dodge he might be able to CGB honestly depending on how fast you reacted to it, but if itís a dodge attack then you will most likely catch him as his dodge attack can be GB out of very late. If you canít do this quick enough on reaction stick to the heavy parry for light attack.

-soft feint from top heavy: all top heavy attacks can be soft feinted by a dodge which means that he can soft fient into a dodge attack. This can be a little quick but just apply the same rules. The key against the other options of his top heavy mix-ups is that he will jump way to the left or right mid start up. If he doesnít do this prepare for a side block on reaction or a dodge from pommel yourself.


Basically long story short it seems like the later is the bigger problem of the two for most. Let me offer my advice for the top heavy mix-ups:

1. Start up of the top heavy, guard top (kind of a ďno duhĒ I guess)

2. Focus on his movement before making any move, a person who decides to try and parry quickly is someone who will fall for the bait every time. It is also important to note that if it isnít UB finisher then a parry isnít even necessary, so try to parry only when it is blatant that the opponent is following through. It is also important to note If they do throw the UB finisher to implement a quick light to interrupt the attack as soon as you see the start up.

3. Determine the Kenseiís course of action and thus your best course of action:
A. follow through with the top heavy: parry or just block
B. Hard cancel into GB: CGB or throw a light
C. soft feint light or heavy side: try to block on reaction. It is important to note here that you may not be successful at first, but the more you see your opponents attack side preference the easier it will be.
D. Pommel strike soft feint: dodge or light attack
E. Now where you have problems, the dodge: the key difference is your opponent will be clearly moving positions as opposed to stationary but changing attack direction like the soft feint attacks or the hard cancel into GB. That being said you have the same options as stated above in the ďwhen they can do itĒ portion.


Now to wrap it all up to make it more comprehensible than the sort of ďgit gudĒ portion above so you can have the most success:

If they stay stationary with guard on top: keep guard on top and get ready to CGB and if you see orange for a pommel strike throw a light or try to dodge.

If they stay stationary but guard changes: just block on reaction cause it will be a light most times. Heavy should be easy-ish to parry on reaction.

If they hop either direction: left dodge move your guard right, right dodge go guard left and get ready to parry or if youíre ballsy and get the timing down GB.

Vakris_One
03-14-2018, 04:28 AM
Look, as some of you will know from one of my threads, I am frustratingly trying to conquer the Kensei. Its been five weeks now and I still don't see it at all. He and the Ara (a whole season+ now) seem as broken Gods to me. I can beat everybody else except them!

All I'm saying is that it feels reeeeeeally unfair that he can have I-frames for his dodge attack when no other characters do (if they do, ive never seen it in action, and never done it despite maining PK and Orochi), and have intense tracking (no tracking should exist in the game imo), hyper armor, unblockables, and tied for the longest range.

I know, the other reworks are coming, but **** me I feel like they shouldn't have released anything until all the heroes were equipped to deal with one another appropriately.
I'm not familiar with the term "I-frames". What does that mean? I've been playing Kensei since he was first introduced in the beta and I have not noticed anything wonky about his dodge attack. At one point his tracking was doing some crazy 360 degree turns but once the devs patched that out it hasn't returned. His tracking is the same as any other character doing dodge and leap attacks. Without tracking they wouldn't ever land those types of attacks.

Kensei has been waiting the longest time for a rework. He was always the weakest Vanguard of the 3, lacking the same threat that both the Warden (SB mind game, fast zone) and Raider (Top light/zone mind game, massive stamina punish potential from GB and unlock charge) posessed. He was the easiest Vanguard of the 3 to completely shut down by basic defensive play.

Not releasing anything until all heroes were equipped to deal with each other appropriately? I find that statement very strange considering Kensei was rendered pretty much obsolete even before Season 2 was released. Once the turtle meta went into full swing at mid to high level play the Kensei was among those heroes that were the least well equipped to deal with turtling.

Prior to Season 5 the Kensei was one of the worst equipped heroes in the entire game. The devs cannot afford to wait until they can update all 12 heroes at the same time, they had to start somewhere before their playerbase got fed up from a lack of development. It was only right that they started with some of the worst affected heroes.

Miadous
03-14-2018, 06:51 AM
I first heard "I-frames" from Dark Souls. You dodge at the right time, basically taking your character out of the plane of existence, becoming untouchable, causing whatever was about to hit you to go right through your character model. Kensei's dodge attack is just oozing with I-frames. Any attack, even area attacks, Kensei can just wait for you to attack then do his dodge attack. So unless you turtle against Kensei or fight one that falls for some feinting that you can trick, you'll probably lose the fight. If Kensei doesn't want to get hit, but still kill you, he can just abuse his dodge attack each time you try to do something. Also, I find that Conqueror now getting a free heavy attack just for blocking equally as silly.

Vakris_One
03-14-2018, 04:07 PM
I first heard "I-frames" from Dark Souls. You dodge at the right time, basically taking your character out of the plane of existence, becoming untouchable, causing whatever was about to hit you to go right through your character model. Kensei's dodge attack is just oozing with I-frames. Any attack, even area attacks, Kensei can just wait for you to attack then do his dodge attack. So unless you turtle against Kensei or fight one that falls for some feinting that you can trick, you'll probably lose the fight. If Kensei doesn't want to get hit, but still kill you, he can just abuse his dodge attack each time you try to do something. Also, I find that Conqueror now getting a free heavy attack just for blocking equally as silly.
Thanks for explaining. That sounds like how every dodge attack works by virtue of them being dodge attacks. I've seen characters from Lawbringer to Warlord who occassionally dodge so tightly that I can see my weapon actually phase through them just as their dodge animation plays. It happens from time to time but not very often as the timing required is very strict and most people would rather safely dodge out of the way rather than leave it to the very last possible milisecond - it's a thing that happens most often by luck rather than by intent.

