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King_Warden.
02-28-2018, 07:28 AM
This is on console FYI (PS4):
It seems unless youíre using the reworked characters youíre at a big disadvantage.

Funny enough, you give conq all these new moves, yet they still do shield bash > light, maybe a shield bash > light > heavy feint >shield bash. However, itís the same thing. And no, I donít play with noobs. Iím talking about rank 40+ conqs, Iíve never, ever, ever fought a conq who didnít spam it. Which Iím not angry about, if it ainít broke donít fix it, right? You guys didnít address the main problem, itís easy to do. And donít get me started on the zone. Thatís just free dmg. A pk is about to zone? You zone and block it. A warden is doing a top heavy? Zone. Conq zones? Zone. Why give it full block?

Kensei? Here, soft feint every attack you have. Oh, and take this hyper armor on every attack. Donít forget that you get a free light if you land a heavy!

Berserker? Zone. Zone. Feint > zone. Dodge away and regain stam because youíre an assassin and you can dodge 10 miles away within a second even if you have no stamina. Repeat.
(Seriously? You add a system so players canít run away in duels, which was targeted for assassins, though it only affects people who arenít assassin...)

And would you mind having a look at tracking the ****ing warden charged shoulder bash? Why does it have hyper armor if Iím going to miss it anyway? If you do a charged bash against someone who does a side dash attack, youíll just spin around them and tank the hit, which also gives them a free gb. Doesnít make any sense.
Warden canít even side light; then to add insult to injury, you give a ****ING POMMEL STRIKE to a kensei? Iíve never once heard of a samurai using a tactic like that.
Warden is now just a turtle now, and that was the whole point of the changes and test servers from season 3 or 4, right? To make it so waiting for parries isnít as effective? But then you cause a character to have to rely on parrying.
And if you lose because of a shoulder bash spam, that tells you where your skill tier lies with him. Low. Very low.

Having trouble beating warden? Hereís a tip.
Hold your guard to the left to block zones, parry right side lights, and just move up to block top lights. If warden dodges to bash, just guard break, because thatís a thing you can do. Just gb him out of it. Look at that, youíve effectively cucked a warden! What should warden do?
- Feint an attack? Oh yeah, people definitely fall for that, not.
- Shoulder bash? How? If you dodge they gb you out of the bash.
Charge it? Refer to last sentence.
- Top light? They block your top.
- Side light? They parry your side lights because theyíre as fast as a warlordís heavy.
Whiff a light into your bash? Canít do that. Youíre far enough where letting it go or gb will miss.
- Whiff then charge? Nope. Remember how youíre too far away to hit without charging? Good players know this and will just dodge backwards for the free gb.
- Zone? Theyíre guard is to the left.
Feint then zone? Yeah, might work. But you just wasted all of your stamina. Great job. Your trade was 20 dmg for all of your stamina.

Tl;Dr
Why does a samurai have a pommel strike before a knight?
Berserker = too much hyper armor for an assassin.
Assassins can still doge away, fix the running away system.
Warden = turtle till you die and hope your opponent doesnít understand they can take two steps back and itíll always miss.

Sauronbaine
02-28-2018, 08:03 AM
Alright, seems your biggest complain is Warden vs the reworked heroes.

Well, Warden has always been a low A high B tier hero since his nerf to SB. And yes he IS a turtle but thats just cause he lacks openers.


And you forget something. They are going to rework him in due time. You just need to be patient. Im actually 95% positive hes receiving the next rework for the knights. You just need to be patient.

SpaceJim12
02-28-2018, 08:54 AM
Warden now is real useless, yeah. He still my favorite hero, but I see many time I just can't do something to high skill players. Feints don't work it all, cause Warden's light attacks are too slow, so after feint everybody could block it.

And for sure Ubesoft accept wrong course of reworks. Why all that hyper armor? It is proper things for chars like Highlander and Shugoki, cause their attacks are very slow, so they need that armor to land it, but, come on, Kensei and Bers?! Made their light even faster and now they have all that hyper armor and just spam, spam, spam.
Played against a lot of Berserkers after rework (in any game you could see 1 or 2 now) and all of them do only one same thing spam zone, than feint light into top unblockable, that you ready to parry or doged. But they feint it too and spam zone again.
And what you realy expect from future reworks after this? More hyper armor for other heroes? So fights will become to a spaming of attacks, where only metter will be whos damage rate higher.

