PDA

View Full Version : so I did a thing.



Knight_Raime
02-21-2018, 10:08 AM
I posted my final changes for centurion on the feedback suggestion. I would just copy pasta here but I don't want it to be flagged as spam.
Mainly just letting people know here so they can give me feedback on my suggestions.
Appreciate it guys.

bob333e
02-21-2018, 03:56 PM
I agree with most of your points. Nice list you've put there in Suggestions & Feedback. I had actually suggested the same things under another thread yesterday, but immediately got jumped on by people who play Cent. Difference is:

- I had also suggested to remove his fully charged jab from his kit, and replace it with something that smoothens transition in-between moves, to enhance kit flow..

- I had suggested to remove his triple punch on GB as well. Make it at most 2 punches and can follow up with a throw for a side heavy, or wallsplat in case of a wall and charged heavy. This acts as a light parry counter. Would be different from the heavy parry counter (knee to the face + able to land a light).

He also needs to be able to hard-feint his charged heavies within a certain threshold

brashtralas
02-21-2018, 04:21 PM
Great posts. I think Ubisoft should make a serious decision about being knocked down/held across all characters that can do it. In my opinion, itís only something that should happen when OOS, and should function like shamans bite(knocked out of the animation when stuck by anyone, teammates included).

On that note, I agree with charged jab removal.

Knight_Raime
02-21-2018, 08:33 PM
I agree with most of your points. Nice list you've put there in Suggestions & Feedback. I had actually suggested the same things under another thread yesterday, but immediately got jumped on by people who play Cent. Difference is:

- I had also suggested to remove his fully charged jab from his kit, and replace it with something that smoothens transition in-between moves, to enhance kit flow..

- I had suggested to remove his triple punch on GB as well. Make it at most 2 punches and can follow up with a throw for a side heavy, or wallsplat in case of a wall and charged heavy. This acts as a light parry counter. Would be different from the heavy parry counter (knee to the face + able to land a light).

He also needs to be able to hard-feint his charged heavies within a certain threshold

I need to make some adjustments to it per feedback i've gotten elsewhere. But I appreciate you taking the time to read it.
And I think I know who you're talking about. aha.

I'm not sure on the removal of the final smack though. can you try to explain why you'd like that gone?
I mean are you saying the window needs to be before it can go unblockable (if heavy finisher?)

Because I don't know if I can agree to that.

Knight_Raime
02-21-2018, 08:35 PM
Great posts. I think Ubisoft should make a serious decision about being knocked down/held across all characters that can do it. In my opinion, it’s only something that should happen when OOS, and should function like shamans bite(knocked out of the animation when stuck by anyone, teammates included).

On that note, I agree with charged jab removal.

I think beyond centurions jab conq's shield tackle is the only other move that knocks you on the ground wether you're OOS or not.
and while grab attacks like shaman's bite, LB's long arm, and goki's hug all end up with you on the ground they are essentially grab attacks. And those, in my opinion, feel more natural to be knocked down for. Not saying each move is fine as is. Just stating that the act of them putting you on the ground feels more okay to me than centurions jab knocking you down when not OOS.

bob333e
02-21-2018, 09:01 PM
I need to make some adjustments to it per feedback i've gotten elsewhere. But I appreciate you taking the time to read it.
And I think I know who you're talking about. aha.

I'm not sure on the removal of the final smack though. can you try to explain why you'd like that gone?
I mean are you saying the window needs to be before it can go unblockable (if heavy finisher?)

Because I don't know if I can agree to that.

You mean the triple punch on GB? I feel the third one is unnecessary and is a little too high of a stamina drain for just being a light parry counter (as per my suggestion). Basically, no character should be able to just drain your precious juice just from one parry counter. (We're talking parry counters; moves like Raider's Stampede Charge aren't parry counters so those must be addressed differently).

