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View Full Version : Def pen: the seriously overtuned stat no one talks about...



mrmistark
02-05-2018, 06:23 AM
Iíve been saying this for a while now, and I would seriously like an answer. All my past attempts have not gotten the attention of the devs and maybe Iím just being silly and this is an unpopular idea, but Iíd at least like to have a discussion about it with these new parry changes coming.

The game was and sort of still is widely understood as having a turtle meta, where being defensive gave too much of an incentive, as a parry has always been very strong. With the gear reworks way back when, the team said ďwhat can we do to stop the defensive meta? Take away defense!Ē Rather than looking at the bigger picture of, if I have less survivability, Iím going to attack less and be more conservative with my health. If you donít agree, look at how someone changes thier play when they get to thier last bar of health. They often go from sort of aggressive to incredibly passive.

Getting to the down and dirty: I get it, some characters can still be very tanky. But there is, at least in my opinion, a HUGE flaw with defense penetration. To get any desired effect in the defense department against someone who Prioitizes ONE stat, you must max out 3 stats.

Essentially, Ubisoft has made one maxed stat equal to 3 maxed stats, and Iím surprised after all of this time it still hasnít been changed or even considered at the very least as a reflection point on its health to the game. Firstly, for those curious, I believe attack should be the direct counter to defense, which it really is, but with def pen, attack is a stacked bonus not a counter. It may be unpopular to say it, but the direction this game has been taking is an offensive meta. Faster, more unreadable, and more damaging. Itís truely the age of the mixups, hard to stop chains and unblockables.

The whole premises for changing the gear stats in the first place was to promote a more difficult decision process when choosing gear, but this stat effectively makes it elementary, as 2 secondary defense stats are enough to pass a neglected defense stat putting your defense slightly above 0. This leaves it a pretty easy pick, even on the attack spectrum.

Iím not asking for you to change the whole gear system and screw everyoneís gear up (like last time, much salt, myself included, you ruined my set ups) but to create a different formula for defense penetration. Instead of it being a direct negation to defense, Iíd love to see it more of a multiplier of sorts such as caping at 1.5x basically an unbuffed revenge mode attack. This would make defense as a stat actually viable, give an actually more difficult stat customization, give characters more survivability directly making them more inclined to play aggressively (as they can take more damage) and provide a decent tank role for your team. Again this is POST parry changes where being a turtle holds way less of a reward.

What do you all think?

bob333e
02-05-2018, 07:23 AM
Concerning gear stats, there are several things that, when stacked together and with added attack-centric feats, makes for an effective glass cannon build. Doom Banner, Fear Itself, Sharpen Blades, Morale Booster etc + pure attack build / pure Revenge damage build is ridiculous. And the Defense Penetration stat certainly isn't helping.

I think you are right. Defense Penetration can work across the board, not just only during Revenge or only when a certain feat is active. And it's an easy choice over Revenge gain, revive speed, execution health gain... stats overall aren't evenly distributed, and it feels like in 4v4s, other than feats, stats encourage less use of tactics and skill, and more attack-mashing to dish out damage. It's a full-on offensive meta that's just as bad as a defensive meta.

Personally, I would rather have the purpose of gear stats completely reworked.

What needs changing, considering a maxed out build at 180:

- Static percentile attack and defense buffs should not exceed 10%
- Revenge gain should not exceed double the speed
- Revenge attack damage should not exceed 10%, and can be stacked with static percentile attack buff for a total of 20% attack boost while in Revenge
- Revenge defense should not exceed 10%, and can be stacked with static percentile defense buff for a total of 20% defense boost while in Revenge
- Stamina regen should not exceed double the speed
- Block damage should not exceed 5%, as it can stack with the chip damage

What is fine as-is, considering a maxed out build at 180:

- Exhaustion recovery
- Execution health regen
- Debuff resistance
- Stamina cost reduction
- Revenge mode duration

Concerning Defense Penetration: this should be completely replaced with something I'd like to call 'Thick Skin'. Considering a maxed out build at 180:

- Provides static defense boost against normal attacks (light, heavy, zone, charged unblockable), does not exceed 5%, and stacks with the static percentile defense buff and the Revenge defense for an overall 25% defense boost while in Revenge and overall 15% defense buff outside Revenge
- Adds bleed tick speed increase to reduce bleed damage, does not exceed 20% bleed tick speed increase
- Adds increased damage taken from counterattacks (parry counters, finishers, crushing counters), does not exceed 10% increase in damage taken from counterattacks.

In my opinion, I think the above would balance out the stats much more evenly, and would also prevent ridiculous glass cannon builds. Not sure if I missed a stat.

The_B0G_
02-05-2018, 02:59 PM
Wouldn't fixing feats remove this issue rather than reworking the gear system? Personally I think offensive meta is the way to go, parries will still get you a hit and give you an opener to turn the tide of the fight.

Stacking feats however is an issue, certain characters like zerker and aramusha can 2 hit most characters from full health with the right feats active.

PDXGorechild
02-05-2018, 03:45 PM
Stacking feats however is an issue, certain characters like zerker and aramusha can 2 hit most characters from full health with the right feats active.

Can't speak for Aramusha but Berserker has no damage increases from passive feats. The Berserkers 2-hit potential lies in having the right gear build, and having the attack buff from Tribute up, before executing his OOS punish. With 20%+ extra attack damage and enough defence penetration to negate any enemies defence stat, with sword shrine active your regular Side heavy > Top heavy (88 damage, base) shoots to just over 120. Enough to kill an Assassin in 2 hits.

I agree with the OP. I think we had a discussion about this a month or two ago and I was sceptical, but after testing it out properly I am in full agreement. My Berserker has the potential for ridiculous damage with +22.5% extra attack and 16% defence penetration. I haven't even had to sacrifice much to get that, I still have high execution health regen, revenge gain and duration, stamina regen and reduction and exhaustion recovery.

I presume one could get defence to around 20-25%, but you'd have to make some sacrifices maxing up defence on three different bits of gear. Only for it to be mostly or completely negated by one stat. Three stats negated by one. Now what? You've got nothing.

What's more is it makes short fights even shorter. I feel like fights should go on a bit longer if anything.

I wince at my own wallsplats. If an inexperienced assassin gets caught in my dance of the paired blades in 4v4, they're dead in two or three seconds. I two hit people fairly often. I am openly admitting I am overpowered in 4v4.

Nerf me.

The_B0G_
02-05-2018, 03:51 PM
Can't speak for Aramusha but Berserker has no damage increases from passive feats. The Berserkers 2-hit potential lies in having the right gear build, and having the attack buff from Tribute up, before executing his OOS punish. With 20%+ extra attack damage and enough defence penetration to negate any enemies defence stat, with sword shrine active your regular Side heavy > Top heavy (88 damage, base) shoots to just over 120. Enough to kill an Assassin in 2 hits.

I agree with the OP. I think we had a discussion about this a month or two ago and I was sceptical, but after testing it out properly I am in full agreement. My Berserker has the potential for ridiculous damage with +22.5% extra attack and 16% defence penetration. I haven't even had to sacrifice much to get that, I still have high execution health regen, revenge gain and duration, stamina regen and reduction and exhaustion recovery.

I presume one could get defence to around 20-25%, but you'd have to make some sacrifices maxing up defence on three different bits of gear. Only for it to be mostly or completely negated by one stat. Three stats negated by one. Now what? You've got nothing.

What's more is it makes short fights even shorter. I feel like fights should go on a bit longer if anything.

I wince at my own wallsplats. If an inexperienced assassin gets caught in my dance of the paired blades in 4v4, they're dead in two or three seconds. I two hit people fairly often. I am openly admitting I am overpowered in 4v4.

Nerf me.

I mean the active feats, like bleed blades and that sort. The ones that last 30 or so seconds, they can rip through 5 bars of health in two hits with a geared character. If Aramusha has his active and he can hit with one light and the unblockable heavy right after and you're dead.

PDXGorechild
02-05-2018, 04:06 PM
I mean the active feats, like bleed blades and that sort. The ones that last 30 or so seconds, they can rip through 5 bars of health in two hits with a geared character. If Aramusha has his active and he can hit with one light and the unblockable heavy right after and you're dead.

Ah, yeah I roll with bleed and berserk feats. So once or twice a game I can be pretty unstoppable for 20 seconds. (Still not as overpowered as catapult killing all 4 enemies in one hit imo) But even without these feats I feel my damage is too much in 4v4.

The_B0G_
02-05-2018, 04:11 PM
Ah, yeah I roll with bleed and berserk feats. So once or twice a game I can be pretty unstoppable for 20 seconds. (Still not as overpowered as catapult killing all 4 enemies in one hit imo) But even without these feats I feel my damage is too much in 4v4.

