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Knight_Raime
03-12-2018, 05:47 AM
Excuse the rude-ish title but I wanted to use something that would grab peoples attention. Personally i've gotten fed up with how many posts or threads (not just here) claiming how trashy Orochi is. And coming up with insane buff ideas. Or just plain wrong ones -cough- tozens kick -cough- So I decided I would write up a thread on how to play Orochi "properly." In order to play him properly you must first understand what the Orochi is. A counter attacker. He's not an aggressor. He doesn't seek to open up a player. He has tools to properly chunk health in quick and decisive blows. He's very much a living version of Aramusha's blade blockade. Meaning his moves are meant for specific situations.
So instead of writing a guide i'm simply going to tell you what his tools are for:

Double top light:
Is your bread and butter move. It has decent range. decent speed. and alright damage. You use this to apply pressure. To bait feints.
To whiff punish. To beat raw bashes. the list goes on. If all else fails this is his most consistent way of punishing you and staying in your face.

Side lights/zone:
Both perform the same function. they exist as random throws on already conditioned enemies. Someone constantly blocking top but not falling for your feint baits?
Zone. someone wise to blocking the side hit after your double top light? zone. Someone eyeing for your zone but blocking your top lights? opposite side light (from your non zone side.)

Dash lights:
These are your defacto counters to other dodge attacks. See a pk begin to back dash? zeypher strike. See a kensei going for his new spoopy leg swift strike? dodge light.
They also work against raw bash unblockables like top light does.

Riptide strike:
Is your optimal punish tool on high recovery attacks. Things like another orochi's riptide, chain finishers like a warden letting his his top heavy finisher rip.
It's risky but it can be used against some mix ups. like if a bushi hidden stance feinted something and then let an attack rip from HS.

Storm rush:
Alternate tool to punishing whiffs AND high recovery attacks. You can even zone after it if the opponents guard was up top when you hit them with SR as the stun puts heros in a high recovery state.
It guarantees double top light in most instances. and can be soft feinted into a GB if you were cheeky enough to use it after a non high recovery move.

Heavies:
Are your primary method of punishes after a parry or baiting someone with top feint. top heavy on light parry. and side heavies are used in some max OOS punishes.

Deflects:
Are your secondary method of punishing with the potential of eeking out more damage.
See due to orochi's swiftness he can GB or double light after most things he does which keeps enemies on their toes and potentially get more damage.
Just wind gust a light? quickly follow with double top light. If that lands next time you wind gust go for a GB.
Hurricane blast is orochi's ultimate risky tool and his best mind game mix up. It has armor. does I believe 40 damage. If the person attempts to dodge you can soft cancel it into a GB for a top heavy. or if they're going to attack you anyway but you won't survive the hit soft cancel into wind gust. Maybe they got really lucky on a read and attempt to roll away. dash out of it and storm rush that sucker.

The important thing to understand is that some of Orochi's tools over lap on what they can potentially do. Meaning a sign of a good Orochi is not only someone who understands the role of his moves in his kit. But can comfortably use different tools to accomplish the same task so the opponent has a much harder time answering the Orochi. Now. Even after all of this i'm not saying he's perfect as is. He can and should see some changes. just like every other hero. But he's not in a dire state. The devs are already on a good track with the top light damage nerf and buffing riptides damage. Honestly I just feel like people don't get what Orochi really is. And claim he's bad because he's predictable. When really Orochi is only predictable because the person playing as him is playing that way.

mrmistark
03-12-2018, 06:10 AM
100% agree. Myself and a couple of others have been saying this for quite a while.

Storm rush guarantees double top light afterwords for over 50 damage (56 I believe) and can be used EASILY as a quick dodge on any attack honestly.

Predictability is the killer of all orochis. They all play the same, trying to force thier way all up in your face when Orochi as a character prefers a little breathing room for that backward dodge into Storm rush or a dodge attack.

Honestly the biggest complainers seem to be those who canít deflect anything but the slowest of heavies.

Tyrjo
03-12-2018, 07:57 AM
Well said. Orochi is very hard to play right. Every now and then you face an Orochi who has bothered to learn the entire cast and how to play against them. You're up for a nightmare.

Most players play him like he's an Aramusha...

CandleInTheDark
03-12-2018, 03:55 PM
I've been saying this since season 1 and have been backed since by Roman's statement that he is a burst damage character and by how Hhhmmmm did in the Hero Series against some of the top however much percent globally, when people actually use him as a counter attacker, he is much better than people think.

The problem is that a lot of people want the narrative to be how poor he is and how he needs openers so they won't listen to that, or will dismiss it as style points as opposed to if they are going to give a character high burst damage then it needs to not be as safe to pull off, he has the tools to melt half of your bar whether through storm rush double top lights, deflects or riptide strike guardbreak top heavy and they absolutely should be risky and punishable if missed.I don't think any counter attacker should have safe openers, including peacekeeper, it is why I have called for a rework since very early on.

I was going to work on Lawbringer and Centurion to finish my knights to rep 7 but since Orochi is the one assassin or even assassin hybrid I have no reps in (and that bugs my OCD every time I go over him in character select) I am going to at least get to purple armour in him through counter attacking play and given I have found level three bots easier than with the other two since I put in hours there before taking a character into pvp I was set to work on I am pretty confident that that will turn out well.

Okita_Soji..
03-12-2018, 04:19 PM
The issues with riptide are well known. It's not cancelable, it doesn't retreat far enough to not get hit, when you get hit starting it it's cancelled, the timing of the retreat and then the attack is wonky. Storm rush is decent and I use it a lot but it can only be cancelled in the first 1 or 2 steps, very predictable as you retreat and set it up, again doesn't retreat far enough to not get hit during start up. When it does land it does good damage but you need someone to commit to an attack. The top light after can be stopped if their guard was on top as you hit the storm rush. Deflects have been plagued by the connection issue of p2p since the start but now that servers are in and when lag comp comes to play things could be different. Deflects stopping chains need to be remedied in his rework. Orochi really needs people to attack and commit to attacks to really shine. Right not everyone is heavy feinting and throwing a lot of UB's. It's as if people at my level just started learning this all of a sudden because it wasn't a thing that long ago, only ran into few people that played like this. His dash attack has good tracking but is very telegraphed as well.

PDXGorechild
03-12-2018, 04:27 PM
Yeah, nice post, needed to be said. Orochi is a bit lacking when you compare him to some of the newer classes, but in season 1 Orochi and Nobushi were all I ever saw. He was one of the best classes back then in the right hands, and is still pretty well equipped character imo.

I think the problem is that Orochi seems to attract a lot of "Uber 1337 gamerz" who are about 12, and think they're a pro ninja. I imagine a lot of them switched to Shinobi in season two, but it's the same people that only camp and snipe in FPS games. The same people that rolled a Night Elf Rogue on WoW. The same people that go on Minecraft after they rage quit when they lose because they aren't playing their class properly on For Honor. And hence the same people that come and cry on the forums.

Can you sticky this Ubi in the hope that people stop making buff Orochi threads every single day?

Tyrjo
03-12-2018, 04:31 PM
The same people that rolled a Night Elf Rogue on WoW.