Knight_Raime
02-21-2018, 09:13 PM
You mean the triple punch on GB? I feel the third one is unnecessary and is a little too high of a stamina drain for just being a light parry counter (as per my suggestion). Basically, no character should be able to just drain your precious juice just from one parry counter. (We're talking parry counters; moves like Raider's Stampede Charge aren't parry counters so those must be addressed differently).

Hmm. So how would you initiate this new parry counter input wise?
and would his pommel smacks be gone now from a standard GB?
if so he'd have to not do the second smack if he wanted to throw the person into a wall. And at that point i'd ask why have the smacks at all off of a standard GB. As a parry counter (his current) would be far more rewarding in nearly any instance I can think of. Since his knee can also splat.

bob333e
02-21-2018, 09:28 PM
Hmm. So how would you initiate this new parry counter input wise?
and would his pommel smacks be gone now from a standard GB?
if so he'd have to not do the second smack if he wanted to throw the person into a wall. And at that point i'd ask why have the smacks at all off of a standard GB. As a parry counter (his current) would be far more rewarding in nearly any instance I can think of. Since his knee can also splat.

On light parry: light parry counter input: GB into two punches, can be chained with a side heavy, or if there's a wall, GB into 2 punches, can be chained into a throw (pressing "punch" again after the 2nd punch) and then wallsplat > charged heavy. Damage input is in-line with other light parry punishes (considering we also buff the damage of his normal heavies). And stamina drain remains not too unfair.

On heavy parry: heavy parry counter input: GB into face-knee into light. Is in-line with other heavy parry punishes, with added stamina drain / stun. Can wallsplat if near a wall for added punish.

On normal GB: cannot punch nor face-knee, and can either:

- side heavy
- throw > light
- throw > LK > light
- if there's a wall, throw > wallsplat > both side heavy and charged heavy can work.

No more fully charged jab for free Eagle Talon. He'll have to earn Eagle Talon through knockdown that pertains to the core combat system rules. Or, he can put the opponent OOS, and his normal jab can then knockdown if it lands, akin to how Glad's toestab works. Normal jab also cannot be launched from neutral, he'll have to work a combo/mixup to land it.

Just saying, the limit would be 2 punches instead of 3. I just feel 3 punches is a bit too rewarding for Cent. I'm just not entirely sure how this would work input-wise, seeing as the required triggers for these specific actions are the same buttons, only, initiated from either normal GB, heavy parry, or light parry, which would alter the command output into different animations/counters.

So basically, he has the same parry punishes as other heroes, but in his case he can also drain stamina with punches / face-knee (unless it's a normal GB, not after a parry). And both his parry punishes can result in wallsplat.

UbiJurassic
02-21-2018, 09:38 PM
I'll be sure to go check it out, Knight_Raime! :)

Knight_Raime
02-21-2018, 09:42 PM
On light parry: light parry counter input: GB into two punches, can be chained with a side heavy, or if there's a wall, GB into 2 punches, can be chained into a throw (pressing "punch" again after the 2nd punch) and then wallsplat > charged heavy. Damage input is in-line with other light parry punishes (considering we also buff the damage of his normal heavies). And stamina drain remains not too unfair.

On heavy parry: heavy parry counter input: GB into face-knee into light. Is in-line with other heavy parry punishes, with added stamina drain / stun. Can wallsplat if near a wall for added punish.

On normal GB: cannot punch nor face-knee, and can either:

- side heavy
- throw > light
- throw > LK > light
- if there's a wall, throw > wallsplat > both side heavy and charged heavy can work.

No more fully charged jab for free Eagle Talon. He'll have to earn Eagle Talon through knockdown that pertains to the core combat system rules.

Just saying, the limit would be 2 punches instead of 3. I just feel 3 punches is a bit too rewarding for Cent. I'm just not entirely sure how this would work input-wise, seeing as the required triggers for these specific actions are the same buttons, only, initiated from either normal GB, heavy parry, or light parry, which would alter the command output into different animations/counters.

