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View Full Version : Time to nerf conqueror



swiss_soldier_1
03-11-2018, 12:45 AM
He's too annoying, and most of all , if you are out of stamina there is NOTHING you can do. How can this be fair?
I've been beaten too many times by average players just because they use conqueror..

Light after shield bash shouldnt be guaranteed either, or better, after a missed bash conqueror shouldnt be able to do whatever he wants. We should be able to guard break him.

Just nerf this walking tank that has too many safe options. He should play defensive and try to use his flail uppercut to counter attack, not go offensive and destroying you with barely punishable moves.

JadeBosson.
03-11-2018, 01:44 AM
he's cool but I don't think he's nerf worthy rn

Cliff_001
03-11-2018, 02:03 AM
Nerf shield bash tracking and fix the minion exploit and ill think he will be ok for now. But he should get another balance pass later on.

Hormly
03-11-2018, 02:17 AM
the shield bash must be made punishable. It's ludicrous atm.

he throws SB, I dodge.... and, just, wait for his next move. nothing else I can do

ArchDukeInstinct
03-11-2018, 02:41 AM
He's too annoying, and most of all , if you are out of stamina there is NOTHING you can do. How can this be fair?
I've been beaten too many times by average players just because they use conqueror..

Being annoying isn't grounds for a nerf and being in OOS is supposed to be threatening.


Light after shield bash shouldnt be guaranteed either

Is this a joke?

Why would anyone use shield bash if that change was implemented? To deal 10 stamina damage? To ledge people once in a blue moon?


or better, after a missed bash conqueror shouldnt be able to do whatever he wants. We should be able to guard break him.

So shield bash shouldn't guarantee anything but side stepping it should always guarantee the opponent a guard break and a heavy. Wow perfect balance.


Just nerf this walking tank that has too many safe options. He should play defensive and try to use his flail uppercut to counter attack, not go offensive and destroying you with barely punishable moves.

Perfect, then people like you will cry that Conquerors only turtle and how boring it is and how we need to nerf his defensive options so he has to attack more. That same strategy did wonders for year 1 after all.

swiss_soldier_1
03-11-2018, 02:52 AM
supposed to be threatening? you do realize that if you are oos agaisnt conqueror you are DEAD? thats no THREAT thats a FACT.


oh yeah so lets just give a hardly reactable bash that guarantees damage so people will just spam it, great idea. warlords heabutt? dodge and gb. rings a bell? centurions kick? very reactable


people like me? who do you think you are, master "i know everything about for honor and my opinion is a fact"? you do realize that conq has one of the best offenses AND defenses of the game? maybe try to stay objective even if we are speaking about your (probable) main

Waynedetta40k
03-11-2018, 03:02 AM
supposed to be threatening? you do realize that if you are oos agaisnt conqueror you are DEAD? thats no THREAT thats a FACT.


oh yeah so lets just give a hardly reactable bash that guarantees damage so people will just spam it, great idea. warlords heabutt? dodge and gb. rings a bell? centurions kick? very reactable


people like me? who do you think you are, master "i know everything about for honor and my opinion is a fact"? you do realize that conq has one of the best offenses AND defenses of the game? maybe try to stay objective even if we are speaking about your (probable) main

You remember me of a guy I fought quite a few times today he was salty as **** and i couldnt stop laughing anymore at some point.
So he has one of the best offenses so what? I use SB and i got punished for it. I can dodge other conqs shieldbashes.
Maybe you start listing all the stuff you complain about you have not listed his "best defense" in game yet. Maybe you define first what you complain about lol

Animaeus
03-11-2018, 03:25 AM
Shield bash from neutral is
A) A 500ms attack. Standard and far from unreactable.
B) Delayable from 100ms-400ms. Tracking isn't the problem, you're dodging prematurely.
C) Punishable with guard break, and obviously any dodge attack.

Shield bash mix up (After an attack), however, allows the conqueror to continue attacking after a miss, in which case its your job to behave the same way you would against a Shinobi after dodging his kick.

The shaman is the new standard for balance.
I feel like Kensei, Conqueror and Berserker have all been successfully reworked around that standard, or respectably close to it.

Conq is in a good place. He need not be ****ed with.