CandleInTheDark
02-28-2018, 09:13 AM
Warden now is real useless, yeah. He still my favorite hero, but I see many time I just can't do something to high skill players. Feints don't work it all, cause Warden's light attacks are too slow, so after feint everybody could block it.

And for sure Ubesoft accept wrong course of reworks. Why all that hyper armor? It is proper things for chars like Highlander and Shugoki, cause their attacks are very slow, so they need that armor to land it, but, come on, Kensei and Bers?! Made their light even faster and now they have all that hyper armor and just spam, spam, spam.
Played against a lot of Berserkers after rework (in any game you could see 1 or 2 now) and all of them do only one same thing spam zone, than feint light into top unblockable, that you ready to parry or doged. But they feint it too and spam zone again.
And what you realy expect from future reworks after this? More hyper armor for other heroes? So fights will become to a spaming of attacks, where only metter will be whos damage rate higher.

As I said the last time this came up,Kensei has always had hyperarmour, why is it only coming up now he isn't bottom tier? Hey I have no hat in the ring on this, I have one rep on Kensei and there are at least 16 reps worth of stuff I want to do before I touch him again and even then he is competing with others I have half way to 7, I just find it funny that either no one knew Kensei had hyperarmour because they trashed anyone using him or they are only choosing now to complain now he isn't as much of an easy target.

Sauronbaine
02-28-2018, 09:31 AM
My only complaint with Kense is that im bad at reading his movements so I dont know if im seeing a side light or a heavy coming from a feint. hahaha.

SpaceJim12
02-28-2018, 11:34 AM
I said mostly about Berserkers. You right, I don't know much about movments of Kensei. But never see them easy targets. All high rep Kensei just spam cancel attack button as hell. But past times they should cancel attack to feint it, so you can react.
For now they soft feint it with light speed. And that side heavy from dodge, that blocked 50% times...
Let's say most clear - rework Ubisoft style have nothing in common with balance. Bers became OP as mush as Shaman. Conq just take some more annoying moves and Kensei for me now feels like broken.

Hormly
02-28-2018, 06:00 PM
The nerfs to conq are incoming.

The devs always go overboard. I think the conq is just a slight nerf away from being in a good place.

Tweek the zone, and make the shield bash punishable. As a warlord i feel helpless, he bashes, i dodge.... and with such a slow dodge and no dodge attack, all i can do is wait for him to do it again. Cant attack cause hell full block and ill eat a heavy.

All i can do is dodge shield bashes, and chip him down with headbutts

Vakris_One
02-28-2018, 06:24 PM
There's so much learn 2 play in this thread it's not even funny.

Vakris_One
02-28-2018, 07:01 PM
Warden should definitely get a rework soon but he is by no means an easy kill if played well by someone who knows what they're doing. Exhibit A:


https://youtu.be/VIWtfEhQs7M

Kensei does not get hyper armour on every attack nor does he get a free light after every heavy by the way. It's like some people never met a Kensei until Season 5. The only hyper armour they gave him is on his light finishers. His side heavy finishers have always had hyper armour. His pommel strike can be interrupted by a light attack as soon as you see him prepare that slow a$$ top heavy, at best he can cancel it to block you but not enough time to parry. Smart Kensei will start canceling into swift strike to try and play some mind games.

RenegadeTX2000
02-28-2018, 07:46 PM
http://www.perpetuum.hr/sites/default/files/uploads/blog/slike/2017-05/2016-miran-san-uz-dobar-sam.jpg

I've been reading so much conqueror complaints recently, competitive reddit, youtube, facebook, this page, top players, streamers... keep 'em coming'

DKDridin
02-28-2018, 07:59 PM
Let's not forget to mention that matchmaking is still crap. It constantly pits inexperienced teams against experienced ones so that is a complete and total shut out and completely unenjoyable for the losing team.

