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View Full Version : Initial thoughts on the 3 reworks.



Knight_Raime
02-11-2018, 07:38 PM
Keep in mind I haven't actually played with them myself. But i've read a lot about them and opinions from people who are better than me and have actually played with them.
Overall i'm pretty content with the changes made for launch of season 5. But that's not to say I think everything was done well. But lets start with the star of the show. The one rework that, without question, is the best touch up they've done for any hero. Kensei.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan oh man do I love what they've done. They absolutely nailed his rework. Not just on how it fits into his design thematically but it actually freaking works.
He's got an answer to basically everything just from feinting a neutral heavy:
Someone turtling? Heavy feint into pommel smack. gives free light.
Someone attempting to parry/feint bait into GB? heavy feint into pommel smack giving free light.
Someone trying to side dodge away? Heavy feint into side light.
Someone trying to dodge attack? heavy feint into side light/heavy if you feel like trading.
Someone trying to back dash/roll away? heavy feint into jumping attack.

He's got a heavy>heavy>heavy combo now that can all be feinted into these options. (sans pommel. that can only be done from the first heavy.)
and all of his feints lead into attacks that are considered by the game as being further into his combo. This isn't absolutely everything mind you but it does highlight why kensei is so great now. I can see him easily being in A tier for dueling.

Now onto the questionable rework. conq.
I want to say that I don't think anything they did was bad sans maybe the extra stamina cost for confirming a bash. But the reason I say it's questionable is because while there is a lot there for not only interesting play and overall allows him to be more aggressive while still being the defensive hero I don't truly believe anything done makes his polarizing matches any less so. I guess I can chalk that up to having too high of hopes on the reworks. None the less though I watched 2 really good players duke it out for about 40 minutes. And i'm convinced that conq is better off the way he is now. and looks fun to play. at least if you enjoy bulling people. And we all know i'm a cent main so that's basically my kink. d: The main 3 things conq gets from this update is a better headbutt that can be varied in timing and confirms more damage. Being able to combine that with his insta stamp-I mean instead shield sprint bash gives him stupid amounts of pressure. and finally he's now got really strong OOS pressure.
I don't think conq is going to be A tier. but I can see him being near the top of B tier.

Finally lets get onto the final rework. The one i'm not sure how to feel about. Zerks.
This rework is very polarizing. What I mean is. for average tier play. maybe even above average the unblockable inclusions with the 400ms uninterruptable lights is going to be savage. Basically. Players who already struggle to deal with aramusha's combo or shamans various timings are going to hate this. Which is going to give an impression that they super buffed her. But this is far from the case.

As in upper tier and top tier play virtually nothing changes for zerker. This is because the uninterruptable 400ms lights are the exact same playstyle pre rework zerker has. Same with those unblockables. In short neither thing actually opens up a turtle because these changes don't change her playstyle. Worse than that though is she lost a lot of damage. went up in stamina consumption like no bodys buisness. and lost a powerful tool of being able to option select someones light attacks with feinting a light whiff into a deflect. You can argue that the those faster lights will occasionally allow for extra damage. and you'd be right. Just as she's getting a new OOS mix up.

But neither of those things are a big enough change to impact her placement or her matchups. and worst of all. it doesn't really aid against a good turtle. So I don't know how I feel about this rework. I'm disappointed that it means basically nothing where she arguably needed to be changed the most. But it's going to at the same time bump her usage in lower tier play due to less skilled players.

Oh well. 2 out of 3 reworks hitting the nail is where I was expecting things to be anyway. I still look forward to the rest of the touch ups/re works for season 5.

S0Mi_xD
02-11-2018, 09:03 PM
Thats pretty much it ^^

Kensei = Allrounder
Conqu = Pretty good def + pressure
Berserker = made a 180 spin on the spot

bob333e
02-11-2018, 09:18 PM
Berserker = made a 180 spin on the spot

Let it RRRRIIPPPP

REEEEEEEE

UbiInsulin
02-11-2018, 09:26 PM
Thanks very much for the detailed write-up, Knight_Raime. In a few days we'll get to see what you and everyone else thinks when the reworks are in-action. It'll be interesting to revisit this thread once you get hands-on experience.

