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View Full Version : Whats the sense of a charachter like highlander?



swiss_soldier_1
03-11-2018, 03:07 PM
So, highlander was utter garbage before S5, and now he deals tons of damage with a single hit. In duel it's enough to be careful and you wont lose, in fact you will probably destroy any highlander.

but in 4v4? he'll just come spamming thousands of unblockabls that deal massive damage while you are fighting someone else. he can grab you and throw you on the ground for a GUARANTEED unblockable. he can kick you and wall splat you for guess what, a guranteed unblockable.

why would you even create a character like this? he's not strong in duels and not fun at all in 4v4

please reverse this trend

Vakris_One
03-11-2018, 03:58 PM
What would you like them to do? All they did was up his damage and improve the tracking on Caber Toss and now he's suddenly a problem for you just because he is no longer garbage tier.

kanuzira
03-11-2018, 04:04 PM
What would you like them to do? All they did was up his damage and improve the tracking on Caber Toss and now he's suddenly a problem for you just because he is no longer garbage tier.

the kick to cabertoss has been to powerfull since the beginning since it gives you a free heavy. Imagine a guardbreak that you cant block for all heroes.

Vakris_One
03-11-2018, 04:15 PM
the kick to cabertoss has been to powerfull since the beginning since it gives you a free heavy. Imagine a guardbreak that you cant block for all heroes.
You can still dodge it though. In the beginning its tracking was pathetic and it made the move near useless and a waste of stamina, the only players it was powerful against were noobies who didn't know what to do.

Now it actually presents a viable threat because you need to time the dodge correctly in order to avoid it. Imagine a move you can dodge and get a free guardbreak as a punish - that's what Caber Toss is. And rolling back still evades both the kick and the toss.

Dry.Fish
03-11-2018, 04:51 PM
Should you be able to feint your kick to caber toss?

swiss_soldier_1
03-11-2018, 06:02 PM
What would you like them to do? All they did was up his damage and improve the tracking on Caber Toss and now he's suddenly a problem for you just because he is no longer garbage tier.

just because he is no longer garbage tier? now he deals MASSIVE damage with SIMPLE BLOWS. that's too much for 4v4. they could have added some moves, they modified caber toss that might be good (also for duels, thats my main point), but he is just annoying to play against in 4v4. he will just come and spam unblockables that will kill you in few hits. just ruins the experience.

actually my point is that a character that just need to go in "offensive stance" (again, useless in 1v1) to spam unblockables is just a bad idea. now he's here so we'll have to deal with him, but now he also kills you in 3 hits? amazing

Hormly
03-11-2018, 06:07 PM
I find the new highlander is just a random experience these days. All i do is wait for him to enter unblockable mode and swing my lights like a crazy person and hope it interrupts all his attacks, as theres no way to really react to what he does. is he throwing a kick?! better guess properly because if he feints into a grab youre eating a big hit, and if the kick lands youre eating an even BIGGER hit (i think)

this game is starting to feel more and more like streetfighter

harshing my buzz

Cliff_001
03-11-2018, 06:12 PM
Yep I agree, highlander in a group fight is one of the scariest things. Imo he only really needed a stamina buff.

Vakris_One
03-11-2018, 06:44 PM
just because he is no longer garbage tier? now he deals MASSIVE damage with SIMPLE BLOWS. that's too much for 4v4. they could have added some moves, they modified caber toss that might be good (also for duels, thats my main point), but he is just annoying to play against in 4v4. he will just come and spam unblockables that will kill you in few hits. just ruins the experience.

actually my point is that a character that just need to go in "offensive stance" (again, useless in 1v1) to spam unblockables is just a bad idea. now he's here so we'll have to deal with him, but now he also kills you in 3 hits? amazing
Having two stances is actually an interesting concept in my opinion and they could do more with it like giving the Warden a half sword stance. If Highlander just "spams unblockables" all you need do is either parry them or light attack him out of OF stance - in a gank situation focus on him as your main target and interrupt his OF stance as much as you can. Almost every character in the roster can now generate some form of unblockable attack or shove so really Highlander is not the be all and end all of sinners in 4v4s.