Vrbas1
03-11-2018, 03:33 AM
He's too annoying, and most of all , if you are out of stamina there is NOTHING you can do. How can this be fair?

Guess you never fought a Cent then.

Conq is fine.

ArchDukeInstinct
03-11-2018, 04:20 AM
supposed to be threatening? you do realize that if you are oos agaisnt conqueror you are DEAD? thats no THREAT thats a FACT.

Except all you have to do is react to the shield bash / guard break mixup. Shield bash is still 500ms and highly telegraphed with an orange glow, and your dodges don't magically stop working in OOS. Only issue here is that they need to get a timesnap replacement in sooner rather than later to remove the inconsistencies that will sometimes make attacks happen significantly quicker than they should.

The other Conqueror OOS pressure would be to run back and forth 50/50ing between a guard break or a shield crush, the latter takes roughly half of the Conqueror's stamina and only guarantees a light. Warlord has a superior version of this.


oh yeah so lets just give a hardly reactable bash that guarantees damage so people will just spam it, great idea. warlords heabutt? dodge and gb. rings a bell? centurions kick? very reactable

If people are spamming it against you then you just anticipate the next one and throw a light slightly before to catch it which would beat both options in the bash/gb mixup. Furthermore anticipating a forward dash without a shield bash is coming and just guard breaking instead is a free heavy for you.

Warlord's head butt is the same speed as Conqueror's shield bash so don't try to tell me one is hardly reactable but the other isn't.

The most hilarious part is that miss recovery on dash into shield bash is actually 100ms longer than it used to be pre-rework, why is it suddenly a problem now? Because playing against Conqueror isn't a free win anymore and you need a way to get him nerfed back into that state?


people like me? who do you think you are, master "i know everything about for honor and my opinion is a fact"?

Yeah Conq hating garbage like you.


you do realize that conq has one of the best offenses AND defenses of the game? maybe try to stay objective even if we are speaking about your (probable) main

Based on what exactly? Shield bash alone? Because the rest of Conqueror's offense is mediocre at best and various areas are total trash.
And Conqueror needs better offense than he had pre-rework now because his defense has objectively gotten worse with the removal of superior block in neutral and added delays to superior block on dashes.

Hormly
03-11-2018, 04:56 AM
Shield bash from neutral is

C) Punishable with guard break,


Lies

Arekonator
03-11-2018, 06:05 AM
Lies

Entirely depends on who you play.

Piss easy with PK or any other assassin.
Nigh impossible with lawbringer.

RenegadeTX2000
03-11-2018, 06:13 AM
The moment the assassin meta is no longer the meta, Conqueror gonna be sitting right on his throne looking like the messiah

Knight_Raime
03-11-2018, 08:30 AM
His OOS game has to be oppressive or we'll end up with an orochi situation.
His forward bash is absolutely punishable by several members of the cast.

His recovery only feels bad because he's canceling his dash recovery with a bash. if he just raw dashes in any direction that's not the front it's a free GB for all.
I'd be down with increasing it's stamina cost. maaaaybe increasing the recovery on the bash.

RenegadeTX2000
03-11-2018, 08:38 AM
nerf shield bash... buff his shield bash from feinting a heavy, buff the speed of it because he gets hit out of it against characters with fast heavies. I don't mind that version of the bash being unpunishable on gb tbh.

Pretty much all his cancels into shield bash should be sped up a bit but his shield bash in neutral should be nerfed a bit...

Tyrjo
03-11-2018, 08:42 AM
A missed bash needs to give him recovery frames. He can just keep going and going, even if you dodge it or blocks his lights. Make Warlord the same, no recovery on Headbutt and lights which are just keep coming in 500ms chains. Thanks.

Knight_Raime
03-11-2018, 08:50 AM
nerf shield bash... buff his shield bash from feinting a heavy, buff the speed of it because he gets hit out of it against characters with fast heavies. I don't mind that version of the bash being unpunishable on gb tbh.

Pretty much all his cancels into shield bash should be sped up a bit but his shield bash in neutral should be nerfed a bit...


I could see maybe buffing his shield uppercut so it can actually work against side attacks instead of just side dodges.
I think his current recovery with a forward bash is like...500ms? Which is punishable on GB with proper spacing on most heros. but it's pretty difficult.


A missed bash needs to give him recovery frames. He can just keep going and going, even if you dodge it or blocks his lights. Make Warlord the same, no recovery on Headbutt and lights which are just keep coming in 500ms chains. Thanks.

If his current forward bash recovery is 500ms then making it 600ms would probably still keep it oppressive. But i'd just much rather they increase the stamina cost on the move.

BarbeQMichael
03-11-2018, 08:59 AM
C) Punishable with guard break

Yes, for some characters. Some other heroes cannot do anything about it, and that that is a fact from hard numbers. Currently conq can just spam the shieldbash against those characters because if it hits it will deal damage, and if it doesnt hit, well, he just does it again.

The stamina cost should be higher to make it non-spammable, and it needs recovery frames so it can be punished with a guardbreak by everyone.

RenegadeTX2000
03-11-2018, 09:03 AM
I could see maybe buffing his shield uppercut so it can actually work against side attacks instead of just side dodges.
I think his current recovery with a forward bash is like...500ms? Which is punishable on GB with proper spacing on most heros. but it's pretty difficult.



If his current forward bash recovery is 500ms then making it 600ms would probably still keep it oppressive. But i'd just much rather they increase the stamina cost on the move.

Man... All they need to do is make this game more rewarding for heavies causing more chip on block. Then make shield uppercuts quicker and he really won't need the shield bash in neutral.
and before anyone says that Heavies causing that much chip would ruin 4v4's. Hell the game is all about unblockables in 4v4 anyway, with heavies on chip everybody would have something to use other than just viable unblockables. and of course adjust the way obtaining revenge and having revenge would negate chip damage from attackers, not completely but well enough you wouldn't get manhandled.

but 4v4 ganking needs balancing in general in my opinion, like if somebody GBs you and you CGB, you should have at least some armor to where you receive 50% less damage and more scenarios like that which would help even the playing field.

Jedioutcast88
03-11-2018, 11:26 AM
I put this on another form Iím going to mention it here the Conquerer is too safe. They gave one of the best turtle characters in the game ways to open up players and not trade anything for it. Heís not to bad with any character that has a good dodge, side stepping attack, hyper armor, or abilities that timed right can shut him down. With anyone else is troublesome. The only issues I have is he is hard to open up still and baiting him only gets you so far. Also his invincible with his zone is crap. With the right gear build, you can sustain it for some time. The other day it took me and 2 other teammates to take him down because we would all surround him attacked he throw his zone get revenge and just keep doing it and then got revenge a second after it wore off. I think what killed him was the chip damage. But still thatís something that can be exploited and become an issue fast.

WastedPunk
03-11-2018, 01:50 PM
LOL love all the conq mains saying he is balanced 😂
I am rep 1 conqueror.Picked him as soon as S5 Started and I'm already ****ting on everyone except assassins.
Just shield bash or forward gb.
Repeat these moves for free win

Not to mention the fact that SB is un-punishable even after dodge ,😂

swiss_soldier_1
03-11-2018, 02:57 PM
Except all you have to do is react to the shield bash / guard break mixup. Shield bash is still 500ms and highly telegraphed with an orange glow, and your dodges don't magically stop working in OOS. Only issue here is that they need to get a timesnap replacement in sooner rather than later to remove the inconsistencies that will sometimes make attacks happen significantly quicker than they should.


Warlord's head butt is the same speed as Conqueror's shield bash so don't try to tell me one is hardly reactable but the other isn't.


Yeah Conq hating garbage like you.



yeah you dodge the bash and then? you sit and wait, if you dont have a dodge attack. great. definition of safe move = unpunishable

who said warlods headbutt is more reactable? i specifically put it there because its hardly reactable but you still get a gb after dodgin (with conq? no.)
i said centurion's kick is very reactable, maybe learn to read

conq hating? i have reputation 8 conq and i always loved the character, i was super happy about the rework but now winning is so easy that i stopped playing him. so the only human garbage here it's you, whining conq main that wants to win every match with ease

just disapperar from this conversation

the other points have been dismissed by the other guys answering

EvoX.
03-11-2018, 05:04 PM
Except all you have to do is react to the shield bash / guard break mixup. Shield bash is still 500ms and highly telegraphed with an orange glow.

What a strawman argument. Literally every single unblockable in the game is ''highly telegraphed with an orange glow", difference being that most others are either slower or have a move preceding them. You're trying to make it sound as if his SB is an oh-so-reactable and easy to see coming move because it shares the base mechanic of every other unblockable (again, really bad argument), when it's pretty much up there with the most difficult ones to do so. There's a reason why everyone hates stuff like Gladiator Zone/Toe Stab or Warlord Headbutt - 500ms Unblockables from neutral are stepping on the line. Whether they actually cross it depends on two things: how useful the move is and how punishable it is. Conq's is both very useful and hardly punishable.

A slight nerf is in order, in my opinion.

Hormly
03-11-2018, 08:16 PM
All the power that was nerfed out of the warlord over the past year has been given to the conq. Fighting him feels like fighting a stronger evil doppelganger of myself. Fullblock? His is better. Unblockable from neutral? His is better

Perhaps this means WL will get his old kit back? Since the devs have clearly changed their minds on what constitutes ballance.

Devils-_-legacy
03-11-2018, 08:48 PM
You relise at the start conq was quite strong then got beat up with a nurf bat but I think wl needs a rework like the majority of the og roster

UbiInsulin
03-11-2018, 09:31 PM
Just a friendly reminder to keep the discussion on the topic of balancing the hero, rather than making anything personal. Conq mains are more than welcome to share their take on the proposed changes as well.

Maximum_Playa25
03-11-2018, 09:52 PM
As a conq main myself I think his 50:50 is in a very stong position right now and definitely needs a nerf of sorts, but only his shield bash. Maybe less stamina damage.

Sauronbaine
03-11-2018, 09:57 PM
As a conq main myself I think his 50:50 is in a very stong position right now and definitely needs a nerf of sorts, but only his shield bash. Maybe less stamina damage.

I'll take less stamina damage/more stamina on the shield bash if I get a damage buff on my heavies.

Knight_Raime
03-11-2018, 10:06 PM
What a strawman argument. Literally every single unblockable in the game is ''highly telegraphed with an orange glow", difference being that most others are either slower or have a move preceding them. You're trying to make it sound as if his SB is an oh-so-reactable and easy to see coming move because it shares the base mechanic of every other unblockable (again, really bad argument), when it's pretty much up there with the most difficult ones to do so. There's a reason why everyone hates stuff like Gladiator Zone/Toe Stab or Warlord Headbutt - 500ms Unblockables from neutral are stepping on the line. Whether they actually cross it depends on two things: how useful the move is and how punishable it is. Conq's is both very useful and hardly punishable.

A slight nerf is in order, in my opinion.


Now I don't want this to come across as me taking sides here. if you look back at discussions between me and instinct we basically never agree and tend to butt heads.
But potentially the reason he finds it so easy to escape/deal with is because he's played nothing but conq for so long. Just as i've played an absolute boat load of centurion and do not struggle with him. Never really did. I'm not saying this means conq is balanced or anything. Just saying that he probably has superb muscle memory with conq. And that's why it's easy for him to deal with.


LOL love all the conq mains saying he is balanced ��
I am rep 1 conqueror.Picked him as soon as S5 Started and I'm already ****ting on everyone except assassins.
Just shield bash or forward gb.
Repeat these moves for free win

Not to mention the fact that SB is un-punishable even after dodge ,��

Rep doesn't really mean anything in really any context. And just so you know the devs don't even begin looking at your matches for data till you are your opponent are above rep 1.
Relying only on bash will get you beat by anyone decent. And that's blatently false. there are heros that can punish it after a dodge. Granted there isn't a universal punish for it. but still.
everything in this game is punishable in some regard.

RenegadeTX2000
03-11-2018, 10:09 PM
Conqueror really doesn't need shield bash from a forward dodge if they buff his shield uppercut correctly with more universal changes like heavy on chip and possibly pausing stamina when blocking heavies, basically making heavies more rewarding to throw out. along with back dodge universal change and the way out of lock tech operates...

I would change Conqs kit around to making his flail actually his key tool and not his shield 24/7.

Also if he gets a superior block on forward dash I feel he should have been given a spinning shield uppercut type move that confirms into a heavy, keep his side dodge shield bash though.

His kit just isn't exciting to where it's at right now. and tweek zone to be slower on start up but quicker when he starts actually spinning the flail around and have it do more damage as it's held out longer.

WastedPunk
03-11-2018, 11:02 PM
Ways to fix his Shield Bash;
- Make it more telegraphed.Hell,even his forward dodge looks like a shield bash without the orange glow.
-Make it so that a light is guaranteed if you dodge but not a guardbreak.Im not sure if this is even possible but,Guarantee a light if you guess correctly and dodge but not a guardbreak.

-With the nerf,I would also rather have his Shield bash stamina depletion increased to 5-10 and the ability to use shield bash from an all guard block (like he was able to pre patch)

Baturai
03-11-2018, 11:21 PM
Boycotting COnq, i leave every game, when COnq is involved.

Shield stance free Heavy OK
Zone Free damage OK
Shield BASH ABUSE OK
Shieldbash Huge Range and Tracking Ok
Shieldbash Instant OK
Shieldbash not Punishable ok.
NOW.
WHERE IS THE Dogddamn OPPENING ?
This hero doesnt attack!! He is literally an "Offensive Active Turtle " wtf is wrong with Ubisoft?
Counterattacker and Vanguard at the sametime ? doesnt make sense. this is like 1+1= 4
He SHOULDNT BE ABLE 2 PARRY or GB
how can you gb when you are 2 handed ?


2. reduce Guard recovery. even his dodge is a ****IN GUARD...

ArchDukeInstinct
03-11-2018, 11:44 PM
LOL love all the conq mains saying he is balanced ��
I am rep 1 conqueror.Picked him as soon as S5 Started and I'm already ****ting on everyone except assassins.
Just shield bash or forward gb.
Repeat these moves for free win

Not to mention the fact that SB is un-punishable even after dodge ,��

Your anecdotal experience means nothing because that exact strategy isn't going to work at my level of play which is far from the top.


yeah you dodge the bash and then? you sit and wait, if you dont have a dodge attack. great. definition of safe move = unpunishable

That's not the case for most characters in the game.


who said warlods headbutt is more reactable? i specifically put it there because its hardly reactable but you still get a gb after dodgin (with conq? no.)
i said centurion's kick is very reactable, maybe learn to read

Nonetheless, Centurion's kick is only 100ms slower. What do you think happens when a timesnap replacement is finally added in and we're no longer missing 100ms of many attacks anymore?


conq hating? i have reputation 8 conq and i always loved the character, i was super happy about the rework but now winning is so easy that i stopped playing him. so the only human garbage here it's you, whining conq main that wants to win every match with ease

Is your single digit rep supposed to impress me? I'm a rep 34 conq who mostly plays duels. I was maining Conq since open beta and throughout year 1 when Conqueror was bottom B tier at best (aside from the beginning of season 1). I was even playing most days when superior block was accidentally removed pre-rework but yeah I totally just want free wins...


just disapperar from this conversation

Disappear from this game.


the other points have been dismissed by the other guys answering

The only thing that is dismissed is you, get out of here phony and take your anti-Conq/Highlander tears with you.


What a strawman argument. Literally every single unblockable in the game is ''highly telegraphed with an orange glow", difference being that most others are either slower or have a move preceding them.

Strawman argument? Whose argument did I misrepresent to avoid answering their real argument? Do you even know what the strawman fallacy is?
Shield bashes are preceded by either a side/forward dodge or a light/heavy for shield bash mixup. So wtf are you talking about?


You're trying to make it sound as if his SB is an oh-so-reactable and easy to see coming move because it shares the base mechanic of every other unblockable (again, really bad argument)

The only reactibility issues are caused by the removal of timesnap which is a general problem with the game not a Conq problem. It's still dodge-able on reaction even now.


when it's pretty much up there with the most difficult ones to do so. There's a reason why everyone hates stuff like Gladiator Zone/Toe Stab or Warlord Headbutt - 500ms Unblockables from neutral are stepping on the line.

What? I love gladiator toe stabs thrown out from neutral that's a free side heavy for me even with Conq's 800ms side dodge recovery. In fact, toe stab is a perfect example. This is a move that is basically suicide from neutral even though it's a 400ms attack because of how punishable it is. Thankfully it has other uses such as OOS pressure, interrupting slow attacks, and extra damage after a heavy lands. Gladiator can afford it sucking in neutral though because of the aforementioned uses and he has other tools such as superb stamina and an excellent feint game unlike Conqueror.


