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View Full Version : Pedals, Twisties, and Accuracy



Pirschjaeger
07-29-2005, 11:59 PM
Up until October of last year I flew regularly. I used the 3D Gold and X45 throttle together. I use to have good aim and was able to hit just about anything I wanted. 500 to 750 was my best range.

The IL-2 series had advanced to the point that my pc needed replacing. Recently I bought a new pc and use the Cyborg Evo. It's basically the same as the 3D Gold but ergonomically different.

After a few weeks, getting used to the new FM, my flying skills have recovered. On the other hand, my aim is bad. I know where I have to aim but cannot control the rudder. It seems to cause the plane to work like a yoyo, but back and forth.

I use pitch, yaw, and roll to bring the target into a firing solution. I then use the rudder for fine aiming. I have tried different stick settings (thx Tully) and played with the deadband but nothing has improved.

I'm thinking that a twisty is simply the wrong way to go; they are just too sensitive. The movement range is much too short in regards to having good control over the rudder. I was also thinking the best solution is to use a set of pedals.

Can anyone offer some advice on this? It's frustrating to know how to do something and not be able to do it.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
07-29-2005, 11:59 PM
Up until October of last year I flew regularly. I used the 3D Gold and X45 throttle together. I use to have good aim and was able to hit just about anything I wanted. 500 to 750 was my best range.

The IL-2 series had advanced to the point that my pc needed replacing. Recently I bought a new pc and use the Cyborg Evo. It's basically the same as the 3D Gold but ergonomically different.

After a few weeks, getting used to the new FM, my flying skills have recovered. On the other hand, my aim is bad. I know where I have to aim but cannot control the rudder. It seems to cause the plane to work like a yoyo, but back and forth.

I use pitch, yaw, and roll to bring the target into a firing solution. I then use the rudder for fine aiming. I have tried different stick settings (thx Tully) and played with the deadband but nothing has improved.

I'm thinking that a twisty is simply the wrong way to go; they are just too sensitive. The movement range is much too short in regards to having good control over the rudder. I was also thinking the best solution is to use a set of pedals.

Can anyone offer some advice on this? It's frustrating to know how to do something and not be able to do it.

Fritz

Fehler
07-30-2005, 12:05 AM
Without a doubt, rudder pedals are the way to go, and with the inertia modelling in 4.01, I feel that they are almost manditory to possess.

I used a twisty stick a long time ago (Dont remember the brand) and it just felt wrong, so I opted to buy a set of pedals to go with my X-45. The pedals are wired in to replace the rocker switch which I also felt was totally wrong, but more controllable than a twist stick.

If you decide on pedals, I am sure you will not go back! They offer more precise movement over anything else.

RocketRobin__
07-30-2005, 12:44 AM
I use Saito X52s for stick and throttle, but my secret weapons are my Hofmann Simpeds.
Simpeds have a Hall effect direction sensor, float on shielded ball bearings, are composed of high fiber plastics and have optional linear/logarithmic/quadratic input functions. They are truly the most accurate, user friendly and robust rudder pedals ever made. All in all, they are fine examples of high quality engineering.
Unfortunately, I think Dieter Hofmann quit producing them. IMO, the 'never wear out' part of his design specification limited his market base and came back to bite him in the *** :-/
If you can find a set of used Simpeds, or if Hofmann ever makes another production run, don't hesitate to buy them.

Pirschjaeger
07-30-2005, 07:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fehler:
Without a doubt, rudder pedals are the way to go, and with the inertia modelling in 4.01, I feel that they are almost manditory to possess.

I used a twisty stick a long time ago (Dont remember the brand) and it just felt wrong, so I opted to buy a set of pedals to go with my X-45. The pedals are wired in to replace the rocker switch which I also felt was totally wrong, but more controllable than a twist stick.

If you decide on pedals, I am sure you will not go back! They offer more precise movement over anything else. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had the X45 but there were two major problems.

1) the joystick is too small. I could barely fit my hand inside it. At first, I removed the pinky trigger to make more room, but it wasn't enough.

2) the handle on the throttle was too small also. I couldn't use the rocker switch as my fingers were crammed together.

I guess pedals will be the final solution.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
07-30-2005, 07:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketRobin__:
I use Saito X52s for stick and throttle, but my secret weapons are my Hofmann Simpeds.
Simpeds have a Hall effect direction sensor, float on shielded ball bearings, are composed of high fiber plastics and have optional linear/logarithmic/quadratic input functions. They are truly the most accurate, user friendly and robust rudder pedals ever made. All in all, they are fine examples of high quality engineering.
Unfortunately, I think Dieter Hofmann quit producing them. IMO, the 'never wear out' part of his design specification limited his market base and came back to bite him in the *** :-/
If you can find a set of used Simpeds, or if Hofmann ever makes another production run, don't hesitate to buy them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt I will find them here(China) but from your post they would be my first choice.