Nerfing his damage would basically put him back to where he was - utterly mediocre in duels and back to just killing you slightly slower in a gank. So you'd be putting one character back down into bottom tier in 1v1s while the unblockable craziness in 4v4 continues on.

Why not instead ask for the devs to address the problem of shoves, grapples and bites in 4v4s directly? For example, being hit with a shove/grapple/bite in an outnumbered situation should fill up your revenge meter by a factor of 50-60%. That way you get your revenge quicker if being stun locked and pushed around. While in revenge mode you cannot be unbalanced or stun locked by unblockable melee attacks (kicks and shoves have no affect on you but Caber Toss, Demons Embrace and Shaman bite still do).

Finally, revenge activation should be instant the moment you press the button and should stop stuff like Raider's shoulder carry, Shaman's bite and Highlander's Caber Toss if timed right at the moment they grab you - i.e. just like how you can repel someone's weapon strike if you pop revenge. Shugo's Demons Embrace should also bounce off you if you popped revenge just as he is about to grab you but Shugo should not lose health in that situation, he should only be unbalanced.

What about that for a game-wide solution?

swiss_soldier_1
03-11-2018, 07:03 PM
there are tons of threads about all the unblockables spam, obviously its not just highlander. focus on him? what if there is two of them? what if comes from behind and in 2 hits he kills you? thats the problems. its just how the character is made that doesnt make any sense to me. next to useless in 1v1 and destroyer (not in a positive way, nor in a skillful way) in 4v4

Kahuf1
03-11-2018, 07:07 PM
I dont think Highlander is useless in 1v1. I main him, play only 1v1 and its rly fun to play against most of heroes (yea, lightspamers are struggles).

Devs tunr this game to unblocable softfeintable hyperarmour game. Every new hero have more and more, every reworked hero have again more. This is probably trend and this is reason, why i dont play 4v4, cause 3v1 is not fun for me.

Vakris_One
03-11-2018, 07:39 PM
there are tons of threads about all the unblockables spam, obviously its not just highlander. focus on him? what if there is two of them? what if comes from behind and in 2 hits he kills you? thats the problems. its just how the character is made that doesnt make any sense to me. next to useless in 1v1 and destroyer (not in a positive way, nor in a skillful way) in 4v4
Well, I guess you can choose to ignore everything I just suggested to address the core of the problem which is unblockables in 4v4s and just continue to focus on your pet hate for Highlander.

I've offered a game-wide solution but if you're determined to be short sighted and just bash on a single character then I'll leave you to it as I don't much care for unproductive complaining.

swiss_soldier_1
03-11-2018, 08:22 PM
Well, I guess you can choose to ignore everything I just suggested to address the core of the problem which is unblockables in 4v4s and just continue to focus on your pet hate for Highlander.

I've offered a game-wide solution but if you're determined to be short sighted and just bash on a single character then I'll leave you to it as I don't much care for unproductive complaining.

are you stupid? i just said that there are already plenty of threads, one started by myself, that highlight the 4v4 ganking/unblockable/hyper armor problem.

here it's about speaking about a character that its built FROM ITS FOUNDATIONS in a wrong way. to hopefully discourage new characters like this

UbiInsulin
03-11-2018, 09:12 PM
Swiss_soldier is right in saying that this thread addresses a different topic than the other ganking threads. Whether or not you agree with them is a different matter, but please just offer your counterpoints and leave it at that.

RenegadeTX2000
03-11-2018, 10:22 PM
Highlander demands space to operate in 1v1's to get his kit flowing, anybody that can rush him down beats him. The goal is to smother highlander and there's nothing much he can do about it. When he's from a distance it's all about playing the spacing game, that's all there is to it. He's not gonna be running from you anytime soon anyway because his running speed is trash and if you encounter him you can either disengage or actually deal with him, while he's focused only on trying to fight you since he can't dictate the pace of when and where he wants to fight.

Highlander could just use a few tweaks to make him actually perform consistently.

