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View Full Version : Parry reward should be based on attack speed, not type (light/heavy)



Kamen42
03-07-2018, 07:47 PM
I really feel like the punish widow after a parry should be based on the speed of the parried attack, not on if it is considered heavy or light.

There are several attacks that are marked as heavy, but regarding speed they are faster than some lights. Take a warden zone for example. Or Berserker, Orochi, PK, new Kensei zone. These are just as fast or even faster than light attacks. All are fast and quite difficult to parry yet the reward for parrying is the same as if you parry the Shugoki charged heavy.

XJadeDragoonX
03-07-2018, 08:13 PM
I'm good with this.... Yeah do that. Sometimes you get lucky and parry a lightning fast zone and get what? A light. Thanks for nothing lol

Devils-_-legacy
03-07-2018, 08:26 PM
They have only just got rid of the defensive meta I hope they don't put it back

Kamen42
03-07-2018, 10:27 PM
They have only just got rid of the defensive meta I hope they don't put it back

I wouldn't want to have defensive meta back either. It's just that some of these moves are really easy way to get damage. Most people are barely able to block them. You throw these moves and you risk almost nothing. You don't even have to thing too much if it is the right time to use them. They hit so quickly that they beat almost anything. Even if you get parried, you get hit once by a light attack and that's it.

BarbeQMichael
03-07-2018, 10:49 PM
Yeah it is pretty broken that parrying a 500ms zone rewards with light attack, but parrying a 600ms (+100ms guardchange which doesn't come with zones) rewards you with heavy. Or just 2x 600ms attacks from different heroes, different rewards. This game currently favours fast attackers in general so there is not much competetive play with slower ones.

Netcode_err_404
03-08-2018, 12:00 AM
im saying this exact thing since april 2017.

Good to know after 1 full year someone noticed that lol

Kamen42
03-08-2018, 12:27 AM
im saying this exact thing since april 2017.

Good to know after 1 full year someone noticed that lol

I have never actually heard anyone say anything about it.

Anyway, now it became much more apparnet, because in the past year, the standard reward for parrying anything was a Guardbreak.

Muitcha-melodia
03-08-2018, 12:38 AM
It is a good idea, but it has too much of the defense meta into it. I think we should try the new system a bit more.

Devils-_-legacy
03-08-2018, 12:39 AM
The standard for a parry used to be a gb from that you could get a heavy or a instant kill from ledge or enviroment like spikes. this idea imo would make a parry more rewarding then attacking again I'll maybe agree about some zones like pks but I thought that was a light but not the bit about beserker I can't think of one his heavy's the fast other then his infinite combo and there not that hard to block or parry

Kamen42
03-08-2018, 02:33 PM
I'll maybe agree about some zones like pks but I thought that was a light but not the bit about beserker I can't think of one his heavy's the fast other then his infinite combo and there not that hard to block or parry

I was talking about Berserker's zone, which 500ms. His infinite combo heavies are fine.


It is a good idea, but it has too much of the defense meta into it. I think we should try the new system a bit more.

Well, this is not the only thing that bothers me on the new system. I think the reward for parrying some attacks is not enough, but on the other hand I think some parries give you greater reward than they deserve. Some light attacks are so slow and telegraphed that I believe the reward should be smaller. Take Orochi or Highlander side light for example. 600 ms, easy to read and they have to commit. Highlander's second light is even longer at 700ms. Then take Centurion heavy. 600 ms opener and 500 ms second heavy. They can execute, but it can be feinted completely or soft-feinted into GB. You can't safely go for a parry because you risk getting GBd if they feint. Yet the reward for defending the slower attack is higher.

Another example are the side dodge attacks. Take Berserker, Nobushi and PK for example. Berserker side dodge attack - 600 ms, light, 17 dmg. Nobushi - 600 ms, heavy, 25 dmg. PK - 500 ms, heavy, 15 dmg + guaranteed 16 dmg bleed. Berserker has slowest attack that does the least damage, but if it gets parried, the punishment is worse than for the other two. Same punishment is for parrying Orochi dodge light, which is 600ms, but at least does 25 dmg (still, it's the same speed and damage as Nobushi's HEAVY dodge attack). PK on the other hand has the fastest most damaging move out of these four, yet the reward for parry is not that good.

These are just a few examples.

My suggestion:

If an attack is 500 ms or less, the reward window for parrying is 900 ms, the same you now get for parrying a light. If the attack speed 600ms or more, make the reward window 600 ms, same as parrying a heavy gives you now. Originally I though 600 ms or less should give you the long window, but that would be basically buffing the defense playstyle. 600 ms would include all the attacks it includes now and some more too.
If it is for 500 ms or less, it would cover all the problematic heavies (mainly zones), but it would make some slow lights easier to use (e.g. the Orochi and HL lights, which I mentioned earlier), since they would would be included in the less severe parry punish group.

