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View Full Version : OROCHI devs please...



Playing_Mantis
02-23-2018, 04:37 PM
This post won't go over the million reasons why orochi is lowest tier class as I'm sure you know and don't care to hear it over and over. I've noticed that nobody in the dev team plays it so thats why its not getting love. i don't really ever see it played at the events over than the one time hmmmmm played it. orochi really never ever gets played in any events or never gets talked about on the warriors den accept for the nerfs its getting. feels bad ubi. nobody ever uses is in competition because its simply has no place compared to the other heroes. I've been playing the other classes because season 5 basiclly makes orochi obsolete and i just can't get into them. i enjoy playing the orochi class but I'm not having fun this season with the over the top nerf. was already hard to play before season 5 but now... just can't bring myself to lose so much. i see other heroes getting buffs and between the other heroes getting better and the orochi getting worse its not feeling good for us orchi's. every buff to other classes makes the orochi that much worse. the community has posted well more than enough suggestions for the orochi with no feedback from the devs. why is his side attacks not the same as the other assassins? who knows. I'm not going to get into a battle with anyone over this but will orochi get some love or not? I'm not having fun with the other characters and will just have to wait and see if it will get a buff.

Vakris_One
02-23-2018, 05:04 PM
The short answer is yes, Orochi will get tweaked at some point. All of the OG roster will eventually.

I can still use Orochi just fine but maybe that's just me. I don't rely on just using his two favourite party tricks and I feel the majority of people complaining are also those who are too fixated on his top light and zone as "the only viable moves".

EvoX.
02-23-2018, 05:13 PM
All 12 original characters have been confirmed for rework/rebalance during Season 5. So, the most we'd have to wait for that buff is 3 months. It's not close, but it's coming.

And I feel you, Orochi was the first character I played before my boy Centurion. Hurts to see him in the trash bin.

Card1acArrest
02-23-2018, 11:24 PM
New factors:

1. New classes or remakes that go much more offensive. to break the turtle meta.

2. the orochi is a counter attacker.

3. 2 of his counters got 10 more damage now.
1 got 14-15ish less.
zone is same.

4. The Parry changes favour heavy attacks (less punish risk).

5. Ubi wants more fokus on risk to give reward. you must risk more to get more damage.

add all the above together and you may recalibrate and do as well as before.

you must counter with more heavies. less top light doubletap.

1.The Riptide is 40 damage. A LOT.
my son is a brilliant (now upset) orochi. gave up :)
he laughs at Riptide. too much risk.
compare it to warden heavy. slow as hell. same damage. it has its uses.
2. heavies. 30/35 damage. same risk / rewards as others?
3. Wind whatsitsname.
in 4v4 I use it a lot. you get a free doublelight if you land it.
35+22 damage. very very high.


im not saying he is not in a bad place. he was and still is. so little variety. but maybe not in a worse place. but you need to recalibrate.

I play orochi now for the challenge.

I would say my Valkyrie main is worse off relatively... long story that. :)

let us see what Ubi does to him the next months. i think they will only add chains and flexibility. mix ups. but not more damage.

Baturai
02-24-2018, 12:17 AM
I do pretty well against shaman with my Orochi.. But Hard turtle Vanguards ? F.cksake

What orochi really need is. Reflect guard + vanguard guard combination. some range/ tracking on his lights + an opener. Faster side lights.
reduce motion cooldown on dodge attempts + less stamina usage.. but zone can still drain 50% of stamina im ok with that.

Tyrjo
02-24-2018, 11:16 AM
Orochi players have been moaning about a buff for 10 months. Even back when data showed he wasn't performing worse than any other heroes. So it's become a bit of "Cry wolf".

I think the main reason we it so often is because Orochi is a popular hero and many people play him, not because he actually need a buff.

BarbeQMichael
02-24-2018, 11:58 AM
Orochi players have been moaning about a buff for 10 months. Even back when data showed he wasn't performing worse than any other heroes. So it's become a bit of "Cry wolf".

I think the main reason we it so often is because Orochi is a popular hero and many people play him, not because he actually need a buff.