I've not noticed the Kensei to have a particular "body phasing" advantage over other dodge attacks in this regard. If I can dodge attack a zone with Kensei I find I can do it with Orochi, Shaman and PK as well. The only advantage Kensei has is in the distance he travels compared to the shorter dodge attack animations of others.

Conq had a free heavy from shield bash before and a free GB from blocking heavies but yeah, his all block free heavy can be quite annoying to deal with now.

Veerdin-Wraith
03-14-2018, 05:31 PM
I'm also having a lot of issues combating the dodge attack from Kensei, and when I play Kensei, I find I can almost always cheese opponents by spamming it. The problems with it are threefold:

1) It's incredibly fast, meaning that even against certain light attacks, you can safely dodge and hit the enemy before they complete their attack.

2) It's super hard to counter considering how easy it is to pull off: You can't gaurdbreak it (which is the normal response to a dodge) because the attack hits you. You can't interrupt it easily because it's so fast and you can't dodge away from it because ???. The only reliable way to counter it is to bait it out with a feint and then parry it, and because it counts as a "heavy" attack, you only get rewarded with a light attack for parrying it.

3) It does pretty significant damage and is an opener for several chains, meaning a Kensei can dodge heavy the moment they see the opponent start an attack, get an easy hit, and then open it up into a chain. Rinse and repeat 3 or 4 times and you can easily kill pretty much anybody.

Once again, it's a problem of skill to execute vs skill to counter being very imbalanced: The dodge heavy is super easy to do, it's reliable, spammable, and can be used as a crutch with little to no effort. But actually countering it requires lightning-fast reflexes or the ability to properly feint-parry. Countering an attack like this should not take as much effort as it currently does.

XJadeDragoonX
03-14-2018, 05:55 PM
Even if you block the attack, he can go right into his overhead mixup. So let's say you block it, you still have a chance of getting hit with an unblockable top heavy, or a hyper armor light or heavy, or a regular light or heavy. Thats 5 things you need to watch out for after you blocked the attack. Plus he can soft feint into his guard break too. AND the attack comes in the opposite direction of the dodge. Thata very difficult for some players. Literally every other dash attack comes on the side of the dash so we, as players, are mentally trained to want to parry to that side. So fighting against the kensei works AGAINST our muscle memory. It is the best dash attack in the entire game by far. No other character has that kind of versatility after a single easy to do move. Like I've said over and over, it's low risk high reward.

You HAVE to parry it to be safe. Unlike all the others where blocking can save you. No other move IN THE GAME has to be parried to be safe. This one single moves carries so much damage momentum. Plus if an assassin gets hit, half the time your reflex guard won't even let you guard the top light after. It should be a light. I'm not saying remove it. I'm not saying nerf his combos. I'm just saying make it a light so it's risk is as high as it's reward.

Pk gets nothing off block.

Berserker gets nothing off block.

Valkyrie gets nothing off block.

Gladiator gets nothing off block.

Shaman can do a heavy with soft feint guard break options or hard feint options.

How do people defend this move? It's like people think he will be garbage without it. That thought in itself proves that it's too powerful if it's a make or break move. Just make it a light like almost every other side dash attack in the game.

Arekonator
03-14-2018, 06:44 PM
I'm also having a lot of issues combating the dodge attack from Kensei, and when I play Kensei, I find I can almost always cheese opponents by spamming it. The problems with it are threefold:

1) It's incredibly fast, meaning that even against certain light attacks, you can safely dodge and hit the enemy before they complete their attack.

2) It's super hard to counter considering how easy it is to pull off: You can't gaurdbreak it (which is the normal response to a dodge) because the attack hits you. You can't interrupt it easily because it's so fast and you can't dodge away from it because ???. The only reliable way to counter it is to bait it out with a feint and then parry it, and because it counts as a "heavy" attack, you only get rewarded with a light attack for parrying it.

3) It does pretty significant damage and is an opener for several chains, meaning a Kensei can dodge heavy the moment they see the opponent start an attack, get an easy hit, and then open it up into a chain. Rinse and repeat 3 or 4 times and you can easily kill pretty much anybody.

Once again, it's a problem of skill to execute vs skill to counter being very imbalanced: The dodge heavy is super easy to do, it's reliable, spammable, and can be used as a crutch with little to no effort. But actually countering it requires lightning-fast reflexes or the ability to properly feint-parry. Countering an attack like this should not take as much effort as it currently does.

I hope you are not serious.
Its the slowest dodge attack in the gane.
Countering it is pretty easy, especially if opponent is prone to spaming it. Feinting to bait out attacks to parry is really part of the base-level skillset, just above the basic controls. If this is problem for you, i have no idea how you handle any assassin.

Even if you block the attack, he can go right into his overhead mixup. So let's say you block it, you still have a chance of getting hit with an unblockable top heavy, or a hyper armor light or heavy, or a regular light or heavy. Thats 5 things you need to watch out for after you blocked the attack. Plus he can soft feint into his guard break too. AND the attack comes in the opposite direction of the dodge. Thata very difficult for some players. Literally every other dash attack comes on the side of the dash so we, as players, are mentally trained to want to parry to that side. So fighting against the kensei works AGAINST our muscle memory. It is the best dash attack in the entire game by far. No other character has that kind of versatility after a single easy to do move. Like I've said over and over, it's low risk high reward.

You HAVE to parry it to be safe. Unlike all the others where blocking can save you. No other move IN THE GAME has to be parried to be safe. This one single moves carries so much damage momentum. Plus if an assassin gets hit, half the time your reflex guard won't even let you guard the top light after. It should be a light. I'm not saying remove it. I'm not saying nerf his combos. I'm just saying make it a light so it's risk is as high as it's reward.

Pk gets nothing off block.

Berserker gets nothing off block.

Valkyrie gets nothing off block.

