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Sauronbaine
02-06-2018, 10:22 PM
I dont think ive EVER been as rage induced in For Honor.

Ive fought Peacekeeper in beta and on release. She was broken then.

Ive fought Centurion when his jabs could keep you against the wall for an infinite combo.


Ive fought SHinoobi's release where he was just dumb. Hes still annoying but not as bad as he used to be.


Ive fought raiders SB when it was broken.


But ive NEVER been as angry with For Honor as I am with a shaman.

I.... I dont understand why she is out the way she is. She's not balanced and no one can argue that in her current state, she is.

HazelrahFirefly
02-06-2018, 10:30 PM
Difficulty is subjective.

Shaman is not even in my top five anymore of challenge. She's still great, but she's been nerfed too hard. At least they are fixing the headbutt dash in thr next patch.

Now, Aramusha on the other hand... /rage

Sauronbaine
02-06-2018, 10:34 PM
Difficulty is subjective.

Shaman is not even in my top five anymore of challenge. She's still great, but she's been nerfed too hard. At least they are fixing the headbutt dash in thr next patch.

Now, Aramusha on the other hand... /rage


Whats your secret then? I need help.

She has so many tools at her disposal and HUGE HP for an assassin. I dont know what to do against her.

She has shugoki hug, but better. PK leap, but better. Her OOS punish is insane. She doesn't take much stamina loss from a missed leap or a canceled attack. Shes an assassin t hat can cancel her unblockable attack. Her throw is dumb as hell and she gets a free bite from it.

I dont understand how you have no trouble but I am. She has everything the others have, but improved.



It's probably her bite and her throw distance. Were it not for these two, I'd wager you wouldn't feel just as pissed.

Also, bugged Wildcat Rage indicators.

Its her entire kit with her humongous HP. I actually wanna know exact numbers cause I feel she is tankier than the Centurion.

Sauronbaine
02-06-2018, 10:49 PM
Not sure about exact HP and stamina pools, I just know she has max assassin HP. But I can send you her framedata:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOO1wBHKvrA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5Qjg8BDfJo

And, you might find this thread useful, it's a thread where I and others contributed to useful info on how to counter Shaman in general:

https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1795611-Countering-Shaman-(both-pre-nerf-and-post-nerf)

It seems even you mention shes a bit strong in her current iteration, in comparison to the other heroes.

Sauronbaine
02-06-2018, 11:06 PM
She is. Insane soft feints, insane ground coverage, throw distance, and the relative ease of landing a bleed, and the relative safety of Predator's Mercy. And some other things.

Combine all these together, you get one hella overtuned hero. Not uncounterable; but pretty stronk nonetheless.

I never said she was uncounterable, but she is by far way too strong in compairons. The person playing her would have to be pretty terrible to lose.

Sauronbaine
02-06-2018, 11:17 PM
Yeah, she's very noob-friendly, and relatively easy to dish out damage to an enemy. Guaranteed damage, that is.

With the coming parry changes, she won't be able to GB > throw > bite out of a parry, so at least that. If she wants to bite, she'll have to work on a headbutt wallsplat, or earn the GB.

Which character do you use btw? Shugo?

I use alot of different characters.

Centurion is my highest but I dont play him anymore, due to most people knowing how to fighth im.

Im generally playing Kensei, Conq, Highlander and Warden as of late.

Sometimesi ll throw a shugoki in there if I feel liek I wanna **** around and play Love Train.

Sauronbaine
02-06-2018, 11:26 PM
Kensei, Highlander and Warden are all pretty good at countering Shaman. Each with different techniques. You mostly need to focus on counterattacks, rather than direct attacks. I'm a Warden main, so pretty sure everything I shared in the thread linked above will prove useful, since it was all from a Warden perspective of things.

Not sure about Conq. I barely use him, and he relies a lot on the shield bash, which is, like Cent's kick and Warden's SB, pretty risky against Shaman.

Shugo is a special case. He's meant to trade. Your only problem with Shaman is consecutive hits, because consecutive hits will remove the hyperarmor and will stagger you out of your attack. And definitely play Love Train with Shaman. They're the only two heroes with 'deadly hugs'. It couldn't go any better. :p

Either way. Shaman is still a superior character to pretty much everyone. She needs a HP nerf at the very least if shes going to keep her tools.

As for Love Train, its a song by the O'Jays... I love older music and its perfect.

Sauronbaine
02-06-2018, 11:37 PM
She needs:

- Reduced throw distance
- Fix on her Wildcat Rage bugged indicators
- All her Wildcat Rage attacks should have same attack speed
- Predator's Mercy should cost half her stamina bar. Two consecutive missed attempts will render her OOS
- She shouldn't be able to feint/cancel Predator's Mercy

I think her leap heavy shouldn't be as strong as it is... since it comes from all directions and is the fastest leap in the game...((Might be on par with the leap of glad?))

Hormly
02-07-2018, 12:05 AM
Shaman is a luadicrous character for sure, she should have prebuff shinobi HP to pay for her kit

PecarCZ
02-07-2018, 01:01 AM
Can say me how can Highlander counter shaman because he is super slow vs she.Every his attacks/moves is too slow and too easy punish.

Hormly
02-07-2018, 02:35 AM
- She shouldn't be able to feint/cancel Predator's Mercy

This

HazelrahFirefly
02-07-2018, 03:46 AM
This

I disagree. Both her and the Ara can keep their feinting jumps BUT, at the cost of more stamina and a delaying animation. In the Shaman's case she should reach down, dig her hands into the earth and come to a jerky stop. Not blip to the normal as it is now.

Tyrjo
02-07-2018, 08:55 AM
I also don't get how her dodge heavy is not punishable with a GB on block. Given how good it is and given that it can come from a soft feint. There simply has to be some drawbacks with her kit, and there isn't right now.

Mini1900
02-07-2018, 10:25 AM
I love how shaman-players come around with blabla ! Shaman in 1v1 no problem ATALL.
Shaman in dominion VERY BIG PROBLEM,
Pradator hunger: the most maps has close zones, means walls, hols etc. An small and fast assassin can throw you very far and shortcut the throw with predatorhunger which mean she push you against wall ( if u have luck and there is no hole ), and dat animation give a lotof time to others to freely hit you ( u stay in 3v1 ,and shaman just use pradatorhunter again and again and again , and u cant just stay there and get hits by others ). And since a few heroes make u bleed, has shaman very easy job to just use mercy and how u wanna dodge that jump when u fight a gang. And if u luck once, she can easily jump one more. Most shaman players r too aggrasive , this means shaman looks like not dat strong, she get parry becaus she usually attack first, But this doesnt mean atall that she is weak, i played shaman too , i had like 21 kills in dominion becaus i used brain instead of attack too much around. Wild cat rage, in most gang fights easy HIT, which give u execution if last hit ( one of imbalanced things of her, near every attack is a daaaamn heavy ) And she has very imbalanced FEATS aswell . U stay in zone for 3 min, u can make the zone to a landmine zone.
Something should change for sure. She acutally has 0 negative thing. HP : like most heroes , attacks : what should i say , tooooo many, maybe a gladiator is in her lvl , Throw : an assassin with throwrange more than most heroes in game, aaand bloodtrance : like i said in 4v4 ,u acutally blood most time, dat hunger which heals her and and and and .... .

Card1acArrest
02-07-2018, 11:32 AM
Fady, I've seen advise on how to parry the second of the lights, but do you need to block the first to parry the second? ..do you know?

Takuram
02-07-2018, 01:12 PM
Ok man, I'll try to help you out here.

You didn't specify exactly what your problem is, but judging from your comments, you're trying to counter her by reacting to her moves. DON'T.

I'm a pretty good shaman myself ( rep 13 with her right now ) and I know she can be intimidating with such a complete moveset ( however, in the words of a wise frind of mine, "Shaman has the most complete moveset, Gladiator has the best moveset ).

One of your characthers is Kensei, exactly one of the hardests matchups for the shaman.

The best counter you can go with a shaman is to not be defensive! I know it's hard to get used to this with the game meta and all those months of defending ftw, but that's the way it goes.
If u let Shaman do what she's best at, I'll lose, or have a really hard time.

Be agressive. Shaman shines when she is on offensive, but it's rather poor with defensive tools. Just watch out for her side dodge heavy, and parry that ****.

If she retreats for a wildcat's hunger or rage, throw a light when she comes. Keep in mind shaman has no super armor.

Trade damage with her. She doesn't have heavy hitters, except the bite and her neutral heavies.

Go on offensive. I can't state this enough. She dodges backwards, u dodge forward. Don't give her space. Throw lights in the air.

Also, when she is about to jump and u don't know if she is going for a predator's hunger or wildcat's rage, watch for her arms. If they're on the ground, it's predators hunger, if they're on the air, she's about to strike, so DODGE AND PUNISH.

"But what about when she's close range? I get confused!"

Don't try to block the heavies or parry. Her mixups are too good and intensive. She raises a heavy, who cares what shell do? Throw a fast light and interrupt her!

HazelrahFirefly
02-07-2018, 03:11 PM
Ive found Kensei to be THE hardest matchup for my Shaman (only rep 1). I just can't get in on him, and yeah that means that the Nobushi is the second hardest.

Think of the Shaman as a wild dog (she kinda is) and you just gotta keep batting her away.

Knight_Raime
02-07-2018, 04:10 PM
She needs:

- Reduced throw distance
- Fix on her Wildcat Rage bugged indicators
- All her Wildcat Rage attacks should have same attack speed
- Predator's Mercy should cost half her stamina bar. Two consecutive missed attempts will render her OOS
- She shouldn't be able to feint/cancel Predator's Mercy

~I can get behind the throw distance nerf. if purely for reducing her ledging ability.

~all bugs should be fixed yes.

~Not sure. I think the bugged indicators and lack of lag compensation make these more frustrating than they really are.
(from your perspective) left is 500ms. right is 600ms. and top is 700ms. Centurion uses 600ms heavies uncharged. 700+ is where most hero heavies sit and is mostly reactable to by most people. On top of the indicators and lack of lag comp I think people still haven't figured out when to react. She always leaps half way between where she ended up from dashing (forward or back) to you. If she's close enough to get hit by bushi's pokes you should absolutely have enough time to see the dash in coming and react. I could see normalizing if it's still an issue after indicators are fixed and lag comp is on. but not until then.

~I can't agree. She's already highly punished from an untechable GB if it missed. If she's got the space to do 2 pred mercy attempts neither her placement nor her enemies were great. Further more there isn't a reason for such thing. Goki loses stamina and health because he's got OHK potential and his armor+inherent health pool give him a vastly bigger potential HP pool. Essentially speaking goki is punished harder because he gets more out of it. Shaman's values are fixed. If her bite is an issue than nerf the values of her bite (stamina, health, damage)

~Absolutely not. If she could not cancel/feint her bite/pounce it would never land. Goki's never lands without a guarantee. You'd be forcing her to turtle up for a parry. Which isn't going to work once season 5 drops and GB's are removed from parries. Her entire mix up with pounce/bite is started from a setup animation. She has to dash forward or backward to start it. In that entire instance you can punish her. and if she's too far to be punished then you have ample time seeing it come in to understand what's happening.

Shaman needs tweaks. these are not the ones she needs or deserves.

Sauronbaine
02-07-2018, 10:15 PM
Actually I lied. Peacekeeper still engrages me.

Alustar.
02-07-2018, 10:35 PM
Fair point, bugged indicators + no dedi's and no lag comp system are making her leap attacks much more frustrating than what they could really be. Best to wait till after dedi's and lag comp and fixed indicators, then we'll see whether all her leap attacks should need same speeds.



On these two points, I take it you're considering mostly a Duel scenario; in which case I would agree that it would be past the 'fair' border and slightly into punishment territory. However, consider 4v4s as well. In 4v4s, spamming Predator's Mercy (which can also be activated upon any bleed status inflicted by any teammate or any trap/bomb) is extremely easy, and safe.

Shugoki's Demon Embrace can only OHK if he's got less than 1 bar left; in which case, a quick light will often kill him if he's activating DE without resorting to wallsplat. In the case of a wallsplat, this is the cheesiest move in the game, equal to ledging. Granted, he loses health, but upon reaching critical health he will no longer lose health and can go for a OHK move all he wants. I think in overall Demon's Embrace is still poorly optimized. Hence why I often avoid comparing it to Shaman's Predator Mercy.

Shugoki can only be punished harder because his DE is slower and much more reactable, and cannot be spammed consecutively. Shaman's bite is fast, can be chained consecutively, and there are no self-penalties. An HP drain wouldn't make sense on an Assassin, that's why I felt a stamina drain made sense.

Stamina drain on Predator Mercy isn't a direct nerf; I think her HP gain, stamina regen, and damage dealt should remain the same if the bite lands. Rather than nerfing the bite itself, I'm simply suggesting to make it less spammable, and that Shaman needs to actively dedicate herself to the move rather than safely spam it again and again.

Concerning the feint/cancel: They would land a bleed, feint the bite to bait a dodge, then land a guaranteed bite. Shaman no longer dedicates herself to the move. Zero bad outcomes unless the second bite misses (which is unlikely, given the dodge recovery). Her opponent's only chance would be to attack right as she's making the bite animation. Which doesn't always guarantee to knock her out of it. Her bite can still land safely on GB > throw because Predator's Hunger / Mercy is guaranteed on GB.

The only drawback I see with the removal of feint/cancel capability is whether Shaman will still have time to bait or GB her opponent before the bleed runs out, after the recent parry changes. My point is, I'm suggesting some sort of disadvantage in her kit. Outside of not having any hyperarmor, she doesn't really have weaknesses.

Direct nerfs to values won't help; they would literally ruin her. But making her deadliest move needing dedication and timing, is a better trade.

As a player who plays shaman in 4s I have first hand knowledge that mercy/hunger are NOT safe. You can get hit out of this ability even by an allies stray attack. With no hyper armor to keep her in the animation, this move is horribly risky even if you are in a 2v1 favoring your group.
Hunger is a little safer, in that you aren't locked into a prolonged animation. And really! The only time I've found myself hitting more than one hunger back to back is when I'm helping another player take out a turtle.

Sauronbaine
02-07-2018, 10:35 PM
She actually needs some buffs; she has nothing going for her other than light pokes, zone (when not blocked) and GB > triple stab.

I know how light pokes are infuriating if there's lag or latency. Glad's side lights and Shinobi side lights are just as bad.

I find Glad lights easier to handle than PK or Shinoobi. But you also have to keep in mind, Pk has the advantage with her lights cause you had to keep your thing on the right for her unreactable zone so her lights are even more powerful.

I just dont know how to counter her. I cant parry her lights since they are too fast and I dont play characters with super fast lights except Orochi, so I cant go on the aggressive side


And I disagree on her buffs. Shes still A tier. Lights alone put her there.

Sauronbaine
02-07-2018, 10:37 PM
As for the Shaman, im trying to be more aggressive with my characters, but those side dodges with heavies are so lethal.

Alustar.
02-07-2018, 10:49 PM
Well if you're surrounded by Raiders / LBs who swing wide, you're just in bad luck if you're getting stunned out of it everytime, hah. Yes there's no hyperarmor, but timed properly it can land just fine if there's the slightest bleed status on an enemy.

Also, you're the supportive team-centric type. You play in a more team-oriented way. You don't go out of your way to fling attacks left and right, caring solely about takedowns. It's those people who, when they use Shaman, will resort to Predator Mercy firsthand. It eventually lands.

My point is that regardless of it landing, all you've done of sacrifice your health to hold down an opponent as your team wails on him, and you.
I don't use mercy/hunger indiscriminately because I have the experience that tells me I'm going to pay for it. And no, it's not just if you are surrounded by Raiders or Lawbringers throwing out stray hits. The groups I've run with Gore, if I don't call out when I'm leaping in, I run the risk of getting hit by my own team mate. Which means no health/stamina regen, and chances are I'm now close to death.
It's because of these that this move is not considered safe, even in a group fight favoring your team.

The reason I'm more reserved with my attacks in groups is because of this knowledge. Out of 6 mercy attempts in any given group match, I might get 2 confirmed, and that's if I made it known I was leaping.

Sauronbaine
02-07-2018, 10:51 PM
Statistically, I believe Shinobi's double side lights deal the most damage. PK only seems more powerful because of the small dagger that you have to pay attention to. It's only a visual trick.

Parrying PK and Shinobi lights and parrying PK zone are from the hardest things to do in this game, don't drag yourself down too much. It's ok if you cannot, it's very demanding. It takes a lot of focus + some knee-jerk reaction.

Most PKs I've met will wait for you to attack, so they do a dodge attack, sometimes a bleed, continue with a light or two, or feint a heavy into GB. If the GB fails, they rinse and repeat. If the stalemate starts to get a bit long as you're waiting for her to attack too, she'll do side pokes, sometimes zone. That's how she plays, basically. It's not that she's hard, it's that she requires high reaction time.

Meaning that unless im some kind of God at video games, im essientially never gonna be able to play against them. This is why I cant stand PK's. I have to be significantly better than her to win. I

Alustar.
02-07-2018, 11:21 PM
Well I dunno. I've seen and experienced my fair share of Shamans who land the bite relatively often in Dominion. Could just be my bad luck and they don't get interrupted out of it.

My entire argument was, even if Shaman's bite misses/gets interrupted, there is no apparent disadvantage in Shaman's entire kit (other than not having any hyperarmor). What I've been suggesting are ways to introduce at least 1 disadvantage (without nerfing her), aimed at her deadliest move obviously, to make her dedicate herself to it more, and be able to spam it less.

But I digress. Around this specific hero, there are so many numerous differing opinions within the playerbase. I myself don't see her as overpowered; she's rather overtuned, because no apparent disadvantages. She's very counterable, don't get me wrong. And I like the challenge. What I personally view as unfair is that her deadliest move is very safe (outside of getting interrupted by teammates). And her bugged indicators, obviously.

Unless you are out of range when the attack misses, you get a free GB, as with another control effects. And that's with both WCR and the hunger/mercy forms. Blocking WCR is a bad idea because of soft feint, rose are designed to throw off turtles.
If shaman aren't getting interrupted, that's either good coordination of a premade group that knows what they are doing.

To review, on a confirmed mercy, you get a bar of health back, and full stamina. Given the risk incurred in 4s and the lack of any protecting from external attacks(friendly or otherwise) this is adequate.

It's also important to now that mercy cannot be spammed due to it consuming the bleed. Once you get your bite, that's it. Rinse and repeat.

Alustar.
02-08-2018, 12:39 AM
You're saying, they intentionally made those WCR indicators bugged, on top of each side having a different speed? because we should dodge it and if we turtle up and attempt to block we get punished? :S



Nah I rarely meet premades in Dominion. It was all random teams. I've met premades like three times maybe. I meet more premades in Brawl.



From a 4v4 perspective, yes. No hyperarmor, so risky to dish out in group fight because you'll get interrupted. In 1v1s it falls solely on the opponent to either stagger Shaman, or dodge the bite. More often than not, the stagger will fail because there won't be a proper window. And upon dodging, if Shaman feinted it, it will become a 100% guaranteed bite on the followup bite. Hence why my suggestion in my previous post.



I think you misunderstood me a bit. What I inferred to by spammable, is that upon missing the first attempt, it can be directly thrown out again, consecutively. Up to three times until the bleed status runs out.
I like to think, they intentionally made it so that she can lunge 3 times before the bleed runs out. She's the very first hero in the game who can dish out a deadly unblockable that also pins you, drains your HP, regens her HP, and leaves you vulnerable for other things, 3 times in a row. Hence why taken as unfair.

The wild cats rage soft feint can only happen after the initial hit. You feint the follow up attack(because any follow up is parry bait) the bugged indicators I'm not even getting into. I don't have any data on that outside what's said in the forums, and if the devs have said they are fixing it, then a single patch and the dedicated servers will alleviate this on its own..
My meaning was that from the ground up, it is designed to break deal defense. Look at its properties:
A leaping heavy that closes gaps that has multi directional input, (mix up mind games) It can be hard feinted, or soft feinted into the hunger/mercy attacks. The only people who I've seen block/parry consistently it are higher mmr players. More over, what messes with me the most, aren't the players that do block it. It's the ones who side step it and grab me. It is far more effective in my experience to side step the gap closer, regardless of if it's WCR or the hungry/mercy attacks, because you get a free GB. Even off of a missed predators mercy, if you side step it she WILL NOT recover in time and launch again to prevent a GB. That's why Raime said in a 1v1 is not always that safe.

Yes it was an intentional design mechanic, while in a blood trance only, she can follow up. Shaman can also move between wild cats rage and mercy in the event of a miss. In fact, THAT is what should be done, if you miss a mercy, follow up with WCR. But as I said, typically if you miss that first one, the opponent can and should GB you, preventing any follow up.

Knight_Raime
02-08-2018, 01:20 AM
Fair point, bugged indicators + no dedi's and no lag comp system are making her leap attacks much more frustrating than what they could really be. Best to wait till after dedi's and lag comp and fixed indicators, then we'll see whether all her leap attacks should need same speeds.



On these two points, I take it you're considering mostly a Duel scenario; in which case I would agree that it would be past the 'fair' border and slightly into punishment territory. However, consider 4v4s as well. In 4v4s, spamming Predator's Mercy (which can also be activated upon any bleed status inflicted by any teammate or any trap/bomb) is extremely easy, and safe.

Shugoki's Demon Embrace can only OHK if he's got less than 1 bar left; in which case, a quick light will often kill him if he's activating DE without resorting to wallsplat. In the case of a wallsplat, this is the cheesiest move in the game, equal to ledging. Granted, he loses health, but upon reaching critical health he will no longer lose health and can go for a OHK move all he wants. I think in overall Demon's Embrace is still poorly optimized. Hence why I often avoid comparing it to Shaman's Predator Mercy.

Shugoki can only be punished harder because his DE is slower and much more reactable, and cannot be spammed consecutively. Shaman's bite is fast, can be chained consecutively, and there are no self-penalties. An HP drain wouldn't make sense on an Assassin, that's why I felt a stamina drain made sense.

Stamina drain on Predator Mercy isn't a direct nerf; I think her HP gain, stamina regen, and damage dealt should remain the same if the bite lands. Rather than nerfing the bite itself, I'm simply suggesting to make it less spammable, and that Shaman needs to actively dedicate herself to the move rather than safely spam it again and again.

Concerning the feint/cancel: They would land a bleed, feint the bite to bait a dodge, then land a guaranteed bite. Shaman no longer dedicates herself to the move. Zero bad outcomes unless the second bite misses (which is unlikely, given the dodge recovery). Her opponent's only chance would be to attack right as she's making the bite animation. Which doesn't always guarantee to knock her out of it. Her bite can still land safely on GB > throw because Predator's Hunger / Mercy is guaranteed on GB.

The only drawback I see with the removal of feint/cancel capability is whether Shaman will still have time to bait or GB her opponent before the bleed runs out, after the recent parry changes. My point is, I'm suggesting some sort of disadvantage in her kit. Outside of not having any hyperarmor, she doesn't really have weaknesses.

Direct nerfs to values won't help; they would literally ruin her. But making her deadliest move needing dedication and timing, is a better trade.

Just jumping on a bleeding opponent in 4's doesn't seem smart when both allies and enemies can hit you out of it.
If this suggestion was mostly to cull the "spam" of mercy then i'd rather they just remove allies being able to proc bleed for her to bite. as in a group scenario with universal blocking when you block/parry an attack shaman will have a tough time getting bleed without a GB or deflect.
They could also remove the ability to initiate a bite attempt after whiffing once.
I'd also be fine with them front loading some recovery to a whiffed bite.
Hell i'd even be fine if they made it so you had to cancel at specific times (ala warden SB nerf forever ago)
But I can't agree to removing her ability to feint it.

In your scenario during her feint she's stuck. she can easily eat an attack. In the time it takes her to dodge forward or back to initiate the bite I can respond with a fast enough attack. Or I can move away. If bite could be done from a stand still after bleed then I feel you. But as is she needs to dash for it even if she's going to feint. the timing on reacting to her doing so is admittingly tight. but it's still more than possible.

But to not leave you empty handed here is a list of changes i'd make to her with your complaints in mind:
~remove splat on pounce
~normalize bleed pokes/wildcats rages if the fixes to the bugs and lag comp are not enough.
~fix her bugs.
~nerf throw distance.
~remove being able to que a mercy after a missed one.
~Longer recovery on missed mercy.
~bleed from allies no longer procs mercy.

Jiblet2017
02-08-2018, 01:33 AM
Rep 40 pk here. I get that PK van definitely be frustrating with her lights and zone - but they certainly are not what make her top tier.

PK is considered top tier in duels mostly for her reactive play. In duels - the fight is much more deliberate than in modes like dominion. PK is able to utilize her relatively safe moveset (quick recovery dodges and attacks) to interrupt or punish an opponent's attacks for high damage.

In duel I can do very well utilizing parry/deflect and the (very) occasional dodge heavy to get to an opponent. However, my heavy into GB is reactable and my heavy into light must come out from the same side as my heavy. Beyond that - if an opponent just stares and guards for the zone im left with hard feint mixups. Against an accomplished turtle with a good connection, it takes a very long time to whittle someone down.

In modes like dominion, You don't have the luxury of reactive (and relatively safe) play, as you often need to finish people quickly. In my opinion - this is where PK falls short. Opening up a good defensive player when time is of the essence. That being said, I think there are other characters that could probably use tweaking before pk. I would be in favor of a rework instead of a straight buff to make her kit more variable (with branching options) like shamans.

Sauronbaine
02-08-2018, 01:37 AM
Rep 40 pk here. I get that PK van definitely be frustrating with her lights and zone - but they certainly are not what make her top tier.

PK is considered top tier in duels mostly for her reactive play. In duels - the fight is much more deliberate than in modes like dominion. PK is able to utilize her relatively safe moveset (quick recovery dodges and attacks) to interrupt or punish an opponent's attacks for high damage.

In duel I can do very well utilizing parry/deflect and the (very) occasional dodge heavy to get to an opponent. However, my heavy into GB is reactable and my heavy into light must come out from the same side as my heavy. Beyond that - if an opponent just stares and guards for the zone im left with hard feint mixups. Against an accomplished turtle with a good connection, it takes a very long time to whittle someone down.

In modes like dominion, You don't have the luxury of reactive (and relatively safe) play, as you often need to finish people quickly. In my opinion - this is where PK falls short. Opening up a good defensive player when time is of the essence. That being said, I think there are other characters that could probably use tweaking before pk. I would be in favor of a rework instead of a straight buff to make her kit more variable (with branching options) like shamans.

I play Duel/Brawls pretty much only. I dont like team based games.


PK is still a bane of my existence.

JadeBosson.
02-08-2018, 04:45 AM
The best way to kill shaman imo is be aggressive she can't kill you if she can't hit you

Jiblet2017
02-08-2018, 04:53 AM
I play Duel/Brawls pretty much only. I dont like team based games.


PK is still a bane of my existence.

Those are definitely her strongest modes. I had a lot of trouble when I played in the city on my TV. Then I got a low latency monitor and a wired connection and it made things much easier.

I also realized it's safer to simply block instead of parry on lights. Lastly, recognizing the point at which she can no longer feint her heavy is important - as it takes away most of her mixup game. After the blade is parallel to her torso (on side heavies) or her shoulder ( on top heavies) - you know the PK is letting the heavy fly and you should still have time to parry.

I feel your pain. I really struggled against PK in season 1 and was inspired to pick her up. Do you struggle against shaman as well or is it just PK's animation style and speed?

Vakris_One
02-08-2018, 05:11 AM
I find Glad lights easier to handle than PK or Shinoobi. But you also have to keep in mind, Pk has the advantage with her lights cause you had to keep your thing on the right for her unreactable zone so her lights are even more powerful.

I just dont know how to counter her. I cant parry her lights since they are too fast and I dont play characters with super fast lights except Orochi, so I cant go on the aggressive side


And I disagree on her buffs. Shes still A tier. Lights alone put her there.
Use Kensei's top light to keep her on her toes. It's quite fast and has more range than any of PK's strikes. A lot of players get caught off guard by Kensei's range and fall prey to his quick top light which they assumed wouldn't reach them. You have to practice with knowing exactly when you are in range and they are not however. Bait her parry attempts with feinting heavies into lights - the Kensei has some of the fastest transitions from hard cancelled heavies into lights. If she dodge strikes often then feint into GB to catch her.

