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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 12:28 PM
Hi,

Since the patch i noticed Allied planes are faster and better, so suppose i fly in a K4 or A9 and i meet a Yak3 or La7 at the same altitude, do i stand a chance? The Russian pesks turn in less then a second and shoot your *** all over the place, you dont stand a chance!
Same thing if you use BnZ and dive on them, they ALWAYS notice you and turn away /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 12:28 PM
Hi,

Since the patch i noticed Allied planes are faster and better, so suppose i fly in a K4 or A9 and i meet a Yak3 or La7 at the same altitude, do i stand a chance? The Russian pesks turn in less then a second and shoot your *** all over the place, you dont stand a chance!
Same thing if you use BnZ and dive on them, they ALWAYS notice you and turn away /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 01:14 PM
Most allied planes are only effective up to 3000 meters. After that, the dreaded La-5 and La-7 (as well as the Yaks I believe) start to lose their edge, and the P-39 shouldn't be a very good altitude performer as well after having it's supercharger removed. So the answer is - if you're flying at 4-5Km you should be able to defeat them. Also, evading attacks from the six with the FW is relatively easy if you have altitude - use your superior dive and high speed elevator response to evade them.

Skyhawk44 wrote:
- Hi,
-
- Since the patch i noticed Allied planes are faster
- and better, so suppose i fly in a K4 or A9 and i
- meet a Yak3 or La7 at the same altitude, do i stand
- a chance? The Russian pesks turn in less then a
- second and shoot your *** all over the place, you
- dont stand a chance!
- Same thing if you use BnZ and dive on them, they
- ALWAYS notice you and turn away /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
-
-



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zethin
10-18-2003, 01:21 PM
I would be getting frusterated too.

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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 01:29 PM
Skyhawk44 wrote:
- suppose i fly in a K4 or A9 and i
- meet a Yak3 or La7 at the same altitude, do i stand
- a chance?

If your going one to one, then the answer is prob no, you don't stand much of a chance. The trick to neutering the wonder-wood VVS aircraft is to work in pairs. A straight forward dogfighting situation is just not what the LW birds are made for.

Having said that, it is possible to defeat these AC in a dogfight, but you have to be patient, because you'll have to out-pilot the other guy and that takes tons of practice.

In the short term; two good tactics for dealing w/ these birds are

1) Jink like hell, and use scissors to induce them to deplete their small supply of ammo.

2) Dive for the deck. The wonder wood breaks around 650km/h while you're metal frame can go 100km/h faster before coming apart.

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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 01:39 PM
if u get a plane on yo *** and your in the a9, just roll, they always seem to miss!

Plus when they get low on ammo, turn away and blast em with your 108!

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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 02:30 PM
actually 5000m late yaks and la7s are suppost to be dominant, NOT IN DAMAGE MODEL tho. The 109k is still the fastest plane at any alt if over reving the engine in manual. I really wish they would fix the total bs fms like the yak 190 and migs rollrates, makes the game not very fun when planes are doing such 0 sense of realism manuevers.

Hopefully in 1.2 final the majority of problems will be fixed im hoping but just dont know what else to expect

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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 03:32 PM
LOL, Obviously spoken from pilots with not enough patience. I am a Yak/LA pilot and the K4 can NOT be beat in this game in the right hands. Especially at above 4000.

If you want to learn how to fly the K4 just look for I/JG26 Heinrich or =FA=Rattlecat. These guys are simply amazing at E retention and getting every ounce of performance from their planes.

As far as the 190's; If you are in and A9, Just fly straight and slow down and let the VVS AC pour ALL of there ammo in you until he is out. Don't bother wasting energy maneuvering, You will come out without a scratch. Then if he dives, just point your nose down so you can go Mach 1 and catch him from 5km out. Oh, and don't worry about pulling up to late, You can do that at any speed from any altitude.

The yaks and LA's are absolute pigs at altitude including roll rate. Sometimes it is even difficult to even level out after a short dive above 5000k.

