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pure_energist
03-03-2018, 10:30 PM
Having been away from the community this may have already been discussed; however, it is something since the character reworks I feel makes it an even more pressing issue that the developers might want to consider. Since the reworking of characters seems to be adding more unblockable attacks then this obviously translates to more unblockable attacks being thrown out during group fights. We have Revenge that is supposed to assist us in surviving these fights; and yes being able to parry will knock down an attacker any other attacking at the same time: HOWEVER, unblockable attacks almost ALWAYS have different attacks speeds then the usual heavy thrown. This attack speed difference is what greatly hinders being able to effectively defend against multiple unblockables. Parry one unblockable only to eat another that had a much slower start up and timing. So the obvious solution 'to me' is that a rework on revenge is needed. The best fix would be to simply allow revenge to block unlbockables without needing to parry them. Allow us to defend against multiple unblockables without having to worry how our parry will open us up to eat one. The other solution is to widen the window where we get multipe parries on attacks. Currently if I parry one attacker the other attacker will hit me during the animation; make it so any attacks that connect during that animation Knock down the opponent as if they were parried as well. Just a brief look at the forum has shown a lot of player base upset how the rework is now making unblockables an unwanted nuisance and the game less fun. We don't need the godlike revenge back; we just need one that is capable of keeping up with the current trend of more unblockables spamming that was created by the developers decision that they are now a big part of every characters arsenal of attacks.

CandleInTheDark
03-03-2018, 11:10 PM
Honestly do we even need revenge? The problem I have always had with this is the assumption that it is ok to get into bad situation because revenge will help to even the score. The problem I have with this is that the 4v4 modes are all team games, whether that is elimination in which the teams go until all are dead, skirmish which is a rolling 4v4 fight, dominion or tribute in which objectives are more important than kills or brawl which whether it is played as a fight or series of 1v1's is, like elimination, a go until everyone is dead kind of thing.

So the thing here is that 1vx will come for a very few reasons. In elimination, they come either because a team is short handed or someone is looking for a boost or revive when teams are otherwise evenly matched in terms of numbers. In either occasion if you are in 1vx it is because the other team is playing better than you, either in terms of they have taken your allies out or are working better as a team. Same with brawl on a smaller scale with no boosts.

In skirmish, again, the teams start with equal resources, if there is a mismatch, it is because a few people are dead and waiting the next revive spawn or someone has left the fight to look for a boost, if the former, the other team have earned that advantage, if the latter the risk is taken by that player and it is up to his team to cover for them.

In dominion and tribute, the teams are supposed to work together in order to achieve shared goals, if someone is getting into a 1vx, then that is generally through their own choosing, whether defending an objective in which case what is the rest of the team doing? If dead, again the other team are outplaying them, if alive, they are either making gains elsewhere or not achieving anything because they are playing worse against fewer numbers.

My main overall problem with it is that both sides start with equal resources, it is a matter of how well they work together or the choices they make in how those resources are utilised that should make the difference and I don't think a mechanic making one player stronger than two or three belongs in a competitive team game, especially in a case where it either overrules that a team has performed better than the other or that one player has gotten himself into a bad situation and is staying there because revenge will pop, nor should any other consideration. What I would like to see are a few team game modes with no extras, no gear,no feats, no boosts, no revenge, just the kits they have been given.

Tirik22x
03-03-2018, 11:19 PM
Honestly do we even need revenge? The problem I have always had with this is the assumption that it is ok to get into bad situation because revenge will help to even the score. The problem I have with this is that the 4v4 modes are all team games, whether that is elimination in which the teams go until all are dead, skirmish which is a rolling 4v4 fight, dominion or tribute in which objectives are more important than kills or brawl which whether it is played as a fight or series of 1v1's is, like elimination, a go until everyone is dead kind of thing.

So the thing here is that 1vx will come for a very few reasons. In elimination, they come either because a team is short handed or someone is looking for a boost or revive when teams are otherwise evenly matched in terms of numbers. In either occasion if you are in 1vx it is because the other team is playing better than you, either in terms of they have taken your allies out or are working better as a team. Same with brawl on a smaller scale with no boosts.

In skirmish, again, the teams start with equal resources, if there is a mismatch, it is because a few people are dead and waiting the next revive spawn or someone has left the fight to look for a boost, if the former, the other team have earned that advantage, if the latter the risk is taken by that player and it is up to his team to cover for them.

In dominion and tribute, the teams are supposed to work together in order to achieve shared goals, if someone is getting into a 1vx, then that is generally through their own choosing, whether defending an objective in which case what is the rest of the team doing? If dead, again the other team are outplaying them, if alive, they are either making gains elsewhere or not achieving anything because they are playing worse against fewer numbers.

My main overall problem with it is that both sides start with equal resources, it is a matter of how well they work together or the choices they make in how those resources are utilised that should make the difference and I don't think a mechanic making one player stronger, than two or three belongs in a competitive team game, especially in a case where it either overrules that a team has performed better than the other or that one player has gotten himself into a bad situation and is staying there because revenge will pop, nor should any other consideration. What I would like to see are a few team game modes with no extras, no gear,no feats, no boosts, no revenge, just the kits they have been given.

