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Kamen42
02-09-2018, 09:33 AM
I see quite a number of people complaining that Berserker changes were not a proper rework, like Kensei got, but rather a quality of life balance changes, like Highlander got.

As a berserker main I am actually glad he didn't get changed a lot. I liked him even before the rework. He didn't have that many options as some other characters, he was not easy to play or to get damage done, but it was a damn good feeling when things worked out the way you planned.

Basically he can do everything he could but a bit better. The only thing he lost was the first attack cancel into dodgem which was never really useful. And the automatic guard break after deflect. Which is not that bad. As the devs say it could lead to some dangerous situations, like in a team fight, when you accidentally dodged in the exact time a ganking opponent launched an attack and you were vulnerable to attacks of the original target. Or in Aramusha light chain, when the GB simply didn't connect. Now it is also more consistent with the other characters when everybody else has to press something to get their deflect move (except for Shinobi who gets a bleed regardless).

These changes make his life a bit easier, give him more options, but they don't take away the fun.

FrappeWarrior
02-09-2018, 10:58 AM
as a zerker main i have to disagree. im not saying the changes are bad and of course we cant know for sure until we try them out but from what i see on paper i am a bit disappointed.

we gained some speed and a better chance to land some lights and in general it made his feint game a tiny bit more dangerous and we gained two unblockables.

the first unblockable is the top heavy finisher which is so slow that even without the unblockable status it almost always triggers a reaction. people already know to expect a feint into GB or light and still have plenty of time to parry/dodge if you let it flow. on the other hand we lost 25 damage from this attack which is really bad imo. the oos punish is now 33 damage less and that top heavy was zerker best trade, now you are going to be trading for 30 damage.

the second unblockable (with the damage increase to supposedly balance the top heavy damage loss) is the 3rd side heavy which, lets be honest, is kinda useless. when was the last time you managed to land 3 consecutive heavies. even if you got to that point you most like used that heavy for a feint. its not impossible but it is unlikely. you could whiff the 1st, trade the 2nd and then go for the 3rd and still your best bet is a feint. is it a bit better since the unblockable status forces a reaction? yes. is it a game changer buff? no.

we lost a bit of damage in the openers which are more likely to hit and gained a bit of damage in the chained hits that are more unlikely to hit, combine that with the heavy damage changes and you 'll see that while in theory the zerkers damage may seem higher or equal than before in practice i think its actually going to be lower. we lost the dodge cancel on openers which btw is not useless and we lost a bit of damage and stamina damage from the throws. we also lost the ability to counter attack after blocking a light.

again this is just on paper we dont really know how it actually plays but it seems we are trading more than we should for two (easily predictable) unblockables and a bit faster lights

Kamen42
02-09-2018, 01:13 PM
As I said, I liked zerker already before the rework, that's why I am glad they didn't change that much. That is just my personal feeling though.

I can see why you are discontent. Berserker was promised big changes, but in the end stayed more or less stayed the same. We lost a few tools (e.g. attack cancel into dodge), but we got some more option instead. Stay with me and I will point out two things these unblockales mean and I am really looking forward to try them.



the first unblockable is the top heavy finisher which is so slow that even without the unblockable status it almost always triggers a reaction. people already know to expect a feint into GB or light and still have plenty of time to parry/dodge if you let it flow.

True, in most cases this attack has relatively the same use as before. Only now if you mix things up, people can't just let it fly and block.
The main change I see is that now the attack is not counterable by attacks with superior block - Warden top light. Highlander light, Valkyrie dodge-block and so on. This used to be an easy way for these characters to get damage on zerk and now it will be gone.
In the past even if you feinted against warden and followed by a light, they usually got their top light before your attack connected. They basically reacted to a wrong move but still got a favorable trade. They won't be able to do this anymore and with the uninterruptible stance and faster light after feint, you will beat this even if they do a top light out of habit.
Even other characters can't just let it land and block if they are unsure. But I agree that in most cases this change does not have a huge impact.


the second unblockable (with the damage increase to supposedly balance the top heavy damage loss) is the 3rd side heavy which, lets be honest, is kinda useless. when was the last time you managed to land 3 consecutive heavies.
...
is it a bit better since the unblockable status forces a reaction? yes. is it a game changer buff? no