So basically, he has the same parry punishes as other heroes, but in his case he can also drain stamina with punches / face-knee (unless it's a normal GB, not after a parry). And both his parry punishes can result in wallsplat.

Ah I see. so a seperate parry counter for the type of parry. I am not sure if that's actually possible. I didn't code the game.
But I think to make your idea easier input wise you can just have normal parry counter be as Parry+gb immediately. and then for your new parry counter your guy holds GB after the parry. the 2 smacks are done for you and then you press GB manually with the direction you'd want to throw him.

My problem with this is that the reason why centurions mix up game (heavy soft feint into GB) is only really threatening because he can do good stamina damage and/or wall splat for his combo. Granted with my suggestions his pressure across the board would be better. I'm just not so sure about killing the benefits of wall splats is a good idea. Especially if we are nerfing both methods he uses to drain stamina (my nerf to his parry counter and your removal of smacks from a standard GB)

I'm not saying I flat out disagree with you. I'm just having a hard time seeing how these changes would play with my suggestions. It's easier for me to look at how they'd effect current centurion. and that's primarily why i'm so hesitant to these suggestions. You skipped over something though. I asked you to talk more about your suggestion of "able to hard-feint his charged heavies within a certain threshold."

Knight_Raime
02-21-2018, 09:43 PM
I'll be sure to go check it out, Knight_Raime! :)

I appreciate it. However I want to note that while it's my final thread on reworking him the suggestions themselves are not 100% done.
I've been gathering feedback from here and the competitive reddit. So likely either tonight or tommorrow it's going to be updated. Just keep that in mind.

bob333e
02-21-2018, 09:54 PM
Ah I see. so a seperate parry counter for the type of parry. I am not sure if that's actually possible. I didn't code the game.
But I think to make your idea easier input wise you can just have normal parry counter be as Parry+gb immediately. and then for your new parry counter your guy holds GB after the parry. the 2 smacks are done for you and then you press GB manually with the direction you'd want to throw him.

My problem with this is that the reason why centurions mix up game (heavy soft feint into GB) is only really threatening because he can do good stamina damage and/or wall splat for his combo. Granted with my suggestions his pressure across the board would be better. I'm just not so sure about killing the benefits of wall splats is a good idea. Especially if we are nerfing both methods he uses to drain stamina (my nerf to his parry counter and your removal of smacks from a standard GB)

I'm not saying I flat out disagree with you. I'm just having a hard time seeing how these changes would play with my suggestions. It's easier for me to look at how they'd effect current centurion. and that's primarily why i'm so hesitant to these suggestions. You skipped over something though. I asked you to talk more about your suggestion of "able to hard-feint his charged heavies within a certain threshold."

Yeah, holding the GB button for the punches should do. Seems easier and more practical to implement, than manually punching.

The one thing that most people complain about with Centurion, is the fact he can throw a fully charged jab after a charged heavy, then land a Eagle Talon. It's two strong-hitting heavies, with 80% stamina drain. Hence why I thought of suggesting to remove his fully charged jab.

But you're right. Coupled with your own suggestions in the other thread, I think it's starting to slide a bit into the "nerf" territory. It's just the thing with his fully charged jab offering a free hard-hitting heavy, a free knockdown, and a free stamina drain. That's why I stressed on this particular move a little bit.

You're certainly the more knowledgeable one about Cent, you mained Cent for an entire season. I wasn't looking to bypass your points (which, btw, are very logical and I like most of them). Was simply suggesting to reduce how many free hits he can land, through circumventing core combat rules.

About the hard-feint line: he can cancel his side charged heavy / top charged heavy much like Raider can cancel his zone. Would enhance mind games with Cent, coupled with a cancellable zone after the 2nd swing. Instead of giving him more punches or more softfeints which would only aggravate how bad he is, imo.

Though, thanks for debating with me on this, always happy to engage in a healthy discussion. Bear in mind I'm also not all too sure about these changes as well because I personally can only attest to something when I myself test it in-game, so do take all my suggestions as partially theoretical.

