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tagTaken2
08-09-2006, 01:19 AM
Trim has been mapped to a button previously, mostly used it to avoid climbing up and down, and to slowwwly tighten a combat turn. I've seen, but never bothered to read the numerous threads/RBJ'ing etc, because it didn't seem that important.

Anyway, I put it on a throttle axis last night... and... IT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAME!

I butcher everything in the sky now!

Why isn't this in the readme?

Is it realistic (ie, actually possible and used during the war)to use the elevator trim to aim with?
Who cares! I'm off to play again! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

tagTaken2
08-09-2006, 01:19 AM
Trim has been mapped to a button previously, mostly used it to avoid climbing up and down, and to slowwwly tighten a combat turn. I've seen, but never bothered to read the numerous threads/RBJ'ing etc, because it didn't seem that important.

Anyway, I put it on a throttle axis last night... and... IT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAME!

I butcher everything in the sky now!

Why isn't this in the readme?

Is it realistic (ie, actually possible and used during the war)to use the elevator trim to aim with?
Who cares! I'm off to play again! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

maheikki
08-09-2006, 01:40 AM
Dont know about reality, but funny thing about PF trim is that you dont actually need stick two fly, if you have trims on sliders.

Now that is very realistic isn't it?http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Game not an simulation-

Odirroh
08-09-2006, 01:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tagTaken2:
...
Is it realistic (ie, actually possible and used during the war)to use the elevator trim to aim with? ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Whats your estimation?

Odirroh

leitmotiv
08-09-2006, 02:02 AM
Best trim control in a sim is in FS2004. I, too, learned about using the throttle slider for elevator trim, and it has helped a great deal. I wish somebody with make a trim wheel box with nice wheels for elevator, aileron, and rudder trim. This way you know exactly where you are without groping in the cockpit to try to see where you are on the virtual trim wheel. Trim control is absolutely a pain with this sim. FS2004's trim doesn't knock you each time you you enable it---Maddox trim jolts the plane unless you use the slider.

maheikki
08-09-2006, 02:07 AM
I have made trimbox myself. It is guite easy, connected it to old CH gameport pedals. Platy of instrucions can be found from net.

Personally I think, trim is way off in this game. Although trim was actually used by pilots in WW2, but I doubt you could too endless loops with only trim in realityhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

CMHQ_Rikimaru
08-09-2006, 02:22 AM
I think its realistic in FW190, because trim worked similar to this on the slider. It was eletrical trim, other planes sometimes had manual trim, or didnt have it at all. I know that P51 had trim for elevator, aileron and yaw, but dont know how it worked, i guess it was electrical too.

maheikki
08-09-2006, 02:25 AM
You mean that you could do loops with trim only in electrically equipped trim?

I dont buy thathttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The-Pizza-Man
08-09-2006, 02:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by maheikki:
I have made trimbox myself. It is guite easy, connected it to old CH gameport pedals. Platy of instrucions can be found from net.

Personally I think, trim is way off in this game. Although trim was actually used by pilots in WW2, but I doubt you could too endless loops with only trim in realityhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or if your cashed up and a bit lazy you can buy a go flight module.
http://www.fspilotshop.com/images/lgt1.JPG

Feathered_IV
08-09-2006, 03:26 AM
Can trim be mapped to a joystick slider such as the one used for throttle?

I've got a MS Sidewinder 2. I find the key-tapping trim activation a bit silly. It'd be nice to have something a little closer to rl.

Edit: Just answered my own question. Under Hotas. Takes a bit of practice by the look of things though. But should do wonders for my formation flying http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

leitmotiv
08-09-2006, 04:10 AM
I think I've found my trim Holy Grail, thanks to The-Pizza-Man:

http://www.simpilot.com/php/detail.php?id=83

More than enough dials for trim, and buttons thrown in for good measure. As for the DIY ploy, no dice---I have drouble with flipping light switches.

AFJ_Locust
08-09-2006, 04:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tagTaken2:
Trim has been mapped to a button previously, mostly used it to avoid climbing up and down, and to slowwwly tighten a combat turn. I've seen, but never bothered to read the numerous threads/RBJ'ing etc, because it didn't seem that important.

Anyway, I put it on a throttle axis last night... and... IT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAME!

I butcher everything in the sky now!

Why isn't this in the readme?

Is it realistic (ie, actually possible and used during the war)to use the elevator trim to aim with?
Who cares! I'm off to play again! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another exploiter

Trim doesnot help you fight fast ac that come from the heavens & blast you into eternity http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif with your trimed out lamer tactics

raaaid
08-09-2006, 05:49 AM
people forgets that a good 109 pilot would prefer to use trim to stick since the forces required to operate it are minor

just think of servotabs as a mean to reduce forces on stick

Vanderstok
08-09-2006, 06:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I think I've found my trim Holy Grail, thanks to The-Pizza-Man:

http://www.simpilot.com/php/detail.php?id=83

More than enough dials for trim, and buttons thrown in for good measure. As for the DIY ploy, no dice---I have drouble with flipping light switches. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you like a little DIY, than it's very easy to make trimwheels yourself with a USB joystick controller like the one here: http://www.lbodnar.dsl.pipex.com/joystick/

I made this cockpit (including trim wheels) for less than the price for the box you mention!
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l304/vanderstok/deskpit01.jpg
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l304/vanderstok/deskpit05.jpg

leitmotiv
08-09-2006, 06:18 AM
Vanderstok, you a wonderful craftsman, and I can't hammer a nail! Beautiful! A credit to the simming community. I am green with envy!

Crash_Moses
08-09-2006, 06:22 AM
I've had elevator trim mapped to the thumb wheel on my TQS for...like...ever! Combined with a good set of rudder pedals it makes strafing AA sites in Ol' Bessy a breeze.

I don't know how often it was used in combat but I've read many pilot accounts that mention constant use of trim during a flight (especially long ones) to help reduce fatigue.

maheikki
08-09-2006, 06:34 AM
So have I, trim was used alot in combat and cruising, but I have never read anything about being able to turn and loop with only using trimshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p-11.cAce
08-09-2006, 06:53 AM
Never flown a fighter in RL (obviously) but have flown a lot of general aviation and use trim constantly. While in training my instructor would fly the entire approach and landing with the trim sometimes just to reinforce its importance for control. I would think that in RL combat pilots would be trimming continuously to limit stick forces as speeds rapidly increased and decreased. I like to fly with a bit of nose up trim in sim and RL as I like the feel of a slight backwards stick force - especially on approach: if the stick force goes away I know I'm getting to slow and approaching a stall http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

p1ngu666
08-09-2006, 06:54 AM
if it went full in one direction,then that was interesting...

WWMaxGunz
08-09-2006, 06:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by maheikki:
Dont know about reality, but funny thing about PF trim is that you dont actually need stick two fly, if you have trims on sliders.

Now that is very realistic isn't it?http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Game not an simulation- </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In reality it can be and has been done.
Why don't you try flying a real plane before saying what is impossible in real?
You can get a pilot to let you do limited things even without you having a license, at least
if the pilot trusts you enough.

Check yourself how fast can you maneuver using only trim.
Not so fast as you jerk the stick is it?
TagTaken and many others are finally maybe finding the benefits of smooth control?

Here is a big tip for you guys: go to the stick sliders screen and add a bunch of FILTER to
first just the PITCH control and see how you fly after that. Try like halfway up first. You
maybe like that better than flying by trim as it allows you to jink faster than a drunk hippo.

Real pilots did use trim in combat. At least USAAF pilots did.
--------------------------------------
http://www.cebudanderson.com/ch1.htm
--------------------------------------
Do Edit-&gt;Find on this page (or whatever your browser does for word search on web page) for
the word trimmed. That paragraph is about 3/4 the way down. Read and learn. This man was
a leader in a large fighter wing, he is speaking about what training and practices common
to all was and not special personal thing though perhaps the rookies were not so good at it.

OberUberWurst
08-09-2006, 07:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Vanderstok, you a wonderful craftsman, and I can't hammer a nail! Beautiful! A credit to the simming community. I am green with envy! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif Nice work Vanderstok, i luv it..

WWMaxGunz
08-09-2006, 07:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CMHQ_Rikimaru:
I think its realistic in FW190, because trim worked similar to this on the slider. It was eletrical trim, other planes sometimes had manual trim, or didnt have it at all. I know that P51 had trim for elevator, aileron and yaw, but dont know how it worked, i guess it was electrical too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

P-51 has 3 small wheels. From Anderson they was like tuning a radio dial while driving a car.

WWMaxGunz
08-09-2006, 07:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
Never flown a fighter in RL (obviously) but have flown a lot of general aviation and use trim constantly. While in training my instructor would fly the entire approach and landing with the trim sometimes just to reinforce its importance for control. I would think that in RL combat pilots would be trimming continuously to limit stick forces as speeds rapidly increased and decreased. I like to fly with a bit of nose up trim in sim and RL as I like the feel of a slight backwards stick force - especially on approach: if the stick force goes away I know I'm getting to slow and approaching a stall http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a good trick! Do you use nose up to aid some in the final nose up flare?
Just wondering as you don't use nose down trim to make it easier to drop nose on approach
of stall. You have pretty light controls, yes?

maheikki
08-09-2006, 08:35 AM
As I said, I dont know about reality.
But what is the stick for if I can do exactly the same in IL2 with trims, etc. do all the maneuvers with that.

I know trimming is important and was used alot, but I doubt anyone could actually fly the plane with only trimming.

For example, takeoff, land do the chandella etc.
No matter what you say, this is not realistic WWWMaxGuntz, I just dont buy it.

leitmotiv
08-09-2006, 08:48 AM
The father of a close friend of mine flew Hellcats from an American INDEPENDENCE class light carrier in WWII. He never got into action against a Japanese aircraft. He stunned me by revealing that he and his squadron mates never used trim tabs unless they were flying long distances cross country in the USA. When he heard about some of the claims made by simmers about constant trimming, he scoffed. He also said they always flew with their hoods open. Two things were absolute necessities among naval pilots, he said, gloves and always wear goggles in case of a fire. When he was told about a famous RAF pilot who was severely burned because he flew without goggles and gloves, he scoffed again.

Bearcat99
08-09-2006, 08:55 AM
I have read many accounts from other pilots who said they constantly had to fiddle with trim..especially Mustang pilots... as it was very hard to fly hands free in a Mustang for long. Just leaning to the left or right would throw the balance off .. that was one of the things that made it such an effective fighter.

You can also do what I did.. and just get an X-45. It has trim wheels on the throttle.... with detents. I use the trottle of my MSFFB2 for rudder trim since it has a stick on it and I can see where it is and get a good estimate. On some planes the need fro rudder trim changes as the throttle changes. I modified my X-45 to get rid of the stick part.. but it works fine for me.

http://x10.putfile.com/4/9600402714.jpg

WB_Outlaw
08-09-2006, 09:02 AM
There have been many GA accidents caused by improperly set trim tabs. In one of the accounts, the NTSB determined that the elevator trim was set so tail heavy that the pilot probably could not have pushed hard enough on the yoke to prevent the stall. That's how effective trim can be. They could not tell if the pilot realized the problem or not but it would not have mattered as there was not enough time or altitude to adjust it.

The unrealistic part in IL-2 is the speed at which trim can be adjusted and the fact that our virtual pilots have an unlimited number of hands and feet. With my programmable stick I can do elevator, aileron, rudder, elevator trim, rudder trim, aileron trim, AND one other function if I was so inclined all with 100% positive control.

For those with trim on an analog axis, remember that you can fine tune it just like you can pitch, roll, and yaw. I tone mine down quite a bit in the early stages and am able to adjust for level flight in just about any aircraft.

--Outlaw.

leitmotiv
08-09-2006, 09:09 AM
I recently read a report by a pilot who was allowed to fly a refurbished Hurricane. Similarly to Oleg's Hurricane only worse, he wrote each speed change resulted in the nose pitching up and down unpleasantly necessitating immediate recourse to the trim wheel. Thus, one man's meat is another's poison. Thanks for the tip, Bearcat99, but they will have to pry my cold, dead hands from my beloved Logitech Wingman 3D.

Divine-Wind
08-09-2006, 09:09 AM
Get a throttle quadrant then. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Any good HOTAS system will have an insane number of switches and wheels you can program for trimming. I have the elevator trim set to the thumb rotary on my X52 throttle, and the rudder set to the rotary on top (which is devilishly hard to get to quickly). Or you can program it to a hat, like in most modern fighters.

(Btw, the only fish that's holy is the Bass)

leitmotiv
08-09-2006, 09:16 AM
I want wheels with nice little marks so I know exactly how much trim I have used. Alas, my Logitech FF stick isn't bristling with baubles, bangles, bells, and whistles. My hat is strictly for lightning changes in POV (drat, no 6 dof for my TrackIR).

p-11.cAce
08-09-2006, 09:47 AM
Two things - First in order to be certified by the FAA an aircrafts trim system MUST be able to be defeated by the pilot at or below manuvering speed. This means that stick (or yoke) forces must be low enough for the pilot to maintain control even if a trim axis runs all the way to the stop. However, flying even a little out of trim is no fun and even at moderate speeds control forces rapidly escalate. Second - WWMaxgunz I do like the control forces to be relativley light and I would not want to trim in any nose down tendancy to aid in approach - however this is my personal preference and really is not the best practice as nosing up into an unintentional stall is more a risk than dropping the nose momentarily. For me its a "security blanket" effect - I like to feel the stick pressure on approach as I know if it increases I am speeding up and if it goes away I am slowing down. This is a carry over from my days flying hang gliders - a hang glider has a "trim speed" at which it will naturally settle to if flown hands off. This speed is generally around best glide speed so the pressure required on the control bar is light when you are soaring. The approach speed flown should be faster so in order to lower the nose you must increase force rearward on the control bar - the faster you go the more the bar "pushes" back against you as the glider seeks to slow to its trim speed by raising the nose (in fact this is what all aircraft do - 3 axis aircraft have trim tabs to adjust the trim speed though). If you get slow on a hang glider the bar pressure decreases and generally drops to almost nothing at the stall. Anyway I have carried over the "bar pressure" that I am confortable with from hangies to three axis flight and I find it very useful in sim and RL for maintaining my approach and manuvering speed without diverting attention to check the gauges.

Bearcat99
08-09-2006, 10:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I recently read a report by a pilot who was allowed to fly a refurbished Hurricane. Similarly to Oleg's Hurricane only worse, he wrote each speed change resulted in the nose pitching up and down unpleasantly necessitating immediate recourse to the trim wheel. Thus, one man's meat is another's poison. Thanks for the tip, Bearcat99, but they will have to pry my cold, dead hands from my beloved Logitech Wingman 3D. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It should be dead within the year... the stick I mean... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by maheikki:
As I said, I dont know about reality.
But what is the stick for if I can do exactly the same in IL2 with trims, etc. do all the maneuvers with that.

I know trimming is important and was used alot, but I doubt anyone could actually fly the plane with only trimming.

For example, takeoff, land do the chandella etc.
No matter what you say, this is not realistic WWWMaxGuntz, I just dont buy it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont care what anyone says... you can only fly so much with just trim. Especially against a competent pilot.

mschrad2
08-09-2006, 10:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vanderstok:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I think I've found my trim Holy Grail, thanks to The-Pizza-Man:

http://www.simpilot.com/php/detail.php?id=83

More than enough dials for trim, and buttons thrown in for good measure. As for the DIY ploy, no dice---I have drouble with flipping light switches. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you like a little DIY, than it's very easy to make trimwheels yourself with a USB joystick controller like the one here: http://www.lbodnar.dsl.pipex.com/joystick/

I made this cockpit (including trim wheels) for less than the price for the box you mention!
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l304/vanderstok/deskpit01.jpg
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l304/vanderstok/deskpit05.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How did you do your labels? Outstanding job, nice work!

leitmotiv
08-09-2006, 11:01 AM
Wrong again, Bearmeister, have had it a year and a half and it is as good as new. Previous Logitech FF was marv, too. Have a Cyborg evo FF, and a newer Logitech, and both are inferior. Maddox without FF is unthinkable. Just got the holy of holies an unused Microsoft FF, the classic.

WWMaxGunz
08-09-2006, 11:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by maheikki:
As I said, I dont know about reality.
But what is the stick for if I can do exactly the same in IL2 with trims, etc. do all the maneuvers with that.

I know trimming is important and was used alot, but I doubt anyone could actually fly the plane with only trimming.

For example, takeoff, land do the chandella etc.
No matter what you say, this is not realistic WWWMaxGuntz, I just dont buy it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not what you can do. It's how fast you can change the control deflections.

Put you in a real plane flying along and tell you to hold the stick steady and then turn
the pitch wheel all the way back, if you let the stick go it will smack you hard. Then
you'd have to grab it real quick and push it back to center before the plane you'd be
allowed to do that in stalls. WWII fighter could well loop if speed was good. It could
also go into a spin and crash.

You got problems with how fast the trim works, take em to Oleg. There are problems I have
with the way the key-delayed trim works in that IRL I stop trimming when the pressure is
off the yoke but try holding pitch trim key down say 2 seconds when you only needed 1.5.
It keeps going and no way to stop. It is a code artefact of how they wedged trim delay
into the flight engine not designed to have that, not designed to be abused or exploited.
The delay is there with sliders but if you don't jerk the slider it's nearly 1:1. I use
a hat to trim, button = key so I gotta be careful not to mash and hold or it'll be a longer
time than I care till I get trim straightened out.

Like what I said above, throw a lot of FILTER on your stick axes and see if you don't get
the same basic benefits only with faster response. At that point you can quit b!tching
about the slider trim since you can outmaneuver the ones who do. Your choice I guess as
some people would rather b!tch than anything.

MrMojok
08-09-2006, 11:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vanderstok:

If you like a little DIY, than it's very easy to make trimwheels yourself with a USB joystick controller like the one here: http://www.lbodnar.dsl.pipex.com/joystick/

I made this cockpit (including trim wheels) for less than the price for the box you mention!
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l304/vanderstok/deskpit01.jpg
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l304/vanderstok/deskpit05.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do the little buttons behind the stick do?

Vanderstok
08-09-2006, 01:05 PM
Some answers about the "deskpit"...

The labels are printouts from my inkjet printer on heavy photopaper. Very easy to do and the effect is convincing. The center square panel behind the ordnance selector is plastic sheet, sprayed in the same paint as the frame. This looks just like metal in reality.

Here's an explanation of the buttons:
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l304/vanderstok/deskpit_layout.jpg

triggerhappyfin
08-11-2006, 11:59 AM
I've got a "trimbox" of my owne making for quite a time now, but some weeks ago I made a "switchbox" out of my old X-36 combo. I posted it on the stick modder thread. Now it's merged with the trimbox!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/Triggerhappyfin/Pulpittrim.jpg

On the backside I've added a connection for my TM Elite pedals http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Next mod on the device will be changing of 270 degree pots for trims to multiturn pots witch I already purchased for the purpose http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif. This will hopefully add to the sensivity of trimming http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif.

StellarRat
08-11-2006, 05:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vanderstok:
[I made this cockpit (including trim wheels) for less than the price for the box you mention!
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l304/vanderstok/deskpit01.jpg
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l304/vanderstok/deskpit05.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That is awesome! You are a craftsman! Good work.

tagTaken2
08-11-2006, 11:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vanderstok:
If you like a little DIY, than it's very easy to make trimwheels yourself with a USB joystick controller like the one here: http://www.lbodnar.dsl.pipex.com/joystick/

I made this cockpit (including trim wheels) for less than the price for the box you mention! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I should try something like that. I have unused unused x and y axis on thrustmaster afterburner (throttle is used and buttons). I have to purchase a soldering iron (OT rant: Sony MDREX51LP earbuds, fantastic sound, but so fragile I wouldn't recommend them to anyone- broken two pair in 3 months, going to replace the cables with something solid http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif) so this might be the start of something beautiful. I suspect that it won't look like that though...

Really, there should be something about a elevator trim axis in the essentials sticky. Planes that I never enjoyed, mustang, fw190 are now a pleasure to fly. No more fruitless dragging at the FFB stick, accidental leakages, and sounds of gorilla love.