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WastedPunk
03-04-2018, 03:45 PM
Watch this video first and then decide if I'm correct or not:

https://youtu.be/q3xaU4bS4oM


IN-CASE YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT'S GOING ON,all I did was either shield bash or bait a dodge so I can Guardbreak.
This is honestly what the game is becoming especially after S5.
Now,most people will argue that the HL was inexperienced.Which I agree with to some degree.But,it still doesn't change the fact that this is how the game is being played now.
Him being a Highlander was just the icing on the cake.Because of his slow dodge speed,It was pretty much the safest thing I could've done.
Even if he didn't Doge,I could've (and have already done) dodged forward to make it look like I'm going to shield bash but stop and GB and catch them mid dodge.

This isn't just the case with Conqueror.Pretty much any Unblockable can be exploited in a similar fashion and unless you are playing a Warrior with dodge attack,you are pretty much screwed.Even then, they can bait out the dodge attack and parry it but at the very least,it gives you a chance.

CandleInTheDark
03-04-2018, 03:56 PM
Yeah I would be kind of annoyed if it were me. At the same time though, I would say you earned the first two by chaining the first of them after dodging a top heavy, you earned those after when you managed to trigger superior block and dodging to the point he was close enough to wall stagger was a matter of being outplayed.

The issue in this seems to be that it is a true 50/50, he had to guess the one to dodge or counter guardbreak, For Honor isn't alone in having 50/50's,I watched a street fighter e tournament where basically you had three or four tries to get a 50/50 right or you were done, but I can also see where it is something where maybe the devs need to keep an eye on it.

Tirik22x
03-04-2018, 04:11 PM
Just wanted to point out that there’s a 0% chance that if that were me, that I would’ve been awarded that high block at 0:17.

WastedPunk
03-04-2018, 04:13 PM
They can balance it by keeping the RISK: REWARD ratio equal.Conqueror's shield bash is relatively quick when compared to Cent's kick or Lawbringer's shove.
But unlike them, Conqueror's recovery time is quicker than most warrior's dodge recovery.Essentially making it the safest ability against certain warriors.(Lawbringer,Highlander,Shugoki, Warlord etc.)

But I agree with you,generally games of this nature have some sort of a mind game ability but the main point still remains.

BarbeQMichael
03-04-2018, 05:06 PM
HL can currently just quit if he is matched against conq because there is absolutely nothing he can do against that. Practically everyone else except assassins and kensei are screwed when fighting against that terminator

Jarl.Felix
03-04-2018, 05:15 PM
Damn, after watching this video the devs incompetence seems is even more amazing.. what a ****ty moment.

The grab pounce must go in this game after ofc they remove the assasins dodge superiority.

EIGHTYYARDS NYC
03-04-2018, 05:27 PM
Does anyone think the other guy was just bad? Or you just mind molested him. I main Conq and it's not like he has vacuums for arms.

BarbeQMichael
03-04-2018, 05:33 PM
Does anyone think the other guy was just bad? Or you just mind molested him. I main Conq and it's not like he has vacuums for arms.

Bad or godlike, in that matchup it is irrelevant, outcome is the same.

WastedPunk
03-04-2018, 05:49 PM
Somewhat yes.But at the same time,that doesn't matter because of the way conq's kit is designed.It is extremely easy to exploit it (or cheese as the kids call it nowadays).
Like the guy above me mentioned,there are very limited options you have to counter a player that plays like that unless you are playing a hero with dodge attacks.

And also,this thread wasn't made to focus on him alone,it was meant to show the general nature of the game after S5.

Netcode_err_404
03-04-2018, 06:27 PM
Somewhat yes.But at the same time,that doesn't matter because of the way conq's kit is designed.It is extremely easy to exploit it (or cheese as the kids call it nowadays).
Like the guy above me mentioned,there are very limited options you have to counter a player that plays like that unless you are playing a hero with dodge attacks.

And also,this thread wasn't made to focus on him alone,it was meant to show the general nature of the game after S5.

Conq was aLWAYS designed ina very cheesy way.

Shield bash is safe, UB's, with guaranteed dmg, and all you have to do is cross-square.

iN THIS GAME, doing something, a combo, an attack is easy, all you have to do is pressing 2 buttons, countering these 2 buttons, some times, if not always, requires a strict timing and good amount of experience, meanwhile, the other guy needs to press 2 buttons.


Hope you guys inderstand what im trying to say.

The_B0G_
03-04-2018, 07:11 PM
I made a thread last week about fighting a conq with my highlander, half the people said it wasn't as bad as I was making it out to be. Guess I need to take videos lol

WastedPunk
03-04-2018, 07:49 PM
Can't agree more.Like light attacks where all a guy needs to do is press R1 while occasionally moving the right thumbstick.Whereas,you need to get on to the edge of your seat and focus to try and block those 400/500 Ms attacks.

RenegadeTX2000
03-04-2018, 08:52 PM
I made a thread last week about fighting a conq with my highlander, half the people said it wasn't as bad as I was making it out to be. Guess I need to take videos lol

It can be bad... Highlander must fight in Offensive Stance and even then he still loses the mu but it's very winnable.

BarbeQMichael
03-04-2018, 09:04 PM
It can be bad... Highlander must fight in Offensive Stance and even then he still loses the mu but it's very winnable.

HL going for offensive is a dead highlander, because he has no defences in it. You can just guardbreak or attack and kill him.

lMoosel
03-04-2018, 10:15 PM
That HL was just very bad. No backwards lights, no OF dodges or grab cancels. Hell he was dodge spamming before you even moved half the time.

Sauronbaine
03-04-2018, 10:35 PM
That Highlander was crappy.... He completely fell for the Conq everytime. Hes not waiting for the unblockable animation for SB.... so he just gets GB'd. He was trash.


He never used his caber toss or kick combo, never used OF lights. He was bad. lol

WastedPunk
03-04-2018, 11:34 PM
That Highlander was crappy.... He completely fell for the Conq everytime. Hes not waiting for the unblockable animation for SB.... so he just gets GB'd. He was trash.


He never used his caber toss or kick combo, never used OF lights. He was bad. lol

He isn't waiting for the animation because of how slow HL is.If he waits,he will get hit by it considering how quick SB is.
He never used Toss or kick because I didn't let him,I literally put him in a SB 50/50 spam where he either had to guess right or die (the latter happened in the video)

I'll probably upload another video tomorrow to further prove my point.

Kahuf1
03-04-2018, 11:35 PM
That Highlander was crappy.... He completely fell for the Conq everytime. Hes not waiting for the unblockable animation for SB.... so he just gets GB'd. He was trash.


He never used his caber toss or kick combo, never used OF lights. He was bad. lol

Look at this video one more time. This Highlander can enter to his offencive stance 1-2 times on start fight... he start with 1 spin following by heavy. Second tine he geint celtic curse into off stance and do 1 unblocable. Then he have Conqueror glued on his face. Highlander cant do light to get offensive, he cant dodge and w8 for heavy press down to get offensive stance.

Im rep 12 highlander, Im not best HL ever, but I can even be whole fight in offensive stance. But when Conq stick to ur face, u have no chance as Highlander without dodge attack against conqueror.

EDIT: Why UBI even try to rework Conqueror? Only give him more ability to simply spam some kind of shieldbash + some sort of damage and repeat. They try to make new wardenstyle 50:50 hero? I was hoping fore some fortrest hero with, but this is just crap. Rework warden will be like give him some kind of feint shoulderbash to do him 33:33:33??? Oh boy...

ArchDukeInstinct
03-04-2018, 11:58 PM
Watch this video first and then decide if I'm correct or not:

https://youtu.be/q3xaU4bS4oM


IN-CASE YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT'S GOING ON,all I did was either shield bash or bait a dodge so I can Guardbreak.
This is honestly what the game is becoming especially after S5.
Now,most people will argue that the HL was inexperienced.Which I agree with to some degree.But,it still doesn't change the fact that this is how the game is being played now.
Him being a Highlander was just the icing on the cake.Because of his slow dodge speed,It was pretty much the safest thing I could've done.
Even if he didn't Doge,I could've (and have already done) dodged forward to make it look like I'm going to shield bash but stop and GB and catch them mid dodge.

This isn't just the case with Conqueror.Pretty much any Unblockable can be exploited in a similar fashion and unless you are playing a Warrior with dodge attack,you are pretty much screwed.Even then, they can bait out the dodge attack and parry it but at the very least,it gives you a chance.

lol seriously?

This guy dodged twice before you even moved. You can't even call that a bait because you didn't even do anything.
He also got hit by shield bash mixup which is significantly slower than the regular dash into shield bash. It's 700ms compared to 500ms and you can't go into a guard break instead because shield bash mixup replaces the input. You'd have to wait or go into full block to go into a guard break.

Calling it safe is just ridiculous too, if they stand their ground and you dodge forward but don't shield bash, they have ample time to guard break you because Conqueror has the worst dodge recoveries in the game at 800ms in every direction.

The highlander's reactions in this video were just really bad. Highlander could have gotten a guard break at 0:14 actually. I'm pretty certain of it, he could have just sat still and parried that slower top light as well. But yeah clearly this highlander in the video is a God at For Honor and if he can't counter unblockables with his revolutionary tactic of dodging before anything even happens then nobody can.

Sauronbaine
03-05-2018, 12:12 AM
He isn't waiting for the animation because of how slow HL is.If he waits,he will get hit by it considering how quick SB is.
He never used Toss or kick because I didn't let him,I literally put him in a SB 50/50 spam where he either had to guess right or die (the latter happened in the video)

I'll probably upload another video tomorrow to further prove my point.