Give me a break guys.


PF-Coastie

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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 08:18 PM
I normally fly 109 K4 against yak3 and its really hard work to down an average yak. If u meet an ace u got to be an ace and expert marksman.

In the ace vs ace situation its impossible for the 109 k4 to dive away or out turn the yak3 since the acceleration is only marginally better and in a few secs the yak has caught up and the only way u can see the yak on your 6 is to turn and then he surely will get u.


But there is one chance, if u are a marksman shooter u can sacrifice your speed to do one single hard turn
( combatflaps and throttle down )to draw enough deflection and shoot the yak down. if u miss the best option ( I think )is to stay up, fly slow with combat flap in the vertical. If u master this slow and vertical ( high and low yoyos )tecnique u might be able to evade or get head on passes until u hit him ( or he u) or get a possibily to disengage.


I have often tried this tecnique and been able to convert the fight from turning to vertical to headon passes.

The yak is ofcourse also good in the vertical but its the most reasonable way for the 109 to fight and u will be "less" easy to shoot down than if u try to turn horisontal.
so learn to turn in slow speed.....And if u cant shoot yak aces u might startle yak noobs or averages.


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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 11:14 PM
Ow, the PURE JOY of early-war servers!!

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2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

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Buzz_25th
10-18-2003, 11:39 PM
Your best bet is to join the Russians../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 02:31 AM
Ill take metal over balsa wood any day /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Yeah...if u get in a level turn fight with VVS a/c's under 4000m i say just dive for the deck and hope he either gives up or break apart. In a Fw you should be able to maintain the dive speed longer (i think) so u can make yur escape.
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Message Edited on 10/18/0307:32PM by Steaks_361st

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 02:59 AM
We have all noticed changes in FMs as IL2 has progressed, some better than others, but I think, or it is my observation, that the designers have consistantly worked to simluate how the planes compaired to eachother.

For instacne, the 109s are still faster then the LaGG's and most everything else, but the La turns better and is more stable.

the FW190 flys like a brick, but carries a ridiculous amount of ammunition, the IL2s are slow and sluggish but can take allot of dammage and keep going.

The numbers may not always add to what the historical recourds say, but the charecteristics of the planes and how they faired against eachother seems to be very close to real pilot accounts, and IL2 has been consistant in that manor.

When users asked for a more acurate FW190, they got one, but the also got better La's to keep the balance right.

mabey in wrong.

ick

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XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 03:56 AM
Definately on the right track Ick. I agree with you for sure...before I bought FB, I spent a good month or more on the forums. I was ready to believe by the end that the VVS had some kinda super fighters and the Germans were hoplessly outmatched. That was never the case, although issues are present, they continue to get better in my opinion.

I've found the FW190 to be actually fairly agile up around 5000 meters. Moreso than the Russian aircraft for the most part. I've flown lots of La-5's and 7's and I've flown lots of 109s and 190s and I always would prefer to the 109s and 190s over the La's. The German planes have more firepower, are more sturdy, and aren't as easily affected by speed as the Russian planes are.

Sure I've been beaten a couple of times by a Russian plane that I don't think shoulda been able to follow me...but I can't be right all the time, can I http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 04:06 AM
I can see your frustration and confusion over the ongoing never-ending debate of Axis/Allied flight modling and what ever the case may be. Ironic, it is great to see these posts beneficial rather than an ego stroking affair of, "Top Gun " attitudes that have been around.
I can see the pluses and minuses in many aircraft both Axis/Allied alike, and the fundemential flying habits of the exceptionional pilots vs. the ones that use their aircraft inefectively.
I speak from experience and consider myself a decent pilot. This game has progresed from IL2 to IL2 FB and the changes go along. Some pilots opt to either scrap their current aircraft for a different one. Others have a passion for their aircraft and will spent the countless hours perfecting that particular bird to get the maximum benefits from it from patch to patch.
Bear in mind many of "nitche" flyers in here thus the phrase of Turn and Burners" or "Boom and Zoom" There will always someone accuse each of who has the "Uber" planes.
I usually fly the YAK-3 yet for balance I fly both Axis /Allied and have found the Allied aircraft are much easier "out of the box", less demanding of your pacience and give you a little instant gratification.
I Fly Axis aircraft in larger games because they to me are outside of my "Safety net" and gives me more time to think while flying and much is happening and I discover a different style of flying.
I have found the Rewards of both Axis and Allied. I have scored more points in an Axis aircraft due to its fabulous ammunition,durability, and ability to to withstand damage. Yet,I enjoy the nickle-dime dogfighting which is faster paced and to ME it is just a great time. It is a preference of what you enjoy better..
As a rule in my views, I like at least 1 kill per sortie in an Alied aircraft and at least 2-3 in an Axis bird. This or course rules out Micro-turners, Bombers and Jets both sides.