Here are some examples of the changes this would mean:

500ms or faster Heavy attacks which would get long punish window (not a complete list):
- PK zone
- Orochi zone
- Warden zone
- Aramusha zone - first hit
- Shaman dodge heavy
- PK dodge heavy
- Centurion second non-charged heavy (non-charged opener would stay unchanged)

600 ms or slower lights that would be moved from long punish window to short punish window (again, not complete list):
- All orochi lights except top opener
- Berserker dodge lights
- Highlander lights in defensive stance
- Nobushi lights except side opener
- Valkyrie light side finishers
- Raider basic lights (not dodge light)
- Gladiator non-first lights
- Lawbringer side opener

As you can see this would not be a general buff to the defensive play. While this would make some safe moves a bit riskier to use, it would also lower the risk of other moves, that are almost never used, because the reward is usually not worth the risk.

Edit:
Additional thought on the Berserker zone. This one is a bit specific. The first hit is 500ms, the next three hits are 200ms each. But if you block the first hit, it is usually pretty easy to parry the last hit. Which basically gives you 1100ms total. Since the last hit is 200 ms long, the suggested parry change means you get the long punish window if you parry it. However, the Zerker zone does 30 damage while the others do 20, so I think it is fine to keep the long punish window for parrying the last hit of Zerker zone.

Charmzzz
03-08-2018, 02:45 PM
FYI: PK Zone first hit is a Light attack, if it gets parried the 900ms window is confirmed. Only the second attack is a Heavy, which is completely fine imo as it is super telegraphed.

Kamen42
03-08-2018, 03:01 PM
FYI: PK Zone first hit is a Light attack, if it gets parried the 900ms window is confirmed. Only the second attack is a Heavy, which is completely fine imo as it is super telegraphed.

I did not know that. I thought all the zone attacks are considered heavy. I agree the second hit is telegraphed, but since it takes 900ms, it would still fall into the short punish window group. In that case the PK zone would not be impacted.

Charmzzz
03-08-2018, 03:10 PM
I did not know that. I thought all the zone attacks are considered heavy. I agree the second hit is telegraphed, but since it takes 900ms, it would still fall into the short punish window group. In that case the PK zone would not be impacted.

Have look here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0

Every zone attack is listed as L or H.

Concerning the PK Dodge-Attack, true, it is 500ms. But it only deals 15-20 Base Damage (+15 Bleed if you use the followup). Thing is it was a heavy hitting attack on release, people complained and it got a pretty hard damage nerf. If you want it to be punishable with a heavy attack - let it deal heavy damage again (25-30 Base Damage).

What I am trying to say: the input button does not always define the damage / speed of an Attack. E.g. on PK I think they used the heavy input on dodge attack because her Deflect followup is a Light, so you cannot fail with the input in the heat of combat.

Devils-_-legacy
03-08-2018, 03:43 PM
Kamen zerk zone is a light

Charmzzz
03-08-2018, 04:01 PM
Kamen zerk zone is a light

Sure? I remember it being a "heavy" when I parry it. Spreadsheet shows it as a heavy, too..

Devils-_-legacy
03-08-2018, 04:04 PM
That spreadsheet says it's a light the forward and back one I may be wrong but I thought they changed it as it no longer ledges

Zone
Z, S, B L9e
Z, S, C L 7e (3 times)

Charmzzz
03-08-2018, 04:11 PM
Spreadsheet shows this for me on Berserker:

Z, S, B H 9
Z, S, C H 7 (3 times)

And for backwards: Z,S,Bk, H 15 / H 10 / H 15

Devils-_-legacy
03-08-2018, 04:14 PM
Fair enough That's weird it's showing light for me your right
When Zone Attack is parried, Berserker will now use the shorter “Heavy parried” reaction. I didn't relise they changed it

PDXGorechild
03-08-2018, 04:16 PM
My suggestion:

If an attack is 500 ms or less, the reward window for parrying is 900 ms, the same you now get for parrying a light. If the attack speed 600ms or more, make the reward window 600 ms, same as parrying a heavy gives you now. Originally I though 600 ms or less should give you the long window, but that would be basically buffing the defense playstyle. 600 ms would include all the attacks it includes now and some more too.
If it is for 500 ms or less, it would cover all the problematic heavies (mainly zones), but it would make some slow lights easier to use (e.g. the Orochi and HL lights, which I mentioned earlier), since they would would be included in the less severe parry punish group.
.