This... was ridiculous.

And entertaining the idea of no revenge with an actual rebuttal is literally not even needed.

“We shouldn’t get revenge bc the other team is doing better” I’m sorry... but, Daaaa***?

CandleInTheDark
03-03-2018, 11:21 PM
This... was ridiculous.

And entertaining the idea of no revenge with an actual rebuttal is literally not even needed.

“We shouldn’t get revenge bc the other team is doing better” I’m sorry... but, Daaaa***?

"The other team is doing better,so I, as a single player, should be stronger than two or three others on that team,to make up for it", to me, that is the ridiculous concept.

swiss_soldier_1
03-03-2018, 11:21 PM
The best fix would be to simply allow revenge to block unlbockables without needing to parry them.

this is a simple yet very effective solution. i support it.

maybe they could also add two different types of revenge, one (normal one) that comes in 1v1 and 1v2 fights, and super revenge if you are facing 3+ opponents, which would grant you the ability to just block the unblockables

Waynedetta40k
03-03-2018, 11:27 PM
Honestly do we even need revenge? The problem I have always had with this is the assumption that it is ok to get into bad situation .

Dont get me wrong I do not completly disagree with all what you say but this sentence is kinda wrong.
Going into a 1v2 Situation is only bad play because Revenge is bad. If revenge was actually decent going 1v2 wasnt a bad decision. So this is kinda not an arguement because it is already a consequence of the topic, revenge is beeing bad.

I agree 4v4 modes should somewhat encourage teamplay but not deathball. Deathballing sucks it feels like cluster**** and this combatsystem doesnt support it. Sometimes my camera bugs behind wall if multiple people hit me, Everything glows its confusing af.

Force people to actually make splitting/walking together important decisions and not just "go as 4 and throw unblockables" because that is what it feels most of the time right now. 4v4 feels like ******** cluster****.



My main overall problem with it is that both sides start with equal resources, it is a matter of how well they work together .

Dont make it sound as it was tought out decision making in 4v4 right now because it isnt.
Its just luck if your mates want to communicate or actually just walk as team or not and how good the enemy team goes together on the very lowest level of decisionmaking: Deathball yay or nay? If I go with 4 people the most efficient tactic is easylie played an achieved there is no difficulty behind it but its unfun.

Deathball rotating there is no magic behind it, no complex teamplay like you make it sound.


that comes in 1v1

Hell NO **** NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I dont even in particuliar want revenge to be buffed. I want deathballing to be punished.

Knight_Raime
03-03-2018, 11:27 PM
I can understand why people want revenge buffed. I just don't agree with it.
Revenge is supposed to give you a chance to deal with being ganked. Not give you a win with it. I have witnessed lots of people on YT and streams use revenge to beat ganks with a variety of heros regardless of unblockable spam used against them or not.

The real problem isn't that revenge isn't strong enough but that 4v4 (at least dominion) does absolutely nothing to discourage ganking what so ever. imo dominion needs a rework (which I convienantly had a thread for) so there is more emphasis on defending points rather than slaying to get to the score limit faster.

It would also help if feats received a few big changes (something I discuss in that same thread) and they introduced deminishing returns for 4v4.

Knight_Raime
03-03-2018, 11:29 PM
Dont get me wrong I do not completly disagree with all what you say but this sentence is kinda wrong.
Going into a 1v2 Situation is only bad play because Revenge is bad. If revenge was actually decent going 1v2 wasnt a bad decision. So this is kinda not an arguement because it is already a consequence of the topic, revenge is beeing bad.

I agree 4v4 modes should somewhat encourage teamplay but not deathball. Deathballing sucks it feels like cluster**** and this combatsystem doesnt support it. Sometimes my camera bugs behind wall if multiple people hit me, Everything glows its confusing af.

Force people to actually make splitting/walking together important decisions and not just "go as 4 and throw unblockables" because that is what it feels most of the time right now. 4v4 feels like ******** cluster****.

The point candle is making is that revenge shouldn't be used to give you the w in 1vx situations. and that typically speaking if the enemy team has a number advantage on you it's either because you were out of position and thus deserve the death. or the enemy team played better. in either situation no player should reasonably expect to win. Revenge or not.

Waynedetta40k
03-03-2018, 11:39 PM
The point candle is making is that revenge shouldn't be used to give you the w in 1vx situations. and that typically speaking if the enemy team has a number advantage on you it's either because you were out of position and thus deserve the death. or the enemy team played better. in either situation no player should reasonably expect to win. Revenge or not.

Yes and what I said is them counting on Numberadvantage is only good because revenge is bad.




The real problem isn't that revenge isn't strong enough but that 4v4 (at least dominion) does absolutely nothing to discourage ganking what so ever. imo dominion needs a rework (which I convienantly had a thread for) so there is more emphasis on defending points rather than slaying to get to the score limit faster.




