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HazelrahFirefly
03-06-2018, 03:16 AM
If he does the top unblockabale he is uninterruptible, but if he feints it to the side he is... ALSO UNINTERRUPTIBLE??

Give me a break, devs. At least the Ara you can stagger most of the time. This means that if the Kensei attempts to do the top unblockable your only choice is to roll away and hope they don't do that new chase down move.

AkenoKobayashi
03-06-2018, 03:23 AM
First of all, rude.

Secondly, for the love of ****, Kensei does NOT have uninterruptable top finishers. He has unblockable, NOT uninterruptable. His side heavies and all light finishers are uninterruptable, but NOT his TOP heavy.

Vakris_One
03-06-2018, 03:33 AM
Why is it so hard to actually learn about the Kensei before coming to the forums to cry about him. Seriously, it's like some people never even met a Kensei before Season 5 so he's like completely alien to them.

HazelrahFirefly
03-06-2018, 05:34 AM
I tried, against a bot. I simply still don't see what to do. He's got range, mobility, the kit, severe tracking, and last second feints.

Protos_88
03-06-2018, 07:39 AM
yeh he have the worst dodge... still I think dodge is to op, and this uninterruptible...

DoodTheMan
03-06-2018, 07:40 AM
Eh, uninterruptible-unblockable, tomato-potato.

CandleInTheDark
03-06-2018, 10:28 AM
Why is it so hard to actually learn about the Kensei before coming to the forums to cry about him. Seriously, it's like some people never even met a Kensei before Season 5 so he's like completely alien to them.

The problem is people are so used to kensei being low tier that the ones they meet are either people who give them easy kills because their home game is go to top unblockable (and there is only so many times you can choose to not punish an obviously new kensei player >.>)or they meet people who are damn near godly with kensei because they have the basics of the game down to make up for their kit being less viable.

Now they no longer get guaranteed wins against new kenseis and the ones that were good despite thekit...actually have tools to use now.

The crazy thing is other than uninterruptible on lights, a less predictable wind up and the ability to get people who just double roll, there has been not much added to him, he has the tools to actually use the things he has always had going for him and people are getting their knickers in a twist because unless they have come up against a few high tier players they are seeing his kit being viable for the first time. He's higher B or lower A tier in my view which given he was trash tier, people are suddenly finding fault with things he has always had because it actually affects them now. Which isn't to say they are right on this by the by, I am with you on this.


Eh, uninterruptible-unblockable, tomato-potato.

Nope, two entirely different things,one forces a reaction other than blocking, the other forces a reaction other than shutting them down with a quicker light, and he has always had these things, people are only finding fault with them now because he isn't trash tier any more.

Phenoloth
03-06-2018, 11:18 AM
Problem is the short recovery time and low stamina costs for his free feints for Ądummiesď.

Iím playing him now and Iím not just assuming, itís true. Letís be fair there is a issue with his move set combined with very easy out playability of average players.

Adapting to his weirdness of feint spam is not funny.. join the club instead of whining I guess 😂😉👍

Knight_Raime
03-06-2018, 11:27 AM
Problem is the short recovery time and low stamina costs for his free feints for „dummies“.

I’m playing him now and I’m not just assuming, it’s true. Let’s be fair there is a issue with his move set combined with very easy out playability of average players.

Adapting to his weirdness of feint spam is not funny.. join the club instead of whining I guess ������

Kensei has 2 great tools in his kit. Pommel. and his dodge attack.

Pommel is proceeded by a heavy and always comes out at the same time at 600ms. If you're struggling to react to 600ms in this game that's on you.
further more any and every dodge attack/bash beats pommel. and a simple back dash also avoids the pommel.

His side dodge attacks are his second best way to get in on someone and also avoid most mix ups. however due to the length of the animation (I think it's in total 800ms or longer) it's super easy to see coming. Meaning it should be easier for people to parry. It being super long also opens him up easily to feint baits. either feint into parrying or feint into GB. Kensei still has one of the worst dodge recoveries at 700ms. Meaning basically any hero can dodge his dodge attack and get a free GB easy.

Continue to whine if you want. it won't make you better or your arguments any better.

Phenoloth
03-06-2018, 11:32 AM
Thatís additional tools he got with the remake. In combination with the feint overdose and range he is most annoying to fight in 4v4 and in duels! He has awesome anti gank ability as well.

Donít forget the soft feints he is able to do with ease. Iím not whining just giving my statement objectively. You seem not able to do the same because youíre afraid to get your op hero put on par back near rest of heroís.

Thatís whining!

Knight_Raime
03-06-2018, 11:39 AM
That’s additional tools he got with the remake.

Don’t forget the soft feints he is able to do with ease. I’m not whining just giving my statement objectively. You seem not able to do the same because you’re afraid to get your op hero put on par back near rest of hero’s.

That’s whining!

yes. Because I disagree I must want "OP" things. Stop strawmanning and learn to actually debate.
And as i've mentioned previously every other feint he does you can stand still and just block.

Phenoloth
03-06-2018, 11:43 AM
Itís obvious..

Knight_Raime
03-06-2018, 11:50 AM
It’s obvious you Main him now or not?

I don't have a main.
Sorry the objectively correct statements about his kit's shortcomings are too difficult for you to grasp.

Phenoloth
03-06-2018, 11:52 AM
Wow arguing is not your strength when getting opponent to your opinion i guess.

Knight_Raime
03-06-2018, 11:56 AM
Wow arguing is not your strength when getting opponent to your opinion i guess.

I already presented my argument. you ignored it and redirected to his other tools. While trying to strawman me.
Then I explained that all other tools he has are simply blocked by stone walling and waiting. and you strawmanned again.

Phenoloth
03-06-2018, 12:05 PM
You took his two new tools and explained them. Thatís not arguing.

Once more his complete kit in combination with the recent rework over balanced his performance in every game mode and I also explained why I think!

Knight_Raime
03-06-2018, 12:10 PM
You took his two new tools and explained them. That’s not arguing.

Once more his complete kit in combination with the recent rework over balanced his performance in every game mode and I also explained why I think!

I both explained why they are good and how they're easily dealt with. reread.
short recovery and low stamina costs was your argument. And kensei has average to bad recovery on basically everything he does sans his running forward heavy.
Also i'd actually advise you to pick up his kit and look at the stamina costs for his feints. Because I can feint 2 maybe 3 times before i'm in danger of running OOS.

You've really got nothing to prove he's over performing at the moment. Competitive players have put him in A tier now. which means he is good. But over performing heros typically exist in S tier.
Also even if he was S tier now we're still only 2 weeks into season 5. that's no where near enough time for a good chunk of the community to learn kensei's new moves and build reflexes against him. So any argument you or I make is potentially irrelevant anyway.

Phenoloth
03-06-2018, 12:17 PM
I both explained why they are good and how they're easily dealt with. reread.
short recovery and low stamina costs was your argument. And kensei has average to bad recovery on basically everything he does sans his running forward heavy.
Also i'd actually advise you to pick up his kit and look at the stamina costs for his feints. Because I can feint 2 maybe 3 times before i'm in danger of running OOS.

You've really got nothing to prove he's over performing at the moment. Competitive players have put him in A tier now. which means he is good. But over performing heros typically exist in S tier.
Also even if he was S tier now we're still only 2 weeks into season 5. that's no where near enough time for a good chunk of the community to learn kensei's new moves and build reflexes against him. So any argument you or I make is potentially irrelevant anyway.

Lol you desperately try to tell Kensei should stay like he is now. Reminds me to Shaman pre nerf discussions.

If youíd be a decent player youíd know and admit he is over performing and youíre wrong most competitive YouTuber put him in S Tier already.

Knight_Raime
03-06-2018, 12:21 PM
Lol you desperately try to tell Kensei should stay like he is now. Reminds me to Shaman pre nerf discussions.

If you’d be a decent player you’d know and admit he is over performing and you’re wrong most competitive YouTuber put him in S Tier already.

Lovely strawman. Going to put you on ignore. Have fun continuing to struggle at the game and blaming it instead of yourself. <3

HazelrahFirefly
03-06-2018, 12:32 PM
Despite that argument....

Can I ask for some advice? Especially with the top unblockable. If I don't try and parry it I'll eat the unblockable, and if I do then he can feint it to the sidr and I an glued into a different reaction.

This feels wholly unfair. No character should have anything like this, and I know that Kensei is not alone.

Charmzzz
03-06-2018, 12:36 PM
Despite that argument....

Can I ask for some advice? Especially with the top unblockable. If I don't try and parry it I'll eat the unblockable, and if I do then he can feint it to the sidr and I an glued into a different reaction.

This feels wholly unfair. No character should have anything like this, and I know that Kensei is not alone.

1. look at the icon - if it flashes he let it go and you can parry / dodge
2. if he feints it - no problem

Most problems come from overreacting. I know this behavior from myself, I struggled hard on Warden SB and every unblockable mixup (Raider, Shaman, etc). Being patient and knowing what the other guy can do fixed it for me.

Knight_Raime
03-06-2018, 12:43 PM
Despite that argument....

Can I ask for some advice? Especially with the top unblockable. If I don't try and parry it I'll eat the unblockable, and if I do then he can feint it to the sidr and I an glued into a different reaction.

This feels wholly unfair. No character should have anything like this, and I know that Kensei is not alone.

Well idk how knowledgable you are. So i'll just tell you everything.
Far as I know the feints from neutral heavy are all at the same time. 600ms into the attack. So this basically looks like when kensei has reach the peak of his swing. when it's basically directly above him. he can input a cancel at anytime before that but it will always come out at that point.

I don't currently know the ms on his unblockable. But I know that they also normalized it. So that you can't delay it coming out anymore.
I sort of use the same logic with his top unblockable that I do from his heavy feinting from neutral. once it's reached the top and starts coming down it's usually safe to assume that he's going to let it rip. and anything he can soft feint it into will be blockable. So you can just stonewall and wait to parry or just be ready to block.

Though alternatively if you can't seem to get the parry timing down on it i'd suggest changing up how you choose to counter it. Which would depend on your hero. But the 100% absolute best way to beat his unblockable top heavy mixup is to keep him from getting to it. He gets to it at the end of a chain. So from neutral it would be 3 top heavies. If he dodges forward for helm splitter and that lands he can do a top unblockable. A GB if he throws makes it unblockable as well. and finally wether his dodge attack is blocked or it lands he can go into top unblockable heavy.

Figuring out your opponents pattern and then mixing up how you deal with their pattern is how you'll win. For instance I play a dodge heavy kensei to go into my top unblockable. Only really using my neutral heavy feint into pommel if the person plays turtly (as all other soft feints from neutral will just be blocked.) So feint baiting me into a dodge where you parry me or GB me would be a good way to deter that style of play.

HazelrahFirefly
03-06-2018, 01:24 PM
Last night I tried with my Valk for 15 rounds, all that had time for. Valk is my second main but I think she's out of commission until a rework.

Tonight I will try for more rounds with my main, the PK, and see if I can figure anything out.

Thanks for the tips. I don't feel like I actually get it yet, but maybe the sentences will spring to mind as I'm fighting?....

Charmzzz
03-06-2018, 01:33 PM
Last night I tried with my Valk for 15 rounds, all that had time for. Valk is my second main but I think she's out of commission until a rework.

Tonight I will try for more rounds with my main, the PK, and see if I can figure anything out.

Thanks for the tips. I don't feel like I actually get it yet, but maybe the sentences will spring to mind as I'm fighting?....

I know that feeling. Retraining muscle memory is pretty hard. I had that same problem with Warden SB. I knew that, in most cases, a light attack will counter his SB attempt from neutral. Still I tried to dodge or anticipate the GB. But over time and failing again and again, I retrained my behavior and now Warden's are "meh". Same thing for LB shove on block into light / gb. After I learned that I should only dodge if I instantly see an icon after shove - otherwise he will gb - it was easy to anticipate what the LB will do and react correctly.

Vakris_One
03-06-2018, 02:25 PM
Despite that argument....

Can I ask for some advice? Especially with the top unblockable. If I don't try and parry it I'll eat the unblockable, and if I do then he can feint it to the sidr and I an glued into a different reaction.

This feels wholly unfair. No character should have anything like this, and I know that Kensei is not alone.
Kensei had this before his rework. They only added the ability to cancel into his side lights for some added threat. They normalised his feint timings so it is now actually much easier to get used to his soft cancel timings as apposed to before when he could slightly delay them or use them at the very start of his top unblockable.

You'll need to learn the timing of when he can no longer soft cancel the top unblockable as it's not always possible to stop him from getting to it. When his sword reaches the peak of his swing, i.e. when it has moved a little past his head and is now coming down towards you then it means he has committed to the unblockable and can no longer soft cancel it. Wait until that moment before you decide how to react. If he's committed to it you can choose to parry it or dodge it and get a free GB on him.

If he soft cancels into his side heavies you can block them or parry them as they are quite slow. If he soft cancels into his side lights you can block them and train your reflexes to be able to also parry them - high tier players have parried mine frequently much to my dismay. If he soft cancels into GB, you can counter GB.

If you can train yourself to not react too early this move will no longer present such a big threat to you.

HazelrahFirefly
03-06-2018, 03:31 PM
I think that might definitely be the problem, reacting too early. I see the top unblockable coming and want to parry it at all costs.

HazelrahFirefly
03-06-2018, 03:33 PM
Oh, and btw, I know my initial post was rather whiny. Its just so disheartening to feel like I should just quit the game. In 4v4s I have been running or letting Aramusha and Kensei kill me. I am hopeful that with servers I can combat Ara, because sometimes I crush them now.

mrmistark
03-06-2018, 05:43 PM
Honestly man, as a Kensei main almost the whole game, the rework almost feels like a nerf to me now.

I know this sounds crazy, but what they did was make his movements so clunky except for the soft fients by normalizing them. His smoothness is just not anything like it used to be.

In addition, the only thing he actually got was the options of UB finisher for all top heavies, but without the pressure of UB to really make it matter as much because thereís no need to parry it or anything following it up. Just look for the pommel strike, the rest is just blocking and each attack is pretty animated coming in. The only thing that they added honestly was being able to have soft fients for light armored attacks which I donít feel was necessary anyways as the light attack option has mainly a fient option for when they were going to parry and have been reading fient into Gb, and pommel strike which is good but ironically canít be used for the UB finisher. This move is pretty good for people who just sit there and wait, but easily dodgeable or counter Cc.

I mean, he DID get options, but the way they made him less smooth honestly makes every animation so easy to read. They basically kept skill ceiling the same level but dropped the skill floor significantly so any fool can play him but players who have been playing him understand that they didnít get as much as they thought at face value. It slightly makes the fient game easier. Slightly..... but again, his new clunkiness really negates this small buff by the clunkiness. I suspect once people get used to him and fully understand all of his options heíll be put into b/b+ tier. Just like aramusha.

I know this sounds crazy and is probably an unpopular idea, but thatís my honest opinion. I see him like aramusha: stupidly hard to stop once he came out, but now you hardly see aramusha doing half as well as he used to. Even on console heís like b tier now and has been shut down easily by the collective player base over and over again.

Vakris_One
03-06-2018, 06:41 PM
Oh, and btw, I know my initial post was rather whiny. Its just so disheartening to feel like I should just quit the game. In 4v4s I have been running or letting Aramusha and Kensei kill me. I am hopeful that with servers I can combat Ara, because sometimes I crush them now.
Understandable. We've all been there at some point versus a particular character or tactic that feels really frustrating to overcome. The important part is you want to learn how to counter it and that kind of fortitude is genuinley something rare in this community and something to be respected.

Keep at it man and I wish you the best.


Honestly man, as a Kensei main almost the whole game, the rework almost feels like a nerf to me now.

I know this sounds crazy, but what they did was make his movements so clunky except for the soft fients by normalizing them. His smoothness is just not anything like it used to be.

In addition, the only thing he actually got was the options of UB finisher for all top heavies, but without the pressure of UB to really make it matter as much because thereís no need to parry it or anything following it up. Just look for the pommel strike, the rest is just blocking and each attack is pretty animated coming in. The only thing that they added honestly was being able to have soft fients for light armored attacks which I donít feel was necessary anyways as the light attack option has mainly a fient option for when they were going to parry and have been reading fient into Gb, and pommel strike which is good but ironically canít be used for the UB finisher. This move is pretty good for people who just sit there and wait, but easily dodgeable or counter Cc.

I mean, he DID get options, but the way they made him less smooth honestly makes every animation so easy to read. They basically kept skill ceiling the same level but dropped the skill floor significantly so any fool can play him but players who have been playing him understand that they didnít get as much as they thought at face value. It slightly makes the fient game easier. Slightly..... but again, his new clunkiness really negates this small buff by the clunkiness. I suspect once people get used to him and fully understand all of his options heíll be put into b/b+ tier. Just like aramusha.

I know this sounds crazy and is probably an unpopular idea, but thatís my honest opinion. I see him like aramusha: stupidly hard to stop once he came out, but now you hardly see aramusha doing half as well as he used to. Even on console heís like b tier now and has been shut down easily by the collective player base over and over again.
I've been with Kensei since the beginning as well and I agree that he feels a lot clunkier than the old Kensei who for all his shortcomings felt much more fluid. It doesn't feel like a downgrade to me though but only because they gave him more options with which to be creative with, which is what he badly needed.

I have the sneaking suspicion Kensei might drop to high B tier once people get used to countering everything he can do simply because he doesn't have the potential to flow as well as before but only time will tell. He for sure has more staying power than the old Kensei and is not at risk to becoming obsolete anymore.

AkenoKobayashi
03-06-2018, 10:44 PM
People just aren't used to Kensei's new kit. Just like Aramusha. But once they have played as and against Kensei, they will learn how to counter him. It's not hard if you understand he basics of the core game mechanics. The top heavy combo is extremely slow, so if you aren't dodging it or parrying it, that is on you.

EvoX.
03-06-2018, 10:49 PM
Pommel is proceeded by a heavy and always comes out at the same time at 600ms.

Pommel hit is 600ms? That doesn't seem right. Centurion's and Nobushi's kick is 600ms and I can consistently dodge that, more or less, but the pommel looks near instant.

SEISMIS21
03-06-2018, 11:13 PM
Honestly man, as a Kensei main almost the whole game, the rework almost feels like a nerf to me now.

I know this sounds crazy, but what they did was make his movements so clunky except for the soft fients by normalizing them. His smoothness is just not anything like it used to be.

In addition, the only thing he actually got was the options of UB finisher for all top heavies, but without the pressure of UB to really make it matter as much because thereís no need to parry it or anything following it up. Just look for the pommel strike, the rest is just blocking and each attack is pretty animated coming in. The only thing that they added honestly was being able to have soft fients for light armored attacks which I donít feel was necessary anyways as the light attack option has mainly a fient option for when they were going to parry and have been reading fient into Gb, and pommel strike which is good but ironically canít be used for the UB finisher. This move is pretty good for people who just sit there and wait, but easily dodgeable or counter Cc.

I mean, he DID get options, but the way they made him less smooth honestly makes every animation so easy to read. They basically kept skill ceiling the same level but dropped the skill floor significantly so any fool can play him but players who have been playing him understand that they didnít get as much as they thought at face value. It slightly makes the fient game easier. Slightly..... but again, his new clunkiness really negates this small buff by the clunkiness. I suspect once people get used to him and fully understand all of his options heíll be put into b/b+ tier. Just like aramusha.

I know this sounds crazy and is probably an unpopular idea, but thatís my honest opinion. I see him like aramusha: stupidly hard to stop once he came out, but now you hardly see aramusha doing half as well as he used to. Even on console heís like b tier now and has been shut down easily by the collective player base over and over again.

I think the initial view that kensei is some great character now will go away rather quickly. I do think more people are picking him up and using him now than were before. I believe that's why there is noise regarding him being so good, people rarely played a Kensei before and now play him often. I also think the changes they made make him way way easier to use at a moderate level. Before the changes it took real effort to be a good Kensei, and that's what attracted me to him. Now, most new players can pick him up and be average within a few matches. Kensei is way less fluid now on dodges, making them a heavy attack forced his recovery to a heavy attack recovery. Dodging and switching characters was the best way to counter a gank, now this is still possible but less useful. Most of his attacks are slower than they were, weaker than they were (except top heavy opener and mid chain) or the timing/recovery was changed to make him easier to use (which also makes him easier to read),

I know people get upset anytime they lose, and chances are they ran into a decent Kensei that sat them down. However, that doesn't mean he is OP (which is funny to even consider at any level of play above average) and it certainly doesn't mean he is even A tier. I think that in a few weeks he will be widely considered back to B tier, because the changes they made make him more readable and less agile. He is only maybe A- tier now because people aren't used to him yet. I thought Kensei would get the love that he has badly needed since day 1, but I wouldn't say they made that big of a leap. He will not be considered true trash as a hero, which I guess is a way of saying they accomplished their goal. He is basically in the same place he has always been as for how good you can be with him, and I get the feeling that was the goal. Make it easier to be ok, but don't let him be much better than pre rework. They definitely accomplished that.

HazelrahFirefly
03-07-2018, 01:59 AM
Pommel hit is 600ms? That doesn't seem right. Centurion's and Nobushi's kick is 600ms and I can consistently dodge that, more or less, but the pommel looks near instant.

I agree, but I don't have the data or enough exp yet to judge.

Regardless, I'm reporting in. Tonight I went 3 and 27 against the Kensei bot. I really think I'm going to give up on the Valk for the time being, as much as I love her. It just doesn't seem to be happening.

Knight_Raime
03-07-2018, 08:12 AM
Pommel hit is 600ms? That doesn't seem right. Centurion's and Nobushi's kick is 600ms and I can consistently dodge that, more or less, but the pommel looks near instant.

My bad for not explaining properly.
The feint time into any move kensei does from his neutral top heavy is 600ms into his top heavy.
The speed of the pommel attack is it's own thing. The point of me mentioning the 600ms time is merely to let the guy I was helping understand that it doesn't matter when kensei chooses to input a feint. All of the attacks will come out during the same time of his heavy.

guor6800
03-07-2018, 10:13 AM
Despite that argument....

Can I ask for some advice? Especially with the top unblockable. If I don't try and parry it I'll eat the unblockable, and if I do then he can feint it to the sidr and I an glued into a different reaction.

This feels wholly unfair. No character should have anything like this, and I know that Kensei is not alone.

As soon as he goes into the unblockable any quick light will shut down his mix ups. Also his heavies (especially top) have very slow start up frames so most of the time you can get a gb on their start up.

HazelrahFirefly
03-07-2018, 04:18 PM
As soon as he goes into the unblockable any quick light will shut down his mix ups. Also his heavies (especially top) have very slow start up frames so most of the time you can get a gb on their start up.

I have only been able to interrupt him once so far. My reaction times are so bad, in combination to just not being used to him, that by the time I hit him he is already feinting it and cant be interrupted.

Vakris_One
03-07-2018, 05:25 PM
I have only been able to interrupt him once so far. My reaction times are so bad, in combination to just not being used to him, that by the time I hit him he is already feinting it and cant be interrupted.
Light and GB attempts are super risky unless you know for sure he's going for the top unblockable and time it perfectly so you catch him within the first miliseconds of the start of his animation. Unless the Kensei is being super predictable you cannot consistenly rely on using a light attack to hit him out of his unblockable. Because he'll just start switching into his uninterruptible side attacks which can grant him immediate hyper armour almost as quickly as any 400ms attack can hit him.

If you have a 400ms light most of the time you'll have enough recovery to score a hit and still have enough time to block his side heavy uninterruptible but not his side light uninterruptible. Against the old Kensei it was possible and even worth it if he's on low health as you'd kill him before his heavy reaches you and even if it doesn't kill him you'd block the heavy anyway. Against the new Kensei it's not as he now has uninterruptile side lights to counter this very tactic.

It's almost always safer to wait and see what he does while his unblockable winds up and react to that rather than focusing on the much shorter reaction time of nailing him within the first couple of miliseconds into his top unblockable animation startup.