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Knight_Raime
02-19-2018, 08:45 PM
We don't need to give every hero an unblockable opener from neutral. There I said it. Let me explain why. We don't want to make defensive play irrelevant. Lets look at gladiator. He's considered one of the best designed heros in the game by the competitive community. The golden standard for hero design. And i'd agree. But he only got this way because he can completely ignore defense. Am I saying he needs a nerf? no. But he's a problem from a design perspective. You have established rules in the game. Building blocks that people learn. When you create something that circumvents standard rules you need to be super careful about what rule and how. Gladiator "gets away" with it because none of his unblockables give a free damage follow up sans his zone. (which we can all agree is bs anyway.)

This sort of stems into an over arching pet peeve of mine where people are trying to create a solution that fits all. Which in most cases is not possible for hero based games. The desire to give everyone an unblockable from neutral is born from wanting to "open" up a hyper defensive player. I agree that all heros need some way to force another player to do more than passively block. But the solution isn't always an unblockable bash of sorts from neutral. The changes have to actually fit the characters theme.

Kensei was done right. The pommel smack makes sense. it can't just be thrown from neutral either. it has to preceed a soft feinted heavy from neutral. Further more all of kensei's soft feints from neutral cost him a decent chunk of stamina in the process. And pommel itself has many counters.

Berzerker is a hero that is someone who struggled to open up a turtle. The devs rather than giving her an easy access unblockable let feints play into her chains. Gave her other things to chain into. and gave unblockables on the end of combos in order to make zerker go further in combos if they wanted to force a reaction. Zerker is supposed to get in through mind games. I get that an amazing player can read and react to her (in theory) and still shut her out post patch. But in my opinion this is fine.

Since the game is (at a higher level anyway) all about mind gaming your opponent and you shouldn't just be able to get in on someone who's playing better. They gave her an easier time (some what) for getting to her combos and a reward for getting to the end of them. She needed that. But she doesn't need some unblockable punch from neutral.


I'm rambling so let me come back. I'm not saying unblockables shouldn't be given in the rest of the reworks. Nor am I saying it's never okay to have an unblockable bash from neutral. Every hero should have a way to force a reaction beyond passive blocking. I'm just saying giving an unblockable bash from neutral is not the correct solution for every kit. Nor is it a good idea to let every kit in the game ignore defense from neutral. Defense still needs to be usable and viable. and it really only needs a few more tweaks. (OOS adjustments on assassin back dashes for one.) I would much prefer if every hero in the game just got viable mix ups that force their opponent to actually read what's happening. And if an unblockable is added into any kit at this point it should be done from a mix up. Not neutral.

Cliff_001
02-19-2018, 08:51 PM
Agree 100%, said this a week ago never got really any responses. Everyone does not need similar move set's and it is ok to have different ways to play characters, after all that is why they have vanguards, heavies, assassins, and hybrids.

Knight_Raime
02-19-2018, 08:53 PM
Agree 100%, said this a week ago never got really any responses. Everyone does not need similar move set's and it is ok to have different ways to play characters, after all that is why they have vanguards, heavies, assassins, and hybrids.

I think many players including myself get lost in looking at the game in spread sheet like fashion and forget actual gameplay.
Like there is already a bunch of people bagging on kensei because "everything he can do now is 100% counterable" and sure, it is.
but does it honestly play out like that? No.

Cliff_001
02-19-2018, 09:19 PM
I think many players including myself get lost in looking at the game in spread sheet like fashion and forget actual gameplay.
Like there is already a bunch of people bagging on kensei because "everything he can do now is 100% counterable" and sure, it is.
but does it honestly play out like that? No.
Can't blame people for looking at best case scenarios of fights and kits but like you said there is rarely a perfect fight. Also a lot of people mainly look at 1v1s for these changes but 4v4 is what most people play and if we just give tons of unblockables to all characters its really just going to be whoever can stunlock better wins.

Knight_Raime
02-19-2018, 09:31 PM
Can't blame people for looking at best case scenarios of fights and kits but like you said there is rarely a perfect fight. Also a lot of people mainly look at 1v1s for these changes but 4v4 is what most people play and if we just give tons of unblockables to all characters its really just going to be whoever can stunlock better wins.

i'm guilty of this. I only duel.

mrmistark
02-19-2018, 09:36 PM
I agree fully.

We already lost out on most our defense thanks to Def Pen (seriously, 1 stat for 3 maxed defense is rediculous). We don’t need to keep making defense unviable or a 2 second gimmick (looking at you blade blockade). It SHOULD be a part of the game. I agree that the direction they took the reworks was very good. Your OP is pretty much what I’ve argued in the past more or less against “CC for everyone” posters. It’s definitely a minority opinion but hopefully with these reworks it will open others perspectives.

Knight_Raime
02-19-2018, 09:42 PM
I agree fully.

We already lost out on most our defense thanks to Def Pen (seriously, 1 stat for 3 maxed defense is rediculous). We don’t need to keep making defense unviable or a 2 second gimmick (looking at you blade blockade). It SHOULD be a part of the game. I agree that the direction they took the reworks was very good. Your OP is pretty much what I’ve argued in the past more or less against “CC for everyone” posters. It’s definitely a minority opinion but hopefully with these reworks it will open others perspectives.

yeah everytime I see the suggestion to let lights not be stopped combo wise outside of OOS I cringe pretty hard.

Cliff_001
02-19-2018, 09:51 PM
i'm guilty of this. I only duel.
Yea I mainly only play 4v4 now so we probably see the game in somewhat of a different light but I just hope they keep some sort of diversity between the classes.

Vakris_One
02-19-2018, 11:38 PM
I controversially agree with this controversial opinion. May the controversial forum Gods controversially have mercy on my controversial soul.


controversial.

:)

Ubi-Boat
02-19-2018, 11:51 PM
There's definitely a lot of feedback to chew on in this thread. Thank you for sharing, Knight_Raime. I also see that their are some people that share and support your opinions so I will be sure to get this to the team so they can look over everything that is being said in here!

Arekonator
02-20-2018, 12:09 AM
I am not saying you are wrong. I am just curious, how would you help some of the heroes that notoriously strugle with initiating offense, say shugoki or lawbringer?

Vakris_One
02-20-2018, 12:22 AM
There's definitely a lot of feedback to chew on in this thread. Thank you for sharing, Knight_Raime. I also see that their are some people that share and support your opinions so I will be sure to get this to the team so they can look over everything that is being said in here!
This is highly controversial :p


I am not saying you are wrong. I am just curious, how would you help some of the heroes that notoriously strugle with initiating offense, say shugoki or lawbringer?
Could give them a soft cancel into bash like the Kensei's pommel strike. Lawbro already has his block shove mixup game although he is definitely in need of a rework.

Shugo I feel would be a very nice candidate for something similiar to Highlander's soft cancel into Caber Toss so long as it doesn't guarrantee demon's embrace as that would be very abusable.

Knight_Raime
02-20-2018, 08:01 AM
I controversially agree with this controversial opinion. May the controversial forum Gods controversially have mercy on my controversial soul.


controversial.

:)


oh vakris you so fanny.

There's definitely a lot of feedback to chew on in this thread. Thank you for sharing, Knight_Raime. I also see that their are some people that share and support your opinions so I will be sure to get this to the team so they can look over everything that is being said in here!



oh gosh you don't need to. but thank you. I mainly just like to hear myself talk d:

Knight_Raime
02-20-2018, 08:06 AM
I am not saying you are wrong. I am just curious, how would you help some of the heroes that notoriously strugle with initiating offense, say shugoki or lawbringer?

Goki in my opinion is a mess of a kit and needs a rework as big as kensei's if not more. I honestly don't know what I could suggest to make his current kit better.

Lawbringer needs shove on block to be gone. I see him as a heavy counter attacker. If his parry counters didn't feed into chains they should.
He already has an unblockable from neutral in the way of his manual shove. But it's slow and doesn't give anything I don't think.

hmm. You know how some classes have superior block dashes? And how shield based classes have sort of a "deflect" where if you meet their attack with yours that you get a special thing? Like with conq it's deflected off and he gets a heavy as an example. I think lawbringer should get something along the lines of those 2 mechanics.

Arekonator
02-20-2018, 08:50 AM
Yeah, its a cool mechanic, but not exactly a offensive tool, which allows him to even touch turtling oponent.
While he technicaly does have openers, they are incredibly slow to the point being absolutely unusable in 1v1 (700ms shove, 1000ms long arm) and speeding them up would make him too much of terror in team modes (where he is already considered top tier by some).
Additionally, shove doesnt indeed guarantee anything as long as you are willing to roll away every time after being shoved. Which just makes it annoying, lame and boring. Also that makes his blockshove somewhat tolerable, which in turn makes it even more frustrating. I suppose it could be tuned by making shove behave diferently based on how it was initiated, but that would make it counterintuitive. That leaves us with some soft feint options. Or maybe allow him to initiate shove from heavy even when it gets blocked (like nobushi)?
And then there is also issue how to make him unique.

I might compile my thoughts on him into dedicated thread eventualy...

BTTrinity
02-20-2018, 02:15 PM
I uh.... hm... I normally would disagree with this but as I've played throughout season 5 Im starting to realize 4v4's are nothing but unblockable spam-fests right now and this game really doesnt need any more UB attacks.

Edit: yeah, making defensive play obsolete probably isnt a good option either.

Jiblet2017
02-20-2018, 04:55 PM
I remember beta where a player could win 1v4's with solid defensive play and revenge management. Since then revenge was beefed (which is fine) and more unblockables were added. Now winning anything more than a 1v2 is very unlikely if the opponents have unblockables.

Do they have a counter? Yes - movement and to some extent parrying. However, bashes cannot be parried and even movement comes with the associated risk of getting GB'd.

There was a post Tundra did about avoiding the faster, harder, more unblockable direction the game seems to moving in (especially in 4's) and I tend to agree. The challenge seems to be forcing reactions in duels while avoiding spams in groupfights.

Knight_Raime
02-20-2018, 11:34 PM
Yeah, its a cool mechanic, but not exactly a offensive tool, which allows him to even touch turtling oponent.
While he technicaly does have openers, they are incredibly slow to the point being absolutely unusable in 1v1 (700ms shove, 1000ms long arm) and speeding them up would make him too much of terror in team modes (where he is already considered top tier by some).
Additionally, shove doesnt indeed guarantee anything as long as you are willing to roll away every time after being shoved. Which just makes it annoying, lame and boring. Also that makes his blockshove somewhat tolerable, which in turn makes it even more frustrating. I suppose it could be tuned by making shove behave diferently based on how it was initiated, but that would make it counterintuitive. That leaves us with some soft feint options. Or maybe allow him to initiate shove from heavy even when it gets blocked (like nobushi)?
And then there is also issue how to make him unique.

I might compile my thoughts on him into dedicated thread eventualy...

Unfortunately I don't really see how we can make LB more offensive without taking his identity away. Like conq it was easy because he already had full block and his various bashes. Those just needed updating. But LB seems entirely built around waiting to counter attack. His current kit sans shove on block is "fine" if the opponent plays along. I would really love seeing some LB feedback.

As for goki the only thing I actually WANT from his rework is forcing his armor to only happen when goki goes to attack. I don't want it to be a passive thing. Highlander and zerker (technically kensei now) all use armor in an offensive matter and it works well. If they want to make him "the trading guy" that's fine (though not my cup of tea.) He just shouldn't have such power passively. And good guard break attempts make that advantage irrelevant.

Knight_Raime
02-20-2018, 11:35 PM
I uh.... hm... I normally would disagree with this but as I've played throughout season 5 Im starting to realize 4v4's are nothing but unblockable spam-fests right now and this game really doesnt need any more UB attacks.

Edit: yeah, making defensive play obsolete probably isnt a good option either.

Well i'm not really advocating against having more UB's in the game. I just am saying there really shouldn't be anymore easy access ones. I.E spammable ones from neutral like conq's shield bash.

Knight_Raime
02-20-2018, 11:38 PM
I remember beta where a player could win 1v4's with solid defensive play and revenge management. Since then revenge was beefed (which is fine) and more unblockables were added. Now winning anything more than a 1v2 is very unlikely if the opponents have unblockables.

Do they have a counter? Yes - movement and to some extent parrying. However, bashes cannot be parried and even movement comes with the associated risk of getting GB'd.

There was a post Tundra did about avoiding the faster, harder, more unblockable direction the game seems to moving in (especially in 4's) and I tend to agree. The challenge seems to be forcing reactions in duels while avoiding spams in groupfights.

Revenge is indeed a lot more relied upon now. It seems the best way to handle most situations of UB spam is to pop revenge to shove people away and then use that time to deal with the spammers. I watch a guy on YT call Faraam and he manages to handle being ganked quite well with revenge on several heros. It's unfortunate that ganking is so prevalent that revenge is more of a bandaid rather than a mechanic with depth. But imo until there are things that actively discourage ganking that's not going to change. There isn't anything inherently wrong with ganking but it's the clear solution and nothing to contest it.