I agree on this one. Could be a step in the right direction. Personally I think the gamemodes are not choosen wisley. Iam not sure if Dominion the the form and shape we have it right now is a good mode with that combat system. The gamemodes lack creativity which is actually needed for this game.

WarGods1
03-03-2018, 11:39 PM
I defenitly agree man, I have stopped playing this game because lately all you see in dominion is cowards travelling in packs an ganking. I would love to see this revenge rework so i could crush all those cowards and make them kneel before me lol. But seriously +1 to this idea.

pure_energist
03-03-2018, 11:45 PM
Honestly do we even need revenge? The problem I have always had with this is the assumption that it is ok to get into bad situation because revenge will help to even the score. The problem I have with this is that the 4v4 modes are all team games, whether that is elimination in which the teams go until all are dead, skirmish which is a rolling 4v4 fight, dominion or tribute in which objectives are more important than kills or brawl which whether it is played as a fight or series of 1v1's is, like elimination, a go until everyone is dead kind of thing.

So the thing here is that 1vx will come for a very few reasons. In elimination, they come either because a team is short handed or someone is looking for a boost or revive when teams are otherwise evenly matched in terms of numbers. In either occasion if you are in 1vx it is because the other team is playing better than you, either in terms of they have taken your allies out or are working better as a team. Same with brawl on a smaller scale with no boosts.

In skirmish, again, the teams start with equal resources, if there is a mismatch, it is because a few people are dead and waiting the next revive spawn or someone has left the fight to look for a boost, if the former, the other team have earned that advantage, if the latter the risk is taken by that player and it is up to his team to cover for them.

In dominion and tribute, the teams are supposed to work together in order to achieve shared goals, if someone is getting into a 1vx, then that is generally through their own choosing, whether defending an objective in which case what is the rest of the team doing? If dead, again the other team are outplaying them, if alive, they are either making gains elsewhere or not achieving anything because they are playing worse against fewer numbers.

My main overall problem with it is that both sides start with equal resources, it is a matter of how well they work together or the choices they make in how those resources are utilised that should make the difference and I don't think a mechanic making one player stronger, than two or three belongs in a competitive team game, especially in a case where it either overrules that a team has performed better than the other or that one player has gotten himself into a bad situation and is staying there because revenge will pop, nor should any other consideration. What I would like to see are a few team game modes with no extras, no gear,no feats, no boosts, no revenge, just the kits they have been given.

I agree that having no revenge at all would promote more teamwork because everyone is more vulnerable now on their own. For Honor hasn't really forced team work due the safety net of revenge; and although it was nerfed you still have time to stall and wait for help or time to flee a situation you perhaps shouldn't have gotten in. By removing revenge you also greatly remove incentives to fight for a zone. If I'm on a Zone should I have to concede that zone when I see two dots heading my direction and know I probably have a small chance of surviving the encounter? I could 1 vs 2 if I feel confident and call for help and try stalling until it comes. So basically we are reducing action in the game by enticing people to play it safe or risk a high percentage death without revenge. I'm torn on the issue because I feel it forces teamwork when playing with randos would be having to hope and rely on getting good team members. As it is the game still requires some decent amount of teamwork but it isn't critical either. I'm 100% in support of a mode where revenge isn't a part of the game; perhaps the developers can experiment with this mode as an event like they did when we all played without indicators. Let the community try and see how it changes the experience and then after a test it could be another regular option. Revenge is there to give you balls to face off against 1 vs 2 or 3 when you should of called for a teammate first. There would be less action but there would be smart action. Now since thats another topic debate Id like to Know what drawbacks people would see to my revenge rework. Would it be too strong when triggered 1 vs 2? I hate it triggers is 1 vs 1 but I suppose they can't work around it or they would have.

CandleInTheDark
03-03-2018, 11:52 PM
Going into a 1v2 Situation is only bad play because Revenge is bad. If revenge was actually decent going 1v2 wasnt a bad decision. So this is kinda not an arguement because it is already a consequence of the topic, revenge is beeing bad.

If I read you correctly, you think my point is that getting into 1v2 is bad because revenge is not powerful enough to deal with 1vx, that isn't my point at all. What I am saying is people should not get into 1vx unless they feel they can handle 1vx at all and that an added power boost,especially when 1vx often comes when you are either choosing to stay in a bad position or, in the case of elimination, when the other team has outperformed yours, rewards them for bad gameplay, whether theirs or that of their team.

People are going into situations where if there was no such thing as revenge they would be considered bad choices and in my view, the revenge mechanic and buffing that rewards bad decision making and that is not how you get players to make better choices nor how to get them to work better as a team. Most people that hark back to revenge as it was in its original state, and I do not aim this in any way at the op because he specifically said that we do not need a god mode revenge, are people who felt that if more than one person attacked them then they should have a right to be as strong as the number of people attacking them like they are an end game boss in a single player mode, people were actually arguing that when the devs were telling us that changes to revenge were coming.

Yeah deathballing sucks and as Knight_Raime says the answer to that is to rework the game modes themselves to discourage that. It is punishable in the current state, I kept a deathball occupied for a minute and a half in a white zone and caused a 500 point swing, that is because my team capitalised on that though which yeah depends on the team you get.