Gladiator gets nothing off block.

Shaman can do a heavy with soft feint guard break options or hard feint options.

How do people defend this move? It's like people think he will be garbage without it. That thought in itself proves that it's too powerful if it's a make or break move. Just make it a light like almost every other side dash attack in the game.

You know what the fun thing is? The dodge attack worked exactly the same as is now before the rework, it was just counting as light for parry purposes.
For attack this slow, losing 1/3rd of your health when it gets parried will mean its not worth using. You know, like it was before the rework.

Now some crazy thought for you: People are not defending it because kensei would be garbage without it, but because its not really that good to afford all this complaints.

Your comparsion is also pretty bad, you need to take more things into the account.
PK gets nothing off block but its lot faster and deals 50% more damage when it lands.
Berserker gets nothing off block but is faster, undodgeable and (i think, might be wrong) dodge-cancel it to avoid eating a parry.
Valkyrie is much faster, otherwise valk is pretty bad in general.
Gladiator is much faster while keeping same damage.
Shaman is much faster with same damage, flows into her unblockable finisher that can be canceled in three different ways.

Kensei mixup after and only heavy parry risk is what needed for the attack to not be ****, because its so slow. Because we know it used to be that way pre-S5.

Veerdin-Wraith
03-14-2018, 07:03 PM
I hope you are not serious.
Its the slowest dodge attack in the gane.
Countering it is pretty easy, especially if opponent is prone to spaming it. Feinting to bait out attacks to parry is really part of the base-level skillset, just above the basic controls. If this is problem for you, i have no idea how you handle any assassin.

Slowest dodge attack? Maybe. That doesn't make it any easier to contend with. I have a lot less trouble facing PKs and Orochi's dodge attacks than I do with Kensei. Why? No idea. Hell, maybe I'm just bad at the game, but I'd like to think that having played since closed beta would give me at least a bit of knowledge on the subject. Kensei's dodge attack seems to have something that other dodge attacks don't. Maybe it's the amount of damage you can get for it with very little effort. Maybe it's the wonky parry timing that seems very inconsistent for a heavy attack. Maybe it's the insane tracking that makes it seemingly impossible to dodge the damn thing, I don't know. But every time I face a Kensei lately, they do this move like clockwork and it always gets me, even when I try to feint-parry it.

HazelrahFirefly
03-14-2018, 08:20 PM
Its moments like these when I wonder if every one in a discussion is playing the same game.

Kensei's dodge attack is the slowest in the game?........... There might be data to back that up, but I call foul.

90% of the time I can react, REACT and dodge or block the dodge attacks of PK, Glad, Valk, Orochi, and even Shaman.

The Kensei's attack seems much, much faster then all of theirs, and I mean that with no hyperbole. I can't even begin to explain what is going on anymore. It's faster to my eyes, and has a vastly larger hitbox.

Arekonator
03-14-2018, 09:05 PM
.


.

All dodge attacks are technically either 500 or 600ms. Kensei is technically 600ms, but starts later in the dodge compared to others (extra 100 or 200ms, not sure, caused by the superior block portion of the dodge?).Glad and shaman got 500ms dodge attacks for same damage, compared to kensei who is in 700-800ms range.
Kensei attack comes from opposite direction which hampers the muscle memory.
But is verifiably slower than any other dodge attack in the game.
Also, its speed and damage is same for at least half year now (i dont quite remember when was the last time they buffed it) and NO ONE complained about it untill the rework, The parry reward was the only thing rework changed about it.

I dont know how else to put it, and i dont want to seem rude about it, but if kensei dodge attack gives you trouble while others dont, then the fault is entirely on your end. (or you exclusively played very laggy kenseis, but i somehow doubt that)

High-Horse
03-14-2018, 09:08 PM
I'd say it looks faster because more than half of the animation is the Kensei sidestepping, and then WHAM that Nodachi completes its movement in the last part of the whole animation.

Super easy to bait, just have to get used to the telegraph and the opposite side attack.

Veerdin-Wraith
03-15-2018, 01:02 AM
I think the telegraphing is my problem with it, along with the mixed up direction. But mostly the telegraphing. The fact that the Kensei's sword glows orange every time they dodge, regardless of if they follow through with the attack or not, really throws me off. It can be used as a feint all by itself! Because if you start to anticipate and try to parry an incoming strike that never shows up, you're open to attack, whereas if you try to counter the dodge and it turns out to be an attack, you get hit by the dodge heavy and almost certainly get followed up with a chain.

Easy to bait? Sure, I can accept that. But that only works if you're facing a defensive Kensei. Against an aggressive one? Chances are you're not going to get a chance to bait.

Simply put, if you can get the Kensei to react to your actions, you can bait them into a parry. But if you're the one doing the reacting, you're suddenly at a major disadvantage because of how unpredictable the Kensei is now. And that is my overall problem with the rework. The dodge heavy is just a part of it, their entire moveset right now is focused around being as hard to read and hard to predict as possible. Kensei now favours offensive play so heavily that they can out-offense a lot of other characters.

And once again, we come to the fact of risk vs reward. Skill to perform vs skill to counter: The dodge heavy is an easy move. It's super easy to pull off, very reliable, has great tracking and is super versatile. However, in order to counter it reliably, you need to either play several moves in advance and bait the Kensei into a parry (which isn't guaranteed) or contend with a move that's very tricky to defend against. Performing the move is easy and reliable, countering it is difficult and risky, therefore it becomes a crutch move that rewards players for performing a low-risk attack that has a high reward.