Excellent idea. This would level the playing field and sort the problem out in one I think.

Kamen42
03-08-2018, 04:18 PM
Concerning the PK Dodge-Attack, true, it is 500ms. But it only deals 15-20 Base Damage (+15 Bleed if you use the followup). Thing is it was a heavy hitting attack on release, people complained and it got a pretty hard damage nerf. If you want it to be punishable with a heavy attack - let it deal heavy damage again (25-30 Base Damage).

What I am trying to say: the input button does not always define the damage / speed of an Attack. E.g. on PK I think they used the heavy input on dodge attack because her Deflect followup is a Light, so you cannot fail with the input in the heat of combat.

Have you ever seen someone NOT use the follow up? There is no need to not use it. If you hit the dodge heavy, the bleed is 16 free damage (1 for the hit + 15 bleed) without any real effort. It is very safe to use and does 31 damage (36 if it is forward dodge).

Take Orochi and Berserker dodge attack. They are 600ms, they do 17 dmg and they are lights. They are slower, do about half the damage and if the opponent parries them, the punish is bigger. And you want to make the PK's attack even stronger. If it did 25 dmg + bleed, you would make it 500ms attack that does 40 damage (45 for forward dodge attack). You know what also does 40 damage? Highlander offensive heavy, 800ms long. Warden top heavy, 900ms. Kensei heavy 900ms (1000ms top heavy). Aramusha top heavy finisher, 900ms. Shaman unblockable finisher, 1100ms.
You know what else does 45 damage? Not a lot of things, and all are quite hard to pull of.

Combine it with the PK's 500ms dash recovery and you have a new PK strategy:

Step 1) Keep out of enemy reach
Step 2) Wait for enemy to attack
Step 3) Dodge the attack while getting free 40 damage
Step 4) Go back to Step 1) and repeat until enemy bleeds out

Probably the only character who can get 40 damage from dodge is Valkyrie. However, you need to time the dodge so your superior block counters an enemy attack (basically a deflect), then you can use the heavy input for 1dmg + 20 bleed, and then you can side dodge for another 17 damage attack. So basically you only get 38 damage, you need two dodges and only if you need to get a "deflect" first. Compare it with your suggested PK's "Dodge once whenever for 40 damage".

Regarding the input part, that makes sense, but it does not change my mind that the parry punish should be based on attack speed, not it's type.

PDXGorechild
03-08-2018, 04:18 PM
Sure? I remember it being a "heavy" when I parry it. Spreadsheet shows it as a heavy, too..

Patch notes from 1.19:

"Zone Attack -

4th strike now causes a Light hit reaction (was Heavy hit reaction), and the connection to Infinite Light Attack afterwards was made 100ms later."

Charmzzz
03-08-2018, 04:24 PM
Patch notes from 1.19:

"Zone Attack -

4th strike now causes a Light hit reaction (was Heavy hit reaction), and the connection to Infinite Light Attack afterwards was made 100ms later."

Ok, but only the last hit is a Light. Every other is Heavy and so uses the Heavy parry recovery time.

@Kamen: Oh yes! Bring the dodge-heavy-attack PK's in! I want free parries off any feint I throw at them! And on the rest of your comment: up the dodge-attack damage on the other characters, because dodge attacks are ONLY good for one purpose: punishing melee moves (mostly from neutral). At least this is true in higher MMR, if you dodge or dodge-attack too often you will get parried and GBed ALOT.

Kamen42
03-08-2018, 04:26 PM
To end all discussion about Berserker Heavy/Light zone, I incidentally have a video :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M3F9-EBCmE

At 0:17 you can see that the zone does heavy 9 + heavy 7(x3) damage. (Increase by gear in the video.) The last hit is heavy.


Patch notes from 1.19:

"Zone Attack -

4th strike now causes a Light hit reaction (was Heavy hit reaction), and the connection to Infinite Light Attack afterwards was made 100ms later."

I think the "Light hit reaction" means that the enemy takes less time to recover if they are hit.

Kamen42
03-08-2018, 04:39 PM
Bring the dodge-heavy-attack PK's in! I want free parries off any feint I throw at them!

That is exactly what is happening to other characters :D And I would especially mention Valkyrie, Gladiator, Raider, who all have 500ms dodge attacks, but lights. And look at the damage they get for it. 17, 20, 18. Can you tell me a reason why PK should be special and get better treatment than these? Or Orochi and Zerker, whose dodge attack is 600ms? Why exactly should she get a move that is used in the same situation, does a lot more damage but has lower risk?