WarGods1
03-04-2018, 12:00 AM
Honestly do we even need revenge? The problem I have always had with this is the assumption that it is ok to get into bad situation because revenge will help to even the score. The problem I have with this is that the 4v4 modes are all team games, whether that is elimination in which the teams go until all are dead, skirmish which is a rolling 4v4 fight, dominion or tribute in which objectives are more important than kills or brawl which whether it is played as a fight or series of 1v1's is, like elimination, a go until everyone is dead kind of thing.

So the thing here is that 1vx will come for a very few reasons. In elimination, they come either because a team is short handed or someone is looking for a boost or revive when teams are otherwise evenly matched in terms of numbers. In either occasion if you are in 1vx it is because the other team is playing better than you, either in terms of they have taken your allies out or are working better as a team. Same with brawl on a smaller scale with no boosts.

In skirmish, again, the teams start with equal resources, if there is a mismatch, it is because a few people are dead and waiting the next revive spawn or someone has left the fight to look for a boost, if the former, the other team have earned that advantage, if the latter the risk is taken by that player and it is up to his team to cover for them.

In dominion and tribute, the teams are supposed to work together in order to achieve shared goals, if someone is getting into a 1vx, then that is generally through their own choosing, whether defending an objective in which case what is the rest of the team doing? If dead, again the other team are outplaying them, if alive, they are either making gains elsewhere or not achieving anything because they are playing worse against fewer numbers.

My main overall problem with it is that both sides start with equal resources, it is a matter of how well they work together or the choices they make in how those resources are utilised that should make the difference and I don't think a mechanic making one player stronger, than two or three belongs in a competitive team game, especially in a case where it either overrules that a team has performed better than the other or that one player has gotten himself into a bad situation and is staying there because revenge will pop, nor should any other consideration. What I would like to see are a few team game modes with no extras, no gear,no feats, no boosts, no revenge, just the kits they have been given.

Dude you gotta understand that allot of the people liked revenge before it was useless because it gaved them a chance to fight back against multiple enemys. Not everyone here likes going around in packs ganking (where's the fun in that??). You say remove revenge altogether? Hell no i could not disagree more. I had several friends that left this game because of the direction this game has taken (I am sure many other players have stopped playing this game for this very reason). I had stayed playing this game in hopes that they will fix revenge and actually make it useful again but i don't think it's gonna happen until the games dead and then ubi will realize it.

CandleInTheDark
03-04-2018, 12:01 AM
If I'm on a Zone should I have to concede that zone when I see two dots heading my direction and know I probably have a small chance of surviving the encounter? I could 1 vs 2 if I feel confident and call for help and try stalling until it comes.

It depends, in a pug more likely than not you're screwed, if you have a group which will be more viable when servers are in and polished and there is communication going on, if we have two zones I would call for help or cede that zone, if it is a three or four strong pack, then I would tell my allies I am going to try running to back up whoever is killing soldiers or trying to take the soldier lane or who is boosting the other zone or trying to take it. on the season 4 stream, we saw that against a communicating team murderball doesn't work as they would just rotate the zones (also helped that nobushi was godly enough in the hands of the people who used her she could 1v2 and do a rolling 1v3-4 at one point).


Now since thats another topic debate Id like to Know what drawbacks people would see to my revenge rework. Would it be too strong when triggered 1 vs 2? I hate it triggers is 1 vs 1 but I suppose they can't work around it or they would have.

I wouldn't be mad at some form of either idea being tried to see how they go, I do think that they have potential to be overpowered in 1v2 but if the devs tried it in a PTS or an event then that is the purpose of seeing how changes like that would play out on a larger scale.

Waynedetta40k
03-04-2018, 12:23 AM
Dude you gotta understand that allot of the people liked revenge before it was useless because it gaved them a chance to fight back against multiple enemys.
One Reason I did quit was revenge a year ago. I had a PK taking 70% of me playing shugoki with feats and revenge on in like 2 seconds. Like a light + Zone srsly that was ********.

WarGods1
03-04-2018, 01:58 AM
One Reason I did quit was revenge a year ago. I had a PK taking 70% of me playing shugoki with feats and revenge on in like 2 seconds. Like a light + Zone srsly that was ********.

Well when the game first came out i agree revenge was op, but then again so was the gear stats back then. I don't want revenge to be like back then. But the way they changed revenge from being op to being almost useless is what pisses me off. Honestly a simple tweak to revenge so that all unblockables work as regural heavy attacks while revenge is active would make a big difference to me.

pure_energist
03-04-2018, 01:59 AM
The developers once responded to my question on their intent on how they wanted revenge to be used when they created the mechanic. They said basically it was for stalling and waiting for reinforcement or for retreat. Currently there is little stalling capability due to the unblockable spams so Id like to see it buffed to it can be useful again. I dont want more damage I dont want more health, just the ability to defend against unblockablea.