After all, what's the worst that can happen to you during the dodge heavy? I've never been guard-broken while performing it, nor have I ever managed to gaurdbreak a Kensei who was using it, so the normal reaction to a dodge seems to be a no-go. Dodging the attack itself isn't reliable, either, because the hitbox tracking is insane! I've literally double-dodged as a Shinobi and still been caught by the Kensei's dodge heavy. It's not like you can interrupt it, either, because it counts as a dodge, unless you're free-aiming or very, very good at timing, then you're not going to hit the Kensei when they attack with the dodge heavy. Your only real recourse is to parry it, and even if you can do that, all you get rewarded with is one free light attack because it counts as a heavy - And that's it! No gaurdbreak, no heavy attack, nothing that can't be easily recovered for the Kensei.

Too much reward for too little risk, and too much effort is required to counter it considering how easy it is to perform. That's my standpoint on it.

Arekonator
03-15-2018, 02:15 AM
Sorry, but I simply dont see how its "too much effort" to defend against. Or how its too little risk. Dodging it is pretty much same as dodging anything else, if you have trouble with it, ask a friend for 10 minutes training session to help you get the timing down. If he is using it to punish you for attacks then its easy to bait it out, if you are the one reacting and he is throwing them out willy-nilly then its more or less easiest parry you can get.
I dont think its low risk-high rewars. It nets him 20 dmg which flows into his mixup. If he gets parried, he takes on average between 15 to 25 dmg which may or may not be chained further, depending on who he verses. Vs specific heroes, he can take 50 or more damage from it still. Seems pretty fair to me, what more would you want? It used to grant light parry reward not so long ago and it was laughauble how much punishing it was.
I agree with you that risk-reward needs to be balanced, but this is most definitelly not the case.

HazelrahFirefly
03-16-2018, 02:28 AM
I don't... I cant even... Whut?

Turns out one of my characters has a specifically easy time against Kensei: the Shaman. I can only assume its the lack of commitment to her attacks? I was even deflecting left and right, including the dodge attack and feinted side light, something I haven't been able to do with the by-comparison-molasses Orochi.

I'm convinced more than ever that its a matter of heroes not yet being tweaked, it would explain why my Shaman, HL, and PK can do all right (not that the PK has been tweaked but, you know...she's crazy)

Knight_Raime
03-16-2018, 12:40 PM
I think the telegraphing is my problem with it, along with the mixed up direction. But mostly the telegraphing. The fact that the Kensei's sword glows orange every time they dodge, regardless of if they follow through with the attack or not, really throws me off. It can be used as a feint all by itself! Because if you start to anticipate and try to parry an incoming strike that never shows up, you're open to attack, whereas if you try to counter the dodge and it turns out to be an attack, you get hit by the dodge heavy and almost certainly get followed up with a chain.

Easy to bait? Sure, I can accept that. But that only works if you're facing a defensive Kensei. Against an aggressive one? Chances are you're not going to get a chance to bait.

Simply put, if you can get the Kensei to react to your actions, you can bait them into a parry. But if you're the one doing the reacting, you're suddenly at a major disadvantage because of how unpredictable the Kensei is now. And that is my overall problem with the rework. The dodge heavy is just a part of it, their entire moveset right now is focused around being as hard to read and hard to predict as possible. Kensei now favours offensive play so heavily that they can out-offense a lot of other characters.

And once again, we come to the fact of risk vs reward. Skill to perform vs skill to counter: The dodge heavy is an easy move. It's super easy to pull off, very reliable, has great tracking and is super versatile. However, in order to counter it reliably, you need to either play several moves in advance and bait the Kensei into a parry (which isn't guaranteed) or contend with a move that's very tricky to defend against. Performing the move is easy and reliable, countering it is difficult and risky, therefore it becomes a crutch move that rewards players for performing a low-risk attack that has a high reward.

After all, what's the worst that can happen to you during the dodge heavy? I've never been guard-broken while performing it, nor have I ever managed to gaurdbreak a Kensei who was using it, so the normal reaction to a dodge seems to be a no-go. Dodging the attack itself isn't reliable, either, because the hitbox tracking is insane! I've literally double-dodged as a Shinobi and still been caught by the Kensei's dodge heavy. It's not like you can interrupt it, either, because it counts as a dodge, unless you're free-aiming or very, very good at timing, then you're not going to hit the Kensei when they attack with the dodge heavy. Your only real recourse is to parry it, and even if you can do that, all you get rewarded with is one free light attack because it counts as a heavy - And that's it! No gaurdbreak, no heavy attack, nothing that can't be easily recovered for the Kensei.

Too much reward for too little risk, and too much effort is required to counter it considering how easy it is to perform. That's my standpoint on it.

"but if you're the one doing the reacting you're suddenlt at a major disadvantage because of how unpredicatble the kensi is now..."
I mean. the point of his rework was to give him more flexibility to be less predictable. Not that your statement is a true one anyway. any hero with a 500ms dodge recovery can dodge the heavy start up of top heavy neutral and avoid anything the kensei soft feints into. and heros with 600ms dodge recovery can dodge all the same but the light soft cancel.

You don't have to react to anything because you can stand there and block all but the pommel or the unblockable. and the unblockable only comes from some specific situations:
~after helm splitter which is dash forward light into heavy. The light has to confirm. if it's blocked it's a no go.
~After a throw from his GB. Which is only guaranteed if a splat happens or he throws the person to the ground while they're OOS.
~if a swift strike (dodge heavy) is blocked or lands.
~Any combo that has a heavy finisher. ex H>H>H.

And his pommel can only come from the heavy neutral. Which has no tracking in any direction. and can be stuffed with a light on reaction. and is beat by any dodge bash or attack.

Kensei has a dodge recovery of 700ms. the longer he waits to initate the attack the more likely he'll be GBed for free. activating it late has minimal benefits in most situations. and if you activate it on reaction you'll likely just be feint baited into a parry. If the heavy manages to land you get the equivalent to a heavy parry. Which is honestly not much damage.