This, orochi is by far the most played hero (still is, according to devs) and people will always demand buffs for their favourites. Sadly ubi has stopped publishing global stats (mostly because it would show how imbalanced certain characters are). The last stats I find are from alpha, they are hardly comparable nowdays but back then oro had pick rate of 30% out of 6 characters, followed by warden with 22% and raider 16%. Thats immense. He also had 50% wr which was only beaten by raider's 54% thanks to his easy unblockable (kensei was only other who had ub and it was the finisher) and people did not know how to parry it.

But yes, he needs the rework like most OC heroes (actually pk is the only one who doesn't need it) to match new heroes and will get it in some point in future.

SuguruMisato
02-24-2018, 03:54 PM
They have completely ****ed Orochi, it's beyond playable now. All the players I have met so far are just raping his broken zone attack, which in case you would parry or even block, you can throw a party like it's the end of the ****ing world. Thanks ubi for breaking this character without any reworks since his nerf. You are amazing company and keep at it, eventually you will get even lower.

I was really hoping for a good game, but the delais in server and all the new patches that just plain break the game even more are just pathetic.

To add to this topic - guards are now completely ****ing broken and work RANDOMLY. RANDOM****INGLY. I have to be a god and predict my enemy's movement. Each game of course, because each ****ing game is a new lag latency. ****, this game is tearing my fyckung nerves down.

HOW CAN I ****ING LEARN THE PATTERN IF I HAVE TO LEARN ENEMY ANEW EACH AND EVERY ****ING GAME!!!

This is ****ing boring and pathetic at the same time. Beyond the ****ing disconnects and WHOEVERTHE**** KNOWS WHY errors that kicks you out of the game... >_>

Kelson27
02-24-2018, 04:14 PM
They have completely ****ed Orochi, it's beyond playable now. All the players I have met so far are just raping his broken zone attack, which in case you would parry or even block, you can throw a party like it's the end of the ****ing world. Thanks ubi for breaking this character without any reworks since his nerf. You are amazing company and keep at it, eventually you will get even lower.

I was really hoping for a good game, but the delais in server and all the new patches that just plain break the game even more are just pathetic.

To add to this topic - guards are now completely ****ing broken and work RANDOMLY. RANDOM****INGLY. I have to be a god and predict my enemy's movement. Each game of course, because each ****ing game is a new lag latency. ****, this game is tearing my fyckung nerves down.

HOW CAN I ****ING LEARN THE PATTERN IF I HAVE TO LEARN ENEMY ANEW EACH AND EVERY ****ING GAME!!!

This is ****ing boring and pathetic at the same time. Beyond the ****ing disconnects and WHOEVERTHE**** KNOWS WHY errors that kicks you out of the game... >_>

This is how you derail a thread.

Iíd suggest if you keep getting your zone attack punished youíre being too predictable. I barely use it but when I do itís gotta be connecting at least 80% of the time. Also orochi is a counter attacker, you absolutely need to be predicting your enemies moves to be effective with him.

As for orochi rework
I personally donít think orochi is in need of a buff or nerf to damage really... id definitely like some more moves, he can feel pretty limited when playing against classes throwing plenty of variety at you. I was dueling against a decent Kensei today and thought heís got a bunch of my moves now! Except when he dodge attacks I canít gb him 😋 would love maybe a crushing side/too light or something a lil extra, a bit more on the chains so he can go offensive after countering. And a guaranteed light off a deflect, or at least have it interrupt chains. Orochi can not afford to trade after a successful counter, and some classes just carry on swinging.

SuguruMisato
02-24-2018, 05:22 PM
Dude, I've been playing Orochi since Closed Alpha... The changes and stupid nerfs they did to him make him unplayable right now... His light attacks are sometimes slower than others' heavey attacks... The problem with Orochi is ubi is constantly tweaking characters, while Orochi got light attack nerfed and now they will "rework" him. When!? This is ******** to nerf character's attack with a note of a rework and then completely forgetting about him... Better to buff Shaman, because, you know, SEASON PASS!? GIB MONEY PLZ. Or grind like a ****** for the character to have...