WarGods1
03-04-2018, 02:05 AM
The developers once responded to my question on their intent on how they wanted revenge to be used when they created the mechanic. They said basically it was for stalling and waiting for reinforcement or for retreat. Currently there is little stalling capability due to the unblockable spams so Id like to see it buffed to it can be useful again. I dont want more damage I dont want more health, just the ability to defend against unblockablea.

I agree completely, it is the unblockable spams that have completely taken the fun out of this game for me. Like i stated above, a simple tweak to revenge to make unblockables work as regular heavys would make a significant difference.

We.the.North
03-04-2018, 02:12 AM
I dont mind revenge giving a shield and uninterruptible. It's the auto-parry knockdown + damage boost that pisses me off.

As a Shinobi player, I already start with low health. But when an Orochi (for instance) can get 2 boosted heavy attack after he "parries" knockdown me by activating revenge and ONE SHOTS ME with that move, it's ******ed.

Add revenge gear and you have yet another thing beside ******ed feats that takes away skill from this game.

The game is a joke already past its saving point. Not even the dedicated server can fix this mess of a game design.

Tirik22x
03-04-2018, 02:28 AM
"The other team is doing better,so I, as a single player, should be stronger than two or three others on that team,to make up for it", to me, that is the ridiculous concept.

Uh... yes. Exactly.

Guess you’ve never been a leader, or underdog in a fight, or sport, and that little thing called adrenaline kicks in.

Tirik22x
03-04-2018, 02:29 AM
I defenitly agree man, I have stopped playing this game because lately all you see in dominion is cowards travelling in packs an ganking. I would love to see this revenge rework so i could crush all those cowards and make them kneel before me lol. But seriously +1 to this idea.

Exactly.

Tirik22x
03-04-2018, 02:30 AM
Ppl calling for a revenge nerf are the ppl that can’t even Xv1 someone XD

SEISMIS21
03-04-2018, 04:42 AM
Uh... yes. Exactly.

Guess you’ve never been a leader, or underdog in a fight, or sport, and that little thing called adrenaline kicks in.

Lol... What? Are you insinuating that only an underdog (or the single player facing 3 in this case) gets a rush of adrenaline? It's funny you refer to being a leader, which implies operating on a team, but all the revenge lovers out there seem to be purely, and ever so simply, single minded. Work as a team, if you are playing 4v4 games. That doesn't mean being a **** boy and cowardly ganking in a deathball. It does mean strategically moving and fighting, utilizing the full kit of your characters and trying to win. If you get revenge it gives plenty of a boost as it is right now. I am not opposed to limiting in some way the impact of unblobkables when in revenge, but they should not be negated. If you are fighting a team by yourself and they are wrecking you that is not being ganked. Being ganked is when a team roams together and when they could be fighting flour opponents they all chose one and fight only one enemy at a time, causing that enemy to stagger and be killed in a way they can't defend. If you are alone against a team you should die, people are so out of control to think them having fun and getting a monster boost to compete against the four opponents who out played their team is some how reasonable. Yeah those guys deserve to have a severe disadvantage and I deserve to have a giant boost so I can win! Who cares if they are having fun, who cares if this is fair for them, who cares if this is in any way reasonable, I deserve to have fun and f*ck what anyone else thinks! This game is supposed to be made for me to have fun, for me to win, for me to get all the advantages, and for anyone else to have to bow out my feet because ME ME MMMEEE!!!


Lol me monsters are funny, and I love laughing at them. I feel like people begging for revenge to be back in the stupid, gear stacked state of season one, those are the same people that hero hop to the OP player of the patch. People who suggest reasonable fixes or slight changes to revenge, this is not directed at you. I think there needs to be big changes with AOE and one shot kill feats, with the death all mentality of f*ckboys, and with the lame gains that are given by refining gear. I like the idea of extending the window of revenge parries to apply to any attacks initiated during a successful parry. I am not sure I think all unblobkables should just be blocked if you are in revenge, I do think changes could be beneficial.

But you me monsters, please keep getting upset and quitting the game because you don't know how to work as a team or win in any way that is fair, somehow you deserve extra boosts right? Forget anyone else, this game was made for you!!!

mrmistark
03-04-2018, 06:25 AM
It’s funny that you can’t all see what’s going on here...

EVERYONE is right in this situation. The problem here is REVENGE by design doesn’t work as intended.

Bare with me here:
-revenge is supposed to allow you to potentially survive until help comes or to run away: it can allow this sometimes, but when locked in CC and unblockable spam it sometimes does not.

- 4v4 mode is meant to be team based, but unless in a group, you’re playing with randoms. On one hand a player shouldn’t be punished for having useless teammates who can’t comprehend simple things like a “help at ____” or that we’re losing and need to “attack ____ shrine” ect. At the same time though, we also can’t be rewarding players who willingly run into a 3v1 situation because “maybe I can get sweet kills for my channel” or “I think I’m far better than I actually am because I have max revenge gain”.

All of these concerns are legitimate. The problem is you’re all arguing these points and asking for different things from revenge because REVENGE ITSELF since games RELEASE has never been working properly. I propose the reason for this is because: the mechanic that allows the most tankiness to survive for a while or run away, is also attributed with BONUS ATTACK.