And the constant disconnects and errors.

And the massive frame rate drops on console.

And it's the only game I've ever played where I've had to worry about my NAT type in order to play the game.

And the server is so bad that sometimes it takes a full two seconds for me to change my guard from one side to the other.

It's almost like this is a badly made indie game that is marketed as a triple a title.

CandleInTheDark
02-28-2018, 08:09 PM
It's like some people never met a Kensei until Season 5.

That is what I have been wondering lol since it was perfectly fine when Kensei was bottom tier and suddenly now it is a problem.

Sauronbaine
02-28-2018, 10:22 PM
The nerfs to conq are incoming.

The devs always go overboard. I think the conq is just a slight nerf away from being in a good place.

Tweek the zone, and make the shield bash punishable. As a warlord i feel helpless, he bashes, i dodge.... and with such a slow dodge and no dodge attack, all i can do is wait for him to do it again. Cant attack cause hell full block and ill eat a heavy.

All i can do is dodge shield bashes, and chip him down with headbutts

You can punish the shield bashes with a guardbreak if you dodge correctly.

Devils-_-legacy
02-28-2018, 10:39 PM
When I play conq I light after shield bash it normally counters the gb punish the only thing that seems to counter is a dodge attack

The_B0G_
02-28-2018, 10:40 PM
You can punish the shield bashes with a guardbreak if you dodge correctly.

You said this in another thread about conq to me, unless we're talking about neutral shield bashes, you can't punished his heavy feint shield bash, he recovers too quickly, I agree with Hormly on this one. Neutral shield bash is definitely punishable, feinted heavy shield bash should be the same.

Sauronbaine
02-28-2018, 10:51 PM
You said this in another thread about conq to me, unless we're talking about neutral shield bashes, you can't punished his heavy feint shield bash, he recovers too quickly, I agree with Hormly on this one. Neutral shield bash is definitely punishable, feinted heavy shield bash should be the same.

He said shield bash. Im going to assume neutral.

As for heavy shield bash, you actually can throw out a light and stop him if he starts it because its such a long attack. Well depending on the light I suppose.

Again I play on PC where the framerates are better. Console is different.

Problem is, its punishable on a dash attack, and making THAT easy to ddoge attack punishable... they might have to buff it and make it faster.


Edit: Its punishable with a GB DEPENDING on who you play.

Centurion cant punish with a GB but other characters can back dodge. Im guessing certain characters have better dodge recoveries?

Protos_88
02-28-2018, 11:04 PM
as warden I have problem with all dodge class.. so many free punish, and creazy higlander with armor and free gb.. I try to hit and get punish.. so gg. this rebalance is stupit.

Sauronbaine
02-28-2018, 11:16 PM
as warden I have problem with all dodge class.. so many free punish, and creazy higlander with armor and free gb.. I try to hit and get punish.. so gg. this rebalance is stupit.

Lmao. Warden is Low a high B. He's not terrible.

Burn-The-Sinner
02-28-2018, 11:37 PM
The amount of effort you must into warden to beat just about anyone is extreme. While there is no effort at all required for the new heroes. They are a breeze.

Protos_88
03-01-2018, 12:12 AM
rly???pick warden and go.play vs berzerker, shaman, gladiator. then we talk agian

Vakris_One
03-01-2018, 12:43 AM
That is what I have been wondering lol since it was perfectly fine when Kensei was bottom tier and suddenly now it is a problem.
Oh it was perfectly fine before for some because they almost couldn't lose to a Kensei. NOW though... now it is a problem because suddenly you actually have to be the better player in order to beat a Kensei. Some folks find a problem with being the better player and so they come to forum to beg for nerfs.