Offensive lights whiffing<<<I have plenty of videos of that happening and dying for it sometimes.

Celtic curse whiff

Offensive kick interrupting attacks mid swing which doesn't grant him baylors might to which he gets parried.

How bad his running attack is, doesn't do anything useful, I've talked with every highlander main and none have found a use for it, nor actually use it in games. If there was a move count, this would be one of if not the least used move in the entire game.

His armor on heavies in neutral take forever to activate... I feel like his side heavies which do 35 dmg should actually have armor activation faster then his top heavy and of course harder to GB him out of a side heavy in defensive stance.

The longer you are in defensive stance, the worse it is for you and the closer you are to losing against anybody. I think Highlander in defense stance alone is the worst character in the game.

Offense stance is great but can be very inconsistent at times as mentioned above.

I could go on but i'll stop here. I could go on with every character honestly. I'm not biased towards my main since I pretty much have a handle on every character in the game and understand their concept fully.

Knight_Raime
03-11-2018, 10:25 PM
Considering highlander has to both enter offensive form and throw his toss or his kick in order to get that 40 damage for free it's fine. You should be acting to focus on him. and keep him out of offensive form.

"but what if their are 2?" Why stop there? lets just say there is 4 highlanders and demand a nerf because of that situation?
They absolutely can't balance the game around every possible situation. By your logic we should nerf every goki into the ground because you could have 2 goki's trying to hug you to death.
Or have 2 lawbringers that constantly long arm you while their team takes turns beating you like a pinata.
I can go on.

4v4 is never going to feel fair for several reasons. One of which is the fact that you can have multiples of the same hero on one team.
Even if heros were a lot less "spammy" (which I contend to be BS because season 1 had it's fair share of bs spammy things) 4v4 is still centered around ganking and spamming your safe moves.

Until the devs make a serious effort to include things in the game that discourage ganks it's going to be like this with a hero. Highlander is far and away from the first hero to be called BS in a team fight. and he won't be the last. Nerfing his damage isn't going to solve the real problem and will only hurt his performance in 1v1. Of all the things that's been complained about HL's balor might "spam" has probably been the least bad thing "spammed" in 4v4.

Kahuf1
03-11-2018, 11:26 PM
.......I think Highlander in defense stance alone is the worst character in the game. ......


I dont like cuting some words from context but this from Renegade is pure true. Thats reazon why I even try to push here idea of some defensive opener like "push" enemy away from highlanders face with no damage, no stamina damage, no guaranteed damage after, just push enemy away and fastflow to offstance, cause fast enemy in highlanders face dont allow him even light wiffing...

The "push" should look like off stance emote. One handed push enemy...

But sorry guys, u complain on highlander on this post, but this is my look on highlander.

RenegadeTX2000
03-12-2018, 12:57 AM
if highlander gets smacked with a nerf. I'm hopping on shaman faster than flash.

Muitcha-melodia
03-12-2018, 01:20 AM
Highlander is solid, the devs did a great job polishing his kit, hope they ignore those nerf this nerf that topics

Protos_88
03-12-2018, 06:44 AM
haha yah rly grat job.... so u play higlander heh? this game have 0 balance... hehe and devs?? devs know it ...

Kahuf1
03-12-2018, 08:35 AM
I main highlander, yea and i can tell he even need some move or buff on his deff stance.

Im talking about 1v1, cause nothing else cannot be balanced. Here is tons of uninterubles, unblocables etc. And Highlanders deff stance is garbage in this staby staby spamylights game.

Give him 1 hand "push" enemy away with fastflow to off stance. No damage, no guaranteed damage after "push".

SpaceJim12
03-12-2018, 01:27 PM
And rolling back still evades both the kick and the toss

Hmm, unfortunatly see couple times (on PC), how HL just grab someone in rolling back. And warden now haven't any chances to dodge this ****.
It's all cause of "improve tracking" I suppose. And it's terrible like all balance changes in S5.

Vakris_One
03-12-2018, 03:07 PM
Hmm, unfortunatly see couple times (on PC), how HL just grab someone in rolling back. And warden now haven't any chances to dodge this ****.
It's all cause of "improve tracking" I suppose. And it's terrible like all balance changes in S5.
Highlander cannot grab you out of a roll. If he grabs you then it's because you rolled way too early or tried to roll away too late.


https://youtu.be/3jLf1uqTvl8

You're welcome.

KotoKuraken
03-12-2018, 06:28 PM
Here's a better solution: don't guarantee a 40 damage heavy on getting kicked. There's no other character in the game that guarantees a heavy attack on a simple bash, much less one for 40 damage. Give him a guaranteed light attack that doesn't take much stamina, so that he'll be in line with the other characters.

Feels like absolute bs to have a bash/grab that comes out as quick as a Conq bash and does so much damage. Could you imagine the uproar if Conq, Valkyrie, Warden, Kensei, Lawbringer, or Gladiator guaranteed a heavy on bash?

Kahuf1
03-12-2018, 07:02 PM
Here's a better solution: don't guarantee a 40 damage heavy on getting kicked. There's no other character in the game that guarantees a heavy attack on a simple bash, much less one for 40 damage. Give him a guaranteed light attack that doesn't take much stamina, so that he'll be in line with the other characters.

Feels like absolute bs to have a bash/grab that comes out as quick as a Conq bash and does so much damage. Could you imagine the uproar if Conq, Valkyrie, Warden, Kensei, Lawbringer, or Gladiator guaranteed a heavy on bash?

Oh... ok... again, highlander have to be in off stance (when he have NO DEFENCE to hit or GB).Then he can perform kick. Can u tell me some other hero have such big risk to perform like highlander to do "bash + hit" combo? BIG RISK = big reward if im correct...

Dasteel1974
03-13-2018, 04:14 AM
Say why you want but he is a bs character. Infinite unblockables coupled with an unblockable kick that feints into an unblockable throw that gets a guaranteed unblockable heavy is just fíing stupid. Then add into it his uninterruptibles and itís stupid. If are not a great parrier, then you have no chance. But you know. It does make sense though. As brain dead stupid as Ubisoft is, it only makes sense that they give a character the moves they gave Highlander. But hey, Centurion with his GB into wall splat is OP but this d-bags unblockables and uninterruptibles and his hyper armor are just fine. Got it. I look forward to the day when Ubi doesnít have their heads firmly lodged in their own a****s. The game will be much better then.

Kahuf1
03-13-2018, 08:49 AM
Say why you want but he is a bs character. Infinite unblockables coupled with an unblockable kick that feints into an unblockable throw that gets a guaranteed unblockable heavy is just f’ing stupid. Then add into it his uninterruptibles and it’s stupid. If are not a great parrier, then you have no chance. But you know. It does make sense though. As brain dead stupid as Ubisoft is, it only makes sense that they give a character the moves they gave Highlander. But hey, Centurion with his GB into wall splat is OP but this d-bags unblockables and uninterruptibles and his hyper armor are just fine. Got it. I look forward to the day when Ubi doesn’t have their heads firmly lodged in their own a****s. The game will be much better then.

Typical... "say what u want but im mister /missis universe so Im right..."

Unblocables = Highlander have to be in off stance and if u cant parry 800ms attack, its pretty bad (and btw, i dont know its just me, but when enemy holds big weapon, its easier for me to parry,then enemy hold tiny axe like shamans)

Guaranteed damage = Highlander have to be in off stance, so u can light him or make some bash, dodge attack etc to keep him out of off stance

Hyper armour = what option he (or devs) to give some slow as hell heroes? Every assasin or fast hybrid can perform light to "counter" heavy without hyperarmour...u have rly hard time against shugoki right?

BarbeQMichael
03-13-2018, 10:08 AM
Here's a better solution: don't guarantee a 40 damage heavy on getting kicked. There's no other character in the game that guarantees a heavy attack on a simple bash, much less one for 40 damage. Give him a guaranteed light attack that doesn't take much stamina, so that he'll be in line with the other characters.