Knight_Raime
02-11-2018, 09:40 PM
Thats pretty much it ^^

Kensei = Allrounder
Conqu = Pretty good def + pressure
Berserker = made a 180 spin on the spot

I feel bad for top zerk players. but at the same time I can't deny it'll be fun for me to meme on some people at my skill bracket d:


Thanks very much for the detailed write-up, Knight_Raime. In a few days we'll get to see what you and everyone else thinks when the reworks are in-action. It'll be interesting to revisit this thread once you get hands-on experience.

I doubt my overall view will change much. I might see some nuances I missed or be able to give a better more focused opinion after a few weeks of play. But I don't believe my core opinion will change. that being kensei was a good and true rework.
conq was an okay rework that focused more on bash play which is what a lot of people didn't want.
and zerk completely missed the mark rework wise. But I suppose they did put zerk next to highlander and nobushi when explaining the differences. so it's sort of my fault to assume she was going to actually get a good do over.

Not to say I want what they did scrapped. they should deff keep this as a base and adjust numbers (least for stamina use and top heavy damage.) and potentially down the line revisit her again if she's still struggling with turtles.

bob333e
02-11-2018, 09:58 PM
I doubt my overall view will change much. I might see some nuances I missed or be able to give a better more focused opinion after a few weeks of play. But I don't believe my core opinion will change. that being kensei was a good and true rework.
conq was an okay rework that focused more on bash play which is what a lot of people didn't want.
and zerk completely missed the mark rework wise. But I suppose they did put zerk next to highlander and nobushi when explaining the differences. so it's sort of my fault to assume she was going to actually get a good do over.

Not to say I want what they did scrapped. they should deff keep this as a base and adjust numbers (least for stamina use and top heavy damage.) and potentially down the line revisit her again if she's still struggling with turtles.

Kensei was the only real nice rework. His kit definitely got buffed.

Conqueror still relies a lot on the shield bash to be able to do anything. Granted he's no longer the pro defensive Conq he was, he became more attack-type and now has a better way of exercising pressure on an OOS opponent, but he's still a shieldbash-centric character nonetheless. He gains a charged unblockable heavy but for that to land, the opponent has to be knocked down, or locked into long recovery.

Berserker, I don't know man. Became more reliant on lights, and feinted heavies into lights, which demands more stamina; and the stamina drain isn't helping at all. Add to that, the only real good damage trade is an OOS punish, but getting someone OOS while using Zerk is tougher because, no unblockable bashes from neutral (yet). And then there's the Slashing Rush stamina use. And the near-useless third followup unblockable outside of OOS punish. And that silly blue glow on the dash attack.

I highly doubt they'll revisit the kits post-season 5, they'll most likely just readjust some values and numbers. I doubt they'll spend another investment on these three heroes for mocap/animation/etc.

Also, all three now, theoretically and technically, have faster attacks. And this is before dedicated servers and lag comp. This will amount to more lightspam complaints. Especially from Zerk resorting to hyperarmored 400ms lights.

Knight_Raime
02-11-2018, 10:46 PM
Kensei was the only real nice rework. His kit definitely got buffed.

Conqueror still relies a lot on the shield bash to be able to do anything. Granted he's no longer the pro defensive Conq he was, he became more attack-type and now has a better way of exercising pressure on an OOS opponent, but he's still a shieldbash-centric character nonetheless. He gains a charged unblockable heavy but for that to land, the opponent has to be knocked down, or locked into long recovery.

Berserker, I don't know man. Became more reliant on lights, and feinted heavies into lights, which demands more stamina; and the stamina drain isn't helping at all. Add to that, the only real good damage trade is an OOS punish, but getting someone OOS while using Zerk is tougher because, no unblockable bashes from neutral (yet). And then there's the Slashing Rush stamina use. And the near-useless third followup unblockable outside of OOS punish. And that silly blue glow on the dash attack.

I highly doubt they'll revisit the kits post-season 5, they'll most likely just readjust some values and numbers. I doubt they'll spend another investment on these three heroes for mocap/animation/etc.

Also, all three now, theoretically and technically, have faster attacks. And this is before dedicated servers and lag comp. This will amount to more lightspam complaints. Especially from Zerk resorting to hyperarmored 400ms lights.

Yeah but as I said I enjoy the bash play. Looking at his kit as a whole now I like it. I think it was a good change. Just maybe not the change people wanted with conq.
I wouldn't really say zerk becomes more reliant on those lights. From all post change footage i've seen zerk basically plays the same but more stam consumption and less damage. So if anyone actually complains about "light spam" on zerk post changes i'll probably just ignore them. as they clearly didn't know what zerk play was like to begin with.

Yeah I doubt they will as well. At this point I just want some numbers adjusted on zerk. then i'd be "okay" with where she is at. I do wonder if they used any mocap for any of the other OG cast. because i've been told twice by the mods that season 5 is meant to update the whole OG roster. I mean. throwing lights out often as conq even with them being 500ms now is still not a good idea. so I doubt that will be spammed. and kensei got a pommel. no other attack speed increase as far as I know. And that thing is short reached, can't beat back dashes, and is punishable by dodge attacks/bashes.

So I guess what i'm saying is if people start an argument out like that i'm not likely to give it any weight.

David_gorda
02-11-2018, 10:48 PM
Kensei was the only real nice rework. His kit definitely got buffed.

Conqueror still relies a lot on the shield bash to be able to do anything. Granted he's no longer the pro defensive Conq he was, he became more attack-type and now has a better way of exercising pressure on an OOS opponent, but he's still a shieldbash-centric character nonetheless. He gains a charged unblockable heavy but for that to land, the opponent has to be knocked down, or locked into long recovery.

Berserker, I don't know man. Became more reliant on lights, and feinted heavies into lights, which demands more stamina; and the stamina drain isn't helping at all. Add to that, the only real good damage trade is an OOS punish, but getting someone OOS while using Zerk is tougher because, no unblockable bashes from neutral (yet). And then there's the Slashing Rush stamina use. And the near-useless third followup unblockable outside of OOS punish. And that silly blue glow on the dash attack.

I highly doubt they'll revisit the kits post-season 5, they'll most likely just readjust some values and numbers. I doubt they'll spend another investment on these three heroes for mocap/animation/etc.

Also, all three now, theoretically and technically, have faster attacks. And this is before dedicated servers and lag comp. This will amount to more lightspam complaints. Especially from Zerk resorting to hyperarmored 400ms lights. yeah agreed, kensai has a really nice kit now and Will be fun to play, going to play him when season 5 starts. Conq still Seems weak even after buff but we Will see how he turns Out. Berserker rework is weird , and that 400ms light with hyperarmor Will be used and abused.

Knight_Raime
02-11-2018, 10:50 PM
yeah agreed, kensai has a really nice kit now and Will be fun to play, going to play him when season 5 starts. Conq still Seems weak even after buff but we Will see how he turns Out. Berserker rework is weird , and that 400ms light with hyperarmor Will be used and abused.

Conq is not weak for both what I said above and what I quoted you with in other threads.
And again. if you know zerk play the 400ms lights are not a big deal. they're telegraphed by a feinted heavy.
it will be a slight reflex adjustment. People who are actually good at the game will block/parry those within a week or 2.

David_gorda
02-11-2018, 10:59 PM
Conq is not weak for both what I said above and what I quoted you with in other threads.
And again. if you know zerk play the 400ms lights are not a big deal. they're telegraphed by a feinted heavy.
it will be a slight reflex adjustment. People who are actually good at the game will block/parry those within a week or 2.
We Will see about the conq, i saw his new kit and those shieldbashes looked slow, has his damage on Heavies and light got speed and/or damage buff? 400ms attacks are almost impossible to defend against even from the best competive players that play on PC so i dont really how console players going to defend against that. anyways looking forward testing the new kits for these 3 classes.

Knight_Raime
02-11-2018, 11:04 PM
We Will see about the conq, i saw his new kit and those shieldbashes looked slow, has his damage on Heavies and light got speed and/or damage buff? 400ms attacks are almost impossible to defend against even from the best competive players that play on PC so i dont really how console players going to defend against that. anyways looking forward testing the new kits for these 3 classes.

he's got 3 bashes. the fast one. the one from full block and the sprint one. the fast one I believe is as fast or faster than warlords headbutt. it's timing can be varied as well. and it confirms more damage than warlord when he lands a headbutt. Conq's lights are 500ms now. And i'm not sure on the speeds for his side heavies but I think the top one might be a bit faster. at least when charged. I know for a fact his top heavy got a damage buff.

I'm just going to have to disagree on that. I was watching it be blocked already by a few different people. Which to me means it will be easily blockable if not parryable for pc players in a week or 2 post season 5 drop. I nearly consistently block shamans top bleed poke. and dodge her 400ms pounce/bash. Considering these fast lights come after a feinted heavy I don't imagine myself struggling to block them very much.

Mr_AwfuL
02-14-2018, 01:08 AM
I'm fine with the other changes but I think berserker drew the short stick this time, zekers needed an opener so they made the extremely slow top heavy an unblockable and halved its damage, it already gets parried 8/10 of the time, how is this supposed to open turtles? Throw in a few more penalties such as gb/light damage and less mobility in some areas/more stamina cost makes this a nerf. It seems like they want zerker to play like a try hard aramusha spamming hard feints, we all thought we were getting soft feints and an unblockable, reducing top heavy to 45 would have been fine, 3rd side heavy is useless especially with parry changes, zerker needed a buff, not a nerf.

bmason1000
02-14-2018, 01:58 AM
I'm fine with the other changes but I think berserker drew the short stick this time, zekers needed an opener so they made the extremely slow top heavy an unblockable and halved its damage, it already gets parried 8/10 of the time, how is this supposed to open turtles? Throw in a few more penalties such as gb/light damage and less mobility in some areas/more stamina cost makes this a nerf. It seems like they want zerker to play like a try hard aramusha spamming hard feints, we all thought we were getting soft feints and an unblockable, reducing top heavy to 45 would have been fine, 3rd side heavy is useless especially with parry changes, zerker needed a buff, not a nerf.
Nailed it.

High-Horse
02-14-2018, 04:43 AM
I can definitely see the potential for zerker's win ratios to go up vs average tier players like myself, but even I can see how these changes won't help much vs high skill/rep players. I really appreciate all the work they're putting in, but they're really set on this infinite thing. It just doesn't work in practice. Look at Aramusha too.

S0Mi_xD
02-14-2018, 03:59 PM
I can definitely see the potential for zerker's win ratios to go up vs average tier players like myself, but even I can see how these changes won't help much vs high skill/rep players. I really appreciate all the work they're putting in, but they're really set on this infinite thing. It just doesn't work in practice. Look at Aramusha too.

If they really wanted to go for the infinite chain they should have done it more in a way like:
Feints continue the chain and the higher the cain come the more effects the attacks become (more dmg, more speed, unblockable, unparrieable etc)

Mr_AwfuL
02-15-2018, 05:22 AM
I think they should have made the 2nd side heavy unblockable, get rid of the 3rd side heavy all together, those very long heavy chains just don't work. Top heavy 40-45 damage, 30 damage is pathetic, It's just too slow and predictable to make this a good trade-off. Zerker pretty much plays exactly the same with a major damage nerf, not cool.

E1seNw0Lf
02-15-2018, 05:27 AM
My initial thought on that was:
"No orochi rework but a nerf? You call the other changes a "compensation"? DIE in hell devs!" :mad:

Second one was:
"Kensei?, Meh, better than nothing."

S0Mi_xD
02-15-2018, 07:25 AM
I think they should have made the 2nd side heavy unblockable, get rid of the 3rd side heavy all together, those very long heavy chains just don't work. Top heavy 40-45 damage, 30 damage is pathetic, It's just too slow and predictable to make this a good trade-off. Zerker pretty much plays exactly the same with a major damage nerf, not cool.

On Bear Mauler (the 3 side heavies chain) i do disagree.
Don't remove it, just make side heavies turning into second chain bear mauler, if you hold heavy after a feint.

Mr_AwfuL
02-15-2018, 08:42 AM
On Bear Mauler (the 3 side heavies chain) i do disagree.
Don't remove it, just make side heavies turning into second chain bear mauler, if you hold heavy after a feint.

You mean feints continue the heavy chain? That would be nice, I don't think the devs gave this rework enough thought.

bmason1000
02-15-2018, 01:42 PM
If they really wanted to go for the infinite chain they should have done it more in a way like:
Feints continue the chain and the higher the cain come the more effects the attacks become (more dmg, more speed, unblockable, unparrieable etc)

Throw 1st heavy, feint or throw 2nd heavy, throw 3rd heavy? That would be incredibly good, wow.

Veerdin-Wraith
02-15-2018, 01:59 PM
My thoughts based solely on the video info we've seen:

Kensei: Much needed buff. Its not often you see the current, pre-patch Kensei played effectively because of his limited options. It'll be nice to see them get some love.

Conqueror: While he definitely needs a buff and way more options, I'm skeptical of how effective his update will be. His increased chains are great, as are his attack cancels. But whether they can fill in for the change to Superior Block and Fullblock Stance will remain to be seen, not to mention that the parry changes (which I'm actually really looking forward to) may also impact him negatively. Still, i think he'll be better post-patch than he is now. Whether it's enough or not? Only time will tell.

Berserker: I have mixed feelings about this one. 'Zerker never really felt "underpowered" to me, at least when I fight against them. But according to a lot of people, his rework might actually be a soft-nerf in a lot of ways. Right now, it's hard for me to visualise how well they'll go in gameplay.

Highlander: Another much needed buff. Although his "rework" is a lot more minor, it may just be enough to get him out of the rut he's in now. As it stands, Highlander's lack of speed and clunky playstyle make him severely underpowered against any halfway decent assassin. He's currently only really good against slower classes (of which there are very few) and during ganks.

BarbeQMichael
02-15-2018, 02:24 PM
Can anyone give a quick summary about conq rework, did they do anything about his bash? Can he still spam it till he runs out of stamina or my HL runs out of hp?

David_gorda
02-15-2018, 02:41 PM
Can anyone give a quick summary about conq rework, did they do anything about his bash? Can he still spam it till he runs out of stamina or my HL runs out of hp? he has 400 ms shieldbash now so except alot Of shieldbash spamming lol. He Will be good for tryhards that play optimal.

Veerdin-Wraith
02-15-2018, 03:09 PM
Can anyone give a quick summary about conq rework, did they do anything about his bash? Can he still spam it till he runs out of stamina or my HL runs out of hp?

They made it so he can chain both lights and heavy attacks into the bash, and vice versa, as well as lights into heavies and heavies into lights. So there will probably be a few people using the old "pain train" tactic of bash-attack-bash-attack. Although if I recall correctly, they also altered the tracking so that you can dodge it better instead of getting stuck in an infinite combo. Not sure if you can dodge out of a wallsplat, though.