True, this chain was difficult to pull off. I sometimes managed to surprise the opponent by using it to end my infinite chain - heavy, light, heavy, heavy, heavy. Even then the third heavy was usually not effective. But let me get to the part, where the forced reaction from the unblockable status MIGHT be a game changer.


the oos punish is now 33 damage less

The new OOS punish.
(first, the old punish does 25 dmg less. The old top heavy finisher was 55, now will be 30. But that is not the main stuff I wanted to point out.)
The top heavy lost a lot of damage. The old punish - side heavy into top heavy. Easy to pull off, huge amount of guaranteed damage (which honestly was a bit too much. I sometimes felt ashamed when I used it). Great damage but once you finished with this combo, you were done. You knew it, the enemy knew it. They had some time to breathe. But now, with top heavy finisher damage nerfed and third side heavy damage buffed AND being unblockable, I can see the Bear Mauler as a new, much scarier OOS punish. And it is all because of the unblockable third.

Why? If you GB an OOS opponent and throw, you have guaranteed two side heavies (since the second side heavy is faster than top heavy), BUT... now you can follow up with a third, unblockable heavy.

Imagine being in the opponent situation. You are out of stamina, the enemy zerk just got two heavies and a third 45 damage UNBLOCKABLE heavy coming your way. What do you do? You can't stand and block, you have to do something. What are your options? Dodge or parry.
You probably still OOS. You can't safely parry. What if he feints? Then you are stuck in a slow OOS heavy attack. The zerker parries you and gets a second OOS punish.
So do you dodge? The zerker feints, GBs you and gets a second OOS punish.

This is the main strength I see in the unblockable third heavy. While your OOS punish has a lower guaranteed damage, you have an easier way to deal more damage right after.

These are the main advantages I see with the new unblockables. There might be more along the way. You see these changes as useless. I see a lot of potential in them. Even though some of it applies only to certain situations.

FrappeWarrior
02-09-2018, 01:24 PM
snip.

some good points there regarding the top finisher. overall if i had to choose between unblockable or 55 dmg i would also go for unblockable. my problem is that they overdid it with the damage nerf. as for the side finisher i just dont see it working. even if you surprise your opponent thats still 3 heavies. i guess yes it can find a place in the new oos punish but i dont feel thats a big rework or a buff.

the old oos punish is 33 less you are forgeting 8 damage from the forward push :)

Kamen42
02-09-2018, 02:08 PM
the old oos punish is 33 less you are forgeting 8 damage from the forward push :)

Yes, it seems I am :) On the other hand the second heavy in Bear Mauler jumps from 20 dmg to 35 :) The first side does 33 damage so we will have 68 guaranteed damage oos punish + the follow up potential I described in my previous post.

I guess we will have to wait how these changes turn out.

PDXGorechild
02-09-2018, 02:13 PM
The old OOS is 33 less, yes. But the new one, by the looks of it, is 68 damage guaranteed (33 + 35 first two heavies) with a potential for 45 more damage with unblockable, which can be feinted quite easily into a lightning fast light chain starter or a guard break, potentially leading to another OOS punish. This seems fairer to me, rather than being a flat guaranteed 96 damage as it was (8 punch, 33 side heavy 55 top heavy). It now guarantee's less at 68 but has more potential with follow up's (113 damage if they eat the third heavy, ouch)

It's a mixed bag, we took a few nerfs, not entirely sure why the dodge cancel was so necessary but I can see why the max OOS punish was.

We traded a lot of top heavy damage for two unblockables and some serious side heavy damage.

Dance of the paired blades is drastically better. I know a 3 damage buff for light and 5 for heavy doesn't seem like much, but with the light being 400ms (very hard to react to on console) it's made it far more viable. You'll still have to be careful launching the heavies in the combo if your opponent is skilled at parrying, but even the rewards from that are soon to be less. Damage output when in full flow will be 40 damage per second, base. Tasty.

They fixed head slicer, head crusher and zone attack just the way I wanted them to. These moves were mostly redundant before so this is all positive.

I think it's gonna work.

FrappeWarrior
02-09-2018, 02:18 PM
gentlemen you are right i stand corrected. the actual damage loss in oos punish is 28 not 33.

im not say its all bad, but i do feel a bit underwhelmed .. overall he is going to be better but i dont think he is going to leave B-tier

S0Mi_xD
02-09-2018, 02:25 PM
The old OOS is 33 less, yes. But the new one, by the looks of it, is 68 damage guaranteed (33 + 35 first two heavies) with a potential for 45 more damage with unblockable, which can be feinted quite easily into a lightning fast light chain starter or a guard break, potentially leading to another OOS punish. This seems fairer to me, rather than being a flat guaranteed 96 damage as it was (8 punch, 33 side heavy 55 top heavy). It now guarantee's less at 68 but has more potential with follow up's (113 damage if they eat the third heavy, ouch)

It's a mixed bag, we took a few nerfs, not entirely sure why the dodge cancel was so necessary but I can see why the max OOS punish was.

We traded a lot of top heavy damage for two unblockables and some serious side heavy damage.

Dance of the paired blades is drastically better. I know a 3 damage buff for light and 5 for heavy doesn't seem like much, but with the light being 400ms (very hard to react to on console) it's made it far more viable. You'll still have to be careful launching the heavies in the combo if your opponent is skilled at parrying, but even the rewards from that are soon to be less. Damage output when in full flow will be 40 damage per second, base. Tasty.

They fixed head slicer, head crusher and zone attack just the way I wanted them to. These moves were mostly redundant before so this is all positive.

I think it's gonna work.

lol that's basically what i wanted to say XDDD

PDXGorechild
02-09-2018, 02:26 PM
lol that's basically what i wanted to say XDDD

Learnt from the best ;)

RenegadeTX2000
02-09-2018, 02:38 PM
taking a side light to always seeing a top unblockable will be scary...

Kamen42
02-09-2018, 02:58 PM
not entirely sure why the dodge cancel was so necessary

If I understood correctly, the heavy opener can still be canceled into dodge. The cancel was only removed from light attacks, which caused flicker and technical problems. I usually used the heavy cancel anyway because most people did not react to the light cancel at all.


overall he is going to be better but i dont think he is going to leave B-tier

Personally I am completely fine with that. I enjoy more playing a weaker character with rewarding playstyle if things work out rather than playing superstrong character that rolls over anything with little to no effort. For me Berserker was always the perfect middle ground. The changes make him easier to play but they are not over the top.


taking a side light to always seeing a top unblockable will be scary...

That is a good point too :)

PDXGorechild
02-09-2018, 03:25 PM
If I understood correctly, the heavy opener can still be canceled into dodge. The cancel was only removed from light attacks, which caused flicker and technical problems. I usually used the heavy cancel anyway because most people did not react to the light cancel at all.

Do you think this means we can still heavy soft feint into dodge attack? I can't quite seem to work it out from the notes. Will be gutted if we lose this as it's great for confusing people in group fights.

Kamen42
02-09-2018, 03:36 PM
Do you think this means we can still heavy soft feint into dodge attack? I can't quite seem to work it out from the notes. Will be gutted if we lose this as it's great for confusing people in group fights.

This is taken directly from the 1.19 patch notes:
- Removed Dodge cancel from Heavy Attacks starting from the 2nd in Dance of the Paired Blades.
- Dodge Cancels can now only be performed while Berserker has Stamina.

From the first point I understand that the first heavy can still be soft feinted into dodge. Otherwise the second point would make no sense.
You won't be able to soft feint a heavy in the middle of the infinite chain, which I didn't even know was possible. I though the old moveset said that only the opener attacks could be canceled into dodge.

PDXGorechild
02-09-2018, 04:02 PM
This is taken directly from the 1.19 patch notes:
- Removed Dodge cancel from Heavy Attacks starting from the 2nd in Dance of the Paired Blades.
- Dodge Cancels can now only be performed while Berserker has Stamina.

From the first point I understand that the first heavy can still be soft feinted into dodge. Otherwise the second point would make no sense.
You won't be able to soft feint a heavy in the middle of the infinite chain, which I didn't even know was possible. I though the old moveset said that only the opener attacks could be canceled into dodge.

Ah, that’s a bit clearer. Yeah it is/was possible. Was a useful tool for group fights - whilst having the dance going on one opponent, when another opponent nears you and swings an attack, change lock on your heavy swing startup and soft feint into a spin chop the other way. Means you’d often get a hit off whilst dodging two. A subtltly, but I’m sorry to lose it.

S0Mi_xD
02-09-2018, 04:58 PM
Learnt from the best ;)

hehe :o

High-Horse
02-09-2018, 10:08 PM
I didn't see you guys mention this, maybe you did: The light parry punish got a pretty big nerf.

If you didn't know, in most cases, when you parried a light, you could backstep into "Skilled Slash" (I didn't know it had a name, just knew it was really fast) to whiff it into a Top Heavy Finisher, instead of a raw top heavy from neutral.

Now, Skilled Slash is slower by 100ms, and Top Heavy Finisher damage is reduced.

The other buffs I think more than make up for this, just something to consider.

UbiInsulin
02-09-2018, 10:48 PM
Just going to post the relevant portion of the patch notes so it's easier for you guys to consult. Thanks very much for the great discussion so far!:


BERSERKER

Light Opener and Heavy Opener


Light Opener and Heavy Opener gain Uninterruptible Stance if used immediately after a Feint.
Side Light Openers are now 400ms if used immediately after a Feint.
Top Light Opener is now 500ms if used immediately after a Feint.
Light Openers’ damage reduced to 15 (from 17).

Developer Comments: At high level, Berserker needs to mix Feints into the Chains. But Feinting means the Berserker would lose the Uninterruptible Stance benefit, and often end up taking a hit. Now, if you attack immediately after Feinting, your basic Light and basic Heavy will have Uninterruptible Stance. This should allow Berserker more opportunity to trades in mid-chains, if the opponent misreads, and allows him to continue applying pressure.

Heavy Finishers


3rd Side Heavy Finishers are now Unblockable.
3rd Side Heavy Finishers now do 45 damage (were 30).
2nd Top Heavy Finisher is now Unblockable.
2nd Top Heavy Finisher now does 30 damage (was 55).


Developer Comments: Berserker has a hard time cracking dedicated turtlers, especially Warlords and Conquerors. This change will let Berserker force the opponent to act or be hit.

We have adjusted the damage so the Top Heavy Finisher is lower damage than the Side Heavy Finishers, because they are deeper in the chain and harder to get to.

Dance of the Paired Blades


Infinite Light attacks from 2nd strike onward durations are now 400ms (were 500ms).
Infinite Light attacks from 2nd strike onward now do 15 damage (were 12).
Infinite Heavy attacks from 2nd strike onward now do 25 damage (were 20).


Developer Comments: We want these lights to be hard to block, since blocking one ends the chain, and it's currently too easy. Speeding this up will make it tougher, and give a bit more contrast between choosing a Light or a Heavy. Note that this speed increase or damage buff does not apply to the chains openers - just to attacks inside the chain.

Bear Mauler


2nd Heavy attacks now do 35 damage (were 20).


Developer Comments: The Berserker’s chained attacks generally felt extremely weak. It was strange that Berserkers who did what they are built for, taking risks and relentlessly attacking, didn’t have a reasonable reward.

Head Slicer


Now has Uninterruptible Stance starting at 100ms (was 300ms).


Developer Comments: Head Slicer is successful when used to dodge forward and trade with an attacker, so this is meant to make that a little easier.

Deflect (and “Brute Force”)


Now requires the player to press the Guard Break Button during the Deflect to perform “Brute Force” (the new name for the quick Guard Break).
If no input is pressed, the Berserker will not attempt the quick Guard Break.


Developer Comments: Berserker's Deflect into Guard Break doesn't beat everything - it fails against actions that "force no reaction" on hit - and the case we were seeing most was against Shinobi's Top Light into Backflip. In this case, the Deflect into Guard Break would fail because the Shinobi won't play a hit reaction during the Backflip, and when the Guard Break failed it actually allowed the Shinobi to punish the Berserker. This is the worst likely case for Berserker at this time, but it's probable that over time, more scenarios could appear.

By changing the Deflect into Guard Break to now require a button press, we can retain Berserker's strong Deflect into Guard Break in most situations, but also allow Berserkers to elect not to perform the Guard Break portion in situations that would be dangerous (such as the Shinobi case, or group fights).

Zone Attack


Now moves the Berserker 1m further forward (extra distance is spread across all strikes).
4th strike now causes a Light hit reaction (was Heavy hit reaction), and the connection to Infinite Light Attack afterwards was made 100ms later.
When Zone Attack is parried, Berserker will now use the shorter “Heavy parried” reaction.

Developer Comments: Zone Attack had an issue where if your opponent dodged backwards, you'd spin while standing in place whiffing, and be completely vulnerable to attacks. Now, the extra distance allows the Berserker to have a better chance to catch up to a back-dodging opponent.
This change to the 4th strike’s timing is because we buffed the Infinite Light Attack speeds - without this change, Berserkers would be guaranteed to hit the Light Attack after the Zone Attack.


“Slashing Rush”


“Slashing Rush” is now much easier to perform.
When “Slashing Rush” is parried, Berserker will now use the shorter “Heavy parried” reaction.
“Slashing Rush” can no longer Execute.
“Slashing Rush” now costs 65 stamina (was 12 stamina).
“Slashing Rush” no longer has extra stamina costs when missed or parried.


Developer Comments: “Slashing Rush” is basically like a backwards Zone Attack, and there were a lot of times where it seemed you wanted the backward version, but got the forward version accidentally. This felt bad and is now fixed.

The reason that “Slashing Rush” can no longer execute and has higher stamina costs is to unify it more with the forward Zone Attack – and if you’re using Slashing Rush you probably are using it to escape, and don’t want to get locked into the Execution Window.

“Head Crusher”


“Head Crusher” no longer gets stuck in the run portion if the opponent is dodging backward.
To lessen the cases where “Head Crusher” whiffs,
Short range leap now starts at 3.5m (was 4.0m).
Medium range leap now starts at 5.8m (was 7.0m).
Long range leap now starts at 7.8m (was 9.0m).


Developer Comments: Before the leap portion, there is a run portion that is meant to close distance - this run generally gets skipped because the opponent is close enough to start the leap. However, the leap could not start at all if the opponent was dodging backward, which caused the Berserker to run forward way too far and be vulnerable. Now, Berserker doesn't check if the opponent is dodging backward anymore, and will just start the leap if close enough.

The range reduction is to reduce the number of cases where the Berserker would whiff and land right in front of the target. While this does represent a slight range reduction, the improved likelihood of actually leaping at a time that this attack will hit the target should help the Berserker.


Out of Lock Attacks


Out of Lock Attacks now have Uninterruptible Stance and Unblockable properties to match the functionality of the Locked attacks.



Throws


Forward Throw now does 0 damage (was 8) and 20 stamina damage (was 40).
Side and Back Throws now do 0 damage (were 8).
Side and Back Throws still do the regular 20 stamina damage, same as all characters' throws.
Side and Back Throws no longer Unbalance the opponent if the Throw itself reduces them to 0 stamina. It now only Unbalances if the opponent was at 0 stamina before the Throw (this now makes it consistent with other heroes’ throws).


Developer Comments: Currently, the Berserkers have an extremely powerful Out Of Stamina punish (Throw Forward, Side Heavy, Top Heavy Finisher). Since we gave the Berserker better tools for regular combat, and Berserkers aren’t built to manipulate the stamina of their opponent, we feel this is an area Berserker is currently unnecessarily strong and can handle a nerf.

Parry’s Counter-attack Light (“Skilled Slash”)


Added Uninterruptible Stance to “Skilled Slash”.
Moved “Skilled Slash” timing to 400ms after the Parry (was 300ms), for improved ease of input.


Developer Comments: Giving it Uninterruptible Stance is mostly meant to continue the Berserker theme onto this move, and make it slightly more advantageous in-group fights.


Block Reactions


Removed an ability to counter-attack after blocking a light after 200ms. Now Berserker must wait for the end of the Block Stun before attacking, like every other character.

Developer Comments: Different block reaction timings have to be used with extreme caution – since this isn’t part of the Berserker theme, we standardize it.


Dodge Cancel


Removed Dodge cancel from Light Attack Opener strikes.
Removed Dodge cancel from Heavy Attacks starting from the 2nd in Dance of the Paired Blades.
Gave Light Opener's miss recoveries the ability to branch to Zone Attack (as other miss recoveries already have).
Dodge Cancels can now only be performed while Berserker has Stamina.