Did you ever consider getting into advertising? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

Lucius_Esox
07-30-2005, 08:06 AM
I know I am in a minority here but I still use a FF2 without pedals. Am sorta used to the the FM now and can honestly say I dont have too much of a prob.

I am constantly using rudder (twisting the stick) and find that as long as I keep hold of it, i.e. feel exactly where the rudder is I dont get the yawing associated with completely letting go,,

Much harder to explain than to do btw http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As I said I know a lot of people on here swear by rudder pedals (I actually own a set of CH pros) but it's just different flying styles really I suppose,,, I do OK online btw.

Pirschjaeger
07-30-2005, 08:11 AM
Maybe there's something I should have mentioned. I fly the early 109's and the 190A4 the most. Come to think of it, I have more trouble with the 190 than the 109. I think I'll try different planes and see what happens.

Just a thought.

Fritz

han freak solo
07-30-2005, 08:18 AM
I was "dealing" with the twisty after 4.01 until I started flyin' the Bf-109 again. That sealed it. I bought a set of CH pedals ASAP.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"I'm thinking that a twisty is simply the wrong way to go; they are just too sensitive. The movement range is much too short in regards to having good control over the rudder. I was also thinking the best solution is to use a set of pedals." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what I think, too. When you get some pedals come back and ask what profiles we are using. My pedals were too sensitive for me out of the box.

EvanWaters
07-30-2005, 09:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
I had the X45 but there were two major problems.

1) the joystick is too small. I could barely fit my hand inside it. At first, I removed the pinky trigger to make more room, but it wasn't enough.

2) the handle on the throttle was too small also. I couldn't use the rocker switch as my fingers were crammed together.

I guess pedals will be the final solution.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those must be some big-a$$ hands. Especially considering you can use your index finger for fire button C, and your long finger as a trigger finger.(Many use the long finger as trigger finger with pistols in RL as well)

Wrt the throttle, fingers can also be moved around, I usually kept 2-3 fingers on the rocker button. (If I try to fit 4 fingers around the handle, it's cramped....but I see no need for that.) I bought me a set of pedals, so the rocker pedal is of no use to me now.

If your hands are truly too big for the X45 after trying this, I can do nothing but bow in admiration for your lumberjack paws.

Pirschjaeger
07-30-2005, 09:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EvanWaters:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
I had the X45 but there were two major problems.

1) the joystick is too small. I could barely fit my hand inside it. At first, I removed the pinky trigger to make more room, but it wasn't enough.

2) the handle on the throttle was too small also. I couldn't use the rocker switch as my fingers were crammed together.

I guess pedals will be the final solution.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those must be some big-a$$ hands. Especially considering you can use your index finger for fire button C, and your long finger as a trigger finger.(Many use the long finger as trigger finger with pistols in RL as well)

Wrt the throttle, fingers can also be moved around, I usually kept 2-3 fingers on the rocker button. (If I try to fit 4 fingers around the handle, it's cramped....but I see no need for that.) I bought me a set of pedals, so the rocker pedal is of no use to me now.

If your hands are truly too big for the X45 after trying this, I can do nothing but bow in admiration for your lumberjack paws. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought of cutting the handguard off but I can't remember why I change my mind. I ended up giving the stick to a friend. I don't think my hands are so big, maybe just wide I guess.

The first time I used the X45 was online. I had my hand outside of the guard until I saw the enemy. As soon as I put my hand in the guard I heard machine guns. I started scissoring violently but couldn't see my enemy anywhere. Then when the shooting stopped I got a message "Weapon is out of ammo". I hated that dam pinki trigger. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

As for the throttle, I really miss the two dials. I had the elevator trim on one and the prop pitch on the other. That was nice.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
07-30-2005, 09:30 AM
I just tested different planes. I noticed we have a new spit. Mk2 and Mk4? I think that's what they were. This plane was extremely stable and it was easy to hit anything. I see why the spit pilots love their planes.

Tried the Yak9. Nice plane but not as stable as the spit.

Tried the earliest P-51, total piece of ****. It was worse than the 190 for stability.

Tried the La5. It about the same as the Yak.

Tried the P-47. Think I'll leave those for Cajun.

So, maybe I should fly the worst plane,early P-51, until I get used to it's sh1t rudder. Then everything else will be a piece of cake.