Knight_Raime
02-21-2018, 10:08 PM
Yeah, holding the GB button for the punches should do. Seems easier and more practical to implement, than manually punching.

The one thing that most people complain about with Centurion, is the fact he can throw a fully charged jab after a charged heavy, then land a Eagle Talon. It's two strong-hitting heavies, with 80% stamina drain. Hence why I thought of suggesting to remove his fully charged jab.

But you're right. Coupled with your own suggestions in the other thread, I think it's starting to slide a bit into the "nerf" territory. It's just the thing with his fully charged jab offering a free hard-hitting heavy, a free knockdown, and a free stamina drain. That's why I stressed on this particular move a little bit.

You're certainly the more knowledgeable one about Cent, you mained Cent for an entire season. I wasn't looking to bypass your points (which, btw, are very logical and I like most of them). Was simply suggesting to reduce how many free hits he can land, through circumventing core combat rules.

About the hard-feint line: he can cancel his side charged heavy / top charged heavy much like Raider can cancel his zone. Would enhance mind games with Cent, coupled with a cancellable zone after the 2nd swing. Instead of giving him more punches or more softfeints which would only aggravate how bad he is, imo.

Though, thanks for debating with me on this, always happy to engage in a healthy discussion. Bear in mind I'm also not all too sure about these changes as well because I personally can only attest to something when I myself test it in-game, so do take all my suggestions as partially theoretical.

Well the idea of giving him a different parry counter (just as a base idea) I don't see anything wrong with. Just trying to figure out what it would be is a bit difficult. And justifying why he'd get another one is also difficult. Only reason I could see why giving him another option (in general) is to give him more mix up potential as he is tailored to be mix up intensive. However I think that with my current list of suggestions he's got plenty of mix ups. Further more one of his issues was centurion having waaaay too many things for an individual to keep track of. And while i'm perfectly aware that my suggestions do give more for the person to learn I think that's sort of par for the course for any rework. The only other issue here with your suggestion is that it's dependent on what you parry. While they did make parrying easier to understand in a multitude of ways I think this would just be more confusing than helpful.

Anyway. If your new parry counter was merely a solution to the stamina damage he does with triple smack then I feel the safer and easier suggestion is to just nerf the stamina damage either on the third hit or how much stamina damage all 3 smacks do. Which i'm not opposed to. I'd just have to think which would be the better change. Like if his third hit barely did any stamina damage people would always just go for the throw. I feel like currently he's a lot like pk but instead of bleed on gb he does stamina damage. I want to retain that. So let me think on it. I need to think about my post in general as i'm getting a lot of feedback on the competitive reddit. Mostly well received but deff some feedback I need to take into consideration.

I understand how frustrating his combo is and agree that it was easy to get to. But at the same time the fact that he lost his light parry punish and parries no longer give GB's he already has much less chance for his combo to happen even in a 4v4 situation. I would say to you (without giving further thought) that you pick either the removal of combo on splat but his stamina damage stays the same. Or his stamina damage is nerfed but wall splat into the combo still exists. as even with my rework I think slamming him with both would be a bit of an overkill. Also I played him basically exclusively for season 2,3 and what little I played of 4. so d:

okay. I'm going to go on a limb here since idk if your suggestions were made with my rework in mind or not. are you saying he can only hard feint in like 2 timings but my additional soft feints from charged heavy (kick or furry) give him mix up game like raider?

bob333e
02-22-2018, 03:01 AM
Argh.. alright, you got me. I'm gonna devote more time and thought into crafting a super-message to reply back to you with. It's decided.

I'm now actually more interested in discussing Centurion changes. I was a bit skeptical at first because I know you're a Cent main (or were), so I didn't want to annoy anybody who uses Cent, with whatever suggestions I came up with. But you encourage me to delve even deeper into refining my train of thought and actually communicate my idea in full clear, of what the hell I was talking about.

