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View Full Version : Parry Changes - A Nobushi & Valkyrie main concern.



Trenk2009
02-03-2018, 10:39 AM
So yeah, Valk was already trash tier and I know that a rework is probably coming but how much are we going to wait ?
Considering the damages of a valkyrie, the parrys changes will put her even lower. How are we going to play her ? Agressivelly ? Lol. I would like to honestly; too bad she gets parries her 2nd attack lol.

Soggestion to make her viable: GIVE HER MORE MIX UPS ! SHE NEED TO BE ABLE TO FOLLOW A HEAVY BY ANOTHER HEAVY, A LIGHT BY A HEAVY, AND HER SHILED BASHES BY A HEAVY ! ALSO THE SHIELD BACHES AND SWEEP NEED TO INFLICT SOME SORT OF LITTLE DAMAGES !


For the nobushi I simply don't understand wtf you nerfed her so much. Parry changes are going to take her down hill because she's not that much affected by it when she get gb since she usually was out fo range when heavy parried and still get heavied if light parried, meanwhile on her side, her heavy parrys are going to lead into single light punish. Why nerfing the double poke ? Why nerfing her capacity of dodging back ? Why nerfing her recoverys ?

S0Mi_xD
02-03-2018, 10:54 AM
1. She isn't trash at all, but you can clearly say she is a weaker version of Gladiator.
2. That's right she needs some more mix ups.
3. Capslock messages will not help to bring a feedback forward.
4. About Nobushi, not everything was nerfed, there are buffs and nerfs (it's called balance)

Let us first play with the changes - after that we can complain.
It was always like that, some people already complained about something befor it came out.
But in the end it wasn't that bad (as an example, Warden "nerfs"

BTTrinity
02-03-2018, 03:24 PM
1. She isn't trash at all, but you can clearly say she is a weaker version of Gladiator.
2. That's right she needs some more mix ups.
3. Capslock messages are not will not help to bring a feedback forward.
4. About Nobushi, not everything was nerfed, there are buffs and nerfs (it's called balance)

Let us first play with the changes - after that we can complain.
It was always like that, some people already complained about something befor it came out.
But in the end it wasn't that bad (as an example, Warden "nerfs"

Lol Warden completely fell out of the competitive scene after "nerfs" sooo..... yeah, it was definitely "that bad"

I agree with him, while the zone needed a nerf, and kick needed a buff, her lights also needed a buff not a "Rebalance" the double light out of HS damage nerf is really unnecessary. On top of making it so shes easier to punish, yeah I dont think her lights need a damage nerf at all.

Xaviloga
02-03-2018, 03:33 PM
Like you said lets wait how it will end, but....

Changes will benefit some heroes more than others, thats 100% sure. I can undestand ppl main heroes that are not in the first wave of rework. For experience, the changes in their mains can delay for months....i hope not, but i undestant their fears.

S0Mi_xD
02-03-2018, 04:02 PM
Lol Warden completely fell out of the competitive scene after "nerfs" sooo..... yeah, it was definitely "that bad"

I agree with him, while the zone needed a nerf, and kick needed a buff, her lights also needed a buff not a "Rebalance" the double light out of HS damage nerf is really unnecessary. On top of making it so shes easier to punish, yeah I dont think her lights need a damage nerf at all.

At first - i rolled my eyes reading this, that people still taking the competetive scene as a benchmark (don't get me wrong, most of those players are really good)
But what was/is the META in competetive?
Right - Cheese! Shugoki trains, shugoki wall lurker, WarTurtle, Guess-the-Bash-Warden, ConquTanks, CentParrieon, bugs, glitches etc.
And the biggest flaw in the game is Parry, which basically is the easiest Make-Any-Char-Turtle Move.

Warden fell out of competetive because Ubi balanced out the Cheese, not because he got "hit hard" with those "nerfs"
People who could only win with the cheese got hit hard, but not warden himself.
Oh right, Raider got into new Cheese Meta, i mean "competetive" for a certain time xD

About Nobushi:
First hit of the zone was far to strong for this speed, but the second was fine(dunno why this one got a nerf).
But the kick changes are great - about the double light dmg out of HS ... i dunno how much it will affect gameplay.
We will see, maybe there is more we don't know.

But my main problem is, that people are complaining about everything without knowing the full extend of something.
Warden "nerfs" - so many player cried about it, as soon as it dropped, 10% of those who cried befor the drop still complaining, but those are the ones who will never be satisfied (it's the same game like it was with Revenge)

BTTrinity
02-03-2018, 04:54 PM
At first - i rolled my eyes reading this, that people still taking the competetive scene as a benchmark (don't get me wrong, most of those players are really good)
But what was/is the META in competetive?
Right - Cheese! Shugoki trains, shugoki wall lurker, WarTurtle, Guess-the-Bash-Warden, ConquTanks, CentParrieon, bugs, glitches etc.
And the biggest flaw in the game is Parry, which basically is the easiest Make-Any-Char-Turtle Move.