The fix is so simple. TAKE AWAY ATTACK BONUS, take away uninteruptable on all attacks, give a slight buff to speed and maybe shield. This will help deter people from attributing “revenge=more power” and make it not so easy to kill others with, hell, maybe give damage debuff, but if you propose a simple game mechanic to be one thing, MAKE IT USED FOR THAT ONE THING. Give the hero more tankiness with less damage and a very small temporary speed boost to help escape if they choose that route. I wouldn’t even be apposed to a cool down where the first couple seconds make you un-hitable, much like hitting warlords all block stance but that individual with revenge will not be able to do anything but walk/run/dodge/roll. This would play into both being able to run away or waiting for help to arrive, while taking away the “we out played you, it’s 2v1, and now you just took half my health because of activation knock down and damage boost”. I’m not in love with that idea because: cowards that will delay the whole inevitable loss by running all over the map, but at least get the mechanic working as intended.

Waynedetta40k
03-04-2018, 11:53 AM
- 4v4 mode is meant to be team based, .

What kind of Teamplay does For Honor offer except Deathballganking? Literally nothing
You cant help your teammate besides throwing attacks on his opponent. Thats it

I dont understand why people give so much about teamplay when there is literally nothing but deathballing right now that could be called teamplay.

CandleInTheDark
03-04-2018, 01:47 PM
It’s funny that you can’t all see what’s going on here...

EVERYONE is right in this situation. The problem here is REVENGE by design doesn’t work as intended.

Bare with me here:
-revenge is supposed to allow you to potentially survive until help comes or to run away: it can allow this sometimes, but when locked in CC and unblockable spam it sometimes does not.

- 4v4 mode is meant to be team based, but unless in a group, you’re playing with randoms. On one hand a player shouldn’t be punished for having useless teammates who can’t comprehend simple things like a “help at ____” or that we’re losing and need to “attack ____ shrine” ect. At the same time though, we also can’t be rewarding players who willingly run into a 3v1 situation because “maybe I can get sweet kills for my channel” or “I think I’m far better than I actually am because I have max revenge gain”.

All of these concerns are legitimate. The problem is you’re all arguing these points and asking for different things from revenge because REVENGE ITSELF since games RELEASE has never been working properly. I propose the reason for this is because: the mechanic that allows the most tankiness to survive for a while or run away, is also attributed with BONUS ATTACK.

The fix is so simple. TAKE AWAY ATTACK BONUS, take away uninteruptable on all attacks, give a slight buff to speed and maybe shield. This will help deter people from attributing “revenge=more power” and make it not so easy to kill others with, hell, maybe give damage debuff, but if you propose a simple game mechanic to be one thing, MAKE IT USED FOR THAT ONE THING. Give the hero more tankiness with less damage and a very small temporary speed boost to help escape if they choose that route. I wouldn’t even be apposed to a cool down where the first couple seconds make you un-hitable, much like hitting warlords all block stance but that individual with revenge will not be able to do anything but walk/run/dodge/roll. This would play into both being able to run away or waiting for help to arrive, while taking away the “we out played you, it’s 2v1, and now you just took half my health because of activation knock down and damage boost”. I’m not in love with that idea because: cowards that will delay the whole inevitable loss by running all over the map, but at least get the mechanic working as intended.

That would be more palatable than the current state, it would probably need calling something other than revenge.My main thing is I don't think a powerup like that belongs in a team game, certainly as it stands and where people want to be akin to end game bosses should they wind up 1v4 in elimination (if you've been around since before the revenge nerf people were literally arguing this), but as you say there is also getting useless team mates so if there has to be something that is better than HAHA I knock you overand take half your health and oh here's an uninterruptible attack just as you are standing..


What kind of Teamplay does For Honor offer except Deathballganking? Literally nothing
You cant help your teammate besides throwing attacks on his opponent. Thats it

I dont understand why people give so much about teamplay when there is literally nothing but deathballing right now that could be called teamplay.

Because a good team can beat a deathball. In elimination and skirmish if they realise it is going on they can form up themselves, not played tribute enough to speak much on it but there are three tributes, unfortunately I have wound up on teams where they won't wait ten seconds, rather treat the enemy team to endless 4v1 and health gains through executions, dominion though yeah it is doable. If it gets rolling, then it relies on one or two standing their ground a short while, but say they are at c fighting two, one respawning ally goes to the soldier zone in b, one goes to a, they boost or kill soldiers until the deathball comes rolling, one of them moves to vacated c while the other tries to escape with the headstart granted by them taking his zone, by this point we're hoping it is back to 4v4 because then the fact that we hold two zones means either they need to split up or they will constantly be down two as a zone or soldier lane is abandoned in order to rotate zone captures, drawing out any time they take to get one person and watching the points gap widen. The other option is if you meet three or four in their zone, play completely passively, as conqueror, I used health on block and parries, as peacekeeper I used my dodges, my best result came as a peacekeeper where I held three in their only white zone for a minute and a half, in that timemy teammates boosted the other zone and killed soldiers, I took the death but in that time we had achieved a 500 point swing and had an unassailable lead because they decided to murderball the peacekeeper and didn't keep their eye on the actual aim of dominion. Now I was lucky to get a good team in that, I am a PUG player though when servers come for console and are polished I may join groups on the knights discord, but it happens now and then.

Tirik22x
03-04-2018, 02:15 PM
Lol... What? Are you insinuating that only an underdog (or the single player facing 3 in this case) gets a rush of adrenaline? It's funny you refer to being a leader, which implies operating on a team, but all the revenge lovers out there seem to be purely, and ever so simply, single minded. Work as a team, if you are playing 4v4 games. That doesn't mean being a **** boy and cowardly ganking in a deathball. It does mean strategically moving and fighting, utilizing the full kit of your characters and trying to win. If you get revenge it gives plenty of a boost as it is right now. I am not opposed to limiting in some way the impact of unblobkables when in revenge, but they should not be negated. If you are fighting a team by yourself and they are wrecking you that is not being ganked. Being ganked is when a team roams together and when they could be fighting flour opponents they all chose one and fight only one enemy at a time, causing that enemy to stagger and be killed in a way they can't defend. If you are alone against a team you should die, people are so out of control to think them having fun and getting a monster boost to compete against the four opponents who out played their team is some how reasonable. Yeah those guys deserve to have a severe disadvantage and I deserve to have a giant boost so I can win! Who cares if they are having fun, who cares if this is fair for them, who cares if this is in any way reasonable, I deserve to have fun and f*ck what anyone else thinks! This game is supposed to be made for me to have fun, for me to win, for me to get all the advantages, and for anyone else to have to bow out my feet because ME ME MMMEEE!!!


Lol me monsters are funny, and I love laughing at them. I feel like people begging for revenge to be back in the stupid, gear stacked state of season one, those are the same people that hero hop to the OP player of the patch. People who suggest reasonable fixes or slight changes to revenge, this is not directed at you. I think there needs to be big changes with AOE and one shot kill feats, with the death all mentality of f*ckboys, and with the lame gains that are given by refining gear. I like the idea of extending the window of revenge parries to apply to any attacks initiated during a successful parry. I am not sure I think all unblobkables should just be blocked if you are in revenge, I do think changes could be beneficial.

But you me monsters, please keep getting upset and quitting the game because you don't know how to work as a team or win in any way that is fair, somehow you deserve extra boosts right? Forget anyone else, this game was made for you!!!

Calls ganking in a deathball, “strategic movement”, feels better about self proclaimed “superior battlefield presence”. XD

Tirik22x
03-04-2018, 02:17 PM
But yea, all they have to do to make revenge balanced again is allow it to block unblockables.

Problem solved.

Devils-_-legacy
03-04-2018, 05:31 PM
If they revert revenge to an instant win button again I'm out and I'm a lone player that never groups revenge used to be op now it just let's you create some breathing room being able to gb through attack is helpful for getting away

mrmistark
03-04-2018, 05:43 PM
But yea, all they have to do to make revenge balanced again is allow it to block unblockables.

Problem solved.

You know, I really wouldn’t MINDDD this, but they would definitely have to take away the offensiven buffs revenge adds. It’d honestly be too much and as a said previously, it has nothing to do with what revenges sole purpose in game is. It’s not supposed to be a gank buster. It’s supposed to be a tool used to run away and regroup, or help hold a position until help comes. While I do agree that something needs to happen with UB vs revenge mode and your solution would certainly help, that’s giving too much power while the attack based buffs are still prevalent. Honestly the shield just needs to be better IMO. You shouldn’t be able to get 2-3 shotted out of your whole armor bar, even IF you’re an assassin. This game also has too many variables that make revenge more of a joke than before. You have all the feats which is a HUGE one, on map buffs, ect. That really dumb the idea of armor on revenge down.

I wouldn’t mind your idea but if we were to go this route there would need to be a balance:

- take away attack buff and uninterruptible
- take away free max punish on knockdown
- give large debuff resistance
- give better shield in general
- immunity to CC stagger
- block UB attacks

Netcode_err_404
03-04-2018, 05:55 PM
No revenge will make you easy win 4vs1, when you see these ctr c + ctrl v montage from these youtubers, is just enemy team beeing completely trash.

A trash player will get destroyed by a single dude without revenge

A trash team will get destroyed by a single guy with revenge.


Besides, revenge is completely useless, and was useless even back in the d1, all you have to do was turtling, untill revenge is off, and then EZ ganking.

But people used to whine, because they had to trade hit with a full buffed revenge dude, and lost. Lets just keep "balancing" this game for newcomers.infact all you have to do now is spamming UB's from 3 directions to completely destroy every one, regarding his ability with the game, which is indeed limited, the lack of deepth in this game, makes the skill ceiling, really low. You can easily master a class playing it for a dozen of hours.