I've fought plenty of aggressive swift strike kensei. and I consistently parry it. So either i'm a lot better than I think I am skill wise or you happen to be a lot worse than you think you might be.
Dodge attacks shouldn't grant a high reward when punished period regardless of who is doing the attack. It's a simple move. an easily baited move. You shouldn't be getting massive damage from it.

All i'm getting from your standpoint is you're reaction time and or reading skills are pretty awful. It's a highly telegraphed move that is pretty dang slow. In most circumstances it is only good for beating out people who just throw out random mix ups as fast as possible. in it's best case it counters HL's kick/toss mix up. (which isn't a big deal in it of itself for several reasons.)

Honestly Kensei's best "dodge" tool is his forward dash. Because it has a superior block on it that will guarantee you a free GB. Which is strong because that's not really a thing that is possible for most heros these days. Even more strong considering kensei gets his 45 damage heavy on a splat. Once the community actually gets good enough to use that tool reliably you'll actually have a reason to fear kensei.

XJadeDragoonX
03-16-2018, 01:29 PM
It isn't that safe. And it isn't slow. When I use kensei, I just do it while people start lights and it hits every time. Im under rep one with kensei but I'm level like 16 or 17. I've had the side dash move parried literally twice... Ever. And it's because I just threw it out to throw it out. I always do it in the middle of people doing stuff and I just whiff right through their attacks. And nobody ever has guard broken me during it either. Even though they've tried

Knight_Raime
03-16-2018, 02:04 PM
It isn't that safe. And it isn't slow. When I use kensei, I just do it while people start lights and it hits every time. Im under rep one with kensei but I'm level like 16 or 17. I've had the side dash move parried literally twice... Ever. And it's because I just threw it out to throw it out. I always do it in the middle of people doing stuff and I just whiff right through their attacks. And nobody ever has guard broken me during it either. Even though they've tried

You're likely fighting people who have no clue on what they're doing. Raw lights should never be a thing unless you're some certain heros and you know the opponent is just going to sit there.
Regardless. The moment I saw you using it on reaction i'd just bait you into a parry. Kensei using the swift strike on reaction only works against stupid play or people who don't use their mix ups right. (swift strike does beat some mix ups out right. But not many.) It's at least a 700ms move combined with the dodge. it. is. slow.

Vakris_One
03-16-2018, 03:44 PM
It isn't that safe. And it isn't slow. When I use kensei, I just do it while people start lights and it hits every time. Im under rep one with kensei but I'm level like 16 or 17. I've had the side dash move parried literally twice... Ever. And it's because I just threw it out to throw it out. I always do it in the middle of people doing stuff and I just whiff right through their attacks. And nobody ever has guard broken me during it either. Even though they've tried
Consider that at overall rep 17 you are still a relatively new player and unless you have a 90% win rate in Duels the people in your matchmaking pool will be relatively new players who don't know what to do against Kensei. You are seeing the noob stomper effect that Kensei has always had at the lower end of the skill spectrum.

Mid to high tier nobody in their right mind throws out a series of lights against a dodge happy Kensei. The only times you'll be landing a swift strike is against a successfully predicted unblockable bash that cannot be soft feinted.

XJadeDragoonX
03-16-2018, 04:51 PM
Consider that at overall rep 17 you are still a relatively new player and unless you have a 90% win rate in Duels the people in your matchmaking pool will be relatively new players who don't know what to do against Kensei. You are seeing the noob stomper effect that Kensei has always had at the lower end of the skill spectrum.

Mid to high tier nobody in their right mind throws out a series of lights against a dodge happy Kensei. The only times you'll be landing a swift strike is against a successfully predicted unblockable bash that cannot be soft feinted.

Not to be rude, but I'm not overall rep 17. I'm rep 53. My name on here isn't my psn username. I'm diamond in ranked duels. And I also checked your tracking and I have a higher fighter score than you. Also have a better k/d than you with the same win/loss. You also have somehow killed literally 10 times more minions than me and double the bots lol. You're a kensei main with 10 days played on he character. So I understand your defense of the character and I applaud your passion for it. But fhtracker honestly is a load of hooplah.

But I did notice you play on pc. Which makes sense. Things are significantly easier to parry on pc so that's where there is a disconnect between us. All of my points are relevant to console. Not PC. So whereas it may be easy on pc, it isn't on console.

HazelrahFirefly
03-16-2018, 09:46 PM
I'm curious....

I watched several FH vids daily from multiple youtubers, and I've never seen a single person gb the Kensei out of their dodge.

Anyone know of a video where it happens? Even if you record yourself that would be great. I'm not calling out here, I'm hoping to see it to understand the timing. As much as I can kill them with my Shaman, I tried to gb the dodge this morning and had zero success.

Devils-_-legacy
03-16-2018, 11:03 PM
You have to be very close to the kensie to pull it off I've only done 2 or 3 times

RenegadeTX2000
03-16-2018, 11:45 PM
Not to be rude, but I'm not overall rep 17. I'm rep 53. My name on here isn't my psn username. I'm diamond in ranked duels. And I also checked your tracking and I have a higher fighter score than you. Also have a better k/d than you with the same win/loss. You also have somehow killed literally 10 times more minions than me and double the bots lol. You're a kensei main with 10 days played on he character. So I understand your defense of the character and I applaud your passion for it. But fhtracker honestly is a load of hooplah.

But I did notice you play on pc. Which makes sense. Things are significantly easier to parry on pc so that's where there is a disconnect between us. All of my points are relevant to console. Not PC. So whereas it may be easy on pc, it isn't on console.

What's your psn? we might have played

XJadeDragoonX
03-17-2018, 12:11 AM
What's your psn? we might have played

XSnipeSoldierX

Vakris_One
03-17-2018, 12:57 AM
Not to be rude, but I'm not overall rep 17. I'm rep 53. My name on here isn't my psn username. I'm diamond in ranked duels. And I also checked your tracking and I have a higher fighter score than you. Also have a better k/d than you with the same win/loss. You also have somehow killed literally 10 times more minions than me and double the bots lol. You're a kensei main with 10 days played on he character. So I understand your defense of the character and I applaud your passion for it. But fhtracker honestly is a load of hooplah.

But I did notice you play on pc. Which makes sense. Things are significantly easier to parry on pc so that's where there is a disconnect between us. All of my points are relevant to console. Not PC. So whereas it may be easy on pc, it isn't on console.
Um... okay..? Why exactly did you get triggered?

I didn't look you up on FHTracker dude calm down, FHTracker scores mean nothing to me. I went off purely from what you yourself wrote:


Im under rep one with kensei but I'm level like 16 or 17.

When you write, "I'm level 16 or 17" I took that to mean that you are overall rep 16 or 17. Reading it again I understand you meant your level with Kensei so it was my mistake.

Spare me the whole pre-pubescant e-peen measuring dude, I don't care about stats. I play for fun not to try hard or artificially pump up my FHTracker score so I can lord it over some randoms on the internet. If that's how your ego works fine, it doesn't change the fact you have difficulties with a basic move that most people learn to counter within the first 6 hours of playing the game on any platform. Crying "but I'm on console!" has been a lame excuse ever since we got video examples of high tier console players parrying 400ms lights so yeah, but nah.

Kelson27
03-17-2018, 01:23 AM
I'm curious....

I watched several FH vids daily from multiple youtubers, and I've never seen a single person gb the Kensei out of their dodge.

Anyone know of a video where it happens? Even if you record yourself that would be great. I'm not calling out here, I'm hoping to see it to understand the timing. As much as I can kill them with my Shaman, I tried to gb the dodge this morning and had zero success.

Yep Iím in the same boat, I can gb assassins all day then Kensei... I bounce off continuously. Never seen anyone in game pull it off.

Kelson27
03-17-2018, 01:24 AM
Um... okay..? Why exactly did you get triggered?

I didn't look you up on FHTracker dude calm down, FHTracker scores mean nothing to me. I went off purely from what you yourself wrote:



When you write, "I'm level 16 or 17" I took that to mean that you are overall rep 16 or 17. Reading it again I understand you meant your level with Kensei so it was my mistake.

Spare me the whole pre-pubescant e-peen measuring dude, I don't care about stats. I play for fun not to try hard or artificially pump up my FHTracker score so I can lord it over some randoms on the internet. If that's how your ego works fine, it doesn't change the fact you have difficulties with a basic move that most people learn to counter within the first 6 hours of playing the game on any platform. Crying "but I'm on console!" has been a lame excuse ever since we got video examples of high tier console players parrying 400ms lights so yeah, but nah.

Sorry whoís triggered?

Vakris_One
03-17-2018, 01:43 AM
Sorry whoís triggered?
The one with ... the trigger?

XJadeDragoonX
03-17-2018, 02:00 AM
The one with ... the trigger?

I totally wasn't triggered lol. I was just expressing my opinion and comparing my stats to yours to yours in a non aggressive manner

I even said that fhtracker is hooplah in my post. I just thought you had looked up my username here and maybe saw someone a lower level and base your opinion off that.

However, console and PC are in fact different. Sorry if that upsets you. And I'm not a crybaby in any sense. I best kenseis all day every day. I can also parry lights. I'm just expressing my opinion on a move that I feel is overturned currently in a really civil matter. It seems your upset. If you'd like to settle it, idk if you have console as well, but if you do, add me and I'd be happy to shove your own head up your *** in some duels 🤷

Vakris_One
03-17-2018, 04:01 AM
I totally wasn't triggered lol. I was just expressing my opinion and comparing my stats to yours to yours in a non aggressive manner

I even said that fhtracker is hooplah in my post. I just thought you had looked up my username here and maybe saw someone a lower level and base your opinion off that.

However, console and PC are in fact different. Sorry if that upsets you. And I'm not a crybaby in any sense. I best kenseis all day every day. I can also parry lights. I'm just expressing my opinion on a move that I feel is overturned currently in a really civil matter. It seems your upset. If you'd like to settle it, idk if you have console as well, but if you do, add me and I'd be happy to shove your own head up your *** in some duels 🤷
You are a funny one. You bring up FHTracker all on your own without prompting from me and start to measure yourself up to me using the stats on something you apparently think is "hooplah" but at the same time you use it to puff up your chest at me. Interesting logic that. And now you come at me with the tired old "fight me bro" cliche, lol. Of the two of us, you sound like you're the one that is upset.

My dude, even if we were on the same platform I wouldn't care to play with you because from how you behave on here I can only assume that you're the type to turn super toxic if I beat you.

Thanks for the laughs man. Have a good one ;)

XJadeDragoonX
03-17-2018, 04:40 AM
The one with ... the trigger?


You are a funny one. You bring up FHTracker all on your own without prompting from me and start to measure yourself up to me using the stats on something you apparently think is "hooplah" but at the same time you use it to puff up your chest at me. Interesting logic that. And now you come at me with the tired old "fight me bro" cliche, lol. Of the two of us, you sound like you're the one that is upset.

My dude, even if we were on the same platform I wouldn't care to play with you because from how you behave on here I can only assume that you're the type to turn super toxic if I beat you.

Thanks for the laughs man. Have a good one ;)

I'm confused because I show everyone on here respect. I tell them I respect their opinion even when I disagree. I only brought up the tracker because I thought you had used it to look up an account that wasn't me. And I didn't use it to puff up my chest. If anything, it shows we are on a comparable level in terms of skill. And I'm the most non toxic player you'll ever face on for honor. I never message anyone after a match. I always say good fight. Even when I lose. I don't mind losing. I just want this game to be the best it can be. But I respond to people's comments with the same energy. My original reponse to you in which i mentioned fhtracker wasn't rude in any way. I was super calm and just defended what I thought you were saying in a completely respectful way. And then you responded with hostility when i wasnt hostile. You assumed I was triggered which is nonsense lol. But I'll gladly be hostile in response to you. I won't because you're clearly an idiot and aren't capable of having a conversation without taking things the wrong way. But whatever. Not my problem. Anyway.





Kensei dash attack should be a light. The game shouldn't be balanced around PC because PC barely has any players when compared to console players. So if both PC and console are gonna have identical settings with attack speeds etc, it should be balanced with console as priority. Like it always has

Vakris_One
03-17-2018, 05:59 AM
I'm confused because I show everyone on here respect. I tell them I respect their opinion even when I disagree. I only brought up the tracker because I thought you had used it to look up an account that wasn't me. And I didn't use it to puff up my chest. If anything, it shows we are on a comparable level in terms of skill. And I'm the most non toxic player you'll ever face on for honor. I never message anyone after a match. I always say good fight. Even when I lose. I don't mind losing. I just want this game to be the best it can be. But I respond to people's comments with the same energy. My original reponse to you in which i mentioned fhtracker wasn't rude in any way. I was super calm and just defended what I thought you were saying in a completely respectful way. And then you responded with hostility when i wasnt hostile. You assumed I was triggered which is nonsense lol. But I'll gladly be hostile in response to you. I won't because you're clearly an idiot and aren't capable of having a conversation without taking things the wrong way. But whatever. Not my problem. Anyway.
Well you've already been hostille towards me now twice so it's a little late to say "I won't". The only reason I'm coming back to straighten this out is because I have noticed that you're not usually hostile towards others without a reason so then I will have to look at my end of this to see where things went wrong.

I reacted sharply to your initial post because of the way you brought up FHTracker scores into the discussion out of nowhere and worded it as if you were placing importance on statistics to try and make a point. Intent is kind of hard to discern on the Internet where there is no body language to work of off. I assumed wrongly and for that I apologise. It all started to snowball from there and I am sorry for causing that by mistakenly assuming ill intent.



Kensei dash attack should be a light. The game shouldn't be balanced around PC because PC barely has any players when compared to console players. So if both PC and console are gonna have identical settings with attack speeds etc, it should be balanced with console as priority. Like it always has
A light parry punish is too much of a punishment for such a telegraphed move. It was the original reason why pre-Season 5 Kensei rarely if ever used their swift strikes. Unless the move is sped up considerably giving it light attack properties is not justified in my opinion.

I can see why the devs would balance it around PC since the game is technically played at its highest level on PC because of the hardware performance and thus it is more appealing to the competitive scene. However I can also see why it feels unfair and even unkind to console players who are the bigger playerbase. The core issue is the 30 FPS disparity between PC and console because For Honor's gameplay is very dependant on reaction and timings. On console the reaction speeds can be reduced somewhat by having a wired internet, wired controller and switching on gaming mode on your TV or using a monitor.

If the game were to be balanced around console then the game on PC would become parry city with an almighty turtle meta. No amount of fenagling with input/output devices would offer even a semblance of relief from that. In the end console players have at least some options available to them to help get a better experience whereas on PC if light attacks were slowed down while light parries still give heavies the notion of a light attack would go the way of the Dodo.

XJadeDragoonX
03-17-2018, 02:06 PM
I accept your apology. And I apologize as well.



From what I've heard from YouTubers who play on both, there's instantly a difference from going from console to pc. It's way smoother and parrying is easier. For instance, when I play against bots, I can parry lights easily because there's no connectivity there. But against players, it's more difficult. But I think that has more to do with lag compensation at this point in time. pc the fps can somewhat compensate.

Another point I would like to make is the raider. Stunning tap is his bread and butter very similar to kenseis dash attacks. Stunning tap is a light and much easier to parry than kensei. And stunning tab is essentially the same in terms of potential. You can feint a heavy into a stunning tap. Unblockable into stunning tap. And if it lands, you can heavy. You can soft feint into another stunning tap. You can light. Or you can unblockable. You have a lot of options out of it, but to compensate sate for how good it is, it's a light. And it's not even really a reliable dodge.

HazelrahFirefly
03-17-2018, 09:06 PM
A friend and I did a bunch of testing with the Kensei's Dodge attack and it definitely is "broken."

That is, depending on what you consider a bad design. You CANNOT react to seeing the dodge and GB him out of it. We tried, even knowing that it was coming, and the only way to gb the dodge attack is to predict it and gb early.

Now, while I'm irritated, to call it broken ia obviously subjective. Part of fighting is being able to predict what your opponent will do... its just ultra annoying in this game at times lol.

Mirage6201
03-17-2018, 10:28 PM
should b a light now that he got buffed

Arekonator
03-17-2018, 10:54 PM
It was light till now. It was hot garbage,

Mirage6201
03-18-2018, 03:14 AM
then his Iframes need to take a hit

Tyrjo
03-18-2018, 08:23 AM
Dodge heavys are powerful as hell now after the parry changes. They have every benefit of a dodge attack but can only be punished with a light if you parry. Make them all "dodge light" attacks.

TontonPanda
08-01-2018, 11:17 AM
Did we have any Ubisodt responses about a futur fixe of this borken dodge attack ? If you guys made some test, just send them

Vakris_One
08-01-2018, 12:02 PM
Is it really necessary to necro a long dead thread cos you don't know what broken means? This thread was wrong back when it was first posted and it's still wrong now.

Check out the testing I did:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8DcfhGJxIeA

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H_RjQp6rUk0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_GTNVz5UpU

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FDtS3it6olg

/thread.

