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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 05:48 PM
http://www.pioneeraero.co.nz/lavochkin_la-5.htm

Lavochkin La-5FN

Powerplant 1215kW (1630hp) M-82FN radial engine


According to IL-2 site it's 1850 hp... Go figure. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 05:48 PM
http://www.pioneeraero.co.nz/lavochkin_la-5.htm

Lavochkin La-5FN

Powerplant 1215kW (1630hp) M-82FN radial engine


According to IL-2 site it's 1850 hp... Go figure. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Buzz_25th
10-18-2003, 06:02 PM
That site was never any good for being accurate. Ther was an early/late La5FN. We have the late version in FB which is almost an La7.

Here's a better site.

http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/Lavochkin.html

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25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 06:03 PM
Lukki wrote:
- Lavochkin La-5FN
And the La-7 and La-9/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

TY

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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 06:24 PM
Yes Buzz, but look at the engine Marsh's site lists as being in the La5FN. It lists the engine as an Ash-82FN (same as object viewer) with an augmented rating of 1850hp at 2500rpm. The normal max is only 1650hp.


<CENTER>http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/FB_JG27.jpg

Buzz_25th
10-18-2003, 06:30 PM
You know Oleg will never take away performance from the La series planes. That's his baby../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 07:28 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- You know Oleg will never take away performance from
- the La series planes. That's his baby.

You may be right.

What I find most interesting about Marsh's site is the performance tests he list from NII-VVS, the Russian test facility. I emailed him a while ago and asked where he got those charts from. He told me he had copies of the original tests and the translations.

The tests on the three La7's indicate that the climb and turn rates we see in FB, especially for the 3x20mm version, are very optimistic.



<CENTER>http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/FB_JG27.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 07:28 PM
Actually Oleg is a self professed 109 flyer.

I think technological limitations are what is hurting some of the other planes and not the turn fighters like the La's and some of the Yak's. Nonetheless, they are much less super than before.

Anyone in a 109 tried to take one of them in a power dive. You will pull out...they won't.

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Buzz_25th
10-18-2003, 07:33 PM
I didn't mean the La's were his personal ride. I know he likes the 109's. I meant the La's are the baby of Russia.

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25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 07:40 PM
Now now, IMHO the La series should only become better - not worse - cranck it up !

lol - why ?
cause i like it ! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Anyway, what would a couple of hundred hp do...
la7 is one of the fastest already! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Another thing to remind yourself of is that NO plane is ever the same (not even when one is coming off the assembly line right after the other) - and - after a couple of flights and fights they will grow apart even further.

Would be nice to have some randomness to the planes in-game i think /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif keeps you on your toes /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 08:08 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- I didn't mean the La's were his personal ride. I
- know he likes the 109's. I meant the La's are the
- baby of Russia.


OM favourite aircraft is the FW190 (any version).

He told us himself, during the live chat and interviews he had with the community a long time ago.


To him and 1C, the LA ia just another aircraft.
Nothing's wrong with it as far as they'r concerned, and since the concern is exclusively they'rs, i'm sure you can believe in they'rs judgement.


After all, no improvements were made on the 1.11 for the LA. (read the ReadMe)



Cartrix however, is another story.
He likes the big gunzzzzzzzzzzz
Big badda boom

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Buzz_25th
10-18-2003, 08:13 PM
Really? How do you explain in all the patches in both games the La's have never been undermodeled in any area? Can you say that about any other plane, except maybe the Yaks?

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25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 08:30 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- Really? How do you explain in all the patches in
- both games the La's have never been undermodeled in
- any area? Can you say that about any other plane,
- except maybe the Yaks?



Its not that simple or clean.
I can give you three dates, when the LA was severely overmoddeled.

1. Straight out if the package.
In the first installenment of IL-2 (unpatched), the LA could climb above anything and anybody without loosing power.

2. Patch 1.04
Most of the "Uberness" of the LA was removed for a more realistic behaviour, but it still was too much.

3. IL-2 Forgotten Battles 1.0
The performance hit the LA recieved, was finnaly perfect, but what the 5Fn lost, was gained, alltough not entirely and with a much different behaviour, by the LA7.



In short, in the first installement of the game, we were having performance that not even an LA7 could achieve, but with enough time for the game to mature, this tendency has turned into blissfull perfection for all version of the LA.


Too much of a good thing is allways bad, too little, is a fatality.


Do you understand?

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Buzz_25th
10-18-2003, 08:41 PM
The question was when was it ever undermodeled . Like almost every other plane at one point.

Are you saying the La7 is where it should be now? No more changes to it? Just curious.

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25th_Buzz
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Hawgdog
10-18-2003, 09:06 PM
resev wrote:
- Nothing's wrong with it as far as they're concerned,
- and since the concern is exclusively theirs, I'm
- sure you can believe in their judgement.


