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View Full Version : The Nature of Mix-Ups and "High-Level Play"



Archo-Vax
02-11-2018, 10:49 PM
So, you're telling me that constantly doing some variation of "Light, Heavy-Feint, Guard-Break", over and over again, while abusing the flicker bug and generally behaving in a manner that is incongruous with the very Hero you're playing as is... "skillful"?

Never mind that the inevitable result is only going to further solidify the Defensive Meta, and drive more and more players into abusing vortex-spam and idiotically fast Light Attacks. Never mind that it always, regardless of the players' actual intent, always conveys a cocky, contemptuous, "I'm better than you, and you're a sorry excuse for human garbage", and (most importantly) toxic message when you beat someone with said tactics. Never mind that it does nothing to help the opponent improve and only creates situations where the person you beat feels cheated instead of motivated.

No, fine. Sure. Call it "skill". We'll see how well that plays out.

Knight_Raime
02-11-2018, 10:53 PM
/: we been over this mann.

Also flicker was fixed. if you have a flicker happen now it's due to latency issues. not a bug.
rest is very very very toxic and I won't talk on.

The game by nature is very simple. light heavy feint GB mechanically is not difficult.
the "high level play" is entirely mind games. Which is about conditioning your opponent on one thing and then switching it up.
If the player can see through this though and still react properly you didn't condition him. Or if the guy can just react in time without thinking then it's not a good/proper mix up.

Archo-Vax
02-11-2018, 11:18 PM
/: we been over this mann.

Also flicker was fixed. if you have a flicker happen now it's due to latency issues. not a bug.
rest is very very very toxic and I won't talk on.

The game by nature is very simple. light heavy feint GB mechanically is not difficult.
the "high level play" is entirely mind games. Which is about conditioning your opponent on one thing and then switching it up.
If the player can see through this though and still react properly you didn't condition him. Or if the guy can just react in time without thinking then it's not a good/proper mix up.

I don't believe we've "been over this". Everything you said on the matter was not corroborated by any of my experiences in-game.

ChampionRuby50g
02-12-2018, 12:16 AM
What do you define “skill” to be in this game? I feel I would better understand where you are coming from if I knew what you thought true skill was, as you obviously don’t agree with what a lot of people call skill in this game.

Also not sure what you mean by “see how well that plays out”. Shouldn’t we have plenty of evidence already, in fact a whole years worth of evidence as to how that plays out?

But honestly, when you said “Never mind that it always, regardless of the players' actual intent, always conveys a cocky, contemptuous, "I'm better than you, and you're a sorry excuse for human garbage",” makes me think it’s something going on with you. I’ve never thought that of another play because of the way they play, only if the player actual conveys that attitude with “Thanks!” spam, emote spam or flat out sending a message been cocky. SB spam and light attack spam is possible to deal with. I can do it on my Xbox with less than average internet and when I beat a light spamming PK it feels good, because I could react well enough to counter that. Not that this PK was been a cocky little **** and trying to degrade me as a human.

Archo-Vax
02-12-2018, 12:44 AM
What do you define “skill” to be in this game? I feel I would better understand where you are coming from if I knew what you thought true skill was, as you obviously don’t agree with what a lot of people call skill in this game.

Also not sure what you mean by “see how well that plays out”. Shouldn’t we have plenty of evidence already, in fact a whole years worth of evidence as to how that plays out?

But honestly, when you said “Never mind that it always, regardless of the players' actual intent, always conveys a cocky, contemptuous, "I'm better than you, and you're a sorry excuse for human garbage",” makes me think it’s something going on with you. I’ve never thought that of another play because of the way they play, only if the player actual conveys that attitude with “Thanks!” spam, emote spam or flat out sending a message been cocky. SB spam and light attack spam is possible to deal with. I can do it on my Xbox with less than average internet and when I beat a light spamming PK it feels good, because I could react well enough to counter that. Not that this PK was been a cocky little **** and trying to degrade me as a human.

I don't understand your view, either. Raiders and Gladiators, especially given their play style, always produce a sort of humiliation factor. It happens with every Hero, but Raiders and Gladiators especially. "Ooh, I'm going to jab at you with a Light after spinning my guard position in a circle, then I'll do a Heavy, but feint it and do another Light or a Stun Tap or a Toe-Stab!!! Look at me, I'm so skilled! LOL XD". That's the kind of attitude I get from people who use mix-ups every other millisecond.