SpaceJim12
08-01-2018, 12:16 PM
Again people complaing about Kensei dodge attack. Yes, it's strong move. But only in a right hands. Nowadays, if you see Kensei who always try to dodge heavy, just bite him there and punish. And if he will continue, you could do the same again and again.=)
I'm afraid that Tiandi will be nightmare for you. Dodge attack, that could be feinted to another dodge attack/light/kick...

Once I met a Kensei, who just do this move again and again. Even without visible reason. I just stand there, wait my stamina goes up, and he just "Swift Strike, fool!" and I was like "Wait, what?" than parried, than killed him. =_=

I curious, why people never complaing about pommel strike, that is way harder to bite or predict.

Awlkara
08-01-2018, 01:35 PM
Again people complaing about Kensei dodge attack. Yes, it's strong move. But only in a right hands. Nowadays, if you see Kensei who always try to dodge heavy, just bite him there and punish. And if he will continue, you could do the same again and again.=)
I'm afraid that Tiandi will be nightmare for you. Dodge attack, that could be feinted to another dodge attack/light/kick...

Once I met a Kensei, who just do this move again and again. Even without visible reason. I just stand there, wait my stamina goes up, and he just "Swift Strike, fool!" and I was like "Wait, what?" than parried, than killed him. =_=

I curious, why people never complaing about pommel strike, that is way harder to bite or predict.

The thing I really hate, is that if I prefer to dodge his attack and counter, he just has armored lights.

I'm okay with armor but armored lights are the dumbest thing ever.

He has an answer to all counter play against him.

SpaceJim12
08-01-2018, 02:15 PM
He has an answer to all counter play against him.

Let's just hope, that every hero will has it.=)

Vakris_One
08-01-2018, 02:33 PM
The thing I really hate, is that if I prefer to dodge his attack and counter, he just has armored lights.

I'm okay with armor but armored lights are the dumbest thing ever.

He has an answer to all counter play against him.
You say that like you don't have the same ability to answer him with counterplay for every single thing that he does. If you're not using a character with hyper armour then don't answer his dodge attack with a dodge attack. Parry it instead. Simple. Pommel strike? Light attack him out of his slow top heavy windup and you'll also stuff him out of any soft feint that he may try to attempt from his top heavy from neutral.

Heavy finisher mixup? Be patient and wait to react to what he does. Get used to the timing of when he can no longer feint out of the top unblockable and you'll be able to parry it confidently without wondering if he'll soft feint it. The key thing about fighting a Kensei is being patient and not reacting too early. If you're impatient or go full aggro then you're just playing to his strengths.

Awlkara
08-01-2018, 02:57 PM
Let's just hope, that every hero will has it.=)
I hope so as well, just not with armored lights.

You say that like you don't have the same ability to answer him with counterplay for every single thing that he does. If you're not using a character with hyper armour then don't answer his dodge attack with a dodge attack. Parry it instead. Simple. Pommel strike? Light attack him out of his slow top heavy windup and you'll also stuff him out of any soft feint that he may try to attempt from his top heavy from neutral.

Heavy finisher mixup? Be patient and wait to react to what he does. Get used to the timing of when he can no longer feint out of the top unblockable and you'll be able to parry it confidently without wondering if he'll soft feint it. The key thing about fighting a Kensei is being patient and not reacting too early. If you're impatient or go full aggro then you're just playing to his strengths.

So the answer is turtling? I thought we were trying to avoid that meta.

If facing a hero and the only way to beat him is to wait for him to do anything then that is a problem.

Vakris_One
08-01-2018, 04:11 PM
I hope so as well, just not with armored lights.


So the answer is turtling? I thought we were trying to avoid that meta.

If facing a hero and the only way to beat him is to wait for him to do anything then that is a problem.
It's not turtling. Turtling involves sitting there and doing nothing, never even risking an attack and that's the exact reason Kensei got given the pommel strike, to force a reaction. Being patient and not reacting too soon is not turtling. It's remaining cool under pressure and maintaining control of the fight moment by moment rather than launching attacks brazenly without consideration as to your opponent's counterplay.

Kensei's soft feint options thrive on encouraging his opponent to react too soon and thus react incorrectly. If you maintain the presence of mind to calmly react to his soft feints then you are that much more likely to shut a Kensei down completely. That doesn't mean never attacking, as I already said one of best ways to shut Kensei out of his pommel strike mixup is to stuff him out of it with any 500ms light attack on reaction to his top heavy from neutral. What I am saying is you have to be aware of what you can safely punish with an attack and what you cannot - like answering his dodge attack with a dodge attack is not safe unless you have hyper armour and can trade with him.

A Zerker for example can definitely go full aggro on a dodge happy Kensei and come out the winner. It's also about knowing your hero's strengths and how that matchup plays against your opponent's hero. If you're used to fighting against quicker heroes for example and thus reacting instantly as soon as you see an indicator flash then a Kensei with his slower soft feints will eat you alive unless you settle down and pay proper attention to his soft feints.

Vakris_One
08-01-2018, 04:17 PM
I actually covered this in your thread where you asked for tips and advice on how to fight against Kensei.

https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1910797-Kensei?p=13600180

SpaceJim12
08-01-2018, 05:11 PM
So the answer is turtling? I thought we were trying to avoid that meta.

If facing a hero and the only way to beat him is to wait for him to do anything then that is a problem.

I thought, that Kensei rework made him OP, but than I played him for three reps, and now I have two things: understanding of his weaknesses, and understanding why he really needs his rework. If being honest, I think for now Kensei is a only char, who have all he need after rework. No more, No less.
After season 5 I honestly played almost every char in a roster for couple reps, and change a lot of my minds about OP/UP chars.=)

pennywise83
08-01-2018, 05:33 PM
Everyone here Instead complaining about the kensei, should just start playing one to rep5 at least. Just to learn how to deal with it and after that, maybe complain about it. kensei needs room to move, feints and soft cancels drains a lot of stamina. In tight spaces the kensei is a free meal.