Whether they actually cross it depends on two things: how useful the move is and how punishable it is. Conq's is both very useful and hardly punishable.

How utterly simplistic.So basically you only want moves that are garbage because they're not useful at all or garbage because you'll take more damage than you'd potentially do if they react to your highly telegraphed move with a simple side dodge and guard break. And we wonder why there's a defense meta...


Boycotting COnq, i leave every game, when COnq is involved.

Shield stance free Heavy OK
Zone Free damage OK
Shield BASH ABUSE OK
Shieldbash Huge Range and Tracking Ok
Shieldbash Instant OK
WHERE IS THE OPPENING ?
This hero doesnt attack!!!!! wtf is wrong with Ubisoft?
Counterattacker and Vanguard at the sametime ? doesnt make sense.
He SHOULDNT BE ABLE PARRY or GB
how can you gb when you are 2 HANDED ?

2. reduce Guard recovery. even his dodge is a ****IN GUARD...

This is why I say these people are just mad that playing against Conq isn't a free win anymore because all their "balance" suggestions would make it exactly that.

RenegadeTX2000
03-11-2018, 11:54 PM
I'm not down to completely nerf conq, I just want things tweaked about him that would make him fit his quota better. a few adjustments.

swiss_soldier_1
03-12-2018, 12:20 AM
watching archduke trying so hard to defend something that everybody agrees its not ok its just laughable

please keep going

Hormly
03-12-2018, 12:31 AM
The SB nerf is inevitable. Defend it all youd like.

RenegadeTX2000
03-12-2018, 12:51 AM
if they nerf sb. he better get compensation like i've been stating. lol

Cliff_001
03-12-2018, 12:51 AM
Ooo look at all the highlander and conq nerf arguments going on right now, I want in but only if its about a dirty little pk main. That's something I'll argue about.

ArchDukeInstinct
03-12-2018, 01:24 AM
watching archduke trying so hard to defend something that everybody agrees its not ok its just laughable

please keep going

Is this feeble attempt at an ad populum fallacy all you have? Seriously? I'm truly embarrassed for you. Hopefully someone liberates your copy of For Honor from you and sends you back to Farmville.

ArchDukeInstinct
03-12-2018, 01:27 AM
He SHOULDNT BE ABLE 2 PARRY or GB
how can you gb when you are 2 HANDED ?

I think I should frame this one, this one is hilarious.

Photobomb9251
03-12-2018, 01:32 AM
Boycotting COnq, i leave every game, when COnq is involved.

Shield stance free Heavy OK
Zone Free damage OK
Shield BASH ABUSE OK
Shieldbash Huge Range and Tracking Ok
Shieldbash Instant OK
Shieldbash not Punishable ok.
NOW.
WHERE IS THE Dogddamn OPPENING ?
This hero doesnt attack!! He is literally an "Offensive Active Turtle " wtf is wrong with Ubisoft?
Counterattacker and Vanguard at the sametime ? doesnt make sense. this is like 1+1= 4
He SHOULDNT BE ABLE 2 PARRY or GB
how can you gb when you are 2 HANDED ?

2. reduce Guard recovery. even his dodge is a ****IN GUARD...

You do realize that all you're basically saying is to take everything away from him INCLUDING parry and guardbreak, right? Even a complete moron would know that parrying is CRITICAL to combating an unblockable attack from enemies, right? This post is literally the manifestation of the whiny, overdramatic losers that keep lingering around the fanbase and killing this game like the cancer cell that you are. All this is is an outcry to Conqueror getting stronger, proved by several of your ludicrous points saying crap like shieldbash not being punishable, the "huge range" of the shield bash, and the zone having free damage? Literally all the garbage that came spilling out of your keyboard just made you look like a total idiot. Thanks for being such a sore loser about a character getting like three new moves and some minor tweaks. Enjoy your matchmaking penalties, idiot.

Devils-_-legacy
03-12-2018, 01:38 AM
Imo Some of these ideas arnt balanced just a nurf bat I really hope they do tweek him at most some number changes stamina increase for miss sb or something along that line but really there's no point in killing the heros kit