Calling it "skill" is wrong for the same reason why calling Dark Souls "hard" is wrong. The supposed "difficulty" in Dark Souls is directly analogous to the following situation: a man wakes up one morning, doesn't bother to get dressed, sprints down the street, then stops in front of the first person he sees. A stares at them for a solid minute, before (without any warning or introduction) sucker punches them in the jaw. He leans over their unmoving body and screams, "ha ha! You fool! I have outwitted you, once again! Get outplayed BOI!". The person who got punched, in that metaphor, represents the player, by the way.

Too me, the same fallacy exists when calling "mix-ups" skillful.

Vakris_One
02-12-2018, 01:01 AM
I don't understand your view, either. Raiders and Gladiators, especially given their play style, always produce a sort of humiliation factor. It happens with every Hero, but Raiders and Gladiators especially. "Ooh, I'm going to jab at you with a Light after spinning my guard position in a circle, then I'll do a Heavy, but feint it and do another Light or a Stun Tap or a Toe-Stab!!! Look at me, I'm so skilled! LOL XD". That's the kind of attitude I get from people who use mix-ups every other millisecond.

Calling it "skill" is wrong for the same reason why calling Dark Souls "hard" is wrong. The supposed "difficulty" in Dark Souls is directly analogous to the following situation: a man wakes up one morning, doesn't bother to get dressed, sprints down the street, then stops in front of the first person he sees. A stares at them for a solid minute, before (without any warning or introduction) sucker punches them in the jaw. He leans over their unmoving body and screams, "ha ha! You fool! I have outwitted you, once again! Get outplayed BOI!". The person who got punched, in that metaphor, represents the player, by the way.

Too me, the same fallacy exists when calling "mix-ups" skillful.
You're interpreting the way the character is designed as the player inherently being arrogant and showing you max disrespect but that's not always the case. Just because the Glad or the Centurion for example have a certain inherent cockiness built into their design doesn't mean the player's intention is to be cocky or humiliating. Flicking through the guard stances is a thing that assassin players do because their guard decays after a while. By flicking it you can get it to stay in the position you wish to guard against while giving only a very brief window of opportunity for your opponent to sneak a hit in. It's also used as a mind game to mess with the opponent. Nothing about it inherently implies that your opponent is mocking you, they're just playing the game.

David_gorda
02-12-2018, 01:01 AM
Use mixups the right way takes skill, huge difference fighting a Skilled kensai or a Noob kensai. Light spam though is easy mode, almost anyone can be above average only spamming lights with a pk or aramusha. Wish for honor was more intresting and skillbased classes like kensai instead Of the superfast attacks and unblockables we have now from the dlc classes.

bob333e
02-12-2018, 01:19 AM
I could correlate the setting of For Honor with that of Dark Souls, within the scope of the issue being addressed in your post.

In both games, skill is subjective. You could be skilled at specific cheese mechanics, or skilled at using a specific weapon/hero really well. Both are instances of skill.

How do we measure skill? we don't. The community is a fcuk-all factor to determining what real skill is, in an online multiplayer setting. Because each of us has a specific perspective of what we individually perceive as 'skilled'.

To me, personally, my opponent falls outside the borders of being 'skilled', and into cheesy cheapness territory, when their said skillset incorporates high doses of guaranteed hits, free damage, or too much damage. They are crutches to make up for something that would otherwise present itself as a gaping hole in their 'skillset'. To make up for that emptiness quickly, without having to go through the chore and tedious grind, they resort to cheesy cheapness. Hence me determining their 'lack of skill'.

In the scope of For Honor, the DLC heroes, in general, and as the situation is these days with hero balancing being over the edge across the roster, provide easier and faster ways to dish out damage quickly to your opponent. When you're making something easy that would rather require effort under normal circumstances, that, to me, is cheesing. The hero is inherently designed in such a way, to encourage you to dish out damage more quickly.

I could count the number of times I've met skilled Centurions, Gladiators or Shamans, with my fingers. They are actually rare, when they use the moveset itself, rather than what's easier to do to land free hits on my opponent. In your example stated in the reply to ChampionRuby, the naked man used visual distraction to "fool his opponent". In For Honor's setting, the DLC heroes use an over-abundance of faster attacks, faster unblockables, and faster feints to "fool their opponents".

You're not exactly "fooling your opponent" per-se; rather, you're resorting to a cheesy tactic, taking something away from their attention and focus, to make it easier on yourself to land the hit and finally laugh in their face.

The man who took the hit in your example, is a certain type of player; the naked man who threw the punch, is another certain type of player. Inherently, both are to blame. The latter for resorting to cheesy visual distraction to land the punch, the former for being simply misinformed of what types of cheesy tactics could exist in the given situation he is in.

