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View Full Version : Warden rework please!



NHLGoldenKnight
02-10-2018, 02:08 AM
So just to make it clear, I am not talking about buff. But he needs to get a rework, asap.
In his current state, he is the weakest swordsman of them all not counting Warlord who carries a shield. It is unacceptable if Warden doesn't get priority for next round of reworks. His moveset is extremely limited and he has by far fewest tricks in his sleeve. After a year, everyone can read him easily, even when played by decent player. After a Kensei rework, Warden will become weakest Vanguard class hero. He just doesn't feel like a good swordsman.

What I believe he really needs is something to deal with dodge or side-step attacks. Kensei has them as well as Orrochi, PK, Shaman, Berserker, Gladiator etc. Dodge attacks give huge advantage to any hero.

So what I would suggest is

1. Give Warden side step (dodge) moderately fast light. Or if not, option to counter strike side attacts like Higlander can
2. More combos. One extra combo would do the trick. Something that would end with stabbing or even better half swording? Kensei has stabbing but knight with a longsword doesn't?
3. Maybe pommel strike like form of a light stun? Again, Kensei has that but Warden doesn't although longsword pommel was used in such a manner?
4. Just a little bit faster heavy strikes. He is wielding a longsword not a 100lbs metal pipe! Longsword is actually pretty fast.

I also hope that you will give us one decent longsword. Like an actual, history -inspired longsword used by knights. Simple at effective. Please, stop with weird shapes, gold and diamonds. It doesn't look good. As a matter of fact, it looks disgusting. Why can Highlander or Kensei get so many nice looking weapons but Warden can't?
I hope someone does read this. Please, show some love for the Warden. Give players more options so they stop with that ridiculous vortex. Not that they have many other options.

NHLGoldenKnight
02-19-2018, 06:01 PM
Ok, it seems that for some reason my topics/posts were not visible to others. I hope it is fixed so I would like to see what community thinks about suggested Warden rework, in case youncan actually see my topic. :)

Baggin_
02-19-2018, 06:20 PM
I would be in favor of switching his shoulder bash for a pommel strike. Giving him a soft feint out of top heavy too (in all direction including the top so he can seemlessly transition to his crushing counter if need be). Having his third heavy in a combo be unblockable too would be a nice touch. Where i'm going with this though would make him a lot like Kensei.

Cliff_001
02-19-2018, 06:20 PM
I guess, I main him as well (assuming you do to) and personally not a big fan of the reworks but I mean would help us as wardens out so sure. In terms of your suggestions, don't think they would give him a dodge attack, an extra chain wouldn't hurt and the idea of a pommel stun would be cool kind of like raiders, I think heavy attacks are fine imo. Just want something unique and hopefully they don't give us variations of apollyon's moves, they seem more specific to her as a character than to a warden.

Zordrage
02-19-2018, 06:51 PM
Yeah warden needs something extra...

i mean take away his shoulder bash and he has nothing outside of light and heavy attacks.... after playing aramusha i just cant stand playing the slow and slughis Warden that don't have any kind of special tricks outside of shoulder bash ..... Sad.. warden was my main...

Also agree Wardens Heavy attacks need a speed buff.....

Mr_M_I_D_O007
02-19-2018, 07:05 PM
i agree with you

warden is one of my favourite characters in this game but i don`t like his heavy attack

it`s too slow and easy to block so i think it`s unfair and compared to other characters it became a weak char if not the weakest already

they need to make it faster a little bit to make it playable again

NHLGoldenKnight
02-19-2018, 07:32 PM
I guess, I main him as well (assuming you do to) and personally not a big fan of the reworks but I mean would help us as wardens out so sure. In terms of your suggestions, don't think they would give him a dodge attack, an extra chain wouldn't hurt and the idea of a pommel stun would be cool kind of like raiders, I think heavy attacks are fine imo. Just want something unique and hopefully they don't give us variations of apollyon's moves, they seem more specific to her as a character than to a warden.

Yeah, I do main him or at least he is my highest rep hero. But i did start learning other sword wielding heroes as well few months back, such as Highlander, Kensei or PK. And it is really hard to go back to Warden after that. He just doesn't feel like very good swordsman when compared to other swordsmen in the game. As a matter of fact, imo, he is next to Centurion, probably worst swordsman in this game. He is lacking moves and fluidity. He just feels like a drunk brute swinging a metal pipe at imaginary opponent. Which is pitty, since longsword techniques are probably most well documented when it comes to medieval fighting.

Yoshimitsu_440
02-20-2018, 12:48 AM
Are u guys high? He just got a buff and he was never, ever even close to low tier. Wanna try low tier? Play orochi, noobs. Can't believe people complaining about warden not having enough "tools" in his kit, fml.

Zordrage
02-20-2018, 01:11 AM
Are u guys high? He just got a buff and he was never, ever even close to low tier. Wanna try low tier? Play orochi, noobs. Can't believe people complaining about warden not having enough "tools" in his kit, fml.

Lol read before coment.... We are not talking about buffs or nerfs... But gameplay changes.. Warden is utterly left behind when it comes to combat animations and combos and fluidity of combat and overal feel...

Warden feels now with all the other new chars and reworks like a left behind from beta test character...

Warden is dull and boring and slugish... And lacks the flash and some extras that everyone else has now

Right now both Kensei and Aramusha is a better version of warden when it comes to many aspects of gameplay and combat..

A warden dose not bring anything special or unique to a fight..

Cliff_001
02-20-2018, 01:16 AM
Are u guys high? He just got a buff and he was never, ever even close to low tier. Wanna try low tier? Play orochi, noobs. Can't believe people complaining about warden not having enough "tools" in his kit, fml.
Calm down, warden, Orochi, and valk are pretty much universely hailed as the worst heroes in the game. The only "buff" he got was a safe zone (something that orochi already had) and there is no reason to start calling names. Just people trying to brainstorm ideas to make a character they like better.

bob333e
02-20-2018, 01:51 AM
In his current state, he is the weakest swordsman of them all

Wrong.


After a year, everyone can read him easily, even when played by decent player.

Not necessarily. Depends on this 'decent player'.


After a Kensei rework, Warden will become weakest Vanguard class hero.

Not really.


He just doesn't feel like a good swordsman.

Wrong.


His moveset is extremely limited and he has by far fewest tricks in his sleeve.

Yes, he is rather limited. But, he's one of the original heroes who can do light > heavy and light > light > heavy, can cancel shoulderbash in various situations, can force reactions from neutral, has the deadliest CC in the game, has fair mid-range advantage, can cover up ground with his zone (which now no longer gives free GB on block), and most importantly, hits hard with his heavies, and has a 500ms top light which in most cases can interrupt opponents. Lastly, his fully-charged shoulderbash is a very good counter to a lot of things.

He's not weak. He gives off the feel that he's simple, yes. Because he's the archetype knight, and he has no overly flashy moves, and the only unblockable he has is his shoulderbash. He's not one for show; he's a straightforward fighter.

Moreover, Warden excels at counterattacking. So don't just go throwing lights and pseudo-dodge attacks like you're an Assassin. And you cannot abuse the zone because zone takes stamina. Warden is simple by design but is actually hard to master because he won't let you do something easy for free, unless you spam vortex, in which case most players worth their salt won't even let you land it.


What I believe he really needs is something to deal with dodge or side-step attacks. Kensei has them as well as Orrochi, PK, Shaman, Berserker, Gladiator etc. Dodge attacks give huge advantage to any hero.

First off, comparing a Vanguard to Assassins is weak ground for your argument.

Warden can dodge into immediate SB punish. Which can also be cancelled, to force a reaction.

Kensei can do a dodge attack (is now a heavy and no longer punishable with heavies on parry).

Raider can dodge into immediate GB/CGB.

As you can see, each Vanguard has a specialty in their dodge situation. No two Vanguards are the same.

Moreover, dodge attacks aren't a huge advantage. They're a liability, to Assassins. Assassins rely on them, and on deflects, to counter the opponent. Vanguards rely on the static block to exercise proper defense when defense is needed. So technically, if you would give Warden dodge attacks, you should also give Orochi static block instead of reflex guard.


So what I would suggest is

1. Give Warden side step (dodge) moderately fast light. Or if not, option to counter strike side attacts like Higlander can

Highlander cannot chain his multi-directional CC into anything. It's a one-hit strike, because it's from all directions. Warden, by contrast, has CC only from one direction (top), however can be chained into a lot of things in his kit.

Instead of side CCs, I propose to give Warden side deflects like Kensei's, if you dodge into the attack. You deflect the attack and you earn a free light.


2. More combos. One extra combo would do the trick. Something that would end with stabbing or even better half swording? Kensei has stabbing but knight with a longsword doesn't?

Agree, Warden needs some half-swording movement in his kit, in the same way it was portrayed in the pre-alpha build they showcased in 2015. I mean, the animations are supposedly still there. Just unassigned to anything. That way they wouldn't need to redo mocaps and stuff.


3. Maybe pommel strike like form of a light stun? Again, Kensei has that but Warden doesn't although longsword pommel was used in such a manner?

Coupled with the shoulderbash, two bash moves from neutral is a bit too much. He's not Gladiator, and let's not make him a second Gladiator. If anything, a pommel strike bash should be either:

1- only possible as a followup in a combo, or
2- as a parry counter


4. Just a little bit faster heavy strikes. He is wielding a longsword not a 100lbs metal pipe! Longsword is actually pretty fast.