Playing_Mantis
03-02-2018, 01:38 AM
orochi is actually not even close to the most played character in dual mode. sorry, but its just not true. orochi gets his *** kicked in there. take a poll of the next 100 characters u face in dual and i guarantee u will see way more cents, law bringers, and few others. so the argument of there is just more roach players is complete bull ****. argue all u like but the orochi is plain broken garbage right now. sorry, go ahead and say I'm playing it wrong...bla bla bla... point is the roach basically has no mixups and slow as **** side attacks. so do i just sit there and wait for deflects?? **** that. he's in a **** place with the valk down there and I'm not playing the game unless he gets a fix. thanks ubi for leaving the roach in the dust. tried the other heroes and just don't like the play style.. but i also can't stand getting face rolled with the roach either.

Sauronbaine
03-02-2018, 06:39 AM
orochi is actually not even close to the most played character in dual mode. sorry, but its just not true. orochi gets his *** kicked in there. take a poll of the next 100 characters u face in dual and i guarantee u will see way more cents, law bringers, and few others. so the argument of there is just more roach players is complete bull ****. argue all u like but the orochi is plain broken garbage right now. sorry, go ahead and say I'm playing it wrong...bla bla bla... point is the roach basically has no mixups and slow as **** side attacks. so do i just sit there and wait for deflects?? **** that. he's in a **** place with the valk down there and I'm not playing the game unless he gets a fix. thanks ubi for leaving the roach in the dust. tried the other heroes and just don't like the play style.. but i also can't stand getting face rolled with the roach either.

Lol see more cents. Your disillusioned. Maybe on Console, but on PC Centurion is not played much at ALL anymore.

Lawbringer... ok ill give you that.

Orochi is not in a TERRIBLE spot, hes just lackluster compared to the other assassins. If you think hes terrible, you're just not playing him right.. He's NOT the worst character in the game. Not even close. Shugoki is worse, centurion is worse, and.... I think Warlord is worse. Not sure on that one.

guor6800
03-02-2018, 08:50 AM
Lol see more cents. Your disillusioned. Maybe on Console, but on PC Centurion is not played much at ALL anymore.

Lawbringer... ok ill give you that.

Orochi is not in a TERRIBLE spot, hes just lackluster compared to the other assassins. If you think hes terrible, you're just not playing him right.. He's NOT the worst character in the game. Not even close. Shugoki is worse, centurion is worse, and.... I think Warlord is worse. Not sure on that one.

Playing on pc and I see a lot more cents and lawbros than orochis. I guess it's about region.

Orochi stronger than shugoki, and warlord?
C'mon dude don't make me laugh. An instant zone and a nerfed double top is all he has.
With the amount of HA existing going for deflect trade isn't really advantageous.

As for centurion. Flawed from scratch. He doesn't even belong in the roster. Stupid turtle opener who has ultra punishes and can turtle as good as anyone if not better.

Sauronbaine
03-02-2018, 09:05 AM
Playing on pc and I see a lot more cents and lawbros than orochis. I guess it's about region.

Orochi stronger than shugoki, and warlord?
C'mon dude don't make me laugh. An instant zone and a nerfed double top is all he has.
With the amount of HA existing going for deflect trade isn't really advantageous.

As for centurion. Flawed from scratch. He doesn't even belong in the roster. Stupid turtle opener who has ultra punishes and can turtle as good as anyone if not better.

See. Thats what you think. You just dont wanna use his entire kit. You are just using the two most OP parts of him. Thats like saying the centurions only use is the heavy attacks. You ahve to use the entire kit and Orochi has a decent kit, which could juse use better numbers/things.

Like if the back attack could be feinted.

I use the entirety of his kit. Just using top light and zone is as dumb as just heavy attacking as a centurion or only throwing top lights as a warden.