In Dark Souls, you don't expect a full Havel build with regen and a lightning-buffed Dark Sword, pointing down at you, to behave honorably in a duel. You go whack at the mfker with everything you got, don't hold back, drink estus if he does. You may either win or lose. But should you lose, you didn't lose to skill. That is your reassuring thought. You lost to cheese. And cheese doesn't matter. Because it doesn't outline who's better than the other. It just denotes a certain broken mechanic (or combination of mechanics) in the game that can be freely used in any given setting. It's like a megaphone or a fluorescent marker.

Should you win, you won through a tedious chore that it no longer yields satisfaction (as pointed out in your previous thread). It was an annoyance to deal with and not worth the victory. It was ultimately a waste of your time and even when you won, you learned nothing.

Our job is to expect the cheese and be prepared for it. Expect the worst. Only after you've fought someone, should you determine what skill level they're at. Should you observe that your opponent has a rather high number of crutch factors in his 'skillset', you can rest assured: he's not as skilled as you are. Losing shouldn't matter. It was all a waste of time. Throw the encounter behind you and move on.

I've made many a friend who added me and sought communication simply because I did not resort to vortex while I duelled them. Had they automatically laughed me out of the equation as a 'cheesy vortex spammer' the moment they saw my hero in the VS screen, we wouldn't have become pals, two normal people just having fun in a darn videogame together.

I'll still insist that you're burnt out and you need a break. As mentioned in the previous thread. Take like a week.

SangLong524
02-12-2018, 02:12 AM
All the techniques and skills can be learned and mastered by everyone, unless you are crippled somehow mentally or physically.
With that's said, all that is left is mostly uncontrollable factors, connection and mind game. The latter can't be helped, if you lose, then you are just not as good. Make peace with it and better yourself. It's good to develop better minds, better reflex and so on, not degenerate. It's harsh but...... For the greater good ;)

Jiblet2017
02-12-2018, 05:26 AM
some characters are definitely easier than others. Some players are also more arrogant than others. however using mixups or utilizing a characters kit to the maximum is certainly not inherently arrogant or disrespectful. In fact some of the most fun I have in this game is when I have a good match-up against a skilled player utilizing mindgames/mixups. I would much rather see mixups/feints than UB/bash spam (in 4's) and 400ms attack spam in duels (though it is still react-able). It is just personally more enjoyable for me.

If you feel yourself taking mixups or play styles personally(except ledging off of a parry- that is the worst:p) I would recommend taking a break. I did during pre-nerf cent in season 2 (the quasi-infinite wall stun) and it made the game much more enjoyable for me. Now I say Gl, Hf before ever match and laugh it off when i get worked (which I sill do even though I have been playing since CB).

Knight_Raime
02-12-2018, 06:54 AM
I don't believe we've "been over this". Everything you said on the matter was not corroborated by any of my experiences in-game.

you don't remember the giant post you made over a month back where I supposedly convinced you for honor wasn't the game for you anymore?
and I don't know what you mean by the rest of this reply.

Archo-Vax
02-12-2018, 04:06 PM
you don't remember the giant post you made over a month back where I supposedly convinced you for honor wasn't the game for you anymore?
and I don't know what you mean by the rest of this reply.

Yes, I remember that. You were also the one to steer me towards giving it another go. Since, then, my experiences in Duels have not corroborated any of your "explanations".

Trenk2009
02-12-2018, 06:37 PM
So, you're telling me that constantly doing some variation of "Light, Heavy-Feint, Guard-Break", over and over again, while abusing the flicker bug and generally behaving in a manner that is incongruous with the very Hero you're playing as is... "skillful"?

Never mind that the inevitable result is only going to further solidify the Defensive Meta, and drive more and more players into abusing vortex-spam and idiotically fast Light Attacks. Never mind that it always, regardless of the players' actual intent, always conveys a cocky, contemptuous, "I'm better than you, and you're a sorry excuse for human garbage", and (most importantly) toxic message when you beat someone with said tactics. Never mind that it does nothing to help the opponent improve and only creates situations where the person you beat feels cheated instead of motivated.

No, fine. Sure. Call it "skill". We'll see how well that plays out.

1) Flicker is non-existent in the game. The **** are you talking about.