I'm so offended. Night Elf Rogue was my day 1 vanilla main. :o

Card1acArrest
03-12-2018, 04:41 PM
Good one, a few comments:

I saw Riptide recommended as a better dodge attack counter than your own dodge attack. (that very nice Orochi guide with the japanese music in the background and the whispery voice). (The exampel was Kensei dodge attack). You then punish with a 40 damage heavy instead of a side light. I dont know if a Zerk dodge attack or Shaman attack would not track you too much, but I reckon not. Maybe we can say that Ripide should preferably be used vs non-cancellable attacks? Or heavy attacks committed. I dont quite know if some heavy attacks are so slow that you (always) can use it without Risk. To me it feels like it is more or less always a risk using it vs feintable heavy attacks.

Storm Rush is really powerful in the sense it allows you to create a potential for high damage, if your opponent gives you a split second opening. I would recommend to always revert to Storm Rush starting position to create the necessary distance and to create that potential. Also, for 4v4, it is also extremely fast in terms of covering ground and staggering any of 1-2-3 opponents within its range and dealing both your damage and your friend's damage to that target.

Forward dash light. This will hit ANYTHING that moves, rolls, dodges, whatnot! It is very powerful to punish a retreating character relentlessly. (with caution :)). It also got very nice range. The afore mentioned guide also advise to try a GB at forward dash from time to time, as it can have a surprising effect or get dodging (far away) people GBed.

Let me also add that the Orochi is incredible nimble in terms of dodge attacks also compared to a class like VAlkyrie, which is pretty quick on her feet. (Try vs a Shaman level 3 bot and the difference is noteable). So i think we can say his nimbleness adds a lot of power to this class, but it it is a bit difficult to quantify really in terms of "power".

HazelrahFirefly
03-12-2018, 08:28 PM
Orochi is one of the two heroes I have won a tournament with, and I have this to add:

He can be used far more offensively then many give him credit for. The lights and heavies both from neutral are great for interrupting when you attack reactively. I like to delay between strikes just a little and continually stutter aggressive opponents.

Storm Rush does need a tweak, and that tweak is to be able to change the direction you hit. Just like with the Shaman's jump, Oro should be able to select after he lurches back. I suppose this might make it quite powerful, so a trade-off would be to have a blocked SR make the Oro lose a hefty amount of stamina.

DoodTheMan
03-12-2018, 08:53 PM
Is there anything in this game more satisfying than dodging a move while landing a hit with Riptide Strike?

CandleInTheDark
03-12-2018, 09:05 PM
Is there anything in this game more satisfying than dodging a move while landing a hit with Riptide Strike?

Riptide strike being the execute, or leading to gb, top heavy, execute.

UbiInsulin
03-12-2018, 09:18 PM
Excuse the rude-ish title but I wanted to use something that would grab peoples attention.

Some call it flamebait, others call it "writing good copy." :p

The detailed situational advice is very much appreciated, Raime.

Baturai
03-12-2018, 11:22 PM
I really wanna punch this guy in the face right now ;)
Orochi is fine the way he is ?
yeah maybe when he had a Vanguard Assasinguard at the sametime ... Because the only way to win duels with Orochi is Hard Turtle and Parry or Deflect.
in a duel, you should be able to mix your Options. If you just keep focusing on Parry an Opponent, you are a Food.
aswell as Deflect . or Riptide.

Every Experienced Opponent i've Faced with my Orochi. Turtle alot more , i mean why now ? their Tool is safe for that and they know you are limited. so why should a Lion chase after a Cat ? :rolleyes:
The Options Orochi has are very limited, I always force my Opponent to Attack so i can Predict deflect or Parry. But its ******* Risky. and Stamina consuming.
Orochi is Easy to Play but very Hard to Master Hero.



whats your rep on Orochi ? you seem to be a another butthurt Orochi hater. which caused his Nerfs during All the Seasons.
You make a Huge Thread for the Easiest Punisable hero after Valk in The game lol.

Accept it or Not.

The WAY OROCHI IS RIGHT NOW, IS T R A S H he has more disadvantages compared to Others.

You can hard Turtle with Assassin Guard ( :rolleyes:) , and call it i am a "Master" Orochi But the fact that Orochi is Trash Doesnt change.

Any Experienced player knows that.

FatFreeIce
03-13-2018, 12:13 AM
Odd thread. Yeh orochi can be good but about 80% of what you said is good about orochi requires you to turtle. That I believe is what most have a problem with. His offensive ability is really lacking. It's the same it's always been, top light/zone. Only difference top light is weaker now. I like orochi. I think he is the most "pure" character on the roster. If someone wins with orochi he was better than you. Can't blame any of what he did on cheese/cheap tactics because he doesn't have any. Compared to most other characters he is extremely weak, an orochi is required to have a much higher skill ability than most others so a Battle between two equally skilled players and one is playing orochi, orochi loses.

Arekonator
03-13-2018, 12:56 AM
To whiff punish. To beat raw bashes. the list goes on. If all else fails this is his most consistent way of punishing you and staying in your face.

Side lights/zone:
Both perform the same function. they exist as random throws on already conditioned enemies. Someone constantly blocking top but not falling for your feint baits?
Zone. someone wise to blocking the side hit after your double top light? zone. Someone eyeing for your zone but blocking your top lights? opposite side light (from your non zone side.)


I am not saying you are wrong, because you are not, but i got to point out aganist this specifically. Bear in mind that this is my personal experience, anecdotal evidence and your mileage may vary.
But when i see orochi throw random side light as a surprise tool, doesnt matter the situation, it gets parried about 80% of a time. It just got weird combination of being relatively slow, and clear readable animation that says "this is 100% comitted attack and you are free to parry it". IMO, because of the animation itself, even if you sped up all his lights up to 500ms it will still be easy to parry and will not help him much, if at all,

With riptide and storm rush, you are indeed correct, catch is, you need to perfectly know your matchup and exactly know which attack is punishable and which isnt etc. Not that requiering precise matchup knowledge is a bad thing, it just makes him harder to use compared to some others.

Imo, as some already pointed out, its that just whole concept of Orochi.that is at fault. He is an assassin... that lacks offensive options and needs to be played very reactively. Why would you play assassin if you wanted to turtle? Instead of playing any of the dedicated turtle heroes. It just feels wrong.Its counter-intuitive.
And to top that out, there are some questionable decisions in his numbers. Compare top and side heavy. Side heavy is 100ms slower AND deals 5 less damage then corresponding top heavy. Just, why? Why would you ever use it, except from attempts at being "unpredictable"?

I dont think he is WEAK weak, but he is definitely pulled down by conflicting design choices behind him.

CandleInTheDark
03-13-2018, 01:41 AM
Imo, as some already pointed out, its that just whole concept of Orochi.that is at fault. He is an assassin... that lacks offensive options and needs to be played very reactively. Why would you play assassin if you wanted to turtle? Instead of playing any of the dedicated turtle heroes. It just feels wrong.Its counter-intuitive.


Here is the issue I take with this line of argument, yes he is an assassin,he is also a counter attacker.

Now assassins can obviously take many forms, going by the original three, berserker is all about in your face damage and has the tools for that,peacekeeper is also a counterattacker but an counterattacker done wrong in that she can overwhelm opponents with quick offence rather than relyon her counterattacking bleed kit, orochi is actually where the peacekeeper should have been, able to use his kit in such a way that his best form of offence is to read his opponent and punish them with a burst of damage that melts away half to three quarters of their bar. Yeah people are going to call it turtling, but ubisoft, by the devs' own words, were looking for a burst damage character and the thing with burst damage is you do not make that safe or risk free.

Like I said in this thread, I have picked him up today, I also mostly 4v4 but I have taken him into duel as well because that is the best way to test my point. I have seen so many orochi try to use storm rush and riptide strike as openers that it is painful because they obviously aren't openers, they are the tools to punish the opponent on a read and open up a huge burst of damage. I'm only just really getting to grips with him in duel but my last against a highlander very much backs my point. First round, I tested his reflexes to the dodge attacks, he can deal with them well so those become a tool to shut down offensive stance,I get a few double top lights in. I feint storm rush a few times, this baits a heavy, guardbreak as I had just feinted stormrush so couldn't go back into it in time, top heavy, then a storm rush,execute.

Second round, he is looking to get into offensive stance, I shut that down either with dodge forward or if I had gone back into storm rush setup, the storm rush, one gets through, he blocks double top but goes for a heavy and eats another storm rush, he goes for the kick, eats a riptide, execute.

Third round I got greedy, tried to force the issue,get shut down hard.

Fourth round,again, I am feinting heavies, feinting storm rush, he goes for a shot, eats a guardbreak heavy,goes into offensive stance, eats a dodge light,we trade a few,he eats a stormrush, execute 3-1.

Now what I was doing could very well have been called turtling, but I stayed mobile and it didn't feel like I was standing there baiting parries, I was staying active and punishing any misplaced attack. By no means am I saying orochi doesn't need any changes, but given people have dismissed what I put into practice as 'style points' when I have debated that in the past, at least some part of it is on his mains wanting a burst damage character to not have to rely on his burst damage but on 'safe openers' which honestly he should not have any more than the peacekeeper should be able to ignore her own it in favour of lights.

LEGENDz_31
03-13-2018, 03:44 AM
I really wanna punch this guy in the face right now ;)
Orochi is fine the way he is ?
yeah maybe when he had a Vanguard Assasinguard at the sametime ... Because the only way to win duels with Orochi is Hard Turtle and Parry or Deflect.
in a duel, you should be able to mix your Options. If you just keep focusing on Parry an Opponent, you are a Food.
aswell as Deflect . or Riptide.

Every Experienced Opponent i've Faced with my Orochi. Turtle alot more , i mean why now ? their Tool is safe for that and they know you are limited. so why should a Lion chase after a Cat ? :rolleyes:
The Options Orochi has are very limited, I always force my Opponent to Attack so i can Predict deflect or Parry. But its ******* Risky. and Stamina consuming.
Orochi is Easy to Play but very Hard to Master Hero.



whats your rep on Orochi ? you seem to be a another butthurt Orochi hater. which caused his Nerfs during All the Seasons.
You make a Huge Thread for the Easiest Punisable hero after Valk in The game lol.

Accept it or Not.

The WAY OROCHI IS RIGHT NOW, IS T R A S H he has more disadvantages compared to Others.

You can hard Turtle with Assassin Guard ( :rolleyes:) , and call it i am a "Master" Orochi But the fact that Orochi is Trash Doesnt change.

Any Experienced player knows that.


This guy is 100% right. Good players just turtle with top guard. Side lights are parry bait. If you are a good player riptide is a joke. If you have any kind of fake out game the orochi would be crazy to pop it. Canít deflect more and more charecters because they will just spam threw with hyper armor. No OOS punish at all against a player that can cgb and block.

Donít get me wrong as a 45 rep Orochi I can win against a lot of players but when I play people that are skilled I do feel that I am at a disadvantage.

P.s. reflex guard is annoying.

Hormly
03-13-2018, 05:15 AM
Orochi is the easiest opponent for me by a mile. Fighting one after fighting a gladiator is laughable in how clearly defining it is of the leap between OG and DLC

Devils-_-legacy
03-13-2018, 06:11 AM
I agree a good player using orochi can be a challenging opponent but that doesn't mean his kit is on a good place

Tobias96716
03-13-2018, 06:52 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/Tobias/status/834066396447281152

That video is from the of the glory days of the Orochi....I really miss those days....My Orochi was a savage...

CandleInTheDark
03-13-2018, 11:14 AM
I agree a good player using orochi can be a challenging opponent but that doesn't mean his kit is on a good place

The thing is people are asking for the wrong things, they are telling the devs they want safe openers, so let's assume they get an opener that 90% of the time lets them access their burst damage, which again is what the character is all about, they would be able to melt away half to three quarters of an enemy's health pretty much at will and that is not a healthy state for the game.

Yes some moves could be more viable, but they should not be made safe openers, being able to get into that burst damage without first having to read the opponent and take advantage of that changes the whole concept of the character. Counter attackers should not get 100% safe openers and if a character's mains try to use his counter attacking moves as openers then of course they are going to be punished for that.

Knight_Raime
03-13-2018, 11:16 AM
The issues with riptide are well known. It's not cancelable, it doesn't retreat far enough to not get hit, when you get hit starting it it's cancelled, the timing of the retreat and then the attack is wonky. Storm rush is decent and I use it a lot but it can only be cancelled in the first 1 or 2 steps, very predictable as you retreat and set it up, again doesn't retreat far enough to not get hit during start up. When it does land it does good damage but you need someone to commit to an attack. The top light after can be stopped if their guard was on top as you hit the storm rush. Deflects have been plagued by the connection issue of p2p since the start but now that servers are in and when lag comp comes to play things could be different. Deflects stopping chains need to be remedied in his rework. Orochi really needs people to attack and commit to attacks to really shine. Right not everyone is heavy feinting and throwing a lot of UB's. It's as if people at my level just started learning this all of a sudden because it wasn't a thing that long ago, only ran into few people that played like this. His dash attack has good tracking but is very telegraphed as well.

Right as I said i'm not saying he's perfect. he can be buffed. but basically every move sans his side light is pretty usable.

Knight_Raime
03-13-2018, 11:18 AM
Yeah, nice post, needed to be said. Orochi is a bit lacking when you compare him to some of the newer classes, but in season 1 Orochi and Nobushi were all I ever saw. He was one of the best classes back then in the right hands, and is still pretty well equipped character imo.

I think the problem is that Orochi seems to attract a lot of "Uber 1337 gamerz" who are about 12, and think they're a pro ninja. I imagine a lot of them switched to Shinobi in season two, but it's the same people that only camp and snipe in FPS games. The same people that rolled a Night Elf Rogue on WoW. The same people that go on Minecraft after they rage quit when they lose because they aren't playing their class properly on For Honor. And hence the same people that come and cry on the forums.

Can you sticky this Ubi in the hope that people stop making buff Orochi threads every single day?

mm. I wouldn't say it's sticky worthy. And I don't want people to be discouraged from making threads. Just wish people would put a bit more effort into their suggestions.

Knight_Raime
03-13-2018, 11:22 AM
I really wanna punch this guy in the face right now ;)
Orochi is fine the way he is ?
yeah maybe when he had a Vanguard Assasinguard at the sametime ... Because the only way to win duels with Orochi is Hard Turtle and Parry or Deflect.
in a duel, you should be able to mix your Options. If you just keep focusing on Parry an Opponent, you are a Food.
aswell as Deflect . or Riptide.

Every Experienced Opponent i've Faced with my Orochi. Turtle alot more , i mean why now ? their Tool is safe for that and they know you are limited. so why should a Lion chase after a Cat ? :rolleyes:
The Options Orochi has are very limited, I always force my Opponent to Attack so i can Predict deflect or Parry. But its ******* Risky. and Stamina consuming.
Orochi is Easy to Play but very Hard to Master Hero.



whats your rep on Orochi ? you seem to be a another butthurt Orochi hater. which caused his Nerfs during All the Seasons.
You make a Huge Thread for the Easiest Punisable hero after Valk in The game lol.

Accept it or Not.

The WAY OROCHI IS RIGHT NOW, IS T R A S H he has more disadvantages compared to Others.

You can hard Turtle with Assassin Guard ( :rolleyes:) , and call it i am a "Master" Orochi But the fact that Orochi is Trash Doesnt change.

Any Experienced player knows that.

Never said he was fine as is. Pretty sure I mentioned he can and should receive buffs.
I only contested that he wasn't garbage like common belief.

My rep with him is 2. Almost 3. But I played Orochi exclusively in both beta's. and a ton in custom games with friends. Not like my rep matters anyway.
I don't see how anything i've said indicates i'm butthurt. Considering the attitude from this post that can be inffered from you.

The rest of your response is empirical statements over facts and strawmanning. This will be my first and only reply to you considering i've seen how you behave in other threads. good day.

Knight_Raime
03-13-2018, 11:24 AM
Odd thread. Yeh orochi can be good but about 80% of what you said is good about orochi requires you to turtle. That I believe is what most have a problem with. His offensive ability is really lacking. It's the same it's always been, top light/zone. Only difference top light is weaker now. I like orochi. I think he is the most "pure" character on the roster. If someone wins with orochi he was better than you. Can't blame any of what he did on cheese/cheap tactics because he doesn't have any. Compared to most other characters he is extremely weak, an orochi is required to have a much higher skill ability than most others so a Battle between two equally skilled players and one is playing orochi, orochi loses.

Yes Orochi demands more out of a player than some heros. I don't think that in itself is a problem.
and yeah he kind of does turtle. because he's a counter attacker.
People want him to be something he's not.

As I mentioned i'm not opposed to him being buffed.

Knight_Raime
03-13-2018, 11:26 AM
I am not saying you are wrong, because you are not, but i got to point out aganist this specifically. Bear in mind that this is my personal experience, anecdotal evidence and your mileage may vary.
But when i see orochi throw random side light as a surprise tool, doesnt matter the situation, it gets parried about 80% of a time. It just got weird combination of being relatively slow, and clear readable animation that says "this is 100% comitted attack and you are free to parry it". IMO, because of the animation itself, even if you sped up all his lights up to 500ms it will still be easy to parry and will not help him much, if at all,

With riptide and storm rush, you are indeed correct, catch is, you need to perfectly know your matchup and exactly know which attack is punishable and which isnt etc. Not that requiering precise matchup knowledge is a bad thing, it just makes him harder to use compared to some others.

Imo, as some already pointed out, its that just whole concept of Orochi.that is at fault. He is an assassin... that lacks offensive options and needs to be played very reactively. Why would you play assassin if you wanted to turtle? Instead of playing any of the dedicated turtle heroes. It just feels wrong.Its counter-intuitive.
And to top that out, there are some questionable decisions in his numbers. Compare top and side heavy. Side heavy is 100ms slower AND deals 5 less damage then corresponding top heavy. Just, why? Why would you ever use it, except from attempts at being "unpredictable"?

I dont think he is WEAK weak, but he is definitely pulled down by conflicting design choices behind him.

Assassins don't inherently mean aggressive.
I agree his side light is probably the weakest thing in his kit. But I don't think speeding it up and/or buffing it's damage would be the right solution either.
I'm still working on my rep grind. maybe i'll come up with a solution to it.

Knight_Raime
03-13-2018, 11:28 AM
This guy is 100% right. Good players just turtle with top guard. Side lights are parry bait. If you are a good player riptide is a joke. If you have any kind of fake out game the orochi would be crazy to pop it. Canít deflect more and more charecters because they will just spam threw with hyper armor. No OOS punish at all against a player that can cgb and block.

Donít get me wrong as a 45 rep Orochi I can win against a lot of players but when I play people that are skilled I do feel that I am at a disadvantage.

P.s. reflex guard is annoying.

If you're going to make absolute statements like him i've no reason to actually entertain a discussion with you.

Knight_Raime
03-13-2018, 11:29 AM
I agree a good player using orochi can be a challenging opponent but that doesn't mean his kit is on a good place

Never agreed that his kit was in a good spot. Just contesting that he's garbage. because he's only like 4-5 tweaks away from being fine.

SuguruMisato
03-13-2018, 12:53 PM
Ok, I'm gonna be serious for a moment... As everytime I was talking about Orochi in different places, I was just told to git gud, so I'm just flat bored and exhausted on talking and falling on deaf ears...

Instead of thinkin in 1 dimension, like "I PLAY Orochi that way, so it means YOU must be bad or not use proper technics" - compare Orochi to Berserker or Shaman... They are both assassins and they can easily defend themselves when ganked... But once Orochi gets a second assailant on him, he's just dead.

Shaman and berserker both have moves that can easily get them out of clashes or fend offenders off a bit - like the spin-to-win bersekrer move or shaman's INSANE dodge capabilities (dunno if it's ms based, but she can parry or dodge moves with such ease, that it feels almost impossible)...

And now Orochi - if there are more than 2 enemies on Orochi - good luck. He isn't as quick as shaman nor does he have any move that can fend off attackers. Orochi's zone attack is somewhat usable, but it takes little to no damage and it leaves him vulnerable after the end animation... Berserker can continuously go with his axes after the spin, shaman can just fly around the enemies with ease and Orochi can just simply die or run like hell...

Orochi has too many vulnerabilities compared to other assassins and his sword feels ultra sluggish compared to what was previously... The most irritating thing is when you see other characters heavy attacks landing before your light attacks... I don't know what to say anymore about Orochi, because I feel like I've said everything eveyrwhere and nobody's listening, just telling me to git gud...

Played Orochi since Closed Alpha and he was much better compared to his current state...

CandleInTheDark
03-13-2018, 01:01 PM
Ok, I'm gonna be serious for a moment... As everytime I was talking about Orochi in different places, I was just told to git gud, so I'm just flat bored and exhausted on talking and falling on deaf ears...

Instead of thinkin in 1 dimension, like "I PLAY Orochi that way, so it means YOU must be bad or not use proper technics" - compare Orochi to Berserker or Shaman... They are both assassins and they can easily defend themselves when ganked... But once Orochi gets a second assailant on him, he's just dead.

Shaman and berserker both have moves that can easily get them out of clashes or fend offenders off a bit - like the spin-to-win bersekrer move or shaman's INSANE dodge capabilities (dunno if it's ms based, but she can parry or dodge moves with such ease, that it feels almost impossible)...

And now Orochi - if there are more than 2 enemies on Orochi - good luck. He isn't as quick as shaman nor does he have any move that can fend off attackers. Orochi's zone attack is somewhat usable, but it takes little to no damage and it leaves him vulnerable after the end animation... Berserker can continuously go with his axes after the spin, shaman can just fly around the enemies with ease and Orochi can just simply die or run like hell...

Orochi has too many vulnerabilities compared to other assassins and his sword feels ultra sluggish compared to what was previously... The most irritating thing is when you see other characters heavy attacks landing before your light attacks... I don't know what to say anymore about Orochi, because I feel like I've said everything eveyrwhere and nobody's listening, just telling me to git gud...

Played Orochi since Closed Alpha and he was much better compared to his current state...

No one is saying he doesn't need changes of some sort, it is just most people wanting a buff are also people who feel that they should have a means of bypassing that he is a burst character in nature. Essentially they want another peacekeeper who speaking as someone who had her as his first main (I play way too many to call any a main now) they got wrong because she could ignore her kit all together in favour of lights, or those safe openers people are demanding to have on a counter attacker.

Tecknoterrorist
03-13-2018, 01:16 PM
Im sad to say you, orochi is the easyest class i ever play. I read this thread and i tryed orochi. I just spam top and i kill all my enemies with 2 hit. I just feint top into double top or feint top to top, or again feint top to zone. Some time i used dodge attack and gb with again top.. yes orochi need rework but because is easy to use. He are the most fast hero of the game and do a tons of damage just with top. And this is why 40% of the players use it, is the most used hero of the game and not because is hard to play but completly the opposit.

SuguruMisato
03-13-2018, 01:42 PM
What? In English please.

LEGENDz_31
03-13-2018, 01:47 PM
If you're going to make absolute statements like him i've no reason to actually entertain a discussion with you.

Where did I say a absolute statement that we canít discuss? I did say that I do agree with his points 100% (not the attitude)but thatís my opinion. I say this with respect but I find it interesting that all the guys who are saying that Orochi is not far off compared to other characters are new to him. Is it possible that at rep 2-3 you may not have played enough time or good players to really see his short comings? Beta orochi is not the orochi we have now. I know I am rep 3 on Shinobi and although I have a basic understanding of his kit I would by no means say I know the ins and outs of the character.

Other charecters can attack at all angles we canít against good players. Side lights are as slow as some heavies. Our reflex guard will show us move guard to the right spot but the delay causes us to be hit by the attack. We are a counter attacker that good players simply wonít attack because they know we have no way to attack them if they hold top guard. I can bait someone into a attack, back step and Storm rush right as soon as the the swing missís and they can still react in time to block it.

You say we are 4-5 moves away from being on par with other characters. I agree with that but those 4-5 moves are huge and hopefully will be the big difference from the ďtrash tierĒ we are now to viable against any class.

Again all respect buddy just giving my two cents.

wolfman25br
03-13-2018, 02:32 PM
Knight has brought us valuable points, the screaming for the buff is out of focus. But im afraid I disagree with some conclusions

It is important to point out that there are good orochi, and Yes, they can be effective, but for this you a year worth of training is required, perfecting and knowing every aspect of the other characters to countteract, and do absolutely zero mistakes. ( one light parry and his is done against some heros)

Many are asking openers, but he should not have any of that, saying that I think the tools he current has are still insufficient (in number and quality) to be an effective counter attacker.

Deflect is still too risky to be worth committing to Riptide cant be feinted, and still be gb or whiif punished.

As I said before I would like to see him with a bigger options to play for bait / faint / punish.

What pains me is exactly that to be a competitive orochi, you need tons of experience, to be unforeseeable, do not make any mistakes. It's a quite stressful. kkk

As I said before I would like to see him with a bigger options to play for bait / feint / punish.

Exaggerating a little , you have to be god to win with Orochi, or just choose Shaman (insert others)...

CandleInTheDark
03-13-2018, 02:37 PM
I say this with respect but I find it interesting that all the guys who are saying that Orochi is not far off compared to other characters are new to him. Is it possible that at rep 2-3 you may not have played enough time or good players to really see his short comings?

Mmk, on orochi itself fair point

But

Out of 55 rep points I have 26 on pure assassin characters,a further 14 are in hybrids who are part assassin (so 40 all in all,my others are 7 in warden and conqueror and 1 in kensei all of which I use dodge whiff punishes as I do my assassins). The only other hero with any assassin to them that I have not touched yet is the centurion. I also have a good few hours practisicing against level 3 bots with orochi, I have always intended to use him but not until I was ready to commit to putting a rep point in him (aforementioned ocd). 9 of my rep points are in peacekeeper and I very much believe that she is a counter attacker done wrong, have been calling for a rework to lessen her light spam since season 1 and don't want to see the orochi whose concept is sound but needs a little more viability turn into a second peacekeeper.

I have always been fully up front in that I am not high rank enough the turtle meta applies as much outside of when players hit critical health, but I have in duels with orochi over the last day done pretty well against people who are ranked as higher than my skill level, maybe part of this is I am using the orochi in means that they are not used to. My last battle, I got away with using storm rush and riptide until my opponent was in critical but whereas he had an answer for forward dash before that point, he was finished by that in each round, so different options do differently in different times. Also one thing I always link back to is Hhhmmm in the season 3 hero series launch, he showed that orochi is viable in high levels and that he is able to use his whole kit,essentially he lost to out of lock exploits and a fall over bug that was no part of what he or his opponent did and he landed every move in the orochi kit.

Yes I know that compared to others he needs work,never once said that isn't true, but I don't think he needs the work a lot of mains who want storm rush and riptide strike to be openers say he does, because used right, those are the first blows to chains that take away half the bar and a reward that high should come as a result of reading and outplaying your opponent, not because you were first to press that button.

LEGENDz_31
03-13-2018, 02:59 PM
Mmk, on orochi itself fair point

But

Out of 55 rep points I have 26 on pure assassin characters,a further 14 are in hybrids who are part assassin (so 40 all in all,my others are 7 in warden and conqueror and 1 in kensei allof which I use dodge whiff punishes as I do my assassins). The only other hero with any assassin to them that I have not touched yet is the centurion. 9 of my rep points are in peacekeeper and I very much believe that she is a counter attacker done wrong, have been calling for a rework to lessen her light spam since season 1 and don't want to see the orochi whose concept is sound but needs a little more viability turn into a second peacekeeper.

I have always been fully up front in that I am not high rank enough the turtle meta applies as much outside of when players hit critical health, but I have in duels with orochi over the last day done pretty well against people who are ranked as higher than my skill level, maybe part of this is I am using the orochi in means that they are not used to. My last battle, I got away with using storm rush and riptide until my opponent was in critical but whereas he had an answer for forward dash before that point, he was finished by that in each round, so different options do differently in different times. Also one thing I always link back to is Hhhmmm in the season 3 hero series launch, he showed that orochi is viable in high levels and that he is able to use his whole kit,essentially he lost to out of lock exploits and a fall over bug that was no part of what he or his opponent did and he landed every move in the orochi kit.

Yes I know that compared to others he needs work,never once said that isn't true, but I don't think he needs the work a lot of mains who want storm rush and riptide strike to be openers say he does, because used right, those are the first blows to chains that takeaway half the bar and .a reward that high should come as a result of reading and outplaying your opponent.

I really donít think we are as far off on our opinions as it may sound in this thread. Iím not sure a opener is the answer as well. In fact I hate the direction all the charecters are going with hyper armor and unblockables. In the beginning of the game they had classís have a more define pros and cons but now they are making all the rework and new class have everything while still limiting us on top heavy and zone. Making side lights more viable would go a long way to help on its own. I would like deflect, being that it is a hard skill, cancel out a chains (with hyper armor) like parry does. Give us some way to have a chance(small chance even) to live while getting ganked. That would go a long way to help.

I respect everyoneís opinion on the forums especially you candle. Orochi is my baby and my baby needs help :)

XJadeDragoonX
03-13-2018, 03:16 PM
The orochi doesn't need much. The problem is everyone has unblockable and that's all anyone on here cares about so they can gang rape people in 4v4. Just make it so his heavy deflect can be activated at any time the same way the gladiators unblockable works. Let it be feintable. Bam. Perfect. No need to thank me.

CandleInTheDark
03-13-2018, 03:19 PM
I really don’t think we are as far off on our opinions as it may sound in this thread. I’m not sure a opener is the answer as well. In fact I hate the direction all the charecters are going with hyper armor and unblockables. In the beginning of the game they had class’s have a more define pros and cons but now they are making all the rework and new class have everything while still limiting us on top heavy and zone. Making side lights more viable would go a long way to help on its own. I would like deflect, being that it is a hard skill, cancel out a chains (with hyper armor) like parry does. Give us some way to have a chance(small chance even) to live while getting ganked. That would go a long way to help.

I respect everyone’s opinion on the forums especially you candle. Orochi is my baby and my baby needs help :)

Yeah 4v4 I am finding harder, so certainly I can see where changes like that would do well on a 4v4 standing, it is a matter of whether the devs feel stopping hyperarmour would be balanced in duel but since they have several times buffed deflect and are hinting that is where they see him doing damage, it isn't something I would think unreasonable either. Like you say I don't think we are far away, my primary concern is not changing the whole playstyle of the orochi and not turning him into a character that can just ignore the primary purpose of his kit like the peacekeeper can ignore her bleed kit as her lights are more viable.

I like all of the assassins and intend to put time into all of the characters as a whole (4v4 pug player being well rounded in my roster in top gear was higher priority) so certainly I want them all in a healthy place, it is why I have never called for nerfs or overreacted to any buffs

Devils-_-legacy
03-13-2018, 03:37 PM
Ive got to admit I didn't see some of the "buffs" people suggested like a safe opener I really don't agree with them that would kinda ruin orochi for me tbh but my bad candel and knight I thought you 2 where trying to say he's didn't need any tweeks or buffs I can't wait for his rebalance/rework I stopped using him back in s2 give me a reason to pick him up again

CandleInTheDark
03-13-2018, 03:52 PM
Ive got to admit I didn't see some of the "buffs" people suggested like a safe opener I really don't agree with them that would kinda ruin orochi for me tbh but my bad candel and knight I thought you 2 where trying to say he's didn't need any tweeks or buffs I can't wait for his rebalance/rework I stopped using him back in s2 give me a reason to pick him up again

I want all the characters to be viable and have their individual playstyle, I am just opinionated enough in some things that sometimes that doesn't come across lol so no worries from my end.

UbiJurassic
03-13-2018, 06:53 PM
Excuse the rude-ish title but I wanted to use something that would grab peoples attention. Personally i've gotten fed up with how many posts or threads (not just here) claiming how trashy Orochi is. And coming up with insane buff ideas. Or just plain wrong ones -cough- tozens kick -cough- So I decided I would write up a thread on how to play Orochi "properly." In order to play him properly you must first understand what the Orochi is. A counter attacker. He's not an aggressor. He doesn't seek to open up a player. He has tools to properly chunk health in quick and decisive blows. He's very much a living version of Aramusha's blade blockade. Meaning his moves are meant for specific situations.
So instead of writing a guide i'm simply going to tell you what his tools are for:

Double top light:
Is your bread and butter move. It has decent range. decent speed. and alright damage. You use this to apply pressure. To bait feints.
To whiff punish. To beat raw bashes. the list goes on. If all else fails this is his most consistent way of punishing you and staying in your face.

Side lights/zone:
Both perform the same function. they exist as random throws on already conditioned enemies. Someone constantly blocking top but not falling for your feint baits?
Zone. someone wise to blocking the side hit after your double top light? zone. Someone eyeing for your zone but blocking your top lights? opposite side light (from your non zone side.)

Dash lights:
These are your defacto counters to other dodge attacks. See a pk begin to back dash? zeypher strike. See a kensei going for his new spoopy leg swift strike? dodge light.
They also work against raw bash unblockables like top light does.

Riptide strike:
Is your optimal punish tool on high recovery attacks. Things like another orochi's riptide, chain finishers like a warden letting his his top heavy finisher rip.
It's risky but it can be used against some mix ups. like if a bushi hidden stance feinted something and then let an attack rip from HS.

Storm rush:
Alternate tool to punishing whiffs AND high recovery attacks. You can even zone after it if the opponents guard was up top when you hit them with SR as the stun puts heros in a high recovery state.
It guarantees double top light in most instances. and can be soft feinted into a GB if you were cheeky enough to use it after a non high recovery move.

Heavies:
Are your primary method of punishes after a parry or baiting someone with top feint. top heavy on light parry. and side heavies are used in some max OOS punishes.

Deflects:
Are your secondary method of punishing with the potential of eeking out more damage.
See due to orochi's swiftness he can GB or double light after most things he does which keeps enemies on their toes and potentially get more damage.
Just wind gust a light? quickly follow with double top light. If that lands next time you wind gust go for a GB.
Hurricane blast is orochi's ultimate risky tool and his best mind game mix up. It has armor. does I believe 40 damage. If the person attempts to dodge you can soft cancel it into a GB for a top heavy. or if they're going to attack you anyway but you won't survive the hit soft cancel into wind gust. Maybe they got really lucky on a read and attempt to roll away. dash out of it and storm rush that sucker.

The important thing to understand is that some of Orochi's tools over lap on what they can potentially do. Meaning a sign of a good Orochi is not only someone who understands the role of his moves in his kit. But can comfortably use different tools to accomplish the same task so the opponent has a much harder time answering the Orochi. Now. Even after all of this i'm not saying he's perfect as is. He can and should see some changes. just like every other hero. But he's not in a dire state. The devs are already on a good track with the top light damage nerf and buffing riptides damage. Honestly I just feel like people don't get what Orochi really is. And claim he's bad because he's predictable. When really Orochi is only predictable because the person playing as him is playing that way.

Excellent guide, Knight_Raime! I've been picking up Orochi more recently and it's nice to see some of the things I might be doing right and a lot of the things I'm doing wrong. :p

Knight_Raime
03-13-2018, 07:36 PM
Im sad to say you, orochi is the easyest class i ever play. I read this thread and i tryed orochi. I just spam top and i kill all my enemies with 2 hit. I just feint top into double top or feint top to top, or again feint top to zone. Some time i used dodge attack and gb with again top.. yes orochi need rework but because is easy to use. He are the most fast hero of the game and do a tons of damage just with top. And this is why 40% of the players use it, is the most used hero of the game and not because is hard to play but completly the opposit.

His top lights were nerfed. they're 22 damage. it's not tons of damage.
And if your opponents were dying to just that they're not good opponents.

Knight_Raime
03-13-2018, 07:43 PM
Where did I say a absolute statement that we canít discuss? I did say that I do agree with his points 100% (not the attitude)but thatís my opinion. I say this with respect but I find it interesting that all the guys who are saying that Orochi is not far off compared to other characters are new to him. Is it possible that at rep 2-3 you may not have played enough time or good players to really see his short comings? Beta orochi is not the orochi we have now. I know I am rep 3 on Shinobi and although I have a basic understanding of his kit I would by no means say I know the ins and outs of the character.

Other charecters can attack at all angles we canít against good players. Side lights are as slow as some heavies. Our reflex guard will show us move guard to the right spot but the delay causes us to be hit by the attack. We are a counter attacker that good players simply wonít attack because they know we have no way to attack them if they hold top guard. I can bait someone into a attack, back step and Storm rush right as soon as the the swing missís and they can still react in time to block it.

You say we are 4-5 moves away from being on par with other characters. I agree with that but those 4-5 moves are huge and hopefully will be the big difference from the ďtrash tierĒ we are now to viable against any class.

Again all respect buddy just giving my two cents.

Since beta to now orochi hasn't received many changes.
I'm hardly new. No time spent in customs is recorded. Further more i've been dueling pretty much exclusively since launch on more than just one hero.
So the rep for any hero I have isn't going to be insanely high. But if you want to attempt to write off my points over something as irrelevant as rep then by all means go ahead and leave the thread.

I react and block just fine with reflex guard. Even if I would buy your point about it i'd rather say it's more harmful on glad because it's only up for 500ms. Orochi's is up for much longer.
Saying good players won't attack is a strawman. Because that forces me to contest that claim rather than discussing the original topic. If you are getting your storm rush blocked you're attempting to use it on attacks that have little to no recovery. Which is still possible to hit them anyway. But you'd have to SR on prediction and not reaction. If SR was any faster than is it would be able to be used on lights on reaction. Which was a problem.

Didn't mention moves. I said 4-5 tweaks. and I didn't say on par either.

Knight_Raime
03-13-2018, 07:47 PM
Knight has brought us valuable points, the screaming for the buff is out of focus. But im afraid I disagree with some conclusions

It is important to point out that there are good orochi, and Yes, they can be effective, but for this you a year worth of training is required, perfecting and knowing every aspect of the other characters to countteract, and do absolutely zero mistakes. ( one light parry and his is done against some heros)

Many are asking openers, but he should not have any of that, saying that I think the tools he current has are still insufficient (in number and quality) to be an effective counter attacker.

Deflect is still too risky to be worth committing to Riptide cant be feinted, and still be gb or whiif punished.

As I said before I would like to see him with a bigger options to play for bait / faint / punish.

What pains me is exactly that to be a competitive orochi, you need tons of experience, to be unforeseeable, do not make any mistakes. It's a quite stressful. kkk

As I said before I would like to see him with a bigger options to play for bait / feint / punish.

Exaggerating a little , you have to be god to win with Orochi, or just choose Shaman (insert others)...

A good orochi just like a good warden is someone whos basically mastered the base game mechanics.
I don't think he needs any new tools. The current tools just need a little buff.

Knight_Raime
03-13-2018, 07:49 PM
Ive got to admit I didn't see some of the "buffs" people suggested like a safe opener I really don't agree with them that would kinda ruin orochi for me tbh but my bad candel and knight I thought you 2 where trying to say he's didn't need any tweeks or buffs I can't wait for his rebalance/rework I stopped using him back in s2 give me a reason to pick him up again

No He absolutely needs tweaks. All heros can use some.
I just see a lot of plastering of hyper armor/unblockables/ and even more outlandish ideas to make orochi a proper aggressor that opens people rather than being a counter attacker.

Devils-_-legacy
03-13-2018, 07:57 PM
Yh I got to admit I wrote that before i seen some of the request some people have asked for after candle brang it up I had to have a look at what people have said recently and tbh the majority of what I'm seeing is based on him being the agreseror and not foucused on shutting down the enemy's attacks which is what made me play him originally

guor6800
03-13-2018, 09:30 PM
Excuse the rude-ish title but I wanted to use something that would grab peoples attention. Personally i've gotten fed up with how many posts or threads (not just here) claiming how trashy Orochi is. And coming up with insane buff ideas. Or just plain wrong ones -cough- tozens kick -cough- So I decided I would write up a thread on how to play Orochi "properly." In order to play him properly you must first understand what the Orochi is. A counter attacker. He's not an aggressor. He doesn't seek to open up a player. He has tools to properly chunk health in quick and decisive blows. He's very much a living version of Aramusha's blade blockade. Meaning his moves are meant for specific situations.
So instead of writing a guide i'm simply going to tell you what his tools are for:

Double top light:
Is your bread and butter move. It has decent range. decent speed. and alright damage. You use this to apply pressure. To bait feints.
To whiff punish. To beat raw bashes. the list goes on. If all else fails this is his most consistent way of punishing you and staying in your face.

Side lights/zone:
Both perform the same function. they exist as random throws on already conditioned enemies. Someone constantly blocking top but not falling for your feint baits?
Zone. someone wise to blocking the side hit after your double top light? zone. Someone eyeing for your zone but blocking your top lights? opposite side light (from your non zone side.)

Dash lights:
These are your defacto counters to other dodge attacks. See a pk begin to back dash? zeypher strike. See a kensei going for his new spoopy leg swift strike? dodge light.
They also work against raw bash unblockables like top light does.

Riptide strike:
Is your optimal punish tool on high recovery attacks. Things like another orochi's riptide, chain finishers like a warden letting his his top heavy finisher rip.
It's risky but it can be used against some mix ups. like if a bushi hidden stance feinted something and then let an attack rip from HS.

Storm rush:
Alternate tool to punishing whiffs AND high recovery attacks. You can even zone after it if the opponents guard was up top when you hit them with SR as the stun puts heros in a high recovery state.
It guarantees double top light in most instances. and can be soft feinted into a GB if you were cheeky enough to use it after a non high recovery move.

Heavies:
Are your primary method of punishes after a parry or baiting someone with top feint. top heavy on light parry. and side heavies are used in some max OOS punishes.

Deflects:
Are your secondary method of punishing with the potential of eeking out more damage.
See due to orochi's swiftness he can GB or double light after most things he does which keeps enemies on their toes and potentially get more damage.
Just wind gust a light? quickly follow with double top light. If that lands next time you wind gust go for a GB.
Hurricane blast is orochi's ultimate risky tool and his best mind game mix up. It has armor. does I believe 40 damage. If the person attempts to dodge you can soft cancel it into a GB for a top heavy. or if they're going to attack you anyway but you won't survive the hit soft cancel into wind gust. Maybe they got really lucky on a read and attempt to roll away. dash out of it and storm rush that sucker.

