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View Full Version : Should Kensei our trade bezerker



Mirage6201
02-25-2018, 08:30 PM
Usually u can go light into over head heavy and out trade a kensei. However they can get their side dodge attack into a hyper armor top attack. Was this intended.

Whatís the point of hyper armor on bzkr if everyone has it. Isnít that why kensei has unblockable now.

SphericalChip53
02-25-2018, 08:36 PM
Usually u can go light into over head heavy and out trade a kensei. However they can get their side dodge attack into a hyper armor top attack. Was this intended.

Whatís the point of hyper armor on bzkr if everyone has it. Isnít that why kensei has unblockable now.

Kensei doesn't get hyperarmor on the unblockable top heavy finisher, only hyperarmor if it's a side heavy.

Mirage6201
02-25-2018, 08:44 PM
I would wiff light and he would dodge and attack. he landed side attack into a top attack. Iím 99% sure he went right through my top unblockable with a top heavy/light like he had hyper armor. Did it to me like 3 times.

Trenk2009
02-25-2018, 09:35 PM
Indeed, in his actual state, a Kensei out trades a berserker with ease, by dodging your first attack he lands a side dodged attack for 20 damage and by goign into his side heavy finisher he trades a blow with you for 35 damage. This means that, overall, berserker trading with a kensei results in him dealing 35 damage against a kensei dealing 55 damage.

In the beginning, the berserker kit was thought as the "unstopable" one. What this meant was that, a well played berserker needed to get parried to be stopped, cuz if you tried to play agressively and trade with the berserker or if you tried to dodge, the zerk would either out damage you by far, or use is kit to keep harassing you, nullifying the use of your dodges.
So, that particular kit was countered either by parrying or by using crow control moves.

However, since the rework and the incredibly stupid top heavy damage nerf, the berserker basically lost 90% his trading potentiel as well as the large majority of his bait mind games. It is now required to play him more like a basic hero with strong feints, which is and incredibly boring new play style.

I would like to thanks the devs, for that beautiful rework. Nerfing from 55 to 45 ? Yup seems legit. Nerfing from 55 to 40 ? Mmmh, maybe a bit to much but would still be somewhat understandble. Nerfing from 55 to 30 ? No. Just no. No one is scared by the top heavy anymore. It deals nothing. Do you know why Raider mix up is strong ? Cuz his zone is scary. 50 damage is scary, when we see it coming, we KNOW that we can't afford to take it, especially when we are stunned. Freaking stupid devs....

Mirage6201
02-25-2018, 10:52 PM
Thank you for verifying it.


Indeed, in his actual state, a Kensei out trades a berserker with ease, by dodging your first attack he lands a side dodged attack for 20 damage and by goign into his side heavy finisher he trades a blow with you for 35 damage. This means that, overall, berserker trading with a kensei results in him dealing 35 damage against a kensei dealing 55 damage.

In the beginning, the berserker kit was thought as the "unstopable" one. What this meant was that, a well played berserker needed to get parried to be stopped, cuz if you tried to play agressively and trade with the berserker or if you tried to dodge, the zerk would either out damage you by far, or use is kit to keep harassing you, nullifying the use of your dodges.
So, that particular kit was countered either by parrying or by using crow control moves.

However, since the rework and the incredibly stupid top heavy damage nerf, the berserker basically lost 90% his trading potentiel as well as the large majority of his bait mind games. It is now required to play him more like a basic hero with strong feints, which is and incredibly boring new play style.

I would like to thanks the devs, for that beautiful rework. Nerfing from 55 to 45 ? Yup seems legit. Nerfing from 55 to 40 ? Mmmh, maybe a bit to much but would still be somewhat understandble. Nerfing from 55 to 30 ? No. Just no. No one is scared by the top heavy anymore. It deals nothing. Do you know why Raider mix up is strong ? Cuz his zone is scary. 50 damage is scary, when we see it coming, we KNOW that we can't afford to take it, especially when we are stunned. Freaking stupid devs....

Titanodragon
02-25-2018, 11:12 PM
I still don't understand why kensei needs hyper armor. I'm glad they had that out like candy now...

lMoosel
02-25-2018, 11:18 PM
Since zerks and assassin he really shouldnít be out trading anyone. Itís not an assains role. He hit like a truck for the entire first year and now heís finally been tuned down. The game completely caters to assassins so Iím sure he will be fine. Heís 10x better than he was before the rework, just now he has
To be played like an assassin.

Mirage6201
02-26-2018, 01:14 AM
But should Kensei have hyper armor....?


Since zerks and assassin he really shouldnít be out trading anyone. Itís not an assains role. He hit like a truck for the entire first year and now heís finally been tuned down. The game completely caters to assassins so Iím sure he will be fine. Heís 10x better than he was before the rework, just now he has
To be played like an assassin.