Warden can force a reaction from her by feinting shoulder bash and playing a bit of a mind game with her. His top light can be used as a poke every now and then, especially if she's guarding for your zone a lot.

Conq, I'm not all that up to scratch on vs PK.


As for the Shaman, im trying to be more aggressive with my characters, but those side dodges with heavies are so lethal.
Bait them out with feints. One of the best characters to play against her is Kensei as he can punish her over-reliance on aggression. Sensei Kensei feeds off of counter attacking aggressive play because it lets him open up into his mixups. Between his top light, his helm splitter for negating her dodge backs, his dodge strikes leading into his mixups and regular old feints he can make a Shaman feel quite drunk.

Knight_Raime
02-08-2018, 01:49 PM
@Fady

If I can actually find the time to make it lmao.
I haven't played for honor in awhile since monster hunter dropped. It's been all i've been playing.
But I just beat the true final boss. I'll probably wait till season 5 drops to dig into shaman for the guide.

Just for clarification sake. You're saying that She can attempt a bite twice from one bleed proc.
But if she whiffs a bite during a bleed she can only follow it up with a wild cats rage?
That's a very interesting suggestion actually.

I'm not sure we would need to add both a reduced feint window AND extra recovery.
I did bring up both suggestions. But i'm not so sure how well the former one would work.
As the whole animation while long is combined with a dodge. her animation after the dodge is 400ms.
asking someone to try to cancel in a 200ms window just seems absurd.
imo it would be better for the recovery to be there on whiff of bite. BUT if she decides to immediately hit heavy to do WCR the recovery wouldn't be there until after that attack has whiffed.
So they're forced to commit on that. Or deal with the recovery on the whiffed bite but potentially not be punished due to poor positioning. If this is what you were saying (besides the feint thing that I started commenting on) then I apologize. it's 7am for me and i've not yet slept.

I agree with the rest of the list though. especially if my understanding/suggestions in this reply are with it.

Alustar.
02-08-2018, 08:38 PM
I still have to buy MHW myself; pretty psyched for it. Already tried it out at a friend's and it's super well done. It has many similarities with MH4U, which I like. Helps to cement the familiarities better and faster. It's not an entirely alien MH game.

And yes, upon missing Predator's Mercy, she may choose to do a WCR followup which guarantees a heavy, and saves her from being punished upon missing the bite, but she won't deal bite damage and she won't regen HP. Or, she can re-attempt the bite; at which point, the recovery from the first bite attempt becomes increased till she can lunge again, and upon the missed second bite attempt, the recovery window will be large enough for any punish, and she cannot do a followup WCR to save herself again. It's a logical trade-off.

You're right about the reduced feint window, it would be somewhere around 200ms which is super tight and most likely won't work.

Looking forward to seeing constructive threads from you, whenever you get the time. And if you ever need some assistance, shoot a message, maybe I can help.

To clarify, I want to go on Trevor at saying the recovery for Mercy should remain as is, even when followed up, you still have the threat of getting GB out of it. I know if my mercy muses, even if I immediately follow it up with a WCR or another mercy, I'm going to get GB out.

Though, I do like the idea behind switching up mercy/WCR and reducing recoveries if you follow up with a different attack.
I just feel there is plenty of time, so long as you positions yourself right, to grab her out of any follow-up attacks.

Sauronbaine
02-08-2018, 08:49 PM
Jeezus. Look at the stream. PK is REALLY good. Top tier defintely.

Alustar.
02-08-2018, 08:58 PM
Jeezus. Look at the stream. PK is REALLY good. Top tier defintely.

As a former PK player, I have to say she only performs as well as she does because of her lights. And those aren't enough, that's a crutch. She needs a rework. I much prefer shaman now with her options.

Sauronbaine
02-08-2018, 09:06 PM
As a former PK player, I have to say she only performs as well as she does because of her lights. And those aren't enough, that's a crutch. She needs a rework. I much prefer shaman now with her options.

i cna agree with you. Her lights are really really broken.

I mean if you look at hte stream, PK is the most talked about, the most used... its ridic.