Warden fell out of competetive because Ubi balanced out the Cheese, not because he got "hit hard" with those "nerfs"
People who could only win with the cheese got hit hard, but not warden himself.
Oh right, Raider got into new Cheese Meta, i mean "competetive" for a certain time xD

About Nobushi:
First hit of the zone was far to strong for this speed, but the second was fine(dunno why this one got a nerf).
But the kick changes are great - about the double light dmg out of HS ... i dunno how much it will affect gameplay.
We will see, maybe there is more we don't know.

But my main problem is, that people are complaining about everything without knowing the full extend of something.
Warden "nerfs" - so many player cried about it, as soon as it dropped, 10% of those who cried befor the drop still complaining, but those are the ones who will never be satisfied (it's the same game like it was with Revenge)

THAT IS COMPETITIVE, using the META to CHEESE your opponents to the best of your ability. Its the same thing in Siege, the same thing in Overwatch and ANY OTHER RANKED game for that matter. You can call it fixing the cheese, but does that change that Warden is no longer competitive after his nerfs? No.

Though, I see what you're trying to say... Shes still going to be a strong fighter, and her gameplay doesnt seem like its gonna change like Wardens did. (The damage nerfs probably wont change how she plays much, just gonna take a tiny bit longer to kill people... But that was compensated by giving her attacks more speed.)

Knight_Raime
02-03-2018, 04:56 PM
Valk is considered to be I think the best of the lower tier people. So she's not super bad. But I understand how you feel.
Really I think this only takes her max damage punish away. She deff could use a new mix up or 2 though I agree.

Doesn't nobu still get raw top heavy from light parry?
Most heros are only getting a light on heavy parries now. In concept this is good. Since heavy parries are easily doable.
it was from 42 to now 34 damage. that's still pretty good.
Her zone nerf is fine.
They made vipers retreat useful and kick even better. Only person who can punish her kick on dodge with a GB is raider anyway.
Like in team fights yeah it'll be worse for her. But the whole point of the rebalance was to real in her 4v4 power without messing too much of 1v1 and throwing 1v1 something.
Personally I wish they'd also reduced the stamina cost of hidden stance too. but at least vipers retreat is useful now.

BTTrinity
02-03-2018, 05:05 PM
Valk is considered to be I think the best of the lower tier people. So she's not super bad. But I understand how you feel.
Really I think this only takes her max damage punish away. She deff could use a new mix up or 2 though I agree.

Doesn't nobu still get raw top heavy from light parry?
Most heros are only getting a light on heavy parries now. In concept this is good. Since heavy parries are easily doable.
it was from 42 to now 34 damage. that's still pretty good.
Her zone nerf is fine.
They made vipers retreat useful and kick even better. Only person who can punish her kick on dodge with a GB is raider anyway.
Like in team fights yeah it'll be worse for her. But the whole point of the rebalance was to real in her 4v4 power without messing too much of 1v1 and throwing 1v1 something.
Personally I wish they'd also reduced the stamina cost of hidden stance too. but at least vipers retreat is useful now.

Hell, I think these changes would all be perfect if they got rid of the Stamina regeneration delay after using stance.... (I think the big stamina cost would be manageable, if I could actually regenerate stamina)

S0Mi_xD
02-03-2018, 05:21 PM
THAT IS COMPETITIVE, using the META to CHEESE your opponents to the best of your ability. Its the same thing in Siege, the same thing in Overwatch and ANY OTHER RANKED game for that matter. You can call it fixing the cheese, but does that change that Warden is no longer competitive after his nerfs? No.

Though, I see what you're trying to say... Shes still going to be a strong fighter, and her gameplay doesnt seem like its gonna change like Wardens did. (The damage nerfs probably wont change how she plays much, just gonna take a tiny bit longer to kill people... But that was compensated by giving her attacks more speed.)

Yeah - that is exactly what i am saying :'D
And because that's how competetive work, it can't be taken as a benchmark to say if a char is low or high tier etc. ^^
You get it - without the cheese they are out of competetive but they are still good chars.

I agree with you on your stamina regen delay point.
This needs to go for HS.

Knight_Raime
02-03-2018, 05:46 PM
Hell, I think these changes would all be perfect if they got rid of the Stamina regeneration delay after using stance.... (I think the big stamina cost would be manageable, if I could actually regenerate stamina)

If it actually turns out to be a sucessful change for highlander than yeah I could agree to that.

Jiblet2017
02-03-2018, 05:55 PM
I really hope the nobushi changes pan out. I'll reserve judgement until I have a chance to test the mechanics after the 15th, but worry giving her favorable kick matchups, and changing VR, and increasing the speed of HS lights will not make up for her dodge recovery and damage nerfs (I thought competitive said 2 characters could punish kick at 500ms But I could be wrong).

Either way, I'm interested to try her out but worry many of her origional challenges at high levels will remain: telegraphed animations on lights and stamina management. I also don't want her to become a kick bot since I always enjoyed her kit and liked her identity as an AoE fighter.

Knight_Raime
02-03-2018, 06:01 PM
I really hope the nobushi changes pan out. I'll reserve judgement until I have a chance to test the mechanics after the 15th, but worry giving her favorable kick matchups, and changing VR, and increasing the speed of HS lights will not make up for her dodge recovery and damage nerfs (I thought competitive said 2 characters could punish kick at 500ms But I could be wrong).

Either way, I'm interested to try her out but worry many of her origional challenges at high levels will remain: telegraphed animations on lights and stamina management. I also don't want her to become a kick bot since I always enjoyed her kit and liked her identity as an AoE fighter.

Only other person I could imagine would be warlord but i'm pretty sure they nerfed his dodge recovery so he can't reliably dodge and GB people as a punish anymore. Could be wrong though I don't play him.

Baggin_
02-03-2018, 06:44 PM
the changes in their mains can delay for months....i hope not, but i undestant their fears.

I think we'll see a much faster turnover with character and game rebalance after the dedicated servers launch and get all the bugs sorted out with them. After they are finished, all the people working on them (which I hear is like 100 bodies or so) will get put onto other projects within the game.

matt89connor
02-03-2018, 11:05 PM
just wait season 5 then you will see her in the next rework list, don't be afraid :)

UbiJurassic
02-03-2018, 11:31 PM
Just want to chime in and say that while the beginning of this thread was a bit shaky, you all turned it into a fantastic, constructive conversation about the upcoming changes. I'll make sure the feedback is all noted down. ;)

Kamen42
02-07-2018, 02:03 PM
I have never played Nobushi so I can't really talk about her.

But concerning Valk. In my opinion she does not need big drastic changes. She has a lot of tools if you know how to use them properly. Superior block on her lights or guaranteed 40 dmg after her "deflect" are just a few of them.

However I completely agree with the part about her attack chains. I agree that she could use a chain with a second attack being heavy. At the moment it is really hard to be aggressive with her, when your second attack HAS TO be light. Most people parry or deflect the second light with. I think this one change - giving her a heavy second attack - would make her a lot more viable.

Jiblet2017
02-07-2018, 04:00 PM
I have never played Nobushi so I can't really talk about her.

But concerning Valk. In my opinion she does not need big drastic changes. She has a lot of tools if you know how to use them properly. Superior block on her lights or guaranteed 40 dmg after her "deflect" are just a few of them.

However I completely agree with the part about her attack chains. I agree that she could use a chain with a second attack being heavy. At the moment it is really hard to be aggressive with her, when your second attack HAS TO be light. Most people parry or deflect the second light with. I think this one change - giving her a heavy second attack - would make her a lot more viable.

I just started playing Valk and was surprised how well she performed. Granted I'm not in the top .01% of skill levels, she seemed to have a pretty well rounded kit with fast, untelegraphed lights and strong CC/defensive options.

Dashing forward into top lights/heavies for a free gb will also be incredibly strong after the parry changes if it remains in the game.

Also, Raime: I checked back with the competitive sub reddit and apparently raider and . . . Orochi?! Can punish the new nobushi kick with a GB ( which I have no clue why orochi can GB given his dodge frames but it was apparently confirmed by one of the top nobushi players). Thanks for the response.

Knight_Raime
02-07-2018, 04:25 PM
I just started playing Valk and was surprised how well she performed. Granted I'm not in the top .01% of skill levels, she seemed to have a pretty well rounded kit with fast, untelegraphed lights and strong CC/defensive options.

Dashing forward into top lights/heavies for a free gb will also be incredibly strong after the parry changes if it remains in the game.

Also, Raime: I checked back with the competitive sub reddit and apparently raider and . . . Orochi?! Can punish the new nobushi kick with a GB ( which I have no clue why orochi can GB given his dodge frames but it was apparently confirmed by one of the top nobushi players). Thanks for the response.

No idea why rochi would be able to. his dodge recovery isn't fast enough. Unless some of the orochi changes we don't know about leaked early.

Kamen42
02-07-2018, 04:30 PM
Orochi is my second most played character and I have NEVER managed to GB Nobushi after dodging her kick.

Jiblet2017
02-07-2018, 04:46 PM
No idea why rochi would be able to. his dodge recovery isn't fast enough. Unless some of the orochi changes we don't know about leaked early.

It didn't make any sense to me either - so I went back and checked: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/7ukrjf/so_lets_talk_about_the_nobushi_rebalancing/

I goofed - apparently only raider gets the GB on dodge. However, both raider and orochi are able to dodge the kick after a HS heavy (while other characters will be stuck in the block stagger animation). It's just that orochi's dodge animation does not end quickly enough to get a GB. In summary - dodge + gb for raider on HS> heavy> kick and only dodge for orochi (but he can still parry the follow up lights).

Sorry for the confusion.