Your point is irrelvant. The highlander was bad. I can dodge the shield bash quite easily. He's bad. Thats all there is to it. I get that this is a conq is OP thread on the Downlow, but its not fooling anyone. Only bad players find Conq to be overpowered. You can dodge the SB and get a Guardbreak((On alot of characters. Not all.)).



Look at this video one more time. This Highlander can enter to his offencive stance 1-2 times on start fight... he start with 1 spin following by heavy. Second tine he geint celtic curse into off stance and do 1 unblocable. Then he have Conqueror glued on his face. Highlander cant do light to get offensive, he cant dodge and w8 for heavy press down to get offensive stance.

Im rep 12 highlander, Im not best HL ever, but I can even be whole fight in offensive stance. But when Conq stick to ur face, u have no chance as Highlander without dodge attack against conqueror.

EDIT: Why UBI even try to rework Conqueror? Only give him more ability to simply spam some kind of shieldbash + some sort of damage and repeat. They try to make new wardenstyle 50:50 hero? I was hoping fore some fortrest hero with, but this is just crap. Rework warden will be like give him some kind of feint shoulderbash to do him 33:33:33??? Oh boy...

See post above.

TLDR:

If you are failing against a conq's shield bash, its not a SB problem,

it is an ID 10 T error, as my manager says. Or as my girlfriend says, POBCAK

BarbeQMichael
03-05-2018, 01:12 AM
Hilarious how people get a video yet they deny what they see

ArchDukeInstinct
03-05-2018, 01:16 AM
Hilarious how people get a video yet they deny what they see

Hilarious how some peoples' confirmation biases are so bad they would actually think this video was evidence of anything.

WastedPunk
03-05-2018, 02:55 AM
Your point is irrelvant. The highlander was bad. I can dodge the shield bash quite easily. He's bad. Thats all there is to it. I get that this is a conq is OP thread on the Downlow, but its not fooling anyone. Only bad players find Conq to be overpowered.

You need to read my Original post again dude,this thread isn't about Conqueror.I just used his SB as an example.the whole point of the post is to show the unhealthy state of the spam/un-blockables in the game.
Remove conq out of the equation,Use let's say,Raider's zone.
He can either zone,feint into stunning tap or hard feint. Meaning there is almost no way to react but rather guess.Which in a sense,favors spam over actual abilities and skills.

Charmzzz
03-05-2018, 08:55 AM
You need to read my Original post again dude,this thread isn't about Conqueror.I just used his SB as an example.the whole point of the post is to show the unhealthy state of the spam/un-blockables in the game.
Remove conq out of the equation,Use let's say,Raider's zone.
He can either zone,feint into stunning tap or hard feint. Meaning there is almost no way to react but rather guess.Which in a sense,favors spam over actual abilities and skills.

If YOU cannot react to the animations and indicators, the conclusion is that nobody can?

When I am fully concentrated I can see and react to those mixups and punish. In the case of Conq going for his dodge-baiting or SB spamming I will just throw out a light immediately when he dodges. Any 500ms light will interrupt his mindgame if you are fast enough.

Dodge and Dodge-Attacks are good to counter unblockables that cannot be feinted OR if you wait for the icon to flash and then dodge. Everything else is an unsafe dodge. I learned that months ago.

Hormly
03-05-2018, 09:29 AM
Shield bash is cheap and needs to be made punishable end of story.

And it will

Charmzzz
03-05-2018, 09:42 AM
Shield bash is cheap and needs to be made punishable end of story.

And it will

It already is. Through out a 400 / 500ms attack on reaction - done.

BarbeQMichael
03-05-2018, 10:09 AM
It already is. Through out a 400 / 500ms attack on reaction - done.

Would work with some other characters, but HL does not have them, so he is pretty helpless in that situation.

CandleInTheDark
03-05-2018, 10:13 AM
Would work with some other characters, but HL does not have them, so he is pretty helpless in that situation.

Well, yes and no. He has one at 400ms but he has to already be in offensive stance to do it, if he is he is fine, if not, then yeah it is a problem.

BarbeQMichael
03-05-2018, 10:20 AM
Well, yes and no. He has one at 400ms but he has to already be in offensive stance to do it, if he is he is fine, if not, then yeah it is a problem.

Yeah the transition to OF takes so long it is unusable. If he on the other hand manages to enter it, the conq would just gb him because he can't cgb or even block while on offensive.

CandleInTheDark
03-05-2018, 10:22 AM
Yeah the transition to OF takes so long it is unusable. If he on the other hand manages to enter it, the conq would just gb him because he can't cgb or even block while on offensive.

Ah yeah so against a good conq you are screwed. I haven't used him (on the list but there are a lot on the list, hopefully dedicated servers speed up progress), got that raw from the values spreadsheet.

Charmzzz
03-05-2018, 10:29 AM
Hilarious how people get a video yet they deny what they see

I still deny that Conq SB or Raider UB mixup are 50/50's or OP in all cases. Yes, Conq SB mixup is maybe too strong against HL, but that is a HL and not a general problem.

BarbeQMichael
03-05-2018, 10:35 AM
I still deny that Conq SB or Raider UB mixup are 50/50's or OP in all cases. Yes, Conq SB mixup is maybe too strong against HL, but that is a HL and not a general problem.

Obviously not in all cases, but the video was about conq rekting HL, and to be honest I still dont know what the HL could do against a conqueror.

Knight_Raime
03-05-2018, 10:41 AM
Would work with some other characters, but HL does not have them, so he is pretty helpless in that situation.

Highlander has a 600ms recovery in defensive form and a 300 or 400ms recovery in offensive form.
conq's forward recovery is 600ms but 800ms in all other areas.

Highlander can dodge the forward bash on reaction but it's tight in defensive form. if highlander goes into offensive form out of range he can easily dodge any of conq's varied up times with forward bash and punish with anything he wants.

The match is still not in favor of highlander because of how easy ish it is to keep highlander out of offensive form. But highlander has options. it's no where near as bad as you make it to be.

Kensei and LB have a far worse time dealing with conq than highlander does.

Knight_Raime
03-05-2018, 10:44 AM
Yeah the transition to OF takes so long it is unusable. If he on the other hand manages to enter it, the conq would just gb him because he can't cgb or even block while on offensive.

if you raw into it yes. if you fast flow into it (which there are various ways to do so) no.
and if conq tried to answer the fast flow with a gb he'll just eat a 40 damage unblockable.

Conq would have a better chance getting HL out of offensive form with his top light or zone cancel.

BarbeQMichael
03-05-2018, 10:55 AM
if you raw into it yes. if you fast flow into it (which there are various ways to do so)

You can't fast flow from neutral, you have to attack or parry, and you cannot parry the shieldbash and your attacks are too slow. If you activate it from distance, well then yes you can get into it, but when you get close enough for the OF light to hit you are close enough the get guardbroken or eating attacks. This will of course work if the conqueror doesn't know that the HL is defenseless while in OF, I've even seen it few times when people don't know all they had to do was attack or gb and they could kill the HL trying to use offensive form.

Knight_Raime
03-05-2018, 10:58 AM
You can't fast flow from neutral, you have to attack or parry, and you cannot parry the shieldbash and your attacks are too slow. If you activate it from distance, well then yes you can get into it, but when you get close enough for the OF light to hit you are close enough the get guardbroken or eating attacks. This will of course work if the conqueror doesn't know that the HL is defenseless while in OF, I've even seen it few times when people don't know all they had to do was attack or gb and they could kill the HL trying to use offensive form.

Standard play for HL is to walk backwords while lighting to fast flow into OF.
If the conq tries to answer this with a GB he'll eat balors might.
If the conq tries to answer this with a bash he might knock HL out of OF. but will still eat balors might.
And if there is enough spacing in between conq and HL during this HL could easily dodge the bash and hit with balors might.

Anyway you look at it the bash is nearly useless against HL if he's in OF. and trying to go for a raw GB will just be met with an attack.
I was literally doing this all day.

BarbeQMichael
03-05-2018, 11:07 AM
Standard play for HL is to walk backwords while lighting to fast flow into OF.
If the conq tries to answer this with a GB he'll eat balors might.
If the conq tries to answer this with a bash he might knock HL out of OF. but will still eat balors might.
And if there is enough spacing in between conq and HL during this HL could easily dodge the bash and hit with balors might.

Anyway you look at it the bash is nearly useless against HL if he's in OF. and trying to go for a raw GB will just be met with an attack.
I was literally doing this all day.

He will eat the OF heavy only if he tries to gb when the heavy is already flying. Don't know who would do that though. The heavies dont have hyper armor so the bash or more likely a simple light will interrupt the attack and push him out of the stance.

If someone is fighting a highlander and lets him be in offensive form even when he is most vulnerable there (literally cannot block or cgb), he deserves to have hard time.

Knight_Raime
03-05-2018, 11:15 AM
He will eat the OF heavy only if he tries to gb when the heavy is already flying. Don't know who would do that though. The heavies dont have hyper armor so the bash or more likely a simple light will interrupt the attack and push him out of the stance.

If someone is fighting a highlander and lets him be in offensive form even when he is most vulnerable there (literally cannot block or cgb), he deserves to have hard time.

No. If he goes to GB and the HL knows this letting the heavy fly will make it bounce off. it's fast enough that you can do that on reaction. it's literally the same thin if you know someone is going for a GB and you let a normal light or a heavy fly when they attempt. You can make it sound like only bad people would do that but that's a strawman. If it's normal for people to attempt to GB a highlander in OF then it stands to reason people who play HL consistently will be aware of this and be able to let one rip when a GB is attempted.

As I said I spent a lot of today letting my balors might go when I noticed the conq attempting to bash me. There were times when I beat it out right and was still in OF and there were times where the bash hit me but he was still hit by balors might. The only way a bash is going to be able to correctly answer an OF heavy being let go is if he's close enough that we're practically hugging. If you properly space conq out wether he attempts to bash or just dodge forward in attempts to bait me I can let the heavy rip and it will beat both things.

Last sentence is a strawman. Fact is conq v HL is not a bad matchup for HL. merely an unfavorable one. This is entierly because HL now has acceptable dash recovery in defensive form and god tier recovery in OF. A conq that primarily relies on forward bash mix up will not topple a HL who's decent.

Charmzzz
03-05-2018, 11:23 AM
Just stop it Knight_Raime. He won't accept you being right and him being just too slow or failing to understand some mechanics in the game. Just have a look at his FHTracker Profile. Mediocre Players will always say that something is a true 50/50 or OP or unbeatable or unreactable or impossible instead of trying to find out what could be an answer.

No offense BarbeQMichael. It's just sad that you won't accept a pretty good guide of "how to play HL against conq"...

BarbeQMichael
03-05-2018, 11:27 AM
No. If he goes to GB and the HL knows this letting the heavy fly will make it bounce off. it's fast enough that you can do that on reaction. it's literally the same thin if you know someone is going for a GB and you let a normal light or a heavy fly when they attempt. You can make it sound like only bad people would do that but that's a strawman. If it's normal for people to attempt to GB a highlander in OF then it stands to reason people who play HL consistently will be aware of this and be able to let one rip when a GB is attempted.

As I said I spent a lot of today letting my balors might go when I noticed the conq attempting to bash me. There were times when I beat it out right and was still in OF and there were times where the bash hit me but he was still hit by balors might. The only way a bash is going to be able to correctly answer an OF heavy being let go is if he's close enough that we're practically hugging. If you properly space conq out wether he attempts to bash or just dodge forward in attempts to bait me I can let the heavy rip and it will beat both things.

Last sentence is a strawman. Fact is conq v HL is not a bad matchup for HL. merely an unfavorable one. This is entierly because HL now has acceptable dash recovery in defensive form and god tier recovery in OF. A conq that primarily relies on forward bash mix up will not topple a HL who's decent.

So what you are saying is that you beat a bad player easily, and I don't doubt it as HL of heavies hit hard if they land. But what you described is just bad play from your opponent, and it cannot be generalized to be a norm.

From my perspective, whenever I fight against highlanders and I see them trying to go for offensive, it takes just a light attack or guardbreak from me to push them out of it because they can't defend, unless it was a light parry from where OF heavy is guaranteed for him. I admit, I have died to a highlander 3 or 4 times, but they were so much better than me they would have killed me with any hero.



It's just sad that you won't accept a pretty good guide of "how to play HL against conq"...

That is because what was described doesn't work at higher level play.


Just have a look at his FHTracker Profile. Mediocre Players

Not sure how reliable FHT is, but it seems to rate me the top 0,5%. Ingame I am platinum 4. Could surely be much better but I think that is even slightly above mediocre?

Charmzzz
03-05-2018, 11:37 AM
That is because what was described doesn't work at higher level play.

You are not playing in "higher level" concerning your FHTracker stats. Feel free to compare our most played Hero: https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/Charmzzz

I don't want to sound rude, but I know that Knight_Raime has deep understanding of the game mechanics and considers recovery times, attack timings, tactics and every possible thing in a matchup.

Knight_Raime
03-05-2018, 11:40 AM
So what you are saying is that you beat a bad player easily, and I don't doubt it as HL of heavies hit hard if they land. But what you described is just bad play from your opponent, and it cannot be generalized to be a norm.

From my perspective, whenever I fight against highlanders and I see them trying to go for offensive, it takes just a light attack or guardbreak from me to push them out of it because they can't defend, unless it was a light parry from where OF heavy is guaranteed for him. I admit, I have died to a highlander 3 or 4 times, but they were so much better than me they would have killed me with any hero.

Writing off players as being bad is literally you strawmaning because you don't have anything to counter my point about recovery numbers or about spacing.
And from your perspective I could also equally argue that you fight bad HL players.

Let me rephrase.
HL's OF heavy is either 600ms or 700ms. Conq's dodge is 600ms. if he's not right on top of me anything he attempts to do by dodging forward will be met with his OF heavy on reaction. There is literally no way for conq to stop the OF from ripping unless he's on top of me.

And again. even if i'm not going straight into OF heavy from my fast flow to answer him highlanders dodge recovery is either 300ms or 400ms in OF. Meaning if he attempts to bash be it as soon as he can or if he tries to delay it I can dodge it on reaction and hit him with an OF heavy or an OF light and conq can't do anything about it.

Of course my entire argument relies on me being in OF. if conq can sucessfully manage to keep HL out of it yes. it's harder for HL to do anything.
But that doesn't make it a bad matchup for HL. merely an unfavorable one. lots of conq's kit still revolves around blocking attacks in some fashion. and OF negates most of that. Which is another reason why the matchup isn't bad for HL.

BarbeQMichael
03-05-2018, 11:40 AM
You are not playing in "higher level" concerning your FHTracker stats. Feel free to compare our most played Hero: https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/Charmzzz

I don't want to sound rude, but I know that Knight_Raime has deep understanding of the game mechanics and considers recovery times, attack timings, tactics and every possible thing in a matchup.
Edited to earlier post but it was on the other page:

Not sure how reliable FHT is, but it seems to rate me the top 0,5%. Ingame I am platinum 4. Could surely be much better but I think that is even slightly above mediocre?

Knight_Raime
03-05-2018, 11:43 AM
You are not playing in "higher level" concerning your FHTracker stats. Feel free to compare our most played Hero: https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/Charmzzz

I don't want to sound rude, but I know that Knight_Raime has deep understanding of the game mechanics and considers recovery times, attack timings, tactics and every possible thing in a matchup.

I'm not 100% confident when it comes to numbers yet. it's still something i'm learning. But I do know these numbers for this matchup in some capacity due to recent looking up.

Charmzzz
03-05-2018, 11:46 AM
Edited to earlier post but it was on the other page:

Not sure how reliable FHT is, but it seems to rate me the top 0,5%. Ingame I am platinum 4. Could surely be much better but I think that is even slightly above mediocre?

Don't look at FHTR Score, that is BS. Look at Winrate, K/D and K/D/A. Maybe even KPM. Above mediocre, ok, but not high level. When you are facing Clutchmeister, Setmyx, Playfiends and those guys, then come again and talk about unbalanced stuff. I tell you, Clutch will eat you alive with his Valk... :D

BarbeQMichael
03-05-2018, 11:47 AM
Let me rephrase.
HL's OF heavy is either 600ms or 700ms. Conq's dodge is 600ms. if he's not right on top of me anything he attempts to do by dodging forward will be met with his OF heavy on reaction. There is literally no way for conq to stop the OF from ripping unless he's on top of me.



Have they made the heavies faster? I recall them being 800ms, that is what the spreadsheet says also. If they truly are that fast nowdays that would work.



Of course my entire argument relies on me being in OF. if conq can sucessfully manage to keep HL out of it yes. it's harder for HL to do anything.
But that doesn't make it a bad matchup for HL. merely an unfavorable one. lots of conq's kit still revolves around blocking attacks in some fashion. and OF negates most of that. Which is another reason why the matchup isn't bad for HL.

Thats kind of the point, how easily you can keep highlander out of offensive form if you so choose. It takes only light attack from the conq to push the HL out of the OF. If the conqueror lets the HL stay in OF and use attacks from there, the conqueror is just a very bad player.

BarbeQMichael
03-05-2018, 11:51 AM
Don't look at FHTR Score, that is BS. Look at Winrate, K/D and K/D/A. Maybe even KPM. Above mediocre, ok, but not high level. When you are facing Clutchmeister, Setmyx, Playfiends and those guys, then come again and talk about unbalanced stuff. I tell you, Clutch will eat you alive with his Valk... :D

I understood those values are combined from every game mode, which means they are not comparable (or bs as you say). FTR score on the other hand separates the number and calculates a skill rating for your individual performance.

Also we can just skip the ftr, ingame rating for me is platinum 4 so I play mostly against high plats and low diamonds, and I call it relatively high. Not the top of course but high. And I am sure the guys you mentioned will wreck me, don't know them but I take your word for them being supergood.

Knight_Raime
03-05-2018, 11:56 AM
Have they made the heavies faster? I recall them being 800ms, that is what the spreadsheet says also. If they truly are that fast nowdays that would work.



Thats kind of the point, how easily you can keep highlander out of offensive form if you so choose. It takes only light attack from the conq to push the HL out of the OF. If the conqueror lets the HL stay in OF and use attacks from there, the conqueror is just a very bad player.

I don't know their exact numbers. i'm going off of how fast they feel based on other heros i've played. It's entirely possible they're coded at 800ms. But with no lag comp in and hasn't been for a long time they would be faster. even barring that they used to be parryable by assassins after a kick or a toss. I don't remember how they fixed that. they could have made them faster to do so.

It's debatable on how easy it is. granted i'm no god tier HL but i've watched good players like tara (who is also on xbox) and cho cho who wreck just about anyone with HL and they are in OF often and for extended periods of time dodging peoples attacks with OF dodges like it's nothing.

At this point I'm not going to discuss further. you keep going back to "bad player" which is neither an argument nor a fun thing to constantly be walled with in a discussion. conq doesn't have good range. Nor is he particularly fast. it's really not hard for HL to space away from conq and enter/stay in OF.

Charmzzz
03-05-2018, 11:56 AM
No. 1 Warden worldwide: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=playfiends

Top rated player Setmyx (his PK is superstrong): https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=setmyx+for+honor

Clutchmeister, top rated FH player: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=clutchmeister

Have a look at those. Plat 4 is very good in tournaments, no question!

BarbeQMichael
03-05-2018, 12:07 PM
I don't know their exact numbers. i'm going off of how fast they feel based on other heros i've played. It's entirely possible they're coded at 800ms. But with no lag comp in and hasn't been for a long time they would be faster. even barring that they used to be parryable by assassins after a kick or a toss. I don't remember how they fixed that. they could have made them faster to do so.

It's debatable on how easy it is. granted i'm no god tier HL but i've watched good players like tara (who is also on xbox) and cho cho who wreck just about anyone with HL and they are in OF often and for extended periods of time dodging peoples attacks with OF dodges like it's nothing.

At this point I'm not going to discuss further. you keep going back to "bad player" which is neither an argument nor a fun thing to constantly be walled with in a discussion. conq doesn't have good range. Nor is he particularly fast. it's really not hard for HL to space away from conq and enter/stay in OF.


I call it bad play because it is just that, and losing from there is his fault, not the highlanders work. If he lets highlander stay in offensive even when it takes only a light or gb to put him out, is like using unblockables against a guy who does not know how parries work. Both fights end up fast but it is just situational fight, because other players will know how to parry and other players will poke HL out of OF.



No. 1 Warden worldwide: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=playfiends

Top rated player Setmyx (his PK is superstrong): https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=setmyx+for+honor

Clutchmeister, top rated FH player: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=clutchmeister

Have a look at those. Plat 4 is very good in tournaments, no question!

Will check out, not sure though what was the point of posting these :D I surely know that there are far better players than me, like those guys.

CandleInTheDark
03-05-2018, 04:46 PM
Just as a point of reference, we have been asked more than once not to use third party tracker sites as a means of dismissing the argument of a person as opposed to debating their argument on its merits.

EIGHTYYARDS NYC
03-05-2018, 05:02 PM
Im happy to see people see the HL was just worse then meh.

Netcode_err_404
03-05-2018, 06:40 PM
Competitive fighting game : A move's counter is as hard as the moves your opponent is launching

For honor: 2 buttons safe UB's with free damage, that is countered only with perfect timing and experience.



LEL

Baggin_
03-05-2018, 07:09 PM
I think the best way to get rid of that way of fighting is to increase the time it takes to perform a gb after a dash for certain characters (keep cgb the same) by 100ms or 2, this would prevent the dash bait that conq and warlord have.

BarbeQMichael
03-05-2018, 07:18 PM
Competitive fighting game : A move's counter is as hard as the moves your opponent is launching

For honor: 2 buttons safe UB's with free damage, that is countered only with perfect timing and experience.



LEL

Avoided, not countered. Like in the example HL can avoid the shieldbash by perfect dodge, but he cannot counter it. Counter would mean he could punish it after dodge, now he cannot.

WastedPunk
03-05-2018, 08:27 PM
If YOU cannot react to the animations and indicators, the conclusion is that nobody can?

When I am fully concentrated I can see and react to those mixups and punish. In the case of Conq going for his dodge-baiting or SB spamming I will just throw out a light immediately when he dodges. Any 500ms light will interrupt his mindgame if you are fast enough.

Dodge and Dodge-Attacks are good to counter unblockables that cannot be feinted OR if you wait for the icon to flash and then dodge. Everything else is an unsafe dodge. I learned that months ago.
I understand that this is the best game ever made and you can't accept anyone that says otherwise.
When the game loses every player because they are tired of cheap tactics,then I bet you will still defend it like you always do.
You can CLEARLY see Highlander try to light attack at least twice which didn't work because of how slow he is.Let me guess,you think Warden's SB mixup is "REACTABLE and you just suck if you can't" right? Is that why even the top players of the community have called it a 50/50?

Devils-_-legacy
03-05-2018, 08:31 PM
One hero is not ment to be able to counter every hero. the conq is a bad match for highlander. I think using the fh traders now against the fourms rules lol not sure why tho

CandleInTheDark
03-05-2018, 08:37 PM
One hero is not ment to be able to counter every hero. the conq is a bad match for highlander. I think using the fh traders now against the fourms rules lol not sure why tho

The reps spoke up on it because of pretty much the example in this thread, rather than debate an argument, people were saying your view is worthless because of your stats.

Devils-_-legacy
03-05-2018, 08:41 PM
Oh I won't lie I've used it when someone says the I'm a high level player argument to me but normaly it's to defend my point so I can show my opinion is as much valid as there's Imo i honestly thought they did it to stop the flame war between 2 users

Netcode_err_404
03-06-2018, 02:37 AM
Avoided, not countered. Like in the example HL can avoid the shieldbash by perfect dodge, but he cannot counter it. Counter would mean he could punish it after dodge, now he cannot.

Countered, avoided, the point still persist.

2 buttons "combo" that is a:

-Push
-UB
-safe
- Leads to free damage
- Spammable, with low stamina cost.



It goes against every rule of a fightinh game, ever. But i know FH is just a random game, not thought at all to be competitive, or taken seriously.

Charmzzz
03-06-2018, 08:55 AM
I understand that this is the best game ever made and you can't accept anyone that says otherwise.
When the game loses every player because they are tired of cheap tactics,then I bet you will still defend it like you always do.
You can CLEARLY see Highlander try to light attack at least twice which didn't work because of how slow he is.Let me guess,you think Warden's SB mixup is "REACTABLE and you just suck if you can't" right? Is that why even the top players of the community have called it a 50/50?

Now you start bullsh*tting because my argument is better than you saying "impossibruuu!"? Warden's SB after hitting a Light is reactable if you are not face-to-face with him. Warden's SB from neutral is super easily reactable and punishable. Again, if you cannot do it that is your thing. I cannot do it all the time, too. But I know that it is possible and I can do it if I concentrate.

Do you play other Fighter games? I did ages ago, and I can remember that EVERY SINGLE ONE had your so-called "cheap tactics". And every "cheap tactic" was counterable in some way.

Specialkha
03-06-2018, 10:26 AM
As a HL, you can't react fast enough to Warden'SB if you are not already in OF. In defensive, your light are too slow to interrupt and you can't dodge because, due to your slow recovery, you will get GBed, so basically, as a HL, it is 50/50 if the warden is close to you.

Charmzzz
03-06-2018, 10:46 AM
As a HL, you can't react fast enough to Warden'SB if you are not already in OF. In defensive, your light are too slow to interrupt and you can't dodge because, due to your slow recovery, you will get GBed, so basically, as a HL, it is 50/50 if the warden is close to you.

You let Warden come in close, that is your first mistake. Then, if Warden dodges from neutral to initiate his SB: 700ms - your light in def is 600ms. If he dodges from neutral you can just throw out a side light. It will interrupt his SB attempt 100%. And dont "counter" that with "he could parry" because that is true for every attack...

ChampionRuby50g
03-06-2018, 11:05 AM
Don't look at FHTR Score, that is BS. Look at Winrate, K/D and K/D/A. Maybe even KPM. Above mediocre, ok, but not high level. When you are facing Clutchmeister, Setmyx, Playfiends and those guys, then come again and talk about unbalanced stuff. I tell you, Clutch will eat you alive with his Valk... :D

Just saying, if I had a dollar for everytime you shared your FHT profile and said who you played against, i'd be a millionaire

Knight_Raime
03-06-2018, 11:06 AM
I understand that this is the best game ever made and you can't accept anyone that says otherwise.
When the game loses every player because they are tired of cheap tactics,then I bet you will still defend it like you always do.
You can CLEARLY see Highlander try to light attack at least twice which didn't work because of how slow he is.Let me guess,you think Warden's SB mixup is "REACTABLE and you just suck if you can't" right? Is that why even the top players of the community have called it a 50/50?

"I understand that this is the best game ever made and you can't accept anyone that says otherwise"
Strawman. And charmzz has their own issues with the game.

"when the game loses every player because they are tired of cheap tactics then I bet you will still defend it like you always do."
Strawman. And unless you've been around as long as charmzz has you can't factually state that they defend everything done with the game.
Lack of evidence does not equal evidence empirically.

"guess you think warden's sb mix up is reactable and you just suck if you can't right? is that why even the top players have called it a 50/50?"
Strawman. Wardens mix up is reactable if he doesn't have hitstun on you from a confirmed hit. and at that point you can still just roll away. As you can any other mix up in the game.
the term 50/50 is abused in this game and hasn't been used by top players in a long time because of how split the community is on the term.

50/50 in other fighting games means your opponent does something. which they can do 1 of 2 things from. there are no tells that hint at what your opponent will do. forcing you to guess. and if you guess wrong you eat damage. Since rolling away negates any choice a player would have to make in for honor there are no traditional 50/50's. Also. Top players have said a lot of things. Those don't stay true forever because opinions change. If you were really that tapped into what the top tier players were saying you'd know that warden has been considered trash for a long time now and that SB is basically useless outside of a crushing counter since that confirms one.

Knight_Raime
03-06-2018, 11:11 AM
As a HL, you can't react fast enough to Warden'SB if you are not already in OF. In defensive, your light are too slow to interrupt and you can't dodge because, due to your slow recovery, you will get GBed, so basically, as a HL, it is 50/50 if the warden is close to you.

Wardens raw SB is 700ms.
HL's current dodge recovery in defensive form is 600ms. and 400ms in OF.
HL can absolutely dodge a raw SB from neutral now.

However if warden has hitstunned him through a confirmed hit then he can't. but this rings true for pretty much everyone unless you've got a decently fast dodge attack or light attack. then you can interupt. there are no 50/50's in FH because rolling away escapes any mix up on all heros. You can say in some situations some heros have to "guess" because they can't react fast enough if they want to do something specific or something besides rolling. But that's really it.

BarbeQMichael
03-06-2018, 11:17 AM
Wardens raw SB is 700ms.
HL's current dodge recovery in defensive form is 600ms. and 400ms in OF.
HL can absolutely dodge a raw SB from neutral now.

However if warden has hitstunned him through a confirmed hit then he can't. but this rings true for pretty much everyone unless you've got a decently fast dodge attack or light attack. then you can interupt. there are no 50/50's in FH because rolling away escapes any mix up on all heros. You can say in some situations some heros have to "guess" because they can't react fast enough if they want to do something specific or something besides rolling. But that's really it.

Othewise correct points, but rolling away isn't considered a counter or solution for any moves. It would be if the goal was to just stay alive for determined amount of time, but not when the goal is to fight back and defeat your enemy.

Specialkha
03-06-2018, 11:18 AM
You do realize that rolling away just postpone the issue? Roll away, the warden just dodge forward to catch up to you, and we are back to square one, but with you having less stamina than the warden.

Btw, 700 ms for bash and 600 ms for dodge means 100 ms to react, good luck with that in melee range.

Knight_Raime
03-06-2018, 11:36 AM
Othewise correct points, but rolling away isn't considered a counter or solution for any moves. It would be if the goal was to just stay alive for determined amount of time, but not when the goal is to fight back and defeat your enemy.

it resets the situation to neutral. and wardens SB is easier to react from neutral. He'd have to get in on you again. So essentially rolling away gives you a free do over.


You do realize that rolling away just postpone the issue? Roll away, the warden just dodge forward to catch up to you, and we are back to square one, but with you having less stamina than the warden.

Btw, 700 ms for bash and 600 ms for dodge means 100 ms to react, good luck with that in melee range.

No it doesn't because the fight is back at neutral again. If you're rolling away at the neutral SB then yes. I'm referring to rolling away once you've been hitstunned. As reacting to a neutral SB is easier to do than an SB mid combo from hit stun. Point is. You can escape the mix up on any hero and get a second chance at the fight instead of letting the warden continue to SB combo you. So it's still very worthwhile to do so. Stamina management barely maters in this game to begin with.

Doesn't matter the range mate. as long as i'm not hitstunned by warden the bash isn't going to touch me.

Charmzzz
03-06-2018, 11:42 AM
You do realize that rolling away just postpone the issue? Roll away, the warden just dodge forward to catch up to you, and we are back to square one, but with you having less stamina than the warden.

Btw, 700 ms for bash and 600 ms for dodge means 100 ms to react, good luck with that in melee range.

You clearly have no idea about the game mechanics. 700ms for Warden to release his SB. HL dodge RECOVERY (the time between dodging and being able to do something new) is 600ms. So you can dodge it AND GB instantly because 100ms is enough to spam your GB button after dodging. ;)

BarbeQMichael
03-06-2018, 11:48 AM
Thats essentially just running away, while it makes you live longer, it does not deal any damage to the opponent either. I'll explain different way:
Assume heroes A and B. Hero A attacking and hero B countering. If B fails his counter, A deals damage to B, but if hero B pulls off his counter move, he deals damage to A. Essentially a zero-sum game as it should be, where better wins if the rewards are somewhat equal in the actual attack and counter move (both dealing close to same damage)

Now if B does not have any viable counter, only running/rolling away: If B fails his roll, A deals damage to B, but if B pulls off his roll, nothing interesting happens. It means that in the long run there is one winner, and it is A, statistically.

Charmzzz
03-06-2018, 11:51 AM
Just saying, if I had a dollar for everytime you shared your FHT profile and said who you played against, i'd be a millionaire

That's because people come in here and say "in higher level play", and when I look them up they are obviously not playing there. I am, seriously, not a progamer. My reactions are far worse than they were 20 years ago when I started gaming. Still I manage to play in the Top 5-10% in this game because I learn the mechanics and how to react to certain kind of moves.

If those "high level players" would play against Clutch on his Valk, I bet they come to the forum and call for a Valk nerf...

Knight_Raime
03-06-2018, 11:53 AM
Thats essentially just running away, while it makes you live longer, it does not deal any damage to the opponent either. I'll explain different way:
Assume heroes A and B. Hero A attacking and hero B countering. If B fails his counter, A deals damage to B, but if hero B pulls off his counter move, he deals damage to A. Essentially a zero-sum game as it should be, where better wins if the rewards are somewhat equal in the actual attack and counter move (both dealing close to same damage)

Now if B does not have any viable counter, only running/rolling away: If B fails his roll, A deals damage to B, but if B pulls off his roll, nothing interesting happens. It means that in the long run there is one winner, and it is A, statistically.

You literally can't fail a roll. You can just spam it.
and I guess you're not understanding the importance of resetting something to neutral.

Yes. If A lands damage on me and then I roll away to avoid mix up and he manages to damage me again my roll was wasted. But until either him or me take damage after a roll the roll is neutral on both sides. no one gains anything. and both are on equal footing again.

Me losing my stamina on a roll means jack all in for honor's current game.

Charmzzz
03-06-2018, 11:54 AM
Thats essentially just running away, while it makes you live longer, it does not deal any damage to the opponent either. I'll explain different way:
Assume heroes A and B. Hero A attacking and hero B countering. If B fails his counter, A deals damage to B, but if hero B pulls off his counter move, he deals damage to A. Essentially a zero-sum game as it should be, where better wins if the rewards are somewhat equal in the actual attack and counter move (both dealing close to same damage)

Now if B does not have any viable counter, only running/rolling away: If B fails his roll, A deals damage to B, but if B pulls off his roll, nothing interesting happens. It means that in the long run there is one winner, and it is A, statistically.

Nope because you can dodge the neutral SB on reaction and punish the Warden. If you got hitstun and he initiates a followup SB you can roll away to stop his chain. So, if you think this through, Warden will lose statistically vs any opponent who knows these 2 facts. Because SB is his only "good" move. And to get it going he first has to hit a light (99% top), if you block top he can only go for a SB from neutral which is punished 90% of the time in my MMR.

BarbeQMichael
03-06-2018, 12:02 PM
You literally can't fail a roll. You can just spam it.
and I guess you're not understanding the importance of resetting something to neutral.

Yes. If A lands damage on me and then I roll away to avoid mix up and he manages to damage me again my roll was wasted. But until either him or me take damage after a roll the roll is neutral on both sides. no one gains anything. and both are on equal footing again.

Me losing my stamina on a roll means jack all in for honor's current game.

Yes, failing roll is hard. And I bet everyone understand why living longer is important as it gives you more chances. But I am talking about the expected value of moves and counter moves, purely statistical without specific heroes. When you do an attack which the enemy can respond with proper counter, the expected value is zero for both. But if there is no counter, the expected value is negative for B always. It does not mean he gets obliterated always, but he is in worse position. You can win money in lottery, but the expected value is negative.



Nope because you can dodge the neutral SB on reaction and punish the Warden. If you got hitstun and he initiates a followup SB you can roll away to stop his chain. So, if you think this through, Warden will lose statistically vs any opponent who knows these 2 facts. Because SB is his only "good" move. And to get it going he first has to hit a light (99% top), if you block top he can only go for a SB from neutral which is punished 90% of the time in my MMR.

I was talking generally about moves and counters from analytical perspective, not specific moves. Yes, I am fairly sure we play at about the same mmr and wardens sb from neutral gets quite often punished.

Knight_Raime
03-06-2018, 12:06 PM
I don't see the point in assigning values to it at all.
Unless a hero has a really good option from neutral I don't agree that the person rolling away is losing anything at all.
I understand what you're getting at. I just don't see the point in mentioning it when we both seem to understand that rolling away from a mix up is still a good thing because reseting a fight to neutral position is a good thing.

BarbeQMichael
03-06-2018, 12:10 PM
I don't see the point in assigning values to it at all.
Unless a hero has a really good option from neutral I don't agree that the person rolling away is losing anything at all.
I understand what you're getting at. I just don't see the point in mentioning it when we both seem to understand that rolling away from a mix up is still a good thing because reseting a fight to neutral position is a good thing.

Because the way I handle this game, it is all about moves with certain risks and rewards. To beat the enemy I must get better rewards than he does. And in all its simplicity, rolling away means the enemy has a chance to deal damage, but you do not. Having to resort to roll instead of proper counter means you will be underdog always. Of course it is still possible to win by playing better. But the enemy has better starting position if he has a move which can only reward him while risking nothing.


E: And yes, if the hero lacks proper counter, it is of course better to roll away than just stand there eating hits.

WastedPunk
03-06-2018, 12:11 PM
Nope because you can dodge the neutral SB on reaction and punish the Warden. If you got hitstun and he initiates a followup SB you can roll away to stop his chain. So, if you think this through, Warden will lose statistically vs any opponent who knows these 2 facts. Because SB is his only "good" move. And to get it going he first has to hit a light (99% top), if you block top he can only go for a SB from neutral which is punished 90% of the time in my MMR.

You can easily dodge neutral SB on reactions but you CANT react to the mixup that he has.Whether he GBs or let's it fly,you can't tell.Rolling away is everything but 'countering' all you do is lose even more stamina just for Warden to put your right back into it.

But ofcourse,none of that matters because you "can react to it".
What's next? PK's zone is "TOTALLY REACTABLE IF I FOCUS".
It's really no use arguing with you when it's the same argument over and over again.

Knight_Raime
03-06-2018, 12:15 PM
Because the way I handle this game, it is all about moves with certain risks and rewards. To beat the enemy I must get better rewards than he does. And in all its simplicity, rolling away means the enemy has a chance to deal damage, but you do not. Having to resort to roll instead of proper counter means you will be underdog always. Of course it is still possible to win by playing better. But the enemy has better starting position if he has a move which can only reward him while risking nothing.

Well yes. it's objectively better to use a move that counters your opponent and puts you at an adventageous position. But I don't think rolling away should be undervalued just because it's not directly giving something. But that's just me.



You can easily dodge neutral SB on reactions but you CANT react to the mixup that he has.Whether he GBs or let's it fly,you can't tell.Rolling away is everything but 'countering' all you do is lose even more stamina just for Warden to put your right back into it.

But ofcourse,none of that matters because you "can react to it" even though everyone agrees that it's a 50/50.
What's next? PK's zone is "TOTALLY REACTABLE IF I FOCUS".
It's really no use arguing with you when it's the same argument over and over again.

Losing stamina means basically nothing unless you're fighting very specific matchups. and this isn't one of those. Warden has little OOS game.
so far you're the only one here in this thread i've seen call it a 50/50. which again it's not because you can roll out of it. Stop using terms you don't understand.
if it's pointless to argue with them why bother continuing to repeat your argument? (which you just slammed him for repeating btw) and just ignore and move on?

WastedPunk
03-06-2018, 12:21 PM
"Lose stamina means nothing.Warden has little OOS game"
Seriously? Because either being able to SB that depletes the stamina or being able to Soft feint the SB into GB that can catch even the most mobile heroes mid dodge isn't good "oos game"?
You can't even roll away in oos which negates your argument about dodging away when you clearly can't.

Please tell me,how can anyone humanely be able to react to SB MIXUPS? But ofcourse,you can lol

Knight_Raime
03-06-2018, 12:28 PM
"Lose stamina means nothing.Warden has little OOS game"
Seriously? Because either being able to SB that depletes the stamina or being able to Soft feint the SB into GB that can catch even the most mobile heroes mid dodge isn't good "oos game"?
You can't even roll away in oos which negates your argument about dodging away when you clearly can't.

Please tell me,how can anyone humanely be able to react to SB MIXUPS? But ofcourse,you can lol

Because if i'm OOS and i'm not directly in front of you I can just continue to back dash to avoid any SB you drop from neutral.
If you try to run all the way to GB me I can just tech it while moving back. Or if i'm basically almost out of OOS I can throw a slow light at you to deter you.
and if you get semi close and go for a full charge SB I can just back away more and then GB you.

Charmzzz
03-06-2018, 12:31 PM
"Lose stamina means nothing.Warden has little OOS game"
Seriously? Because either being able to SB that depletes the stamina or being able to Soft feint the SB into GB that can catch even the most mobile heroes mid dodge isn't good "oos game"?
You can't even roll away in oos which negates your argument about dodging away when you clearly can't.

Please tell me,how can anyone humanely be able to react to SB MIXUPS? But ofcourse,you can lol

SB into Bash - 700ms - 400ms on startup to cancel into GB or feint - this makes it completely reactable. If Warden does not feint or cancel into GB right after startup - he can just let it fly.

Now to PK Zone - it always comes from your right - keep your guard there and you completely negate it. And even if you dont want to do that, it is still a 400ms move like Shaman predator pounces. If you get hit by PK using only Zone, why dont you just put your guard there and react to every other attack as it is a "normal" 500ms one? And not to forget, PK can use Zone twice before being in critical range of being OOS. That would be 40 damage. If I do this in my MMR I will eat a parry on the next one for sure...

WastedPunk
03-06-2018, 12:41 PM
SB into Bash - 700ms - 400ms on startup to cancel into GB or feint - this makes it completely reactable. If Warden does not feint or cancel into GB right after startup - he can just let it fly.

So 300ms is good enough time to make an attack reactable?

Now to PK Zone - it always comes from your right - keep your guard there and you completely negate it. And even if you dont want to do that, it is still a 400ms move like Shaman predator pounces. If you get hit by PK using only Zone, why dont you just put your guard there and react to every other attack as it is a "normal" 500ms one? And not to forget, PK can use Zone twice before being in critical range of being OOS. That would be 40 damage. If I do this in my MMR I will eat a parry on the next one for sure...

Much like rolling away,"keeping your guard to the right" only lets you block it while being open to attacks from the other 2 sides.
Just like the guy above said,Risk:Reward ratio needs to be equal.
But yes ignore PK's zone since it can be blocked one way or another.

What about CCs(the whole point of this thread) that are 500ms and are UN-PUNISHABLE even if you react correctly because of the dodge recovery.

Charmzzz
03-06-2018, 12:49 PM
Much like rolling away,"keeping your guard to the right" only lets you block it while being open to attacks from the other 2 sides.
Just like the guy above said,Risk:Reward ratio needs to be equal.
But yes ignore PK's zone since it can be blocked one way or another.

What about CCs(the whole point of this thread) that are 500ms and are UN-PUNISHABLE even if you react correctly because of the dodge recovery.

Your rewards for placing your guard right are:
1. negating a fast attack
2. enabling you to parry it if the PK still tries to use it
3. if you only block the Zone it will cost the PK half her stamina

Isn't that enough for just placing your guard to a specific direction? And further, why is it harder to block a 500ms move vs a PK than vs any other Hero (cause almost every one has access to a 500ms move)?

Which CC are you referring to? And why every Hero has to be able to punish e.g. Conq SB or WL Headbutt on dodge? That is an Asssassin playstyle and should be true for Assassins, not everyone. HL has other things going for him, like crushing counter in every direction, Hyperarmor moves, offensive stance for UB and his CC mixup. If the HL let's the Conq getting close enough for his SB mindgame, well, he failed to use his range...

BarbeQMichael
03-06-2018, 12:54 PM
And why every Hero has to be able to punish e.g. Conq SB or WL Headbutt on dodge?

Because if you have an attack which can only reward you while risking nothing, it is fundamentally wrong.

WastedPunk
03-06-2018, 12:58 PM
Which CC are you referring to? And why every Hero has to be able to punish e.g. Conq SB or WL Headbutt on dodge? That is an Asssassin playstyle and should be true for Assassins, not everyone. HL has other things going for him, like crushing counter in every direction, Hyperarmor moves, offensive stance for UB and his CC mixup. If the HL let's the Conq getting close enough for his SB mindgame, well, he failed to use his range...

Because if it's un-punishable,then it encourages spam.Why should I NOT spam a cc if it's un punishable?

Charmzzz
03-06-2018, 12:59 PM
Because if you have an attack which can only reward you while risking nothing, it is fundamentally wrong.

Uhm, Conq has to dodge before he can initiate his SB, same goes for WL on headbutt. Sooo you could GB him in that duration. Risk is there, even if you are not an Assassin.

Charmzzz
03-06-2018, 01:01 PM
Because if it's un-punishable,then it encourages spam.Why should I NOT spam a cc if it's un punishable?

Well, for HL it is an unfavourable matchup. But that does not make the move itself "OP".

BarbeQMichael
03-06-2018, 01:04 PM
Uhm, Conq has to dodge before he can initiate his SB, same goes for WL on headbutt. Sooo you could GB him in that duration. Risk is there, even if you are not an Assassin.

You would need to be withing gb distance to do that, and if I remember right both those moves start 100ms into the dodge which is impossible time to react for vast majority if not all.

E:Checked, unless changed in some recent patches both headbutt and shieldbash are 500ms moves which start 100ms into the dodge making it total of 600ms move. So you would need reaction time of lower than 100ms (usually ping alone is close to this) to guardbreak them. I've yet to see a player with such reflexes.

WastedPunk
03-06-2018, 01:10 PM
Well, for HL it is an unfavourable matchup. But that does not make the move itself "OP".
Where did HL even come from?
How is it not op if it's un-punishable? That's whole reason anything is even considered "OP". If it rewards you with no risk taken.
So to you, absolutely nothing is OP right? Whether if it's un-reactable or un-punishable.

Charmzzz
03-06-2018, 01:28 PM
You would need to be withing gb distance to do that, and if I remember right both those moves start 100ms into the dodge which is impossible time to react for vast majority if not all.

If you are not in GB range - Conq is not in range to put pressure on you with his SB because you have enough time to throw out a light to counter it.


Where did HL even come from?
How is it not op if it's un-punishable? That's whole reason anything is even considered "OP". If it rewards you with no risk taken.
So to you, absolutely nothing is OP right? Whether if it's un-reactable or un-punishable.

Wait, your video "evidence" showed a Conq - HL matchup. And now you ask where the HL came from? Seriously?

It is not unpunishable, I punish it regularly. If some Character cannot punish it then it is a problem with the Character, not the move itself. The rest of your post is just insulting and aggressive behavior, won't comment on that.

Kahuf1
03-06-2018, 01:36 PM
Guys, what about idea to make some "safest" openers high stamina cost? Or all openers will just cost like 1,5x more stamina then before? Opener should be to open enemy to do some react or move, not to spam as hell. Shieldbash of warden is good opener (maybe hard to guess cause softfeint into GB), the same shieldbash from Conqueror, but if it takes more stamina, here is more posibilities and more chances.

Ur opinions?

BarbeQMichael
03-06-2018, 01:37 PM
If you are not in GB range - Conq is not in range to put pressure on you with his SB because you have enough time to throw out a light to counter it.


Even if you are in gb range, you have to react in under 100ms. That is superhuman reaction speed. I am not able to do it, and >99% of the population can't.

WastedPunk
03-06-2018, 01:43 PM
Even if you are in gb range, you have to react in under 100ms. That is superhuman reaction speed. I am not able to do it, and >99% of the population can't.
Just because you can't doesn't mean no one else can.
Charmzz over here can react to anything! Nothing is OP in this game and if you say otherwise it's because YOU suck.

BarbeQMichael
03-06-2018, 01:47 PM
Just because you can't doesn't mean no one else can.
Charmzz over here can react to anything! Nothing is OP in this game and if you say otherwise it's because YOU suck.

True, there are certainly people with such reflexes, they are just incredibly rare. Googling around reaction times you can see there is a handful of persons who can react in 100ms, while the median is somewhere between 250-300ms. Adding in ping and input lag as for this game would mean median player is capable of reacting to 400-500ms moves.

Charmzzz
03-06-2018, 01:53 PM
Just because you can't doesn't mean no one else can.
Charmzz over here can react to anything! Nothing is OP in this game and if you say otherwise it's because YOU suck.

Holy, you are biased... As I, and several others here, said: Conq - HL is an unfavourable matchup for HL. But that does not make Conq Shieldbash "OP". Every Character with a dodge-attack can easily punish it. Every Character with low dodge recovery times can punish it. HL should use his range and go offensive asap for a kick-cabertoss mixup when facing a Conq.

I cannot react to anything. I currently have problems with Zerker feint-games and Shaman Zone / unblockable mixups. But that does not make those moves or chains "OP". I just didn't learn what to do properly.

Stop being so aggressive please. I never said that someone "su*ks", just that maybe he has to learn a different behavior in certain situations. Maybe he is just too slow. But all of this does not make a move "OP".

Inb4 they nerf Conq SB and you coming to forums "in triumph" - and Conq being trash again. ^^

Charmzzz
03-06-2018, 01:57 PM
True, there are certainly people with such reflexes, they are just incredibly rare. Googling around reaction times you can see there is a handful of persons who can react in 100ms, while the median is somewhere between 250-300ms. Adding in ping and input lag as for this game would mean median player is capable of reacting to 400-500ms moves.

You don't have to react in 100ms. You can just throw out a GB from time to time if you face a SB spamming Conq. Or a light if he comes near. I do this all the time vs Conqs because they all spam SB atm. I play aggresive on them because the only thing they can do as an opener is the dodge into SB. My lights and occasional GB's will make it hard for any Conq to get his SB going. Sometimes I fail, sure, but being able to prevent someone from using an "OP" move negates it as being "OP".

BarbeQMichael
03-06-2018, 02:01 PM
You don't have to react in 100ms. You can just throw out a GB from time to time if you face a SB spamming Conq. Or a light if he comes near. I do this all the time vs Conqs because they all spam SB atm. I play aggresive on them because the only thing they can do as an opener is the dodge into SB. My lights and occasional GB's will make it hard for any Conq to get his SB going. Sometimes I fail, sure, but being able to prevent someone from using an "OP" move negates it as being "OP".

Anyone can get lucky with random guardbreaks or attacks, but this was not the point. This case was about if you can punish certain moves by reaction, and it turns out it is possible if you can react in 100ms.


HL should use his range and go offensive asap for a kick-cabertoss mixup when facing a Conq.

This will not work, as dodgeattacks are compelete negation to the kick/toss. Conq can initiate his bash from side dodge too so it is a direct counter for kick or toss.

Charmzzz
03-06-2018, 02:07 PM
Anyone can get lucky with random guardbreaks or attacks, but this was not the point. This case was about if you can punish certain moves by reaction, and it turns out it is possible if you can react in 100ms.

Which is true for the GB on reaction. Other Characters than HL have punish tools (e.g. Hyperarmor, 400/500ms attacks, dodge-attacks, Riptide Strike, not sure about Hidden Stance). Most of the roster CAN punish Conq SB attempts. HL cannot. "OP"!!! ;)

BarbeQMichael
03-06-2018, 02:12 PM
Which is true for the GB on reaction. Other Characters than HL have punish tools (e.g. Hyperarmor, 400/500ms attacks, dodge-attacks, Riptide Strike, not sure about Hidden Stance). Most of the roster CAN punish Conq SB attempts. HL cannot. "OP"!!! ;)

I am not saying it is op, please stay on topic. You said yourself, that not every character should be able to counter fast melees. I think no character should have safe moves which guarantee damage without risk. And it turns out characters without dodgeattacks or low dodge recoveries cannot counter them unless the player has 100ms reaction time.

Charmzzz
03-06-2018, 02:22 PM
I am not saying it is op, please stay on topic. You said yourself, that not every character should be able to counter fast melees. I think no character should have safe moves which guarantee damage without risk. And it turns out characters without dodgeattacks or low dodge recoveries cannot counter them unless the player has 100ms reaction time.

Even the OP does not stay on topic, why should I? :confused:

You forgot fast attacks in your list, sooo it all comes down to HL I think. He is the only one who cannot punish Conq SB regularly. Buff HL dodge recoveries and we are good?

BarbeQMichael
03-06-2018, 02:30 PM
Even the OP does not stay on topic, why should I? :confused:

You forgot fast attacks in your list, sooo it all comes down to HL I think. He is the only one who cannot punish Conq SB regularly. Buff HL dodge recoveries and we are good?

With 500ms light attack you still need 100ms reaction time because the bash 500+100. 400ms attack is nice but not many have them. HL's dodge recoveries could use buffing that I agree, and maybe even one 500ms attack from top like lawdaddy.

Charmzzz
03-06-2018, 02:42 PM
With 500ms light attack you still need 100ms reaction time because the bash 500+100. 400ms attack is nice but not many have them. HL's dodge recoveries could use buffing that I agree, and maybe even one 500ms attack from top like lawdaddy.

Nope, no 500ms attack for HL as he can countercrush on all directions already. That would make his defensive stance too good and nobody would go offensive stance anymore... Buff dodge recovery so he gets a light or gb on a dodged SB.

BarbeQMichael
03-06-2018, 02:48 PM
Nope, no 500ms attack for HL as he can countercrush on all directions already. That would make his defensive stance too good and nobody would go offensive stance anymore... Buff dodge recovery so he gets a light or gb on a dodged SB.

I have kind of mixed feelings of the countercrush, it is a nice when you can use it but because of 200ms delay you can use it mostly on heavies, and that is my favourite way of killing highlanders because you can easily parry the 600ms light after your heavy feint. But I guess this is another topic :D

Charmzzz
03-06-2018, 03:12 PM
I have kind of mixed feelings of the countercrush, it is a nice when you can use it but because of 200ms delay you can use it mostly on heavies, and that is my favourite way of killing highlanders because you can easily parry the 600ms light after your heavy feint. But I guess this is another topic :D

200ms delay? 200ms timeframe for the HL to initiate it! Iirc. Same for Warden, you have a 200ms window on your top light to get the crushing counter. No delay.

BarbeQMichael
03-06-2018, 03:54 PM
200ms delay? 200ms timeframe for the HL to initiate it! Iirc. Same for Warden, you have a 200ms window on your top light to get the crushing counter. No delay.

Warden's and HL's CC works the same, it has 100ms delay after the light swings for it to turn into cc. I added to that 100ms guardchange too, as you very rarely attack from direction where your opponent is already holding his guard. Warden's cc can be baited out just the same, but his top light is 500ms so it is harder to parry.

Knight_Raime
03-06-2018, 10:41 PM
You would need to be withing gb distance to do that, and if I remember right both those moves start 100ms into the dodge which is impossible time to react for vast majority if not all.

E:Checked, unless changed in some recent patches both headbutt and shieldbash are 500ms moves which start 100ms into the dodge making it total of 600ms move. So you would need reaction time of lower than 100ms (usually ping alone is close to this) to guardbreak them. I've yet to see a player with such reflexes.

I'm not currently aware of warlords headbutt timing. But I know it's slower than conqs.
And you're seeing this a bit wrong. in both conq and warlords case you're not reacting to the move. You're reacting to the dodge.
Also conq wise the time it takes from his bash to start and finish if you let it rip as early as possible is 300-400ms.

Just because an attack starts that soon doesn't make the attack that fast.
It's the same thing with shaman's side dodge attack. She can start it as early as 200ms. But the attack itself doesn't start and complete in that time.
And you're reacting to her dodge. Not the attack itself.

BarbeQMichael
03-06-2018, 10:53 PM
I'm not currently aware of warlords headbutt timing. But I know it's slower than conqs.
And you're seeing this a bit wrong. in both conq and warlords case you're not reacting to the move. You're reacting to the dodge.
Also conq wise the time it takes from his bash to start and finish if you let it rip as early as possible is 300-400ms.

Just because an attack starts that soon doesn't make the attack that fast.
It's the same thing with shaman's side dodge attack. She can start it as early as 200ms. But the attack itself doesn't start and complete in that time.
And you're reacting to her dodge. Not the attack itself.

Yes, we wanted to react to the dodge with guardbreak, as that can be grabbed but the actual move not. The dodge turns into bash/headbutt 100ms after the start of the dodge, so that is the window when it would be possible to be guardbroken with impressive luck. Warlord headbutt and conq bash are both 500ms moves, which when you add the dodge startup of 100ms adds to 600ms.

Knight_Raime
03-07-2018, 08:31 AM
Yes, we wanted to react to the dodge with guardbreak, as that can be grabbed but the actual move not. The dodge turns into bash/headbutt 100ms after the start of the dodge, so that is the window when it would be possible to be guardbroken with impressive luck. Warlord headbutt and conq bash are both 500ms moves, which when you add the dodge startup of 100ms adds to 600ms.

If you're attempting to GB either a warlord headbutt or a conq bash before it starts i'm like 90% sure only raider would be capable of that since he can GB mid dodge.
every other time someone usually refers to GBing it is dodging the move itself and then landing a GB.

Sauronbaine
03-07-2018, 09:03 AM
Don't look at FHTR Score, that is BS. Look at Winrate, K/D and K/D/A. Maybe even KPM. Above mediocre, ok, but not high level. When you are facing Clutchmeister, Setmyx, Playfiends and those guys, then come again and talk about unbalanced stuff. I tell you, Clutch will eat you alive with his Valk... :D

I fight Playfeinds in brawls... but I dont find him very good. I keep up with him quite often... well when I try. I play too many different characters.

BarbeQMichael
03-07-2018, 09:37 AM
If you're attempting to GB either a warlord headbutt or a conq bash before it starts i'm like 90% sure only raider would be capable of that since he can GB mid dodge.
every other time someone usually refers to GBing it is dodging the move itself and then landing a GB.

Every character's gbs work the same, so every character can guardbreak other characters when they dodge, provided they themselves do it from neutral (no cooldowns). You are referring to dodge recovery, there are 2 kinds of them. First is the recovery time after which you can perform gb/cgb, another concerns the rest of actions such as new attacks. Usually assassin style heroes have both low, but Raider has the GB recovery 2nd lowest (200ms) after kensei's 100ms, which means he can guardbreak almost immediately after dodge, so he can counter ie. lawbringers gb after shove even if raider dodges.

Yes, usually when talking about gb'ing those 2 moves people mean dodging the bash and then using low dash gb recovery they can gb the wl or conq. But heroes with long dash recoveries cannot do it. For them it would still be possible to gb at the same time when they dodge to initiate the bash, but unless you have superhuman reflexes it is down to luck. My WL has been guardbroken in that way once, but considering how bad the enemy was at parrying it was surely just luck.

Knight_Raime
03-07-2018, 09:55 AM
Every character's gbs work the same, so every character can guardbreak other characters when they dodge, provided they themselves do it from neutral (no cooldowns). You are referring to dodge recovery, there are 2 kinds of them. First is the recovery time after which you can perform gb/cgb, another concerns the rest of actions such as new attacks. Usually assassin style heroes have both low, but Raider has the GB recovery 2nd lowest (200ms) after kensei's 100ms, which means he can guardbreak almost immediately after dodge, so he can counter ie. lawbringers gb after shove even if raider dodges.

Yes, usually when talking about gb'ing those 2 moves people mean dodging the bash and then using low dash gb recovery they can gb the wl or conq. But heroes with long dash recoveries cannot do it. For them it would still be possible to gb at the same time when they dodge to initiate the bash, but unless you have superhuman reflexes it is down to luck. My WL has been guardbroken in that way once, but considering how bad the enemy was at parrying it was surely just luck.

I'm confused then because I read kensei's dodge recovery is 700ms. as he gets free GBed so often.

BarbeQMichael
03-07-2018, 09:59 AM
I'm confused then because I read kensei's dodge recovery is 700ms. as he gets free GBed so often.

Well that was kind of bad example without more explaining, kensei is a little special snowflake with his dodge gb recovery, it works only on forward dash. But you see that in action when fighting a kensei and you attack, kensei does a forward dodge, blocks the attack and gets a free gb of you. Raider has better overall dodge gb recoveries though, the kensei is a special case.

RenegadeTX2000
03-07-2018, 11:00 AM
https://youtu.be/D7KMTjmfBaE?t=225

That's what the match up in general looks like from highlanders point of view. but in reality Conq needs to overwhelm highlander immediately and keep him out of OF as long as possible...

55-45 at best? 6-4 at worse in Conq's favor either away.

EDIT:::: Time stamp didn't work for some odd reason but the match starts at 3:45 so you have an idea.

Knight_Raime
03-07-2018, 12:54 PM
^ inb4 "he was clearly a bad conq."
good footage. also. dunno if you knew but if you dodge in OF after letting a balors might go you cut the recovery of the move rather decently.

RenegadeTX2000
03-07-2018, 01:10 PM
^ inb4 "he was clearly a bad conq."
good footage. also. dunno if you knew but if you dodge in OF after letting a balors might go you cut the recovery of the move rather decently.

Yeah, but I wasn't too worried about being punished where i was throwing the move from. I whiff on purpose at a set distance so my opponent thinks he can whiff punish me.

Knight_Raime
03-07-2018, 01:13 PM
Yeah, but I wasn't too worried about being punished where i was throwing the move from. I whiff on purpose at a set distance so my opponent thinks he can whiff punish me.

I still can't believe some people fall for whiffs.
Was doing that rather often today on zerk.

D3dicatedSrv3rz
03-07-2018, 02:55 PM
be nice if the guard break on the side dodges were kept while the 4 foot glide to connect a back dodging opponent was removed.

CandleInTheDark
03-07-2018, 03:22 PM
EDIT:::: Time stamp didn't work for some odd reason but the match starts at 3:45 so you have an idea.

Good footage. timestamp didn't work because you used the video tag, had you left the link as is letting people go to youtube they would have been taken to the right place.

BarbeQMichael
03-07-2018, 03:32 PM
https://youtu.be/D7KMTjmfBaE?t=225

That's what the match up in general looks like from highlanders point of view. but in reality Conq needs to overwhelm highlander immediately and keep him out of OF as long as possible...

55-45 at best? 6-4 at worse in Conq's favor either away.

EDIT:::: Time stamp didn't work for some odd reason but the match starts at 3:45 so you have an idea.

Nice highlanding there. A great example how the underdog can overpower his opponent against the odds by simply playing much better.

Netcode_err_404
03-07-2018, 05:44 PM
https://youtu.be/D7KMTjmfBaE?t=225

That's what the match up in general looks like from highlanders point of view. but in reality Conq needs to overwhelm highlander immediately and keep him out of OF as long as possible...

55-45 at best? 6-4 at worse in Conq's favor either away.

EDIT:::: Time stamp didn't work for some odd reason but the match starts at 3:45 so you have an idea.



Before the kensei lame buff, i killed a couple of rep 20 sciamans, even on "competittive" ( lol, cannot laugh here) mode.

So what ? Kensei was Op and sciaman needed a buff ?

Are you guys consciuos about the fact that these clips mean nothing at all ? Some of the best tekken players in the world, regularly lose against normal ppl during streams, so what ? LOL

RenegadeTX2000
03-07-2018, 09:46 PM
I still can't believe some people fall for whiffs.
Was doing that rather often today on zerk.

I whiff at a distance to where my attacks would land if I move forward with them. What makes highlanders baylors might so great in neutral is he can attack in all directions to manipulate the actual distance he can actually land the attack from. Believe it or not that move has "kensei range" and will tag you from a good distance. That's why people don't parry it when I throw it because they think it will be me whiffing the move until it's too late. So then i start mixing up moving to the side baylors might and backwards baylor might. If they randomly approach me, backwards moving baylors might tags them, if they stand still I can whiff right in front of them to bait a parry form them which I can Offensive Light them, cancel into something else, or parry or crushing counter or cancel recovery on whiff and side dodge like you mentioned...

https://youtu.be/uJtodXjmu1U?t=39

Check that out... You can see me clearly retreating with Baylors Might and when he over extended he actually got punished for it. Baylors might is amazing in neutral for the fact you don't know when it will land and when it will not. I know when it will land though but on my opponents behalf he has to be on his toes constantly. Also I can feint baylors might into offensive light to throw off his timing and also retreat with offensive light to manipulate spacing.

Another good way to manipulate spacing, believe it or not but canceling baylors might into Caber toss has better range than canceling kick into caber toss for the simple fact baylors might gives him more forward movement before the cancel compared to kick cancel. Kick only gets distance when you follow through with the move itself, while baylors might can get distance by a cancel attempt.. That's why it looked like I did a Moon Walk. Kenseis Zone on the other hand... THat is True moon walking lol

That's what makes me more unique than Hound Of Tara... I take Offensive stance to the next level by manipulating space by knowing Highlanders true range and the hero's range that i'm playing against.