That said, I'll be getting back to you on here, with a longer text, detailing more clearly how I thought of implementing your suggestions alongside some of mine. And I hope we can birth an interesting and insightful discussion that will hopefully inspire others as well to chime in. I've noticed a lack of response around Centurion reworks around here. A lot of people still hate that hero and just want him dead.

EvoX.
02-22-2018, 03:42 AM
~centurion's zone is now cancelable if the first hit connects or is blocked. If it's whiffed he can only cancel after the second hit.
This will give his zone some 1v1 potential and let him more efficiently clear B in dominion without becoming unpunishable in either regard.

Don't see how this gives his zone potential. Although it's technically the same speed as most others', his is a lot easier to react to since it's so telegraphed. The first hit will always either be blocked or parried, the latter hits being feintable isn't really relevant from then on. You're looking at chip damage, at best.

The only use I could think of is doing the zone on a knocked down opponent and not getting parried on the 3rd strike, but that's... meh.


Quick throw: Timing to cgb is "slightly" tighter. quick throw can now be initiated on either a light or a heavy confirmed hit. New input is back+ guard break.

In my opinion, Quick Throw should just be removed. I see no way of making the move viable without making it overpowered. What you suggested may be good for a week, then everyone will know the timing and it will go back to being completely useless. I don't think a lot of players spam GB out of QT, anyway, I always press it once and it techs it.

''Tighter window'' doesn't really mean much nowadays, when even average players can block 400ms attacks consistently.


Jab: No longer knocks people down unless the charged jab puts the person OOS or if they were already OOS. Jab gains better tracking when charging so people who side dodge early can still be hit by it. Jab can wall splat people if fully charged and knocks people who have stamina still back a decent distance. Can cancel out of charged jab via dodging.

Doesn't the bold just guarantee a guardbreak on you?

> Start charging the Jab
> Opponent dodges
> You either let it finish and whiff, entering recovery frames and getting GB'd or you cancel it with a dodge and you just get dodge caught with a GB.

Maybe I don't fully understand this suggestion, though.

Everything I haven't quoted I can agree with, didn't really see any proposed new punish for light parry, however.

Knight_Raime
02-23-2018, 10:22 AM
@EVO
apologies for the late reply. been dealing with...personal stuff. anyway:

1) Our experiences differ then. Whenever I do let a zone rip the first hit lands 90% of the time.
Adding in the feint removes being punished if the first hit lands. and it also means you can use it in a gank situation to hit multiple people and then cancel out. or kill soldiers on B and feint to handle the approaching person. Even if it's blocked or parried as often as you say it is there is literally no reason to not let it be feintable. every other multihit zone basically is barring zerks and shinobi's. zerks I get why though.

2) I don't think you're getting the point really. The main issue for qt is that it comes at a predictable time. by doubling the instances it can be used in you essentially double the amount of times it will land. I am not for removing something unless it can be replaced by something else. Centurion needs more not less.

3) If they dodge early the jab tracks. Did you miss this part of the thread? The only way they're going to GB me is if they dodge late.

He doesn't need a different light parry punish in my opinion. But i'm open to suggestions.

Knight_Raime
02-23-2018, 10:23 AM
Argh.. alright, you got me. I'm gonna devote more time and thought into crafting a super-message to reply back to you with. It's decided.

I'm now actually more interested in discussing Centurion changes. I was a bit skeptical at first because I know you're a Cent main (or were), so I didn't want to annoy anybody who uses Cent, with whatever suggestions I came up with. But you encourage me to delve even deeper into refining my train of thought and actually communicate my idea in full clear, of what the hell I was talking about.

That said, I'll be getting back to you on here, with a longer text, detailing more clearly how I thought of implementing your suggestions alongside some of mine. And I hope we can birth an interesting and insightful discussion that will hopefully inspire others as well to chime in. I've noticed a lack of response around Centurion reworks around here. A lot of people still hate that hero and just want him dead.

Ah you don't need to put that much effort in fady. I appreciate the discussion as is. c: