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View Full Version : OROCHI; a bit of an overnerf



Playing_Mantis
02-06-2018, 08:40 AM
Ok, i love the parry changes but really with the fact that orochi top light attacks are way harder to land than other classes directional attacks, 32 to 22 damage is just way too much. 30% is way too much with how hard it is to land. i think 26 or 27 would be more viable. buffing riptide is almost a slap to the face as its pretty useless. give it the distance to dodge far enough away to miss taking damage and it will be good. keep deflect the same damage if you want, i don't want to rely on deflects.

Double Lights:
Warden 24 dmg
Shinobi: 24 dmg
Shaman: 20 dmg - (plus her absolutely amazingly broken kit)

Orochi pre nerf: 32 dmg
Orochi post nerf: 22 dmg

as you can see here the warden still has a bigger parry punish than orochi now and his overall gameplay has not been nerved to the ground..well buffed actually with his parry punish damage and his buff to the zone attack.

im not happy with the nerf but i think its just a bit too much devs. i like the idea of deflects but really i don't want to sit there and have to deflect everything. not so fun.. i want to actually have a standup fighting threat as well. maybe give some other side attack threats or lower damage double side attacks.

in closing, ask yourself ubi.. would u release the orochi as a new hero in its current form after the roster including the shaman? HELL NO! is the answer. so please treat the orochi better. we've been one of the most patiently waiting classes...and i know there are others lacking classes too...poor Valk for one :( I like the idea of season 5 to update old heroes but as of now i see no talk on orochi and can't patiently wait forever for this class. PLEASE don't ignore the post and seriously reconsider the damage nerf to a bit less. i really don't want to wait 3 months for the orochi to maybe get a rework. come season five and its going to suck for us orochi.

Charmzzz
02-06-2018, 08:53 AM
Do you have to open several threads concerning the same topic? This here is exactly the same: https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1833236-Orochi-Double-Light-Nerf-vs-Shaman-double-lights?p=13299322#post13299322

And can you just wait for the Den on Thursday? Maybe Orochi will get more tweaks? Also, Riptide Strike is a very good punishing tool for several moves in the game. And if you do not want to use Deflect on an Assassin at all, well, you just throw out guaranteed damage and mixups (especially on Orochi).

ChampionRuby50g
02-06-2018, 09:14 AM
Orochis land a ton more double top lights than Wardens land double side lights from neutral. Orochis double lights is, and still will be a stronger attack from neutral and in the middle of a fight due to it been 500ms. That is 100ms quicker than Wardens, and because of this more likely to interrupt attacks, strike first over other light attacks and so on. Orochi should not have both the fastest double light as well as the most damaging. Ubisoft was right to nerf it, as well as making balance changes. I doubt this will be the last they do to Orochi too.

Card1acArrest
02-06-2018, 11:00 AM
in 4v4 you get a double light after a successful stormrush (the hold back charge one). easy to land in 2v1 situations.

that is how much damage? 25-30+32? too good?

Bl4zingk
02-06-2018, 12:56 PM
lol with more and more posts concerning the orochi nerf, I see him as being one of the next characters to get a rework.

Klingentaenz3r
02-06-2018, 01:53 PM
The change is good and necessary to adjust things with the upcoming changes to the parry mechanics. As Charmz (and the devs btw as well) put it already, Orochi would have a massive heavy parry punishment compared to others so he had to get in line with the rest of the cast. This also nerfs his wombo combo after landing a sucessful stormrush. The damage as some said was up until now just a compensation but it had to go eventually. The Orochi is further on without a doubt is subject to change a lot more so maybe already in the next round of reworks we will see changes. Hopefully soon

Buffing his deflect light seems to me that the intend is to put more incentives to not play him like a regular turtle. With deflects he has to deal with the rest of getting gbroken whilst getting a better punishment compared to parrying and going for the double lights for example. Hopefully he will get soon more options to actually bait out attacks/reactions.

DaLast_Samurai
02-06-2018, 02:40 PM
Nothing wrong with reworking / "buffing" a hero like Orochi that desperately needs it just as much as the first I think five original heroes coming out with reworks.

But who knows how long it will be for Orochi.
Three months?
Six?

Why are we not waiting til' then to "balance" this stuff?
He's now going to face an almost full roster of heroes with suped up kits.

And his strongest punish is being taken away to trade up on his deflects and Riptide Strike?

As an exclusive Orochi player, this may finally push me out the proverbial door.

They should of had him in the first mix of reworks, or at the least not done this until they did rework him.