True, all feats, especially 4th feats need to be toned down, they are far too deadly and decide matches far too often.

bob333e
02-05-2018, 04:46 PM
I still don't get the concept of feats; like, I get they play a role in the Story Mode, but why implement them in multiplayer? you don't even need Catapult to wipe minions, just go whack at them. If they thought Catapult was for the minions...

AoE feats need to go, and I agree with The_BoG_ in that fixing feats across the board would help reduce the impact of gear stats.

mrmistark
02-05-2018, 07:58 PM
I would honestly like to see all feats, restricted to only 3, unlocked at the start of the game, be all pretty much passive or on the small scale feats that arenít huge instant impacts like cross bow, javelin, second wind, fear itself, ect. as strictly a one time use. This way you have to be incredibly tactical on when you use the feats and realize that they are done once they are done. No aoe. Leave the passives as the low impact ones like body count, stam and health gain on kills, throw distance, conqueror ect. Instead of them being mid game unlocks, make them an unlock with progression of the character.

Knight_Raime
02-05-2018, 08:25 PM
I don't 4v4 but def pen just seemed like an unhealthy stat as a concept. it's basically stacking extra damage with the attack stat.

S0Mi_xD
02-05-2018, 09:46 PM
The day the def pen stat was shown in the warriors den, i asked how it work - if it is additive or multiplicative.
Befor knowing how it works, me and some other ppl said how it would be to strong.
And i presented a simple multiplicative way, to balance the def pen out.

It's not like we don't care about it but speaking for me, i dont have much hope, that this stat gets attention.

mrmistark
02-05-2018, 11:22 PM
The day the def pen stat was shown in the warriors den, i asked how it work - if it is additive or multiplicative.
Befor knowing how it works, me and some other ppl said how it would be to strong.
And i presented a simple multiplicative way, to balance the def pen out.

It's not like we don't care about it but speaking for me, i dont have much hope, that this stat gets attention.

Yeah unfortunately I donít either. Iíve posted about this a couple other times, and though not as well constructed, Iíve never gotten a response from the dev team.

I think itís one of those wonky sort of unbalanced things that wonít see change at least any time soon.

Alustar.
02-06-2018, 12:31 AM
As Gorechild mentioned, the benefit from stacking attack and def. Pen. Are horribly one sided, plus an average player has virtually no draw backs from running this type of build. Combine that with the short comings of defensive stats make it impossible to spec in any way to counter this other than running a similar load out, and that is a problem.

The idea behind the gear is supposed to be a means of fine tuning a hero to suit your playstyle better, not force the players into a single option for gear stats.

mrmistark
02-06-2018, 04:56 PM
https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1670842-Ubi-i-need-an-answer-for-this-Defense-Penetration!

Found the link! Good read, honestly I think the 2nd quotation is much better. It provides a rather decent equation for def pen to be viable without detrimental, though bumping up def pen with this equation might help a little as max vs max only brings down the defense by 2.4. Def pen shouldnít be a 1 for 3 negation. And definitely on the gear stat choice side itís very cut and dry:

Helm: exhaustion and defense
Shoulders: stam all the way
Chest: revenge duration/defense depending on preference- defense (only so it doesnít drop negative)
Weapon 1: def pen, attack
Weapon 2: attack, execution/ revive speed depends on player choice
Weapon 3: either attack/revenge gain, or all even

Above is the typical cookie cutter build. There are some exceptions, for instance, using Gladiator, one doesnít have to worry about stamina regen as much as it is almost instantaneous how fast he gains it back. For a highlander youíd definately go a more revenge build ect. Special cases really, but everything is very easy to choose with the normal cast. Itís honestly rediculous because the change in gear never changed the ease of choice, the choices just became different. Even if they do change def pen as seen, only defense will become harder to decide, the weapon portions will be easy

FightingFerrets
02-06-2018, 05:13 PM
Can't speak for Aramusha but Berserker has no damage increases from passive feats. The Berserkers 2-hit potential lies in having the right gear build, and having the attack buff from Tribute up, before executing his OOS punish. With 20%+ extra attack damage and enough defence penetration to negate any enemies defence stat, with sword shrine active your regular Side heavy > Top heavy (88 damage, base) shoots to just over 120. Enough to kill an Assassin in 2 hits.

I agree with the OP. I think we had a discussion about this a month or two ago and I was sceptical, but after testing it out properly I am in full agreement. My Berserker has the potential for ridiculous damage with +22.5% extra attack and 16% defence penetration. I haven't even had to sacrifice much to get that, I still have high execution health regen, revenge gain and duration, stamina regen and reduction and exhaustion recovery.

I presume one could get defence to around 20-25%, but you'd have to make some sacrifices maxing up defence on three different bits of gear. Only for it to be mostly or completely negated by one stat. Three stats negated by one. Now what? You've got nothing.

What's more is it makes short fights even shorter. I feel like fights should go on a bit longer if anything.

I wince at my own wallsplats. If an inexperienced assassin gets caught in my dance of the paired blades in 4v4, they're dead in two or three seconds. I two hit people fairly often. I am openly admitting I am overpowered in 4v4.

Nerf me.

I think my PK has bumped into you a couple of times...usually not a great result for me... :)

mrmistark
02-06-2018, 05:57 PM
I think my PK has bumped into you a couple of times...usually not a great result for me... :)

Hahaha yeah berserker is a tough match for pk with the HA. What platform are all of you? I love baiting people with a wiffed light attack into top heavy, gets a lot of people, assassins especially.

PDXGorechild
02-07-2018, 02:29 PM
I think my PK has bumped into you a couple of times...usually not a great result for me... :)

Haha sorry dude, I do eat PK's for breakfast! :D


Hahaha yeah berserker is a tough match for pk with the HA. What platform are all of you? I love baiting people with a wiffed light attack into top heavy, gets a lot of people, assassins especially.

I do enjoy fighting Assassins most too. Crazy how much more effective "Dance of the paired blades" is against reflex guard.

I'm on PS4, same username as on here. I invite anyone to hit me up for some games, I play with Alustar quite a lot and have with S0mi in the past, great fun ;)

Alustar.
02-07-2018, 03:21 PM
^ to clarify, we team up. Because I'd so much rather have his berserker keeping my back, as opposed to hacking it. Cause, reasons... -_-

S0Mi_xD
02-07-2018, 03:48 PM
https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1670842-Ubi-i-need-an-answer-for-this-Defense-Penetration!

Found the link! Good read, honestly I think the 2nd quotation is much better. It provides a rather decent equation for def pen to be viable without detrimental, though bumping up def pen with this equation might help a little as max vs max only brings down the defense by 2.4. Def pen shouldn’t be a 1 for 3 negation. And definitely on the gear stat choice side it’s very cut and dry:

Helm: exhaustion and defense
Shoulders: stam all the way
Chest: revenge duration/defense depending on preference- defense (only so it doesn’t drop negative)
Weapon 1: def pen, attack
Weapon 2: attack, execution/ revive speed depends on player choice
Weapon 3: either attack/revenge gain, or all even

Above is the typical cookie cutter build. There are some exceptions, for instance, using Gladiator, one doesn’t have to worry about stamina regen as much as it is almost instantaneous how fast he gains it back. For a highlander you’d definately go a more revenge build ect. Special cases really, but everything is very easy to choose with the normal cast. It’s honestly rediculous because the change in gear never changed the ease of choice, the choices just became different. Even if they do change def pen as seen, only defense will become harder to decide, the weapon portions will be easy

o_o you searched for it? hehe ^^
Yeah, there are many kinda broken stats - some exchaustion builds are insane (especially on glad), you can't punish those people for overusing stamina.

Yup, i thought those ideas would turn Def Pen into an dmg assistent stat, because currently it is on of the most OP stats.


Haha sorry dude, I do eat PK's for breakfast! :D



I do enjoy fighting Assassins most too. Crazy how much more effective "Dance of the paired blades" is against reflex guard.

I'm on PS4, same username as on here. I invite anyone to hit me up for some games, I play with Alustar quite a lot and have with S0mi in the past, great fun ;)

Hehe :D always pleased to play with you and the other guys.
Even if we had some ridiculous Dominion games xD it was still fun

mrmistark
02-07-2018, 05:33 PM
o_o you searched for it? hehe ^^
Yeah, there are many kinda broken stats - some exchaustion builds are insane (especially on glad), you can't punish those people for overusing stamina.

Yup, i thought those ideas would turn Def Pen into an dmg assistent stat, because currently it is on of the most OP stats.



Hehe :D always pleased to play with you and the other guys.
Even if we had some ridiculous Dominion games xD it was still fun

Agreed, some of the new characters definately have a huge stam pool/recovery already. Itís kind of crazy especially against the OG roster, not to mention glads SUPER easy oos punish. All he has to do is a super easy tie stab over and over. He definately has the best stamina/recovery and easiest way to punish those who go OOS.

Too bad youíre not on Xbox haha Iíd love to play.

PDXGorechild
02-07-2018, 06:27 PM
Two lethal black b!tchez