2) Highlevel play consist of mind game. Being the less predicatable possible to mess up with your opponent; and conditionning him to do so. But no, it is not a variation of "light heavy feint and gb". It's much more than that, more often than not I have to start with a heavy for instance if i feel like he will try to light parry, or I can also go backward to whiff my light and surprise my opponent with trading or parrying, I can light + heavy feint and then light but more often than not at high level i need to feint the heavy into another heavy. Some times I even have to heavy feint and then heavy on my first strike just to go trough defense.
And yes that is skill. Managing to being unpredictable while predicting correctly how your opponent would react is high-end skill. You want to get a light parry ? Follow 2 or 3 gbs in a row to bait your opponent. Your opponent gb u twice in a row ? Read forward and react with a heavy instead of a light. You want your opponent to let his guard down ? harrass him with very basic strikes for a long enough time to make him panic and use his most obvious moves (orochi's top light, warden top light, etc ...).
It's much more complex and intricate than just trying different variations until one works well.It's a atter of constant adaptation and predictions.

Knight_Raime
02-12-2018, 08:43 PM
Yes, I remember that. You were also the one to steer me towards giving it another go. Since, then, my experiences in Duels have not corroborated any of your "explanations".

So if i'm to understand the situation you've been dueling recently and people have been spamming something against you and being derogatory?
Can you give me a few examples of what they were using against you?

Archo-Vax
02-12-2018, 10:13 PM
So if i'm to understand the situation you've been dueling recently and people have been spamming something against you and being derogatory?
Can you give me a few examples of what they were using against you?

It's not that any of them were spamming. It's that I see the various uses of mix-ups that they implement, and I simply cannot imagine any of it requiring much skill or effort. The only "mind-game" I've seen from anyone, thus far, has been people assuming that I'll fall for the various tricks and logistical loopholes present in their Heroes, even though I actually won't because I've been playing this game for ages, and have pretty much seen every type of play on Xbox.

Archo-Vax
02-12-2018, 10:14 PM
1) Flicker is non-existent in the game. The **** are you talking about.

2) Highlevel play consist of mind game. Being the less predicatable possible to mess up with your opponent; and conditionning him to do so. But no, it is not a variation of "light heavy feint and gb". It's much more than that, more often than not I have to start with a heavy for instance if i feel like he will try to light parry, or I can also go backward to whiff my light and surprise my opponent with trading or parrying, I can light + heavy feint and then light but more often than not at high level i need to feint the heavy into another heavy. Some times I even have to heavy feint and then heavy on my first strike just to go trough defense.
And yes that is skill. Managing to being unpredictable while predicting correctly how your opponent would react is high-end skill. You want to get a light parry ? Follow 2 or 3 gbs in a row to bait your opponent. Your opponent gb u twice in a row ? Read forward and react with a heavy instead of a light. You want your opponent to let his guard down ? harrass him with very basic strikes for a long enough time to make him panic and use his most obvious moves (orochi's top light, warden top light, etc ...).
It's much more complex and intricate than just trying different variations until one works well.It's a atter of constant adaptation and predictions.

Has the flicker bug been fixed on Xbox One, though? Because, to me, it seems that nothing has changed.

Knight_Raime
02-12-2018, 10:34 PM
It's not that any of them were spamming. It's that I see the various uses of mix-ups that they implement, and I simply cannot imagine any of it requiring much skill or effort. The only "mind-game" I've seen from anyone, thus far, has been people assuming that I'll fall for the various tricks and logistical loopholes present in their Heroes, even though I actually won't because I've been playing this game for ages, and have pretty much seen every type of play on Xbox.

I see.
Well I could be wrong. But I was like 90% sure in the really long post where I convinced you to go duel more that I commented on skill, what kinds of skills are. and what skill is being highlighted with mix ups. And I believe I also stated that it's basically impossible to quantify skill in any sort of emperical fashion. If you personally don't think it's skillful that's fine. I can't tell you how to think/feel.
I just was hoping to be able to offer some more insight. Because I do enjoy your threads for the most part. and I did absolutely enjoy our duels despite you playing the hero I hate the most aha. xD

But I guess i'll just have to fall in line with everyone else here and suggest a break. Or maybe if you really do feel like you gave it the good old college try and nothings changing for you then maybe you should just walk away for good. I want lots of people playing. But not at the cost of their well being and from your past few threads it really seems to be taking a toll on you. But that's just my impression from looking on the outside in. I don't know you well enough as a person to make any actual solid claims.

I'm sorry you're not having fun man. really I am.

EDIT: and yes flicker has been fixed on xbox. As I mentioned prior to this response flicker can still appear in matches with latency issues. But as far as I know they fixed it for good.