Refusing to use his entire kit would of course make him feel like crap. Im not saying hes good but hes not TRASH.

guor6800
03-02-2018, 10:43 AM
See. Thats what you think. You just dont wanna use his entire kit. You are just using the two most OP parts of him. Thats like saying the centurions only use is the heavy attacks. You ahve to use the entire kit and Orochi has a decent kit, which could juse use better numbers/things.

Like if the back attack could be feinted.

I use the entirety of his kit. Just using top light and zone is as dumb as just heavy attacking as a centurion or only throwing top lights as a warden.


Refusing to use his entire kit would of course make him feel like crap. Im not saying hes good but hes not TRASH.

Don't get me wrong. In higher level play every champion can make outplays that's for sure. But except those 2 kinda safe moves he has nothing dependable. Most of his moves are either telegraphed or you can't even faint out of them.

He sure is in need of some adjustments. And right now alongside valk I believe they are the lowest champion in terms of viability. If I had to pick a knight that would probably be warden.

Centurion needs a whole damn rework. Stupid idea even more stupid design. In general season 2 chars are a bit off comparing them to the rest of the roster.
A disturbingly vocal Roman who punches and kicks ad infinitum, and a naruto wannabe that has range attacks and blink. In a swordfighting game.

scharrk
03-02-2018, 10:46 AM
Like if the back attack could be feinted.


Yea, if if if...

I play on PC and due this week i just saw 1 or 2 Orochis. Everybody who says he is the most played Character must be really "special.
Im a Rep 11 Orochi only player and definitly know what i'm doing. But sometimes, you don't even have chance because the lack of opportunities. I think he is the only class without unblockables and without hyperarmor.
Sometimes it feels you fight with a child against adults.

Sauronbaine
03-02-2018, 11:20 AM
Don't get me wrong. In higher level play every champion can make outplays that's for sure. But except those 2 kinda safe moves he has nothing dependable. Most of his moves are either telegraphed or you can't even faint out of them.

He sure is in need of some adjustments. And right now alongside valk I believe they are the lowest champion in terms of viability. If I had to pick a knight that would probably be warden.

Centurion needs a whole damn rework. Stupid idea even more stupid design. In general season 2 chars are a bit off comparing them to the rest of the roster.
A disturbingly vocal Roman who punches and kicks ad infinitum, and a naruto wannabe that has range attacks and blink. In a swordfighting game.

The problem here is... he shouldn't have only safe moves. Every character has a very few amount of "safe" moves. Warden JUST got his zone to be safe.


Yea, if if if...

I play on PC and due this week i just saw 1 or 2 Orochis. Everybody who says he is the most played Character must be really "special.
Im a Rep 11 Orochi only player and definitly know what i'm doing. But sometimes, you don't even have chance because the lack of opportunities. I think he is the only class without unblockables and without hyperarmor.
Sometimes it feels you fight with a child against adults.


He has hyperarmor and unblockables on his deflect, which both are VERY good. Maybe a bit better heavy attack on the deflect, but he has them. If you mean out of neutral, fair point, but not everyone has a good neutral unblockable either.

You will rarely see Centurions, Valks, Shugokis, Orochis... honestly you just dont see very much of most of the classes. Even Shinobis you rarely see.

scharrk
03-02-2018, 01:10 PM
He has hyperarmor and unblockables on his deflect, which both are VERY good. Maybe a bit better heavy attack on the deflect, but he has them. If you mean out of neutral, fair point, but not everyone has a good neutral unblockable either.
.

So we have 1 unblockable out of a deflect (which is a pain in the *** to do). Wasnt even the hyperarmor removed from the deflect attacks ???
Anyway, as i said in another thread. Orochi is good against enemies with lower skill, with even skill it will be a tough game and if the enemie has got a higher skill, you better start to pray.

Kamen42
03-02-2018, 01:32 PM
What orochi really need is. Reflect guard + vanguard guard combination.

What do you mean by Vanguard guard? Is it the one that doesn't go away after a little while? Basically what everyone except assassins have? How would that even work?

Anyway. Because of a lack of an opener, Orochi only really sucks against people who turtle, block everything and rely on parry punishes. Against people who attack at least a bit, Orochi is fine.