The speed of his heavies is fine to me. Rep30 Warden main here. And that's rep30 in just 2.5 months of playing. I know him well, and I don't think he needs faster heavies. You must think of it like a trade-off. Faster heavies means less damage. A damage nerf to Warden is detrimental, not a buff or a rework. It's a complete mess.


I also hope that you will give us one decent longsword. Like an actual, history -inspired longsword used by knights. Simple at effective. Please, stop with weird shapes, gold and diamonds. It doesn't look good. As a matter of fact, it looks disgusting. Why can Highlander or Kensei get so many nice looking weapons but Warden can't?

Agreed, museum-looking weapons are a big issue; but that's not the focus of your topic here, so we'll leave this for another time.


Give players more options so they stop with that ridiculous vortex. Not that they have many other options.

They do. They just won't resort to them. Because vortex is too easy. And in this game, no matter which hero, people will almost always resort to the easiest thing to pull off, to dish out damage as quickly and as easily as possible. It doesn't stop with Warden. But Warden was the first.

NinjaRonin85
02-20-2018, 02:07 AM
Just make it so he can soft feint heavy into sb then feint that into gb, also give the knights hyper armour they do have the best armour.

bob333e
02-20-2018, 02:25 AM
Just make it so he can soft feint heavy into sb then feint that into gb

A heavy softfeint into GB is more logical given the nature of Warden's kit. In essence, you may only activate SB if you dodge or if you land a light or a CC. Here you're suggesting to activate SB off a softfeint, which creates disparity in Warden's kit. It just doesn't fit in his kit. You're essentially suggesting this so that you can have an easier time initiating a shoulderbash.

Moreover, a heavy softfeint into GB also won't fit. Warden's heavies aren't chargeable. If he could charge his heavies like Cent or Shaman, then yes. But it isn't the case.

Also, you're basically saying you want to chain two softfeints in a row. No other character can do that. Implementing this would technically make Warden broken.


also give the knights hyper armour they do have the best armour.

What do you mean here.... hyperarmor on attacks, or full-plate torso armor like LB?

The former I do not support at all. Warden doesn't need hyperarmor on his attacks. He's a counterattacker, not a trader. Big difference.

The latter is a design issue. Warden is also missing lower body / leg armor customization.

The_B0G_
02-20-2018, 02:57 AM
I have an idea for warden that I think would be pretty cool, I'm not sure how many have seen the movie Kingdom of Heaven, but at one part of the movie he uses the High Guard stance, the specific name for the stance is "from the roof".

Here is the technical definition, " "from the roof", Vom Dach/Vom Tag (an Oberhut), by raising the weapon up with the shoulders (held at roughly 45-degrees, not horizontal). Passing the foot is useful in transitioning here. The position is both threatening and warding. It easily lowers to any other stance or turns to the ox."

Now when you hold your guard top in the game with warden now, that is what they call Ox stance, the lower guard to left or right in game is called "plow" stance, so these are actually all part of the same swordsmanship teachings which is called European Martial Arts.

My idea is to make High Guard or "From the roof" stance work like Nobushi Hidden stance, you hold down on the right stick and you enter into this stance, from there you gain access to maybe a deflect attack and possibly a fast opener or a heavy hitting punish for a wiff.

The_B0G_
02-20-2018, 04:09 AM
I found the link for the fight I was talking about in the movie.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oSNYkCa1f24

NNKaliasME
02-20-2018, 04:52 PM
If I had something like a wishlist for a Warden rework I would put this alpha move he had into it
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PaleCarefreeLamprey-size_restricted.gif
This kind of move would work for warden very well, low damage but stun as a chain finisher to make the next attack (dont lie its gonna be a shoulder bash mixup) harder to react to, kind of like raiders stunning tap. A little buff without touching the core SB.
As I understand it the animation/move was removed because it didnt look well enough, there is probably more than this but its clear that the weapon is teleporting everywhere just from this snippet.
A cleaned up version of this would be nice.

In my head the move plays like this:
L > Chain Finisher ( > Shoulder bash)
L > L > Chain Finisher( > Shoulder bash)
H > Chain Finisher( > Shoulder bash)
Soulder Bash > Chain finisher ( > Shoulder bash)

Ye ye I know making the character probably a one trick pony like this is probably annoying for everyone fighting wardens but as I said the move doesnt have to do much damage,

The_B0G_
02-21-2018, 12:50 AM
If I had something like a wishlist for a Warden rework I would put this alpha move he had into it
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PaleCarefreeLamprey-size_restricted.gif
This kind of move would work for warden very well, low damage but stun as a chain finisher to make the next attack (dont lie its gonna be a shoulder bash mixup) harder to react to, kind of like raiders stunning tap. A little buff without touching the core SB.
As I understand it the animation/move was removed because it didnt look well enough, there is probably more than this but its clear that the weapon is teleporting everywhere just from this snippet.
A cleaned up version of this would be nice.

In my head the move plays like this:
L > Chain Finisher ( > Shoulder bash)
L > L > Chain Finisher( > Shoulder bash)
H > Chain Finisher( > Shoulder bash)
Soulder Bash > Chain finisher ( > Shoulder bash)

Ye ye I know making the character probably a one trick pony like this is probably annoying for everyone fighting wardens but as I said the move doesnt have to do much damage,

He could definitely use a new move or two but grabbing the sword by the blade and hitting with the hilt seems kind of... Pointless, the other end of the sword would do more damage logically speaking and would be faster, you could use that time for a heavier swing in reality.

I think its funny how no heavy classes have knock back on any heavy attacks that are blocked. I can't see many people blocking a heavy swing with a two handed weapon without being thrown a little off balance, unless they are big with a shield.

Zordrage
02-21-2018, 03:10 AM
He could definitely use a new move or two but grabbing the sword by the blade and hitting with the hilt seems kind of... Pointless, the other end of the sword would do more damage logically speaking and would be faster, you could use that time for a heavier swing in reality.



Your new here huh...
.its called half swording using the guard on the sword as a hammer on well armored oponent especialy on plate helms are more effective then hitting the plate armor with the blade itself... It can do serious injuries... Logically

The_B0G_
02-21-2018, 03:48 AM
Your new here huh...
.its called half swording using the guard on the sword as a hammer on well armored oponent especialy on plate helms are more effective then hitting the plate armor with the blade itself... It can do serious injuries... Logically

Not new here at all actually, but I can see you must be since you assumed I was. Half swording in this way (swinging it like a hammer) wasn't used often and if an opponent was agile, he could simply take the sword from you if you didn't deal a crippling blow, which is difficult to do and would leave you unarmed and defenseless if you failed, and even if he didn't and he simply moved out of the way, it would take a lot of time to recover from swinging the sword like that, seeing how a lot of the weight is at that end.

So yes, you're right in the fact that its a technique, but not the greatest/reliable one and if you think a hard solid swing of a sword against the side of a person's helmet wouldn't knock him out of a fight, then you haven't played many contact sports.

Zordrage
02-21-2018, 03:57 AM
Not new here at all actually, but I can see you must be since you assumed I was. Half swording in this way (swinging it like a hammer) wasn't used often and if an opponent was agile, he could simply take the sword from you if you didn't deal a crippling blow, which is difficult to do and would leave you unarmed and defenseless if you failed, and even if he didn't and he simply moved out of the way, it would take a lot of time to recover from swinging the sword like that, seeing how a lot of the weight is at that end.

So yes, you're right in the fact that its a technique, but not the greatest/reliable one and if you think a hard solid swing of a sword against the side of a person's helmet wouldn't knock him out of a fight, then you haven't played many contact sports.

The cross guard would do more dmg im sure...

Also we are playing a game where giant fat asian guys getting full blows to their bodies from giant swords and flails and they dont even flinch....

There are way more absurds stuff in the game then giving an actual technique to a character to use in combat... Also it looks cool so im all for it...

The_B0G_
02-21-2018, 04:10 AM
The cross guard would do more dmg im sure...

Also we are playing a game where giant fat asian guys getting full blows to their bodies from giant swords and flails and they dont even flinch....

There are way more absurds stuff in the game then giving an actual technique to a character to use in combat... Also it looks cool so im all for it...

Well a 300+ pound guy probably wouldnt have to flinch much besides Highlander attacks, depending on how hard samurai bamboo armor is lol

Like I said I think it's kind of show boaty and not very practical, but sure, it doesn't look bad I guess but I can see it being spammy, which it definitely wasn't.

Zordrage
02-21-2018, 04:49 AM
Well a 300+ pound guy probably wouldnt have to flinch much besides Highlander attacks, depending on how hard samurai bamboo armor is lol

Like I said I think it's kind of show boaty and not very practical, but sure, it doesn't look bad I guess but I can see it being spammy, which it definitely wasn't.

You prefer the shoulderbash spam ?

Tyrjo
02-21-2018, 08:28 AM
I don't think Warden needs a rework. He's very effective despite not having that many moves. He's a perfect "learn the game" hero. The game needs those as well.

The_B0G_
02-21-2018, 12:46 PM
You prefer the shoulderbash spam ?

Not at all, I don't want to trade one spam for another though, he needs more than one move added to his kit.