Fritz

ytareh
07-30-2005, 11:08 AM
Did you mean that you used shoot at 750m ?Isnt that VERY far?Dont the experts say get in REAL close?Maybe you mean feet although your name sounds european!

Stigler_9_JG52
07-30-2005, 11:20 AM
Just wean yourself off that twisty toy, no matter what it takes.

You need pedals.

Pirschjaeger
07-30-2005, 11:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ytareh:
Did you mean that you used shoot at 750m ?Isnt that VERY far?Dont the experts say get in REAL close?Maybe you mean feet although your name sounds european! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I know it's odd, but I used to use deflection shots up to 750m. After that it was a little harder to hit something. I also can't hit anything up close. My best shot was a single Mk108 at about 1000m. We were training, me K4, him Dora. He decided he should dive to get away as I was closing in. I followed, we were going straight down. Lined him up just right and pulled one round.

My first kill online was a burst from 800m. I couldn't catch a 190A5. He was on my partners 6. I told my partner to turn. As soon as the 190 turned I took off his wing.

I have never been able to hit a plane upclose unless he turns. Then I can choose where to hit him. But I do well at great distances. That's why the bar in the 190 never bothered me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BTW, the best part of getting a kill from 700m+ is that it takes a while for them to figure out who hit them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

NonWonderDog
07-30-2005, 11:45 AM
I have largish hands. I wear size XL gloves.

The X45 dwarfed my hands when I tried it in the store. It was so big as to be unwieldy. I'm sure part of that is just from being used to my Force Feedback Pro, but I can't even imagine anyone complaining that an X45 is too small. Did you adjust the little handrest thingy at the bottom?

Pirschjaeger
07-30-2005, 12:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
I have largish hands. I wear size XL gloves.

The X45 dwarfed my hands when I tried it in the store. It was so big as to be unwieldy. I'm sure part of that is just from being used to my Force Feedback Pro, but I can't even imagine anyone complaining that an X45 is too small. Did you adjust the little handrest thingy at the bottom? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The X45 isn't adjustable. I have always used the 3D Gold or the Evo, they are adjustable. The handrest is adjusted all the way to the bottom. It's perfect. Just need pedals I guess.

Fritz

TacticalYak3
07-30-2005, 09:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
I know I am in a minority here but I still use a FF2 without pedals. Am sorta used to the the FM now and can honestly say I dont have too much of a prob.

I am constantly using rudder (twisting the stick) and find that as long as I keep hold of it, i.e. feel exactly where the rudder is I dont get the yawing associated with completely letting go,,

Much harder to explain than to do btw http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As I said I know a lot of people on here swear by rudder pedals (I actually own a set of CH pros) but it's just different flying styles really I suppose,,, I do OK online btw. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not alone mate. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Still using my MS Sidewinder 2 FF stick (3 years old now) and my TIR3Pro. While I won't argue that pedals are superior, I have adjusted to the new flight model and have resumed my success with obtaining kills.

Now if someone like CH or Saitek produced a good FF stick as MS did I would be first in line. Eventually my MS will die, or perhaps BOB will inspire me, to get a more "immersive" setup and that Vector Expansion thingy.

TS!

Pirschjaeger
07-30-2005, 10:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TacticalYak3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
I know I am in a minority here but I still use a FF2 without pedals. Am sorta used to the the FM now and can honestly say I dont have too much of a prob.

I am constantly using rudder (twisting the stick) and find that as long as I keep hold of it, i.e. feel exactly where the rudder is I dont get the yawing associated with completely letting go,,

Much harder to explain than to do btw http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As I said I know a lot of people on here swear by rudder pedals (I actually own a set of CH pros) but it's just different flying styles really I suppose,,, I do OK online btw. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not alone mate. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Still using my MS Sidewinder 2 FF stick (3 years old now) and my TIR3Pro. While I won't argue that pedals are superior, I have adjusted to the new flight model and have resumed my success with obtaining kills.

Now if someone like CH or Saitek produced a good FF stick as MS did I would be first in line. Eventually my MS will die, or perhaps BOB will inspire me, to get a more "immersive" setup and that Vector Expansion thingy.

TS! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Three years? That's much better than the 3D Gold. I have problems with these in a very short time. I broke the trigger off on one one the 2nd day. Normally, the z axis doesn't last very long. The longest I got from a 3D is about 6 months. I've never gotten use to using hatswitches either. I do alright now but I use it along with the key board.

Fritz

Lucius_Esox
07-31-2005, 04:14 AM
My FF2 is about the same age and is starting to get a bit tired now as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

For me it's abit like the TIr thing, I resisted that for a long time, wouldn't go back now!!

Maybe I'm just tight, or skint,,,, probably both http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif