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View Full Version : You can't make people play aggressive...



Knight_Raime
03-04-2018, 12:07 AM
,,,only people who want to play aggressive will do so. It's a statement my sparring partner made while we were having some meta talk about for honor yesterday. We all really didn't enjoy the overly defensive meta. We wanted to make kits better so they feel like they could be more aggressive. And don't get me wrong I still want this. But lately i've been seeing so many suggestions that just want to make defense useless. Or rather. Almost every half baked rework thread I find the solution is almost always unblockable from neutral, armor on attacks, etc. I'm going to make a statement that's going to blow your mind.

it's OKAY if someone is able to block and react to everything you do passively. This as a concept isn't bad. The idea of for honor was more close to fencing than an actual fighter. And in fencing it's all about mind gaming to get in on your opponent to strike blows that will either widdle them down or end them quickly. Now. I'm not saying we shouldn't see more "reworks" or major balance passes for heros. The problem with launch version of FH was that defensive play was highly rewarded and some kits were just too easy to defend against. I 100% back all the base game mechanic changes. Beyond the current changes I'd only like to see dash recovery and distances looked at for the whole roster. (maaaaaaybe rolls too.)

But I can't say I 100% agree with all hero reworks/changes done so far. Or that any of the DLC heros are actually fine for FH (besides aramusha and highlander.) I get why they changed zerk and conq the way they did. and it works. beautifully. But I don't like it conceptually if that makes sense. Really the only 2 heros that I feel "reworks" have actually helped in a good way not just for themselves but for the game is raider and kensei.

I know i'm rambling here so let me just cut to the chase. I honestly don't think we need anymore "reworks" on the level of kensei, zerk, and conq. I think the rest of the cast can absolutely be buffed up with major balance passes like bushi and highlander. I can see them adding new combos in. like they did with kensei. but beyond that I don't think more is needed.

Look back at my opening statement. "you can't make people play aggressive. only people who want to play aggressive will do so." Whenever I spar with my friend for honor feels like how it should have been. We both are making active attempts to open eachother and throwing things that are not safe occasionally. it's a lovely back and forth. (if requested I could even attempt to stream me and him dueling sometime.) While we'd all like the game to be like that we can't force it. We just needed to remove the rewards from defending.

I want to say that while I could sit here and probably give a detailed rework on every remaining hero (and dlc hero) I'm going to avoid doing so because my suggestions would only push this game closer to a real fighter. which as much as i'd like to see that I just don't think this game should go that way. Maybe the next FH title. Ideally what i'd like to see is every remaining hero (including dlc heros) receive a major balance pass. barring the heros season 5 has already touched. Then once every hero has been rounded out UBI can and should take the time to try and pull the game back a little bit. at least with a few dlc heros. Maybe other heros too if the major balance pass creates issues with some OG heros power wise. Point is we'd be rounding heros off to feel more complete. then dialing the game back a bit so it's a bit more about fencing. (albeit slightly more aggressive.)

I will end this thread with one major balance pass idea of my own. For shugoki:
~passive Armor is now gone. Instead goki naturally takes reduced damage on opening moves. But normal damage from combos.
~Goki now has a light into heavy combo.
~Goki now has active armor on his attacks. meaning if goki wants to trade goki has to potentially risk something.
~Goki's charging heavies now become unblockable much sooner. and can be feinted.
~Goki now has 600ms dodge recovery.
~Goki now has better recovery so people can't just get ez GB's on nearly everything he does.
~Goki has better dash distance.
~Goki's demon ball will knock people down when they're OOS (or he's in revenge.)
~Goki's demon embrace no longer varies value wise. It's consistent regardless of his health. No longer can OHK in critical. Landing a demons embrace now gives passive armor. it will withstand 2 hits. Gb's have no effect on it.

Thanks for reading.

High-Horse
03-04-2018, 04:49 AM
I agree that some ideas can be pretty outlandish, but I think it's less about forcing players to play aggressive than it is about making aggressive, risky play more rewarding vs safer, defensive play. I also don't want a aggro spam fest either. I think we're approaching a balance where all heroes can be on near equal footing without homogenizing them.

The key tho is that aggressive play should be difficult to pull off on top of being risky. On that point, I think Shaman and Glad are too easy to be aggressive with, but the difference is Glad is extra risky for that Easy difficulty tag.

But anyway, main point is I agree and hope they can maintain a healthy balance between aggression and defense.

Knight_Raime
03-04-2018, 09:35 AM
I agree that some ideas can be pretty outlandish, but I think it's less about forcing players to play aggressive than it is about making aggressive, risky play more rewarding vs safer, defensive play. I also don't want a aggro spam fest either. I think we're approaching a balance where all heroes can be on near equal footing without homogenizing them.

The key tho is that aggressive play should be difficult to pull off on top of being risky. On that point, I think Shaman and Glad are too easy to be aggressive with, but the difference is Glad is extra risky for that Easy difficulty tag.

But anyway, main point is I agree and hope they can maintain a healthy balance between aggression and defense.

Let me try to reclarify what I was getting at.
I'm not against them making changes or additions to kits to allow for more aggressive play.
I'm just saying so far it seems to be more common to ignore defensive play than it is to just give options.

Kensei is given many soft feints and some additional kit flow. He's got options to catch his opponent off guard. Or punish a wrong read. But nothing in his kit is oppressive.
Conq's rework ignores defensive play. as for 90% of people who play he'll just bash and get free damage. Conq doesn't need to worry about a passive player unless said passive player is highly skilled.
With zerks new rework she's so oppressive that you're basically forced into a lose lose situation. You either try to block everything and eventually eat damage. or you get an unblockable to the face trying to keep up with the zerk. Or you try to go on the offense. zerk trades with you and then gets more damage on you via combos.

I don't think either conq or zerk are effectively broken. I just don't think they fit with the health of the game. If they (along with 1-3 other heros) remained as is for the most part I wouldn't be bothered. I'm more afraid that the rest of the OG cast might end up feeling this way as well if season 5 does update the rest of the OG cast like i've been told.

I'm very conflicted with gladiator because I enjoy his kit design. But I dislike how his whole "thing" is basically just "I don't care if you're blocking." And I think the only reason why he gets away with this is because barring his zone his unblockable bashes don't guarantee damage. Toe poke is a thing but resets fights rather than opens things for glad. and skewer is just parry fodder. but both still add to the whole thing of "I don't care about blocking."

I'm just disappointed with shaman. I was over the moon that they finally made a hero where the entire kit was viable at all skill levels. But after playing with her a lot more and vsing her a lot more she's just. bad. too easy to dismantle. and now that the game is more aggressive and less defensive she really can't do much. She went from being a powerful but fair hero to a boring hero that only causes frustration for people who already struggle at the game.