I cleaned it up but this has got to be the quote of the month!
I LOVE IT!
I am certainly going to work this into conversation this week. Excellent. And man...ain't it the truthhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif!!
That sounds like something George C. Scott would say in that movie.


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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 09:34 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- The question was when was it ever undermodeled .
- Like almost every other plane at one point.
-
- Are you saying the La7 is where it should be now?
- No more changes to it? Just curious.



Yes, indeed if there's an aircraft that was never undermoddeled, that would be the LA.

The LA7 is has pefect as it can be............for now.
It realy ins't up to us to discern if it is or ins't.
All we have to speculate, are numbers, given from dubious sources.
I don't mean dubious because they may be unreliable or not, but for every positive reaction you get from a reliable source, you will allways get a second negative reaction, also from a reliable source.
What can we do?
We can continue to ensure that 1C is hard at work, that's all we can do.
After all, alltough most of us try to get informations, from the little time we have to spare, beetween work, family and private time.
1C, however, are the ones who keep they'r work hours for the sake of the game, go to they'r familys, and probably use whatever private time they have left, trying to get even more information.
That's dedication, and not much apreciated by the community nowadays.



I can clearly remember an extremely important (for me) situation, where i fought with tooth and claw, to get the P-39 to be as realistic as possible, since it was never overmoddeled, but quite the opposite.
However, and when i return from a 7 months forced web celibacy, i find an ingratefull community, screaming bloody murder, because the P-39 appears, to they'r eyes, overmoddeled.
Did they ever thought that it might actualy be the other crafts that were over/undermoddeled?
No! Because they can only see the supposed flaws on they'r rides of choice, and anything that opposes to they'r absolute supremacy of the skyes, must be eliminated.


Its an old topic, and one i've grown sick off with time, and pretty much has happened with Oleg himself, since he can have a respectfull conversation with grown up (mentally) community members from the Russian forums, but he pretty much refuses to post around here, because most of these arses are ungratefull little brats who do little else but whine about they'r aircrafts of choice not beeing able to completely dominate the skyes!


I remember another messy story, where i got myself deep in crap to my knees, because of a thread started in the good old Pilot Lounge, about the visual accuity of the FW190, not beeing what THEY thought it should be.
It even got so messy, that Fishdog the community manager had to interfere.
I was even labbeled as a VVS crony, me of all peaople.
Eventualy, after i explained everything like they were 4 year olders, they understood the point, and even Fishdog apologized to me.


This whole discussion of FM's can get ugly over time, and one must be able to discern true knowledge, from ambition of knowledge, wich is pretty much what a great deal of this community is suffering from.



Sorry for taking so long, i had a lot to say! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 09:53 PM
I don't really know that Oleg likes the 109 as much as he says. Do you?? I always felt it was clever propaganda aimed at quelling the FM complaints from the 109 FM critics. Who is better at propaganda that the Russians?? Any arguments about FMs in the 109 series has always been met with "But Oleg likes the 109 and flies them online even"!! How convenient. Of course I could be wrong but I'm just a suspicious person by nature. Been around the block a few times.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

Buzz_25th
10-18-2003, 10:01 PM
resev,

Thanks for your comments. To be honest, i've been confused lately if the La's were correct or not. If you remember from early on in IL2 I said I liked the La's, and didn't really care if anybody called them noob planes or not.

I don't however want to fly an overmodeled plane. If the plane is correct, but was just a dam good plane. Then everybody can cry all they want, and it doesn't bother me.

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25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 10:08 PM
mortoma wrote:
- I don't really know that Oleg likes the 109 as much
- as he says. Do you?? I always felt it was clever
- propaganda aimed at quelling the FM complaints from
- the 109 FM critics. Who is better at propaganda that
- the Russians??



That was an unnecessary argument, and one you should reflect upon, before you edit your post, or a moderator feels forced to edit it for you, since it contains unnecessary and political content wich could pretty much get you "in trouble".


And BTW, i said 190 not 109.

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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 10:15 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- resev,
-
- Thanks for your comments. To be honest, i've been
- confused lately if the La's were correct or not. If
- you remember from early on in IL2 I said I liked the
- La's, and didn't really care if anybody called them
- noob planes or not.
-
-
- I don't however want to fly an overmodeled plane.
- If the plane is correct, but was just a dam good
- plane. Then everybody can cry all they want, and it
- doesn't bother me.



That's precisely what you should allways do.
It means very little what sides you are flying for.
What matters, is building something good and respectfull around it.

S!

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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 10:59 PM
Resev, when you say: "This whole discussion of FM's can get ugly over time, and one must be able to discern true knowledge, from ambition of knowledge, wich is pretty much what a great deal of this community is suffering from."

I'm just wondering, when you fought tooth and claw because you thought the P-39 was under-modelled, what did you base your opinion on?





<CENTER>http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/FB_JG27.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 11:08 PM
resev wrote:

- The LA7 is has pefect as it can be............for
- now.

Still a 30m/sec climbrate is far from correct. This is IMHO the most important thing that needs to be changed on the La-7 FM. That's all I have to say about that!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 11:36 PM
Chadburn wrote:
- Resev, when you say: "This whole discussion of FM's
- can get ugly over time, and one must be able to
- discern true knowledge, from ambition of knowledge,
- wich is pretty much what a great deal of this
- community is suffering from."
-
- I'm just wondering, when you fought tooth and claw
- because you thought the P-39 was under-modelled,
- what did you base your opinion on?



Data.
A third edition of the P-39Q1 flight manual, wich Oleg didn't realy need since he had the first and second editions, but he welcomed it reghardless, since, excess reliable information, is far better than no information at all.

Requested support and opinion of a few aeronautics engineers.

Airline pilots, and private owners.

And a few other sources,

I don't realy remember them all anymore, i've been 7 months offline, and i realy couldn't afford to eat and breathe IL-2 every second of my busy days.

Hard and dedicated work in short.

I still have the manual, it was given to me by one of my squad's comrad.

http://resev.freewebspace.com/images/p-39-manual-cover.gif

If you don't see the image, click the red X, and copy and paste the url into the adress bar.

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XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 05:09 PM
Thanks Resev, it sounds like you did your homework. The only problem I find though, is that doing homework and submitting info doesn't always result in changes anyway.
The forward view out ot the 190 is a classic example.

The concern about FM and DM accuracy is pretty much over for me. FB is the best WWII game available, but who knows how accurate it really is. From IL2 through to the current patch, the 109's FM and DM have been all over the map. Who knows why there has been such a wide variation, and after a while, who cares. Historical accuracy seems to play some role in the changes, but other factors seem to be at work as well.

<CENTER>http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/FB_JG27.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 05:29 PM
i always thought the P39 was pretty much a dog. slow, couldnt turn, but then i get in this game it and outclimbs me in a 190A9 at 3k, and i couldnt shake it... but hey, if its that good.. ok.. lol

LA7 is nuts in this game, if it with even a novice pilot get behind ya you pretty much toast, especially if your below 3-5k...

i used to try the 109s, but found them to be very boggie, espcially the K which was supposed to be one of the fastest prop planes of WW2.. cant wait for the 152 to come out, it should be able to outrun anyone... kurt even didnt to p51s... and we all know P51s are one of the fastest props of ww2...

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 05:31 PM
Chadburn wrote:
- Thanks Resev, it sounds like you did your homework.
- The only problem I find though, is that doing
- homework and submitting info doesn't always result
- in changes anyway.


I never realy did expect to get direct feedback from 1C, just because a Joe Somebody (me) had, said, or presented his opinions and trinkets and concerns, about an aircraft in particular.

What i did, i did it to see what 1C thought of what i had, and not exactly to make use of it. Thinking like that would have got me nowehere fast, and stall in the end.

When one does not feel, that an aircraft ins't reacting acordingly to what they tought it should, one should find ways to understand if the problem is:

1. With the aircraft IRL.
2. With the numbers printed on paper. (to see if the numbers lived up to the claims IRL).
3. If its the programmers fault
4. Or, the best for last, if one is plain and simply, not using the aircraft, the way it was suppoed to be used.


My little research got me a small token of appreciation from 1C.

Not from beeing right or wrong, but from my dedication towards the game's accuracy, and the community surrounding the game.

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XyZspineZyX
10-20-2003, 09:53 AM
robban75 wrote:
-
- resev wrote:
-
-- The LA7 is has pefect as it can be............for
-- now.
-
- Still a 30m/sec climbrate is far from correct. This
- is IMHO the most important thing that needs to be
- changed on the La-7 FM. That's all I have to say
- about that!


Yea robban75 you are right. Climb rate of La7 is a big mistake. I wonder if Oleg Team will correct this bird in future addon. But i really doubt http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Everything is allright, isn't ?

XyZspineZyX
10-20-2003, 10:07 AM
The climrate is off so is the max brakeup speed and damage model seems too strong for a la7, but oleg did a good job with the elevator stick pressure, he needs to add it to alot of other planes in the game along with aileron stick pressure and add the proper E bleed from extended alierons also quick max aileron movements decreases effectiveness any pilot knows this.

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XyZspineZyX
10-20-2003, 10:14 AM
Buzz is right.

Our '1943' La-5FN is actually a late '44 La-5FN with four fuel tanks and all metal wings, plus new cowling design which allows longer emergency power.

The 1943 La-5FNs had wooden wings and three fuel tanks, with a flight range of around 500km. Check the object viewer and you'll see our La-5FN has a range more than 600km - which are the figures for a 460 litre w/ four fuel tanks - a late La-5FN, produced when the La-7s were already flying.




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