Waynedetta40k
03-04-2018, 08:43 PM
Because a good team can beat a deathball. In elimination and skirmish if they realise it is going on they can form up themselves, not played tribute enough to speak much on it but there are three tributes, unfortunately I have wound up on teams where they won't wait ten seconds, rather treat the enemy team to endless 4v1 and health gains through executions, dominion though yeah it is doable. If it gets rolling, then it relies on one or two standing their ground a short while, but say they are at c fighting two, one respawning ally goes to the soldier zone in b, one goes to a, they boost or kill soldiers until the deathball comes rolling, one of them moves to vacated c while the other tries to escape with the headstart granted by them taking his zone, by this point we're hoping it is back to 4v4 because then the fact that we hold two zones means either they need to split up or they will constantly be down two as a zone or soldier lane is abandoned in order to rotate zone captures, drawing out any time they take to get one person and watching the points gap widen. The other option is if you meet three or four in their zone, play completely passively, as conqueror, I used health on block and parries, as peacekeeper I used my dodges, my best result came as a peacekeeper where I held three in their only white zone for a minute and a half, in that timemy teammates boosted the other zone and killed soldiers, I took the death but in that time we had achieved a 500 point swing and had an unassailable lead because they decided to murderball the peacekeeper and didn't keep their eye on the actual aim of dominion. Now I was lucky to get a good team in that, I am a PUG player though when servers come for console and are polished I may join groups on the knights discord, but it happens now and then.

So your answers to my questions:
What kind of Teamplay does For Honor offer except Deathballganking? and
Why do people give much about teamplay?

is basicially: The other Team can Deathball too and
1 or 2 People can stall a Deathball.

Seems like decent and fun gameplay.

Additionally if you can stall 3 people with PK for 90 Seconds those 3 People's skill as individual players is WAY below yours and therefore its nothing to do with teamplay. 3 Competent players will wreck you in seconds.


No revenge will make you easy win 4vs1, when you see these ctr c + ctrl v montage from these youtubers, is just enemy team beeing completely trash.

A trash player will get destroyed by a single dude without revenge

A trash team will get destroyed by a single guy with revenge.


Besides, revenge is completely useless, and was useless even back in the d1, all you have to do was turtling, untill revenge is off, and then EZ ganking.

But people used to whine, because they had to trade hit with a full buffed revenge dude, and lost. Lets just keep "balancing" this game for newcomers.infact all you have to do now is spamming UB's from 3 directions to completely destroy every one, regarding his ability with the game, which is indeed limited, the lack of deepth in this game, makes the skill ceiling, really low. You can easily master a class playing it for a dozen of hours.

Well to be honest, it was a mix of everything. With Gearstats, Revenge, Feats a PK killed me playing shugoki at 70% HP with a light + zone. GG

But yea imo they overnerfed revenge alot

CandleInTheDark
03-04-2018, 09:12 PM
So your answers to my questions:
What kind of Teamplay does For Honor offer except Deathballganking? and
Why do people give much about teamplay?

is basicially: The other Team can Deathball too and
1 or 2 People can stall a Deathball.

Seems like decent and fun gameplay.

Additionally if you can stall 3 people with PK for 90 Seconds those 3 People's skill as individual players is WAY below yours and therefore its nothing to do with teamplay. 3 Competent players will wreck you in seconds.

A skirmish is a rolling 4v4 in any case, as to elimination, if they have done it once, you are foolish to try to take them on by yourself, your team either stops them forming into a group in the initial phase or adapts.

As to dominion, it is a touch more nuanced than that,stalling the death ball only does any good if the team then maintains control over two points, the opposing team is then forced to either play the objective or to try to capture two points quicker than a more spread out team can reclaim the one they have left bearing in mind if they kill one person, they have at most 15 seconds they are one up while the other three can still ensure that at least two points belong to them. They did dominion in the season 4 launch stream and because the teams communicated, a death ball would not have worked because the other team would have simply rotated the points because even if they caught and killed one, if they are moving as a group, the moment they leave that point to take the next it will be reclaimed. All of that takes communication,knowing where your team mates are and where they see the enemy, dare I say it, teamwork.

As to the 1v3, eh your opinion, once they did corner me, they did indeed wreck me, but I was backdodging and managing to parry when one got close enough and pop revenge when it came up given I have a minimum build loadout. The team play came more in that my team handled the other points while I stalled the three on mine and their lack of minding the objective, and so poorer team play, lost them the game. Dominion could do with changing some tomake death balling less profitable but it can be worked around.

SEISMIS21
03-06-2018, 01:43 AM
Calls ganking in a deathball, “strategic movement”, feels better about self proclaimed “superior battlefield presence”. XD

No wonder you have sand in your ******, you think the only form of strategic movement in this game is deathball ganking (which I clearly called out as cancerous twattery by the way.)

You must be one of those me monsters I was talking about.

Waynedetta40k
03-06-2018, 10:56 AM
......

You still dont get my point. Deathballing is unfun and lame and shouldnt be a viable tactic at all. It is way easier to Deathball than anything else and make it an efficient tactic compared to everything else the game offers regarding teamplay. Is it impossible to counter? No I never said it. The effort it takes to deathball and win vs the effort it takes to counter it is just wrong.
Improvments need to be made.