Charmzzz
02-06-2018, 02:50 PM
Nothing wrong with reworking / "buffing" a hero like Orochi that desperately needs it just as much as the first I think five original heroes coming out with reworks.

But who knows how long it will be for Orochi.
Three months?
Six?

Why are we not waiting til' then to "balance" this stuff?
He's now going to face an almost full roster of heroes with suped up kits.

And his strongest punish is being taken away to trade up on his deflects and Riptide Strike?

As an exclusive Orochi player, this may finally push me out the proverbial door.

They should of had him in the first mix of reworks, or at the least not done this until they did rework him.

Better this than 3-6 months of a parry punish god who exclusively turtles for easy victory. What did you not understand in Orochi being the only character having heavy damage on a heavy parry after the changes? They couldn't let this slip through and every "good" FH player will confirm that.

If you are only able to win because of a 500ms heavy (and this is what his Top Light is...) then I am not sad you go out the door... You could also adapt to the announced changes and use his buffed deflect and Riptide Strike. But hey, Top Light and Zone has to be enough, right? ;)

S0Mi_xD
02-06-2018, 02:58 PM
Better this than 3-6 months of a parry punish god who exclusively turtles for easy victory. What did you not understand in Orochi being the only character having heavy damage on a heavy parry after the changes? They couldn't let this slip through and every "good" FH player will confirm that.

If you are only able to win because of a 500ms heavy (and this is what his Top Light is...) then I am not sad you go out the door... You could also adapt to the announced changes and use his buffed deflect and Riptide Strike. But hey, Top Light and Zone has to be enough, right? ;)

To be fair - berserker will have the highest parry heavy punish after the changes :D
Let's Beyblade!

Charmzzz
02-06-2018, 03:05 PM
To be fair - berserker will have the highest parry heavy punish after the changes :D
Let's Beyblade!

Which one? Zone after heavy parry for 30 damage? I would not bet on that staying like it is, let's wait for the full patchnotes. Btw I am talking about punishing a heavy parry which does not give a guaranteed GB anymore.

DaLast_Samurai
02-06-2018, 03:17 PM
Relying on deflects online?
Depends if dedicated servers make that at all viable.

Riptide Strike?
In other words, hit me while I do this.

This is why Orochi needed to be included in the first round of reworks.
No openers, no other punishing combo, no hyper armor, no unblockables (other than deflects, again if viable on dedicated servers), smallest kit alongside Warden, exc.

#NoEmoticonNeeded

S0Mi_xD
02-06-2018, 03:24 PM
Which one? Zone after heavy parry for 30 damage? I would not bet on that staying like it is, let's wait for the full patchnotes. Btw I am talking about punishing a heavy parry which does not give a guaranteed GB anymore.

Yup - i know.
I don't think they would remove it.
Also i am wrong. Highest heavy parry punish will be forward dash attack into bleed for 35 dmg from PK.
It's a 500ms attack and the heavy parry window is 600ms

Charmzzz
02-06-2018, 03:39 PM
Yup - i know.
I don't think they would remove it.
Also i am wrong. Highest heavy parry punish will be forward dash attack into bleed for 35 dmg from PK.
It's a 500ms attack and the heavy parry window is 600ms

Oh yeah, well, I think that will be tweaked. And I am not even sure if you are able to pull it off because the dash attack has a startup animation. That's why you cannot always get the double stab wall stagger top dash combo, it is only possible if the target stumbles 2-3 steps into the wall.

Charmzzz
02-06-2018, 03:42 PM
Relying on deflects online?
Depends if dedicated servers make that at all viable.

Riptide Strike?
In other words, hit me while I do this.

This is why Orochi needed to be included in the first round of reworks.
No openers, no other punishing combo, no hyper armor, no unblockables (other than deflects, again if viable on dedicated servers), smallest kit alongside Warden, exc.

#NoEmoticonNeeded

Smallest kit? Have you seen PK's? It has 1 move less than Orochi. And all your other arguments are true for PK, too. No openers, no other punishing combo when GB is gone, no hyper armor (even not on deflect!), no unblockables. So, please calm down.

bob333e
02-06-2018, 04:02 PM
Reducing Orochi's double top light damage makes sense. It had heavy damage, at 500ms. I mean, it was unfair. Plus his top lights are more likely to land than Warden's double sides. They are faster and less telegraphed.

As a Warden main, I can assure you that Orochi lights are in general better than Warden's. Any good player will block left and react top against Warden, effectively nullifying his two fastest attacks. No Warden worth his salt will throw a side light from neutral up close, because it's too telegraphed. It must be a counterattack. Warden will be forced to draw a reaction with SB feint, and resort to mixups and more feints, to get a hit in.