Developer Comments: The dodge cancels were removed because they were causing Flicker and rollback issues on the shortest attacks.

To compensate, we allow whiffed Light Openers to branch to Zone Attacks - an ability that Berserker already had on other attacks. This should allow the Berserker to continue to be unpredictable, while showing a clean and fair user interface to the opponent.

PDXGorechild
02-09-2018, 11:22 PM
Not gonna quote that, but thanks UbiInsulin, there are a lot of things to remember :’)

Bracus_Maximus
02-09-2018, 11:34 PM
as a zerker main i have to disagree. im not saying the changes are bad and of course we cant know for sure until we try them out but from what i see on paper i am a bit disappointed.

we gained some speed and a better chance to land some lights and in general it made his feint game a tiny bit more dangerous and we gained two unblockables.

the first unblockable is the top heavy finisher which is so slow that even without the unblockable status it almost always triggers a reaction. people already know to expect a feint into GB or light and still have plenty of time to parry/dodge if you let it flow. on the other hand we lost 25 damage from this attack which is really bad imo. the oos punish is now 33 damage less and that top heavy was zerker best trade, now you are going to be trading for 30 damage.

the second unblockable (with the damage increase to supposedly balance the top heavy damage loss) is the 3rd side heavy which, lets be honest, is kinda useless. when was the last time you managed to land 3 consecutive heavies. even if you got to that point you most like used that heavy for a feint. its not impossible but it is unlikely. you could whiff the 1st, trade the 2nd and then go for the 3rd and still your best bet is a feint. is it a bit better since the unblockable status forces a reaction? yes. is it a game changer buff? no.

we lost a bit of damage in the openers which are more likely to hit and gained a bit of damage in the chained hits that are more unlikely to hit, combine that with the heavy damage changes and you 'll see that while in theory the zerkers damage may seem higher or equal than before in practice i think its actually going to be lower. we lost the dodge cancel on openers which btw is not useless and we lost a bit of damage and stamina damage from the throws. we also lost the ability to counter attack after blocking a light.

again this is just on paper we dont really know how it actually plays but it seems we are trading more than we should for two (easily predictable) unblockables and a bit faster lights

I completely agree. Just wrote the same things in an other post

mleonard3090
02-09-2018, 11:49 PM
I'm waiting for the release to make my final judgement but I am a little confused on one thing.

In regards to the heavy heavy heavy combo, the last heavy is unlockable no matter what but if the last heavy is top, does it only do 30 dmg?

If that's the case, why not make that 3rd heavy, when from the top, do at least 45 dmg?

FrappeWarrior
02-10-2018, 09:49 AM
I'm waiting for the release to make my final judgement but I am a little confused on one thing.

In regards to the heavy heavy heavy combo, the last heavy is unlockable no matter what but if the last heavy is top, does it only do 30 dmg?

If that's the case, why not make that 3rd heavy, when from the top, do at least 45 dmg?

that is correct. only the 3rd side finisher does 45 dmg. the top finisher does 30 no matter when it comes. having the unblockables is great even though the 3rd side one is rarely used, but the damage nerf on hit top heavy which is one of zerkes most useful (if not the most useful) attacks is too much. 40-45 would be a much better choice. yes its easier to access but considering that it will be mostly used for opening turtles a.k.a. force parry/dodge feint into mix up and how slow it is, it should be more rewarding when we actually manage to land it. not to mention it was zerker best trading attack, now trading for 30 damage is just not worth it. we actually lost a great tool there.

S0Mi_xD
02-10-2018, 12:22 PM
I didn't see you guys mention this, maybe you did: The light parry punish got a pretty big nerf.

If you didn't know, in most cases, when you parried a light, you could backstep into "Skilled Slash" (I didn't know it had a name, just knew it was really fast) to whiff it into a Top Heavy Finisher, instead of a raw top heavy from neutral.

Now, Skilled Slash is slower by 100ms, and Top Heavy Finisher damage is reduced.

The other buffs I think more than make up for this, just something to consider.

Maybe this ability is not lost - but i guess it will have no real use.
I answered you in the other thread and mentioned some Parry follow ups :)