The important thing to understand is that some of Orochi's tools over lap on what they can potentially do. Meaning a sign of a good Orochi is not only someone who understands the role of his moves in his kit. But can comfortably use different tools to accomplish the same task so the opponent has a much harder time answering the Orochi. Now. Even after all of this i'm not saying he's perfect as is. He can and should see some changes. just like every other hero. But he's not in a dire state. The devs are already on a good track with the top light damage nerf and buffing riptides damage. Honestly I just feel like people don't get what Orochi really is. And claim he's bad because he's predictable. When really Orochi is only predictable because the person playing as him is playing that way.

So a guide about how to turtle properly with orochi :p

Just kidding very well written Raime. But you make it sound too easy. You know that in "high" level play an orochi is probably doomed from the lack of option. I mean throwing a light from the different side of the zone just want to get parried hard.

If we put two players with same amount of skills and experience,one on orochi and one on the rest of the assasins who really has the tools to be more creative and play better mindgames through the fight? That's where my problem with orochi stands.

If he can outplay the other heroes? Definitively every single one of them. But comparing his double top and zone with shamans full kit on jumps,bleeds,soft feints and unblockables for example it feels like i use a stick to fight a full plate armored knight. He has like 3-4 more tools to be innovative with his gameplay.

wolfman25br
03-13-2018, 09:59 PM
So a guide about how to turtle properly with orochi :p

Just kidding very well written Raime. But you make it sound too easy. You know that in "high" level play an orochi is probably doomed from the lack of option. I mean throwing a light from the different side of the zone just want to get parried hard.

If we put two players with same amount on skills and experience,one on orochi and one on the rest of the assasins who really has the tools to be more creative and play better mindgames through the fight? That's where my problem with orochi stands.

If he can outplay the other heroes? Definitively every single one of them. But comparing his double top and zone with shamans full kit on jumps,bleeds,soft feints and unblockables for example it feels like i use a stick to fight a full plate armored knight. He has like 3-4 more tools to be innovative with his gameplay.

WoW!

I could not explain it any better.

This is exact my point of view, that's why I mentioned that it could have an increase of moves (not just buffs) is his toolkit (not as openers).

In addition to balance, new moves can give an air of novelty in the gameplay.

But PlsStop with the Tozen Kicks nonsense. Its op, and or dont fit the role.

guor6800
03-13-2018, 10:59 PM
WoW!

I could not explain it any better.

This is exact my point of view, that's why I mentioned that it could have an increase of moves (not just buffs) is his toolkit (not as openers).

In addition to balance, new moves can give an air of novelty in the gameplay.

But PlsStop with the Tozen Kicks nonsense. Its op, and or dont fit the role.

The "openers" trend started with freaking centurion on season 2. After this many people feel that their class should have an unblockable "opener" and i don't really blame them. Personally im not a really big fun of neutral unblockable opener moves but im not the one that calls the shots for sure.

As for orochi. He needs tweeks at the very least..Something that could make his side lights actually useful must be done. Assasin with 600 ms side lights feels like a joke honestly.Some new chains would be welcomed also not that neccesary though. And make Riptide cancelable at least. I won't say unblockable because it loses its purpose of "countering".Just let us be able to feint it.

Yoshimitsu_440
03-14-2018, 03:15 AM
So becsuse I am not a master at deflecting I am a trash orochi? Hmm. I played exclusively orochi since closed beta until glad release and I disagree with op. As someone who does kendo it blows my mind how slow orochis attacks are and how predictable he is comparing to other characters especially comparing to kensei

LEGENDz_31
03-14-2018, 05:00 AM
Since beta to now orochi hasn't received many changes.
I'm hardly new. No time spent in customs is recorded. Further more i've been dueling pretty much exclusively since launch on more than just one hero.
So the rep for any hero I have isn't going to be insanely high. But if you want to attempt to write off my points over something as irrelevant as rep then by all means go ahead and leave the thread.

I react and block just fine with reflex guard. Even if I would buy your point about it i'd rather say it's more harmful on glad because it's only up for 500ms. Orochi's is up for much longer.
Saying good players won't attack is a strawman. Because that forces me to contest that claim rather than discussing the original topic. If you are getting your storm rush blocked you're attempting to use it on attacks that have little to no recovery. Which is still possible to hit them anyway. But you'd have to SR on prediction and not reaction. If SR was any faster than is it would be able to be used on lights on reaction. Which was a problem.

Didn't mention moves. I said 4-5 tweaks. and I didn't say on par either.

Never said you are new. You are basically saying in your original post that if you think that orochi is bottom tier(trash tier) that we are playing him wrong. I happen to think that in his current state he is bottom tier.

You said rep doesnít matter. I think rep is experience with the character. I think that 8,600 player kills does mean something. I played nearly 10 full days as orochi but hey your right we must not be playing orochi right.

You mentioned that I said that orochi is not the same as in beta(I ment how effective he was then to now) and you replied that his skills havenít changed a lot. I agree with you on that and that is the problem. Our tool kit stayed static while new characters and reworks expanded.

LEGENDz_31
03-14-2018, 05:02 AM
So a guide about how to turtle properly with orochi :p

Just kidding very well written Raime. But you make it sound too easy. You know that in "high" level play an orochi is probably doomed from the lack of option. I mean throwing a light from the different side of the zone just want to get parried hard.

If we put two players with same amount of skills and experience,one on orochi and one on the rest of the assasins who really has the tools to be more creative and play better mindgames through the fight? That's where my problem with orochi stands.

If he can outplay the other heroes? Definitively every single one of them. But comparing his double top and zone with shamans full kit on jumps,bleeds,soft feints and unblockables for example it feels like i use a stick to fight a full plate armored knight. He has like 3-4 more tools to be innovative with his gameplay.

Very well said

Knight_Raime
03-14-2018, 11:33 PM
Never said you are new. You are basically saying in your original post that if you think that orochi is bottom tier(trash tier) that we are playing him wrong. I happen to think that in his current state he is bottom tier.

You said rep doesn’t matter. I think rep is experience with the character. I think that 8,600 player kills does mean something. I played nearly 10 full days as orochi but hey your right we must not be playing orochi right.

You mentioned that I said that orochi is not the same as in beta(I ment how effective he was then to now) and you replied that his skills haven’t changed a lot. I agree with you on that and that is the problem. Our tool kit stayed static while new characters and reworks expanded.

I fought an orochi main last night who was rep 26 with him. Dude doesn't have a rep with any other character. I mopped the floor with him because he played predictably and used only a small portion of the kit. You're never going to convince me that rep matters. Ever.

I also stated that my title was more of an attention grabber than anything. There is no "correct" way to play any hero. However if you section yourself to a small portion of the kit and don't play into all of it's strengths it's going to make the hero feel bad. Which is what i'm getting at.

LEGENDz_31
03-15-2018, 02:10 AM
I fought an orochi main last night who was rep 26 with him. Dude doesn't have a rep with any other character. I mopped the floor with him because he played predictably and used only a small portion of the kit. You're never going to convince me that rep matters. Ever.

I also stated that my title was more of an attention grabber than anything. There is no "correct" way to play any hero. However if you section yourself to a small portion of the kit and don't play into all of it's strengths it's going to make the hero feel bad. Which is what i'm getting at.

Ok fair points, I donít want to circle around on the conversation. I think we both made our case as well as we could. Hopefully soon we will know what their plans are for orochi.