Feels like absolute bs to have a bash/grab that comes out as quick as a Conq bash and does so much damage. Could you imagine the uproar if Conq, Valkyrie, Warden, Kensei, Lawbringer, or Gladiator guaranteed a heavy on bash?

That is because it is nowhere near as fast conq. Conq bash is 500ms, Highlander kick takes: 700ms (or more) to enter Offensive, and then the kick is another +700ms, and if you feint into grab that is +300ms (the grab itself is 600ms if you do only it).

So if you face a highlander doing kick into grab, you had 1700ms or just kick 1400ms to react to it, any heavy or light in game will interrupt that.

The main difference with everyone else like the conq, glad, cent and so is that they can do their bashes from neutral, and HL cannot. He has to enter the offensive form wich takes very long to go into, and has no defences in it (you can literally just gb or poke with light him out of it). If you let the HL stay in OF, the fault is not with HL.

By the way gladiator zone bash guarantees following heavy if you didn't dodge it

Dasteel1974
03-16-2018, 02:20 AM
Typical... "say what u want but im mister /missis universe so Im right..."

Unblocables = Highlander have to be in off stance and if u cant parry 800ms attack, its pretty bad (and btw, i dont know its just me, but when enemy holds big weapon, its easier for me to parry,then enemy hold tiny axe like shamans)

Guaranteed damage = Highlander have to be in off stance, so u can light him or make some bash, dodge attack etc to keep him out of off stance

Hyper armour = what option he (or devs) to give some slow as hell heroes? Every assasin or fast hybrid can perform light to "counter" heavy without hyperarmour...u have rly hard time against shugoki right?

Hello McFly. Learn to read. What part of ďif you arenít a great parrierĒ do you not understand? You still have to have timing down in order to parry the attack. But also to have the kick feint to throw get a guaranteed 45 is ridiculous. If you donít have the timing down perfect, you canít escape it. As far as options go, there are other heroís that donít have half his options.

RoosterIlluzion
03-16-2018, 05:04 AM
Should you be able to feint your kick to caber toss?

Notice how no one answers this with a logical explanation? Lol

Dry.Fish
03-16-2018, 05:41 AM
Notice how no one answers this with a logical explanation? Lol
It was more of a conversation starter to fish for opinions.

Jrock42_
03-16-2018, 02:05 PM
Where were all these people saying Highlander's kit is too strong back in season 4?

CheekyKemosabe
03-16-2018, 05:19 PM
Highlander is one of the characters you have to fight against a lot to get used to his moves.

Personally, i think he's great in 1v1 fights. I use him all the time in brawl and elimination and the only time i really get wrecked is when it's by someone who's genuinely a better player or if i get ganged.

also as someone said before, i don't remember ever seeing people complain about highlander before season 5. That just tells me the changes ubisoft made are good, cause now he's actually a bit of a challenge for people, especially those that turtle and wait for the celtic curse.

i'm not saying he's not a pain to deal with in a gank, i've had to deal with that a bit, but i feel like it's more of having to have it happen multiple times just so someone can get used to it, then maybe it won't be such an issue.

HL is slowly becoming my main the more i play, just because you actually have to think several moves ahead in every fight. A lot of the stuff i pull with him heavily depends on whether or not my opponent does exactly what i expect them to.

CandleInTheDark
03-16-2018, 05:35 PM
also as someone said before, i don't remember ever seeing people complain about highlander before season 5. That just tells me the changes ubisoft made are good, cause now he's actually a bit of a challenge for people, especially those that turtle and wait for the celtic curse.

I've said the same about kensei a few times, as soon as he was the tiniest bit viable people suddenly found him a problem (and apparently found out for the first time that he has hyperarmour) Looking at the matrix given to us in the state of balance yesterday (39% in top 2% duels 45.8% among top 4.5% in dominion, bottom in both cases), Highlander was in desperate need of something.

I don't main anyone any more, around playing whoever I feel like at the time now and again I plan to get everyone to rep 7, maybe 8 so I can get top gear with the event gear easily but 7 first certainly, he's on my list somewhere between finish the knights and finish what I started elsewhere (maybe start him with one or two others after the assassins).