High-Horse
02-26-2018, 02:15 AM
I still don't understand why kensei needs hyper armor. I'm glad they had that out like candy now...
Th only new HA Kensei got was the light finishers. Side heavy finishers always had HA.

Zerker could constantly chain HA attacks before and now they can do the same with attacks after a feint. Zerker might not be able to win that top heavy trade in terms of damage anymore, but they can still keep trucking out HA attacks until they run out of steam. They're less bursty now, that's Kensei's job, but they get a stronger feint game with HA there to support constantly attacking rather than to land one huge hit.

Zerker just needs more stam support. Cheaper feints, stam reduction cost on attacks within chains, maybe faster regen.

Vakris_One
02-26-2018, 03:18 AM
But should Kensei have hyper armor....?
He only got hyper armour on his light finishers. He's always had hyper armour on his side heavy finishers. He needs HA on his side heavy finishers because they are the core part of his mixup game. Without HA on them he'll just get disrupted out of them every single time because they are quite slow, without HA they would be perfectly useless.

The reason they gave his light finishers HA is to strengthen his mixup game and it aldo gives him more options when he's being ganked.

CandleInTheDark
02-26-2018, 03:59 AM
I still don't understand why kensei needs hyper armor. I'm glad they had that out like candy now...


But should Kensei have hyper armor....?

He has had hyper armour for the last year, why is this only a thing now?

guor6800
02-26-2018, 08:22 AM
Indeed, in his actual state, a Kensei out trades a berserker with ease, by dodging your first attack he lands a side dodged attack for 20 damage and by goign into his side heavy finisher he trades a blow with you for 35 damage. This means that, overall, berserker trading with a kensei results in him dealing 35 damage against a kensei dealing 55 damage.

In the beginning, the berserker kit was thought as the "unstopable" one. What this meant was that, a well played berserker needed to get parried to be stopped, cuz if you tried to play agressively and trade with the berserker or if you tried to dodge, the zerk would either out damage you by far, or use is kit to keep harassing you, nullifying the use of your dodges.
So, that particular kit was countered either by parrying or by using crow control moves.

However, since the rework and the incredibly stupid top heavy damage nerf, the berserker basically lost 90% his trading potentiel as well as the large majority of his bait mind games. It is now required to play him more like a basic hero with strong feints, which is and incredibly boring new play style.

I would like to thanks the devs, for that beautiful rework. Nerfing from 55 to 45 ? Yup seems legit. Nerfing from 55 to 40 ? Mmmh, maybe a bit to much but would still be somewhat understandble. Nerfing from 55 to 30 ? No. Just no. No one is scared by the top heavy anymore. It deals nothing. Do you know why Raider mix up is strong ? Cuz his zone is scary. 50 damage is scary, when we see it coming, we KNOW that we can't afford to take it, especially when we are stunned. Freaking stupid devs....

Get where you coming from and I agree with you but...

You considered a situation where kensei mindgame outrades berzekers. After rework zerker has HA from his first hit. I mean you can outtrade the kensei before even reach the situation you described.

All in all berz needs better stamina management. As for kensei HA on light finishers is a bit over the top imo but nothing extraordinary. He has exactly the same HA he had before the rework only in different parts of his kit.

Knight_Raime
02-26-2018, 11:37 AM
Indeed, in his actual state, a Kensei out trades a berserker with ease, by dodging your first attack he lands a side dodged attack for 20 damage and by goign into his side heavy finisher he trades a blow with you for 35 damage. This means that, overall, berserker trading with a kensei results in him dealing 35 damage against a kensei dealing 55 damage.

In the beginning, the berserker kit was thought as the "unstopable" one. What this meant was that, a well played berserker needed to get parried to be stopped, cuz if you tried to play agressively and trade with the berserker or if you tried to dodge, the zerk would either out damage you by far, or use is kit to keep harassing you, nullifying the use of your dodges.
So, that particular kit was countered either by parrying or by using crow control moves.

However, since the rework and the incredibly stupid top heavy damage nerf, the berserker basically lost 90% his trading potentiel as well as the large majority of his bait mind games. It is now required to play him more like a basic hero with strong feints, which is and incredibly boring new play style.

I would like to thanks the devs, for that beautiful rework. Nerfing from 55 to 45 ? Yup seems legit. Nerfing from 55 to 40 ? Mmmh, maybe a bit to much but would still be somewhat understandble. Nerfing from 55 to 30 ? No. Just no. No one is scared by the top heavy anymore. It deals nothing. Do you know why Raider mix up is strong ? Cuz his zone is scary. 50 damage is scary, when we see it coming, we KNOW that we can't afford to take it, especially when we are stunned. Freaking stupid devs....