Up the dodge-attack damage on the other characters, because dodge attacks are ONLY good for one purpose: punishing melee moves (mostly from neutral).

I am not opposed to that idea. But until that happens, my point stands.

Felheric
03-09-2018, 10:19 AM
Its wrong to punish pk who side dashes attack with parry, you need to punish it with dodge of his side attack and gb which is 100% guarantee, Please people dont be narrow minded and try think before calling for nerf on something. Set peacekeper bot lvl 2 in custom match and try it yourself once you get timing cuz it may warry on your char, you will love it. I tried on almost every char so its not only assasin think, even shoguki can bait it and side dash gb him even it felt more strict than for example warden (you dont need to side dash shoulder bash you can get gb which is next to wall free top heavy just be little bit later with input, same for conq etc).. Pk has massive recovery on his whifed dash attacks and no follow up.

This is example what you cant do on valk, orochi, zerker and co. as they side dodge attacks is combo starters , as they can input next thing as follow up and you will get hitted.

So what we have here is bassicaly bait side dodge attack on most chars is either heavy punish parry or free gb punish on pk which can lead to free ledge if you like it edgy :P

As mr. Charmzzz said above dodge attacks is extremely risky way of playing. I wish ubisoft would give us that training arena they promising for half year, I bet there is a lot thing people dont know about or dont know optimal way around it. As this side or forward dodge heavy of pk is one of them.

Cheers

Felheric
03-09-2018, 10:58 AM
update: You want to dodge gb of opposite side of where is pk side dash attacking coming from. I am assasin player so I m used to deflect from time to time to get fancy schmancy feeling. But its completely free if you dodge opposite side from dash attack even for big hitbox guy shugoki which i found stricter as posted above because i was dodging same side.

Beware orochi players as hurricane blast its not guarantee if you opt go for deflect.

Xil_h
03-09-2018, 01:07 PM
I like the idea of basing the parry punish on attack speed rather than type.
Regarding the fear of a defensive meta I don't think it would get more defensive. I actually think that people will attack more. Currently my opponents start deflecting and parrying my lights regularly, forcing me to play more defensive. (I started to main Nobushi, am still a beginner tho :D) Maybe it's due to the servers having better stability to ensure better parrys.

Knight_Raime
03-10-2018, 03:45 AM
I really feel like the punish widow after a parry should be based on the speed of the parried attack, not on if it is considered heavy or light.

There are several attacks that are marked as heavy, but regarding speed they are faster than some lights. Take a warden zone for example. Or Berserker, Orochi, PK, new Kensei zone. These are just as fast or even faster than light attacks. All are fast and quite difficult to parry yet the reward for parrying is the same as if you parry the Shugoki charged heavy.


Most lights in the game are 500ms. There are no heavies in the game faster than this. People really need to quit with this blatent claim.
To your idea no. hard no. if fast attacks were hard punished it would make people go back to turtling and using just safe attacks.


I'm good with this.... Yeah do that. Sometimes you get lucky and parry a lightning fast zone and get what? A light. Thanks for nothing lol

Considering the fact that zones always come from the same direction and most zones can't be feinted why on earth should you get a high punish for something so predictable and risky?

XJadeDragoonX
03-10-2018, 04:15 AM
Most lights in the game are 500ms. There are no heavies in the game faster than this. People really need to quit with this blatent claim.
To your idea no. hard no. if fast attacks were hard punished it would make people go back to turtling and using just safe attacks.



Considering the fact that zones always come from the same direction and most zones can't be feinted why on earth should you get a high punish for something so predictable and risky?

There's a difference between predictable and reactable. No offense, but how could you possibly say a zone attack is predictable and RISKY? There's is 0 risk involved in most zones in the game. Pk zone risky? Warden zone risky? Orochi zone risky? Suuuuuuure

Knight_Raime
03-10-2018, 04:37 AM
There's a difference between predictable and reactable. No offense, but how could you possibly say a zone attack is predictable and RISKY? There's is 0 risk involved in most zones in the game. Pk zone risky? Warden zone risky? Orochi zone risky? Suuuuuuure

I just explained. it comes from the same direction. every. single. time. and since most can't feint their zone it's a move they have to commit to. The fastest zones in the game excluding pk's canceled is 500ms. As I mentioned in my other part most light attacks in the game are 500ms. if you're struggling to react to an attack thats as fast as basic attacks in this game and it's always coming from the same direction that's a you issue. Not a game issue.

Of your list pk's is the only one that's not really risky.