Card1acArrest
03-02-2018, 01:39 PM
Let's try to be a bit constructive.

The double top light is a low-risk damage you can use to keep pressure on the enemy if he gives you a brief opening. The zone comes into the same category more or less, it is a fast attack everyone knows is coming but you can still use it due to its speed. Quite often you can pull of either if the enemy initiates a heavy attack or whatnot. This top light has now less damage. It used to be a "heavy damage" hit, which was a bit OP to be honest?

All his other moves are reactionary, or timing based.
- Top Heavy. (fast, good damage)
- Side Heavy.
- Dodge hits.
- Riptide (40 damage)
- Stormrush(never remember if this is the right name). (25 or 35?? damage + 22 damage top lights)
- deflects (I use them hardly ever, I need to rewire my brain, there is potential there....!)

ALL THOSE ATTACKS you can still use with good effect, If you play as a counter attacker.
2 of them got BUFFED to compensate for the light nerf.


I consider myself a relatively good player, who gets eaten alive by a great player and can do well in most 4v4 otherwise.
Zerks are a pain the arse right now, I need to train some bots to get recalibrated on the with Orochi, for example.

I score more kills with my kensei and PK than my Valk (main) and Orochi (new main).
I think this always will be the case.(??).

What I think I see is that at HIGH level play, the mind game is WHAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE MORE AND MORE.
Nobody have any magic tricks.-
The players dance around each other with relatively large spacing, trying to identify that one split second they can commit their attack.
You feint, you whiff, you dodge or doubledodge, you position yourself all the time.

For all those items, the Orochi's kit is as viable as most other classes??

I only play 4v4 now (im too aggressive to play duels :-)).
Still a bit too aggressive so I die a bit more than I should.
Right now I can hold my own vs most ppl with the Orochi.
If I enter a 2v2 or 3v3, he is quite lethal. My StormRushes can cover 10 yards of distance in 200 ms and land 50+ damage to other enemies than the one i target a split second before.

I still think I could do more kills with Kensei or PK, but if I get tired of getting spanked I pull out the Valk who is a much better crowd controller.

So if you can try focus on the reactionary part of Orochi, maybe it can be of help for you guys who feel a lot of pain now?

LEGENDz_31
03-02-2018, 02:46 PM
Our problem is that we are a counter attacker that most good player simply will not attack. They will hold top guard and feight until you use one of our slow as hell other moves. Our side lights are so godly slow that I can parry them in my sleep. If a opponent attacks, then Orochiís dodge attack is useful but if they keep faking attacks, as soon as you do dodge itís a ez parry/gb. If a opponent attacks then riptide can be used effectively but if he keeps faking attacks and the Orochi is stupid enough to activate it, I can take a brief nap then parry it. My Point is, that people at high lv will just turtle and Orochi is extremely gimped against turtles.

Deflect use to be my money move, now that is not nearly as good to use because of all the hyper armor in the game. Itís better and safer to parry.

To recap, good player simply will not attack us. It leaves us no options to compete at a higher tier because our other kit can be used at lower lvs but good players will easily parry it.

(My fix)
1. Keep top light damage what it is now but increase side lights speed.

2. Deflect NEEDs to stop chains.

3. Rip tide need to be cancelable.

Lv43 orochi

guor6800
03-02-2018, 02:53 PM
So if you can try focus on the reactionary part of Orochi, maybe it can be of help for you guys who feel a lot of pain now?

So the only way for someone to actually play orochi is by turtling?And what im gonna do if the other player turtles too? Snake eyes?

That's the same case kensei and conq pre-rework were. A good player with them would wipe the floor even without any of the recent buffs. But when you actually compared their options to what the rest of the roster had it felt very limited. Exactly the same case here with orochi.

I mean everything you posted is downright legit. Can't argue with them. But let's put it another way. Two player on the same skill one on shaman/gladiator/pk/kensei etc A tier chars and one on orochi. Who has the more tools and tricks to be innovative and play better mind games? Thats what im trying to say.