Buzz_25th
10-19-2003, 04:07 AM
Like now for instance.

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XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 05:08 AM
PF_Coastie wrote:

- LOL, Obviously spoken from pilots with not enough
- patience.
- As far as the 190's; If you are in and A9, Just fly
- straight and slow down and let the VVS AC pour ALL
- of there ammo in you until he is out. Don't bother
- wasting energy maneuvering, You will come out
- without a scratch. Then if he dives, just point your
- nose down so you can go Mach 1 and catch him from
- 5km out....

- Give me a break guys.


Give ME a break. I rarely get frustrated on this forum, but this post belongs in the toilet. Its pure sh1t. You have the balls to say this when you admittedly fly the super-turning, super-climbing Yak/La's.



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Message Edited on 10/19/0304:10AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 06:36 AM
You do have to admit though, in this game, everyone thinks the plane they fly is rash, and that all the other aicraft a super planes.

Someone has to be wrong here.

Maybe it's that all of us here spend so much time posting on the forums that none of us are actually any good when it comes to flying?

Harry Voyager

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XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 07:48 AM
HarryVoyager,

What I see is too many people making ridiculous posts with no basis in reality. And I do think there are alot of things that are agreed on as far as planes go, its just that not many people make objective posts. Instead they only complain about the problems with their favorite plane. I have posted numerous times that the 190 rolls too fast at high speeds, has too much elevator response at high speeds, and uses a simplified damage model that needs to be fixed (and is as far as I know). I have seen other 190 pilots say the same thing and you can find 100 threads about these issues. Now find me a thread where an La or Yak guy admits "my plane climbs too fast" or "turns too tight." It doesn't happen, never did. The Yak had a simplified DM up until 1.11 but I never heard one Yak driver say this was the case. Like I said in another post, I will gladly have the advantages of the 190 fixed along with the disadvantages like the limited view, auto-pitch providing inferior performance to manual, and the silly radiator drag.

Still, I think Migs catch fire too easily. I think the P-47 should be more stable when firing and should be a little faster at sea-level. I think the La's break up too easily and should be able to reach higher dive speeds. I think the 109's controls are damaged too easily. I think the Yak drivers should be able to see all of their gauges. I think the Mk.108 is a little too easy to hit with. Etc. And I have posted these opinions on several occasions.

Want I want is some objectivity, but I doubt it will happen. To be honest I have seen quite a few 190 guys say that they agree with things that need to be changed (for better or worse). I have seen alot of P-39 guys say that maybe their plane has some FM issues. But I have yet to see a single La or Yak driver admit that their plane may be overmodelled in any area. The 109 guys seem to fall into two catagories. One is fairly honest, they admit to advantages and point out disadvantages and have alot of charts and graphs to reinforce their statements. The other would have the 109 be an invincible rocket ship that kills planes by facing in their general direction.

HV you are right, someone has too be wrong here. Its the people who make ridiculous statements like "the 190 can take an entire load of ammo and come out unscratched." Or people who post out of self-interest (bias), ignorance, or just to sabotage/oppose any decent discussion about a certain plane. If you look hard enough sometimes you can tell the difference between a post with a sincere concern/complaint/suggestion, and the ones like I mentioned above. Unfortunately so much crap gets thrown up here that finding the truth can be like finding a needle in a hay-stack.

This post isn't directed at anybody in particular. I'm just venting frustration over the BS arguments about planes, and especially the Allied/Axis pi$$ing contests. There can be good discussions about aircraft, but unfortunately these are few and far between. Again, this post really isn't directed at anyone and may even be out of place in this thread, but I just wanted to vent.

Btw, I don't really post that much. Mostly it is a joke or I am trying to help someone. And I don't care about how good I am at flying in a video game, I just want to have a good time. Actually I have taken this far too seriously already. Its just that I remember the board being alot less hostile and full of self-serving BS.

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Message Edited on 10/19/0306:55AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 08:26 AM
Okay, alot of people fly offwhine and it may not be well known that AI aircraft don't have the same dive limits that humanoid simmers/simmerettes have. Last night I was in a BI~1 rocket plane battling 262s and my autopiloted plane went over 1000km/hr in dive and pulled out normally. No tuck over 700km/hr like when I fly it myself.

To get around this you have to turn off alot of the real features of the game, to make you more like AI. Like no spins and stalls and stuff. Not Good.


Steaks_361st::
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That is a common wish made by (usually non~British) FB simmers. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Buzz_25th
10-19-2003, 08:30 AM
Lexx,

I think you just invented a couple of words.

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XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 08:38 AM
thats does it, you are impeached.

Buzz_25th
10-19-2003, 08:41 AM
Does that mean I have to turn in my peaches?

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XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 08:43 AM
kyrule,

I apologise if I hit a nerve. I was only putting things in "my" perspective. I also consider myself a pretty good pilot. Not gr8, but good. I have seen some incredible things done with all planes from both sides that I never dreamed possible.

My reply was more a quick quip back at what i think is not getting to know a plane good enough and complaining about its performance.

Your points are absolutely correct in their entirity. I don't know if the yaks or la's climb too fast. But I do know a k4 and g2 will outclimb both of them if flown correctly. I am not a technical bookworm so I can't quote stats. All I know is what I observe in game and I call what I see.

Good post by the way, well put!

S!

PF-Coastie

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XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 09:34 AM
The LWhiner god-plane rhetoric is hardly conductive to a reasonable debate. Frankly, having seen what it takes to satisfy them in the Yak-1, most of the LWhiners could care less about historical accuracy than being able to lord over any pilot foolish enough to fly VVS fighters.

I'm sorry, but the German fighters were not untouchable, and the VVS aircraft were not sitting ducks in a shooting gallery, yet that seems to be the only thing most of the LWhiners what. The only concession I've seen to that was the very recent incident with the 190's roll rate, and that, only because it was ludicrously apparent the aircraft was overmodelled.

To be blunt, in the two years I have been on this forum, I have seen almost no honest debate from the majority of the LuftWhiners. To accuse the Red fliers of "lacking objectivity" is, to put it mildly, calling the kettle black.

Or, as they say, it only takes one side to start a war, but it takes two to end it.

Harry Voyager

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XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 09:52 AM
Harry Voyager::
-- The only concession I've seen to that was the very
-- recent incident with the 190's roll rate, and that, only
-- because it was ludicrously apparent the aircraft was
-- overmodelled.

er no, Luftwhiners didn't like that cos the new "Fokker" roll rate must be compensated for in the joystick settings or you over roll and when at a fast closure rate over rolling messes up targeting the Yak. Not being able to hit the Yak was not worth the new and improved Fokker roll rate.

Granted, not many Luftwhiners whined about the Fb109 Email outclimbing the Fb109K in the original FB, just whines about the General Dynamics I~16 Fighting Falcon outclimbing the 109K. How they let those two slip into the FB is beyond me.

But I don't think its quite fair to condemn the whole sim cos a single slip up.