It's not really a trade of 55 damage when that dodge attack wasn't apart of the trade. In the actual reality it was a trade of 30 to 35 (assuming the traded hit on zerk was top heavy finisher.)
Kensei got more damage in your scenario because he out played berzerker. Not because kensei is better at trading.

Zerker can have HA for a long time on any move he throws out providing you combo and feint right. that means he's got more opportunities to trade. zerk can just eat that side dodge and trade for bigger damage if you go further in the combo. as that side heavy from kensei is a finisher. no follow up. Zerk provided the kensei can't keep up with the speed will eat more in the long run.

I do agree that top heavy finisher should be brought up some. But I don't agree that kensei is better at trading.

Knight_Raime
02-26-2018, 11:42 AM
Usually u can go light into over head heavy and out trade a kensei. However they can get their side dodge attack into a hyper armor top attack. Was this intended.

Whatís the point of hyper armor on bzkr if everyone has it. Isnít that why kensei has unblockable now.

Going for top heavy finisher as your main trading tool is berzerkers older style and it's no wonder why you're having an issue. That style was nerfed for a reason.
You have obscene amounts of HA now. enough to have HA on every attack for 4-5 seconds providing you're actually comboing and feinting properly.
They made his chains better in multiple ways with the update to incentivise you to go further into your combos.

Kensei has always had HA on his side heavies. the only new HA he got was on light finishers. Which are hardly ever worth trading for anyway.
really the only time you should be going for top unblockable finisher is on a hyper turtle or if you're trying to land a killing blow.
zerk's new game is about feinting a lot and trying to go further into your combos.

SEISMIS21
02-27-2018, 01:26 AM
Indeed, in his actual state, a Kensei out trades a berserker with ease, by dodging your first attack he lands a side dodged attack for 20 damage and by goign into his side heavy finisher he trades a blow with you for 35 damage. This means that, overall, berserker trading with a kensei results in him dealing 35 damage against a kensei dealing 55 damage.

In the beginning, the berserker kit was thought as the "unstopable" one. What this meant was that, a well played berserker needed to get parried to be stopped, cuz if you tried to play agressively and trade with the berserker or if you tried to dodge, the zerk would either out damage you by far, or use is kit to keep harassing you, nullifying the use of your dodges.
So, that particular kit was countered either by parrying or by using crow control moves.

However, since the rework and the incredibly stupid top heavy damage nerf, the berserker basically lost 90% his trading potentiel as well as the large majority of his bait mind games. It is now required to play him more like a basic hero with strong feints, which is and incredibly boring new play style.

I would like to thanks the devs, for that beautiful rework. Nerfing from 55 to 45 ? Yup seems legit. Nerfing from 55 to 40 ? Mmmh, maybe a bit to much but would still be somewhat understandble. Nerfing from 55 to 30 ? No. Just no. No one is scared by the top heavy anymore. It deals nothing. Do you know why Raider mix up is strong ? Cuz his zone is scary. 50 damage is scary, when we see it coming, we KNOW that we can't afford to take it, especially when we are stunned. Freaking stupid devs....

Hearing berserker players complain about kensei as a character is joyfully funny to me. Sorry berserker had a rediculously overpowered hyper armor move that was finally fixed, but if you think any character should have hyper armor on an attack that does 55 damage you are crazy. Trading blows should be left for moves with 35 damage or less. In a space where other movies that are stronger can actually have an impact without you having the safety net of throwing out the strongest move on the game knowing if you launch after someone else began their attack that your attack,the strongest move in the gane, would land. Thank GOD the dev team fixed this, it was one of the more lame moves I've ever seen. Every berserker used to play exactly the same because they were guaranteed this move would work, and again this extremely low risk and highest reward move was always going to work as outlined. Now berserker mains have to use many different moves and take advantage of the whole moveset. If you think the dev team had anything in mind except for that you are wrong

AkenoKobayashi
02-27-2018, 10:41 PM
I still don't understand why kensei needs hyper armor. I'm glad they had that out like candy now...

Don't know why anyone has hyper armor or unblockables, but that's how it work around here.

Vakris_One
02-28-2018, 12:06 AM
Don't know why anyone has hyper armor or unblockables, but that's how it work around here.
I can see the logic in giving hyper armour to slower characters so they can punch through, win some trades and continue a chain. I can also see the logic of having unblockable attacks so there's a way to force a reaction from a passive turtling player. I don't think every character needs to have both of these things though.

Devils-_-legacy
02-28-2018, 05:05 PM
Tbf he's always had them on his heavy's not sure if he needs them on his lights Ive never seen a kensie use them in a gank to trade instead I always see his aoe or heavys to give him self some breathing room