SwellChemosabe
03-01-2018, 01:13 AM
Soooo a couple of things

first and foremost, as someone who has the reading ability of a 3rd grader, in the future when you write a post it might help to space out your points, just one or two spaces, and keep them relevant to one another. by that i mean, if you're going to talk about kensei, try keeping all of your points about him in one place. I'm not trying to be an *******, i promise. the post was just really hard for me to read and keep up with.

getting back on topic: there are a couple of issues i have with your post. the biggest thing taking form of the phrase "perfect practice makes perfect". my friends and i had trouble getting used to the reworks so we loaded up a custom match and experimented. we looked for things that we could do, couldn't do, things we that might or might not work in the event of this or that. it helped, even if only a little, and we immediately saw some semblance of improvement. i recommend this highly as a way to improve your gameplay against these characters.

i mained berserker for a good long while and the reworks were much appreciated. i mean, having my 55 damage from the top heavy was pretty nice but in exchange for three unblockables and a better feint game, ontop of more skill oriented deflect rewards (as opposed to it being automatic and not always the desired move) was definitely a good trade in my opinion. Berserker is a harasser, he's built to get in your space and play mind games with you. That's just his core design. i've found that the best defense against any zerker is wait for them to show their cards

unlike vanguards, hybrids and heavies, assassins have a wide range of combination attacks to which they can mix and match in a multitude of ways. The only thing you need to know is which one a particular player prefers. some players, if not most, don't have the ability to remember every single combination and potential mix ups for those combinations, especially in the heat of the moment. most times, that i've noticed anyway, they will stick to the same set of moves because, as you said "if it works, why fix it?" An assassin will use the most effective means of killing you, repeatedly, if you let them. Take the time to learn the moves they use the most as it is most likely their go-to strategy for starting and continuing a fight. when you beat them, take note of what they change. doing this will allow you to better counter their attacks and anticipate the next set of changes.

for example (pre-parry changes): for the longest time one of my favorite moves as a zerker was my bait and switch; throw a light just out of range for the target and begin the top heavy finisher. most times they would fall for it and i would get a free hit that cost them a third of their health. if that didn't work, i'd feint it into a side light. if they didn't fall for that, or even parried it, i'd try throwing lights in either direction and follow up, again, with the top heavy. the pattern there being that i'd finish each combo with a top heavy finisher or feint it into some kind of light attack. something that always did get the best of me however, and the ultimate bane of my existence as an assassin, is that i often times favored one side when it came to feinting attacks, and the enemy could see that. this often resulted in a parry and guard break punish.

It's only difficult to fight a berserker if you don't learn to read your opponents favored moves.

As far as warden is concerned, i only picked him up at the start of season five. but i can tell you right now he's not useless. just because he no longer has his shoulder bash spam doesn't mean he's low tear, and i've already beaten players with him even when they were using their rep 40 and above heroes. of course, it helps that i've been playing since the beta and i know every heroes moves and their mix up potential. Warden is a great duelist and even better in ganks.

To sum up, you basically just need to practice more. I'm not saying you're a bad player for thinking the reworks have made certain heroes op, but it does suggest you haven't taken the time to really learn them. get in a custom match and learn it and i'm sure you'll be much better off.

The_B0G_
03-01-2018, 01:24 AM
He said shield bash. Im going to assume neutral.

As for heavy shield bash, you actually can throw out a light and stop him if he starts it because its such a long attack. Well depending on the light I suppose.

Again I play on PC where the framerates are better. Console is different.

Problem is, its punishable on a dash attack, and making THAT easy to ddoge attack punishable... they might have to buff it and make it faster.


Edit: Its punishable with a GB DEPENDING on who you play.

Centurion cant punish with a GB but other characters can back dodge. Im guessing certain characters have better dodge recoveries?

Yeah I assumed it had something to do with dodge recoveries of certain characters. You can probably get a punish with quick dodge attacks, but that leaves almost every non assassin hero without a punish.

Its only really an issue if they have shield damage perk on, if it didn't do so much damage it wouldn't bother me so much. It just feels too safe risk vs reward.

Sauronbaine
03-01-2018, 02:55 AM
Yeah I assumed it had something to do with dodge recoveries of certain characters. You can probably get a punish with quick dodge attacks, but that leaves almost every non assassin hero without a punish.

Its only really an issue if they have shield damage perk on, if it didn't do so much damage it wouldn't bother me so much. It just feels too safe risk vs reward.