As of S5, both Warden and Orochi are now on equal footing in terms of safety of zone attack. Both have fast zones and both won't give a free GB on block. However, Orochi's heavy feint into top light, and Storm Rush cancel into other things, are still more reliable than a Warden throwing a top light or doing heavy feint into side lights. Also let's not forget, Orochi can retreat easier, and can do Riptide as both a retreat and a counterattack. Warden's only good dash is the forward dash. His other dashes aren't something special. His back dash is 800ms, not the best retreat tool. Works, but isn't optimal.

Also, consider that Warden is a Vanguard. Vanguards are supposed to hit harder than Assassins in general. An Assassin hitting harder than a Vanguard is quite awkward. What's stopping this Assassin then?

Servers will definitely help in reading light attacks a lot better, and I think all of us should get to the point of becoming better light parriers and landing deflects like it's a walk in the park. Free GB on parry ruined us. It's time to become real fighters.

Prior_Heahmund
02-06-2018, 04:43 PM
If the OP watched the Warriors Den he would understand why the change was necessary. Looks like another Headline hunter who does not read the article.

S0Mi_xD
02-06-2018, 06:57 PM
Oh yeah, well, I think that will be tweaked. And I am not even sure if you are able to pull it off because the dash attack has a startup animation. That's why you cannot always get the double stab wall stagger top dash combo, it is only possible if the target stumbles 2-3 steps into the wall.

mhh ^^ we will see

DaLast_Samurai
02-07-2018, 12:43 AM
Lol @ using the cheesekeeper as an argument in regards to Orochi not needing to be included in the first cast of reworks.

I think we all know why that's laughable.
No one is excited, easy now.
At least we started to refrain from emoticons I guess.

ChampionRuby50g
02-07-2018, 01:10 AM
Lol @ using the cheesekeeper as an argument in regards to Orochi not needing to be included in the first cast of reworks.

I think we all know why that's laughable.
No one is excited, easy now.
At least we started to refrain from emoticons I guess.

The reason Orochi isnít included is because Kensei was in a much worse position than him not been viable at even lower-mid level play, whereas Orochi could still be used effectively there. He absolutely did not need to be in the first round of the reworks, but Iíll be surprised if nothing happens to him in round 2.

DaLast_Samurai
02-07-2018, 02:47 AM
Totally disagree.
With the five, I think, heroes getting the reworks, you pretty much have an entire new roster that leaves Orochi in the dust.

Berserker is one example of a hero who easily should not have been prioritized above Orochi.

I just think Orochi mains got a real short end of the stick first in hearing that Orochi won't be included in the first round of reworks, and second having his only really viable punishing move nerfed beyond a nessacary amount before he even gets his rework.

This lame argument of use your Riptide Strike (you have to be lucky to land one every once in a blue moon, taking damage as you do half the time, or ending up a sitting duck half the time) and deflects (on the p2p connection, lol, we'll see about dedicated servers).

Joke of an argument as balancing.

And the real rework could take who knows how long.
Like one guy before said...
R.I.P. Orochi

NinjaRonin85
02-07-2018, 03:26 AM
I think they should just leave orochi as he is until he gets rework, I don't use him but it's not like he is hard to beat, if you think he will be a parry god learn to faint. Ubisoft why don't you nerf shaman instead of orochi that b***h is broken why even nerf orochi at this point?

HazelrahFirefly
02-07-2018, 03:52 AM
Its the first step that really only has to do with the parry changes.

They haven't even actually talked about the Orochi yet.

Can we all just calm down? I, for one, am excited over the buffed deflects. They're my favorite way to fight. Make that light guaranteed and Orochi will become my main.

Charmzzz
02-07-2018, 08:10 AM
Lol @ using the cheesekeeper as an argument in regards to Orochi not needing to be included in the first cast of reworks.

I think we all know why that's laughable.
No one is excited, easy now.
At least we started to refrain from emoticons I guess.

Why is it laughable? In higher skillratings PK is almost useless. People block or parry the Zone pretty consistently. If I get one through I get 20 damage for half my stamina. Now compare that to 32 damage and a bit of stamina for a double top light. You seem to have little idea about the game mechanics and play in a low skill rating. And even there Orochi is good.

Picking PK as a comparison was just to show you that a small kit is not that relevant. Relevant are the amount of counter moves and moves that force a reaction. Concerning counter moves the Orochi is in a good spot. Forcing a reaction is pretty much impossible for every OG Assassin because they have no unblockable opener.

Devils-_-legacy
02-07-2018, 01:52 PM
I'd say they both need a rework orochi is in a crap spot has been for a while no openers predicable combo that are kinda useless double heavy combo ect or orochis go the double light gb then heavy then aoe (can't see how hes in a good spot been in need of something for awhile)and pk is almost a one trick pony with lights and lunge that almost no one falls for anymore (don't play her much so this is based on how my opponents play) Imo they need to get ALL of the reworks through asap the ogs need some love the majority of heros are trailing behind compared to the dlc

wolfman25br
02-07-2018, 02:22 PM
looking this damage nerf alone seems clear that is a bit too much.

these updates that are made gradually in the characters, undermine the overall state of balance of the game.

I rather see this change alongside a full rework of orochi kit, or dont change it untill then.

Charmzzz
02-07-2018, 03:06 PM
looking this damage nerf alone seems clear that is a bit too much.

these updates that are made gradually in the characters, undermine the overall state of balance of the game.

I rather see this change alongside a full rework of orochi kit, or dont change it untill then.

If they dont change it but release the parry changes would make Orochi god tier. 32 Damage from a heavy parry. Turtle meta not solved but moved to Orochi.

Knight_Raime
02-07-2018, 03:36 PM
Totally disagree.
With the five, I think, heroes getting the reworks, you pretty much have an entire new roster that leaves Orochi in the dust.

Berserker is one example of a hero who easily should not have been prioritized above Orochi.

I just think Orochi mains got a real short end of the stick first in hearing that Orochi won't be included in the first round of reworks, and second having his only really viable punishing move nerfed beyond a nessacary amount before he even gets his rework.

This lame argument of use your Riptide Strike (you have to be lucky to land one every once in a blue moon, taking damage as you do half the time, or ending up a sitting duck half the time) and deflects (on the p2p connection, lol, we'll see about dedicated servers).

Joke of an argument as balancing.

And the real rework could take who knows how long.
Like one guy before said...
R.I.P. Orochi

The entire OH hero cast is being touched in some form with season 5. The 5 announced are merely the ones season 5 is launching with. This is their current plan.

If you think zerker was better off than orochi you clearly don't know berzerker. And further more you don't understand orochi.
Berzerkers kit is about feint baiting into trading hits. Problem is the only reliable way to do anything with zerker is to feint and switch between raw heavies/raw lights.
As most people will not fall for your trade attempt. and if it's not perfect they'll just cancel and parry you.
You can technically use zerkers backwards pinwheel as it's mostly safe. but it's a decent stamina investment and pulling it off is incredibly difficult.

Orochi is a counter attacker. Primarily punishing whiffs. His kit as a whole is far more useful.
His double light was able to be chained with a few moves. which did loads of damage.
Storm rush was a good whiff punish move that guaranteed top lights in majority of instances.
His deflect game has mix ups.
riptide also worked on punishing attacks as well.

The whole "orochi only has top light and zone" argument is old. And has never been correct. His entire kit has been viable (sans hurricane blast pre armor) since day 1.
The issue stems from the fact that orochi's top lights were just the best punishes for every situation nearly. Why risk a deflect when you can just bait a whiff or a parry and double light?
zone was only useful due to flicker. raw zones now are almost always blocked if not parried.
Orochi has always had the best deflect. But it was considered because parrying was safer and nearly got you the same damage.
The other half of the issue against orochi is that he's just boring. he's a pure counter attacker. You focus entirely on punishing. not really offensive behavior.

Wether or not you agree on the feelings here the fact of the argument is orochi's top lights were too strong and needed to be nerfed. It gave him heavy damage on heavy parries and combined with other aspects of his kit the best neutral game damage.
Riptide strike isn't hard to land. You just need to know what moves to use it against. like the rest of his kit.
But if you never bothered to learn how to use the rest of his kit (and even gave deflecting a serious go) it would be easy to understand why you think orochi is worse off than zerker.

Charmzzz
02-07-2018, 03:40 PM
Knight_Raime: Totally with you except Orochi having the best deflect. Guaranteed GB deflect of Zerker is at least on par with the 3 mixups Orochi has from a deflect imo.

Xaviloga
02-07-2018, 04:08 PM
Yep guys. Please, wait "X" (random number here) months for "maybe" a nice rework for your main character. How is posible you are not hyped?.

Well, ill wait, but playing other games. Then when they end with all changes ill come back, look the game state, and then ill decide if stay or not.