Ive done it without playing assassins so I actually think each character has seperate dodge recoveries or something like that.

I need more testing, but I cant do it on a centurion but I can do it on others.

CandleInTheDark
03-01-2018, 03:23 AM
Ive done it without playing assassins so I actually think each character has seperate dodge recoveries or something like that.

I need more testing, but I cant do it on a centurion but I can do it on others.

The devs said a while ago that separate dodge properties (distance, speed, deflect) and recoveries are deliberate parts of each heroes kit.

Sauronbaine
03-01-2018, 03:32 AM
The devs said a while ago that separate dodge properties (distance, speed, deflect) and recoveries are deliberate parts of each heroes kit.

So I am right. Its character dependant on punishing the shield bash.


Actually some characters can punish certain things while others cant.

King_Warden.
03-02-2018, 08:42 AM
I donít remember saying heís useless, rather it doesnít make sense that they claim heís not supposed to be a character you stick, but rather just to teach you the basics. However, itís just redundant as he only teaches you to turtle now and spam your quickest attack. As Iíve said, Iíve used warden since basically release and that attitude of ď heís not useless, he has great mix up potentialĒ, will wear thin, A character with only three combos doesnít have ďgreatĒ mix up potential. Light heavy. Heavy heavy. Light into shoulderbash of instant death as it doesnít work against people who know what theyíre doing.

Hereís another link that states what I said of warden in a more articulated manner: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/7n8mbl/warden_guide_and_why_its_dtier/

King_Warden.
03-02-2018, 08:57 AM
As I said the last time this came up,Kensei has always had hyperarmour, why is it only coming up now he isn't bottom tier? Hey I have no hat in the ring on this, I have one rep on Kensei and there are at least 16 reps worth of stuff I want to do before I touch him again and even then he is competing with others I have half way to 7, I just find it funny that either no one knew Kensei had hyperarmour because they trashed anyone using him or they are only choosing now to complain now he isn't as much of an easy target.
Because before, Kensei required dedication and skill to become decent. People understood that if a Kensei beat them, it wasnít because of cheap gimmicks. Now heís just another shaman, any new player can pick up and win with.

Sauronbaine
03-02-2018, 09:09 AM
Because before, Kensei required dedication and skill to become decent. People understood that if a Kensei beat them, it wasn’t because of cheap gimmicks. Now he’s just another shaman, any new player can pick up and win with.

Not even CLOSE to what Shaman is. Every part of Kensei is counterable and easy to do so. You just refuse to learn to do it.

Once you learn what he can do with his top heavy, you'll see he's not that good. Dodge the pulled, he might throw out that light and you get a free parry or he'll just whiff and you can move from there.

Oh he feinted it, well see what he does. Look at his movement and predict the light or the side heavy. most likely a light.

guor6800
03-02-2018, 11:12 AM
Because before, Kensei required dedication and skill to become decent. People understood that if a Kensei beat them, it wasnít because of cheap gimmicks. Now heís just another shaman, any new player can pick up and win with.
Just imagine now those dedicated players have tools and stuff on their hands. I have seen a lot of new kenseis just spamming dodge attacks into light finishers. Cheesy but one trick pony. Just parry his dodge attack and keep him under pressure so he can't engage in his mindplays. A good kensei hardly ever engages with a dodge attack head on. It's suicide most of the time.

@devs as a kensei main from the betas I believe HA on light finishers are a bit over the top. They are fast enough to get through I dont think armor is needed imho. Other than that great rework for papa kensei.

micisonit
03-02-2018, 06:01 PM
Zerk was and is still very hard to master since its all about his faintgame ! all you can do is faint, faint and faint ! there is no other Hero that has to do this ! all ppl be saying all he does is light spam what is not true ! he is heavy fainting in to a light , thats something diverent ! i keep telling my friends go play zerk and see for youre self thst mastering the faintgame is nothing for noobs ! but if you all want to complain about the cheese in for honor you have to complain over all heros ! they all have cheese

King_Warden.
03-05-2018, 11:45 PM
Whats warden’s cheese? We’ve already discussed that SB is beat by dodging back once.