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View Full Version : Orochi Double Light Nerf vs. Shaman double lights



Playing_Mantis
02-03-2018, 12:14 AM
Double Lights:
Warden 24 dmg
Shinobi: 24 dmg
Shaman: 20 dmg

Orochi pre nerf: 32 dmg
Orochi post nerf: 22 dmg

Does the Orochi need to be nerved on his double lights to be worse than wardens - worse than shinobi - and barley above shaman?
All these heroes actually have a mixup game and a usable kit. Orochi double light is now less than these heroes now? this just makes no sense ubi. maybe over nerfing the damage here with the useless kit of orochi?

Shaman is ridiculous compared to the orochi and now the orochi top only double light is on par with shamans any direction double light? plus her ungodly kit. why would anyone even consider playing orochi now when clearly the shaman is the much much better choice. can orochi get faster side light attacks that do double lights too and then the 22 damage might make sense? do you even see this devs.. how ridiculous this is? and there is no scheduled rework for the orochi.. come on guys. Even shinobi gets multi direction double lights that still do more damage than the orochi only top light attack. why? warden has 2 side lights that do more damage. orochi only has top!!! and there worse than the others.. i just can't believe I'm hearing this. the reason it was more damage than the other heroes is because its only top, but now that its on par or even less damage than those classes they should be given same attacks on side as well. who cared about the deflect buff.. its so inconsistent. nerf that for all i care.

Mini1900
02-03-2018, 12:21 AM
Wait until season V, then we talk . Lets hope they will hear to people what they actually sometimes do.

BarbeQMichael
02-03-2018, 12:32 AM
The real question is, how anyone deserves to get 500ms light to do more than 15dmg?

Charmzzz
02-03-2018, 12:51 AM
Uhm, Warden double light starts with a 600ms side light... So it is barely hitting when not chained from a SB. And why the fck are you thinking that they will leave Orochi like that? Can you be a bit patient and wait for the full patch notes? Even if they tweak Orochi later it is no excuse to rage like you do...

Btw Deflect will be supergood when dedicated Servers are Online. And Orochi has very good Deflect options compared to all other Assassins.


The real question is, how anyone deserves to get 500ms light to do more than 15dmg?

Warden side Light is not a 500ms attack as mentioned above. Shaman and Shinobi, well, the thing on them is that they cannot chain the double Light into anything. Orochi can iirc.

Okita_Soji..
02-03-2018, 01:25 AM
The reason it is hurtful to Orochi is that all he has it that and zone. How do you fight an orochi? Leave guard on top and watch for zone, everyone does this. How do fight a a warden? Do you leave guard just on the side of his side lights? How about shamen or shinobi? As far as I know you don't just close out one attack positon with the auto block, you read them. Facing an orochi you stop the top and force him to something else. I get why they did it but it hurts him too much with no rework planned. Orochi's kit is weak and that was his signature move which just got hammered.

Riptide is a joke and needs more tweaking than a damage buff. It's still not usable. And deflect light is good if it can be done and land. Even with servers lag will be an issue so deflects will be the same, really hard to do in 4v4 pvp. 1v1 or against the AI they can work. Hurricane doesn't always land either it can be interrupted or missed. Servers won't be coming for weeks then the lag comp will be weeks after that so the "supergood" deflecting is a month or more away and he will be nothing until then. It's sad as he is my favorite do the reflex guard and having the typical samurai look.

Playing_Mantis
02-03-2018, 01:35 AM
u don't understand bro... its all orochi has thats viable!! ok fine nerf the damage if you actually give him a useful kit!! my god this guy... vs any decent player its not hard to know where the orochi is going to attack. always top.. so if u give us actual useful side attacks then I'm totally fine with the damage nerfs.

Playing_Mantis
02-03-2018, 01:39 AM
i hear u man. orochi will be trash tier till he gets rework...big if there as they have said absolutely nothing about it. low level players may think orochi is good but vs any decent player orochi simply gets shut down. thats just fact. keep arguing if u want guys.

Vakris_One
02-03-2018, 04:25 AM
Decent players can also shut down Warden and Shinobi so I see no relevance to that point. They should have equalised its damage with Warden and Shin at 24 or maybe put it at 26 imo but we don't know what they have planned for Orochi's eventual rework so I'd wait and see.

They buffed his deflect damage and buffed his damage from Riptide Strike which is a perfectly useable move for certain situations and against certain characters.

ChampionRuby50g
02-03-2018, 04:50 AM
The reason it is hurtful to Orochi is that all he has it that and zone. How do you fight an orochi? Leave guard on top and watch for zone, everyone does this. How do fight a a warden? Do you leave guard just on the side of his side lights? How about shamen or shinobi? As far as I know you don't just close out one attack positon with the auto block, you read them. Facing an orochi you stop the top and force him to something else. I get why they did it but it hurts him too much with no rework planned. Orochi's kit is weak and that was his signature move which just got hammered.

Itís almost exact same with Warden as it is with Orochi. At high level all players instantly have their guard up top against me and watch for the zones or easily react to side lights. Only difference is, Wardens Zone is highly punishable and Orochis isnít. Thatís going to change with the update though.

Charmzzz
02-03-2018, 10:34 AM
u don't understand bro... its all orochi has thats viable!! ok fine nerf the damage if you actually give him a useful kit!! my god this guy... vs any decent player its not hard to know where the orochi is going to attack. always top.. so if u give us actual useful side attacks then I'm totally fine with the damage nerfs.

If it needs a 32 Damage 500ms attack to make a kit viable something is wrong. And what can a PK Main say to this? The kit of both Characters is very similar, with the PK having a faster Zone (by 100ms) but the Orochi dealing heavy damage from one Light. And, tbh, if you think that Riptide Strike is "a joke" you really need to l2p. I have met Orochi who used that move in the correct timing and it is hitting hard, even more now.

Also, do you know the full patch notes? Nope... They only addressed the community concerns that with the parry changes, if a light is confirmed after a heavy parry, Orochi would be the best "turtle" in the game. Parry anything and get heavy damage. That had to be changed. Wait for the rest of the patch notes now, plz.

BarbeQMichael
02-03-2018, 12:01 PM
Warden side Light is not a 500ms

Yes, but oro and shinobi have both 500ms lights dealing 24 and 32 (soon 22) dmg, which is just ridiculous. There shouldn't be such low risk high reward moves, especially now that from parry you get only a light, they will be monsters because the ability to deal almost double the damage other heroes can, not to mention the deflects.

Jazz117Volkov
02-03-2018, 12:23 PM
I don't see this being an issue.

Orochi also has deflects to answer attacks with.

DoT.ExE2_4
02-03-2018, 12:35 PM
But given orochi's extremely limited kit made of tons of situational moves, building your gameplay of deflects is exactly the same as asking people to play berserker or glad instead.(what I really mean is just Nerf it to 26 or 27 instead of 22 just because how hard it is to land it)

DoT.ExE2_4
02-03-2018, 12:40 PM
With orchi's extremely situational kit, asking an orochi to build his defense around deflect is practically the same as telling him to play berserker since gbs are going to be really hard to get very soon. (If they'd only nerfed it to 26 or 27, I'd still be able to live with it but 22 is just too low for me)

Jazz117Volkov
02-03-2018, 12:43 PM
But given orochi's extremely limited kit made of tons of situational moves, building your gameplay of deflects is exactly the same as asking people to play berserker or glad instead.(what I really mean is just Nerf it to 26 or 27 instead of 22 just because how hard it is to land it)

Orochi does need more viable moves, I agree, but I'm still not convinced the nerf is too much. We'll have to see how it plays out.

DoT.ExE2_4
02-03-2018, 01:09 PM
I'd much rather have an orochi's with a somewhat limited viable and effective moves( like top lights , zone and one more opener) than have many openers. That's the charm that drawed me to his class after all. Well here's to hoping his rework keeps his charms and not turn him into a whole new hero( and hopefully is worth waiting for).

Cliff_001
02-03-2018, 06:18 PM
Warden double lights don't do 24 damage.

Cyricke
02-03-2018, 08:32 PM
Devs are complete jokes.

An entire community of gamers laughs at them because of these type of decisions.

Don't worry guys, dedicated servers are coming to this highly competitive PvP game just 1.2 years after release. Lmao. This is real life? AAA quality by the way. $60 game by the way.

Playing_Mantis
02-06-2018, 08:14 AM
comical man. its simply parry bait. i can't take your comments as credibility as i can tell you don't play orochi. riptide would be good if u could actually dodge back far enough to miss being hit by an attack. otherwise its pretty chat dude. make it one shot kill and id still take back the top light damage. i can honestly say 1 of maybe 6 riptides don't get punished. its just not a viable move and kinda a slap in the face when dev say there buffing riptide to balance it out... come on ubi.

Playing_Mantis
02-06-2018, 08:23 AM
im done with u charmzzzz. u obs don't play orochi or if so have never faced a top tier player who simply knows how to hold block on top and watch zone. its hard to get them to land and thats why the 32 damage is necessary. if there were side threats then it would not matter because u could confuse them. the damage with only top standard attacks makes it much harder than most classes to land. so if u can't see that charmzzzzzz then u simply just don't know how to fight an orochi or played vs a good player with one. post all u want but its true, orochi is not top tier, nowhere close to glad.cent.shaman.etc.. and vs high rep players he's even worse than most of the original cast of heroes. so if this is the case and he gets a big nerf won't he just get even worse than he is now? your logic makes no sense..please don't write on this anymore as i won't bother to argue with someone who simply does not understand the class.

Charmzzz
02-06-2018, 09:03 AM
Warden double lights don't do 24 damage.

Yes they do: first hits for 15, the followup for 9 damage.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0


im done with u charmzzzz. u obs don't play orochi or if so have never faced a top tier player who simply knows how to hold block on top and watch zone. its hard to get them to land and thats why the 32 damage is necessary. if there were side threats then it would not matter because u could confuse them. the damage with only top standard attacks makes it much harder than most classes to land. so if u can't see that charmzzzzzz then u simply just don't know how to fight an orochi or played vs a good player with one. post all u want but its true, orochi is not top tier, nowhere close to glad.cent.shaman.etc.. and vs high rep players he's even worse than most of the original cast of heroes. so if this is the case and he gets a big nerf won't he just get even worse than he is now? your logic makes no sense..please don't write on this anymore as i won't bother to argue with someone who simply does not understand the class.

I don't care if you like to read my posts because this is a forum. And I still don't understand why one class should get heavy damage from a heavy-parry and all others don't. 32 damage from a heavy-parry would be massively OP when the parry changes come in, everybody would play Orochi, turtle up and wait for a parry. That is what you want? Just wait for tweaks and reworks, just as I am for my characters.

And if this is your profile: https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/Playing_Mantis then I really doubt you know how this game works. This is mine: https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/Charmzzz and I know that I am not even in the Top 5% concerning skill, but often I face people like Setmyx, Playfiends and Clutchmeister.... So stop telling me that I have no idea how this game works.

Armosias
02-06-2018, 01:05 PM
It's fun how how they cry over the loss of 10 damages on a light combo but say nothing on the huge up they get instead, not to mention that the patch notes is temporary as it only covers parry changes. Also if I remember well a Ubi rep wrote on the forums that Orochi would get a rework too.

BarbeQMichael
02-06-2018, 01:48 PM
It's fun how how they cry over the loss of 10 damages on a light combo but say nothing on the huge up they get instead, not to mention that the patch notes is temporary as it only covers parry changes. Also if I remember well a Ubi rep wrote on the forums that Orochi would get a rework too.

This, best attack in game got tuned down to 2nd best light attack, only beaten by shinobi's godtier 24dmg @ 500ms from any direction.

Illyrian_King
02-06-2018, 07:23 PM
At least this annoying type of Orochis, who just use top light and ZA get buttf*cked ... but there should have been a proper buff to compensate this.

Deflect buff ... meehhh

Vrbas1
02-06-2018, 08:00 PM
Given that pre nerf it was still 10 damage above every other double light I won't complain; he's just getting brought back in line with the other heros. It's a "nerf" because people were used to his overpowered guarantees.

odachi16
02-07-2018, 11:36 PM
i find it frustrating how they over-nerfed orochi. why are characters with heavier weapons have faster quick attacks now? ubisoft needs to speak with actual fencers/ kendo practitioners, and fix the physics in the game. and yes, the warded should not have the double light over the orochi. makes no sense. either nerf all equally or fix orochi to where his strikes makes more sense power-speed wise. on that note, in case anyone is interested, look up yoshindo yoshihara. his katana recently broke the world record for helmet splitting, which is why they sell for ~ roughly $30,000.

Armosias
02-08-2018, 12:21 AM
i find it frustrating how they over-nerfed orochi. why are characters with heavier weapons have faster quick attacks now? ubisoft needs to speak with actual fencers/ kendo practitioners, and fix the physics in the game. and yes, the warded should not have the double light over the orochi. makes no sense. either nerf all equally or fix orochi to where his strikes makes more sense power-speed wise. on that note, in case anyone is interested, look up yoshindo yoshihara. his katana recently broke the world record for helmet splitting, which is why they sell for ~ roughly $30,000.
So because his strikes are faster Orochi should deal more damages than heavier and slower characters? Do you know the damages dealt by a 10 Kg razor sharp chunk of steel wielded by a strong warrior? And regarding the helm splitting katana worth 30K $ it is surely produced in high quantity for a war and forged in order to cut both flesh and armors (I mean armored curves)

Edit: What I meant is the quoted post says in the same sentence that orochi is overnerfed and claims it should both striker harder and faster than other heroes, which is absolutely dumb.

Arekonator
02-08-2018, 01:10 AM
"Muh superior nippon steel."
/thread

Vingrask
02-08-2018, 05:45 AM
All of you crying about the top light just prove how the playerbase is pathetic.

I have a Orochi rep 5 and I almost never use the top light or the zone, trying to mix all the kit and play as he is supposed to be played: as a counter attacker. There are some fights the enemy get so annoyed which they tend to stop try attack me, and then I can get the lead or even try some direct attacks.

I'm glad they are nerfing it, so all the easy moves players can leave. Next, they have to nerf Peacekeeper to the ground, because those heroes make no sense compared to the new ones complexity.

This top/zone dependancy is hilarious.

Playing_Mantis
02-10-2018, 05:22 AM
lol Chamzzzzz looks up my surf account to prove a point. GJ man. Id be glad to fight against your orochi to prove the point if u want. Who cares, orochi in not top tier, if anyone thinks so than they just have not fought agains anyone who's decent at the game. they are simply underpowered at higher level. argue all u want. the devs won't do **** about it anyway. if u look at the win rate over rep 50 players i guarantee orochi is super low tier.

Alustar.
02-10-2018, 03:06 PM
How about instead of complaining that they took away a reliance in a gimped attack, you start petitioning them to give Orochi a good rework?

Also, is barely like 7 damage lost over all? Big freaking whoop!!! It didn't get nerfed in any other ways! No attack speed reduction, no increased recovery, still has second hit confirmed, still can flow directly into a zone or GB.

Seriously, people, use your brains for once and think sit this? Quite with the knee jerk reactions.

Playing_Mantis
02-11-2018, 08:30 AM
7? i wish it were only seven..or even 5. but no its 10, basically 30% so yea its kinda a big deal. "not big freakin whoop" like u say there. as for the rework obviously u have not seen the thousand posts for this with no response from the devs. maybe use your brains before posting alustar. incoming rage retaliation post...

Herbstlicht
02-11-2018, 07:37 PM
So, now your solo skill evaluated by the game and maybe some luck in matches etc. determines if ye wrong or right?
Oh boy. Ah anyway, personally I really dislike the nerf on Orochi due to the simple fact of his overly weak kit in comparison to the majority of the roster. Might Orochi just turtle up and try to punish after a parry? Well, maybe. But won't do him any good against a lot of classes.
You know, heavies can be cancelled. Besides, at least from a console point of view, life gets way easier if you needn't care about more then one (or 2) directions. Block top and Orochi is harmless. Zone is a risky commitment in many cases due to stamina usage.
Ah and to prove my point!
https://fhtracker.com/profile/psn/Klingenlied
This weird site says I am top 0.2% in duel. Guess I am awesome now? (careful, irony!)
However, to put it in line a little: if i'd move to Orochi, I would move to -5 skill levels in almost an instant. Thats just how good he is ;)

Armosias
02-11-2018, 07:48 PM
Yup Orochi will become the weakest char at S5 launch, the counter attacker who can't spam two moves anymore. And Cent is becoming stronger with parry changes also? Maybe you should wait for servs, and even more on consoles, before crying, because Orochi will have a heavy worth of damages packed in a light on deflect, basically the same as his top light now, but with an actual skill cap. Oh and yeah we still ain't sure if Ubi is going to change more things DURING S5.
That was my rant.
By the way every char of the OG cast will be reworked sooner or later.

Knight_Raime
02-11-2018, 07:58 PM
So, now your solo skill evaluated by the game and maybe some luck in matches etc. determines if ye wrong or right?
Oh boy. Ah anyway, personally I really dislike the nerf on Orochi due to the simple fact of his overly weak kit in comparison to the majority of the roster. Might Orochi just turtle up and try to punish after a parry? Well, maybe. But won't do him any good against a lot of classes.
You know, heavies can be cancelled. Besides, at least from a console point of view, life gets way easier if you needn't care about more then one (or 2) directions. Block top and Orochi is harmless. Zone is a risky commitment in many cases due to stamina usage.
Ah and to prove my point!
https://fhtracker.com/profile/psn/Klingenlied
This weird site says I am top 0.2% in duel. Guess I am awesome now? (careful, irony!)
However, to put it in line a little: if i'd move to Orochi, I would move to -5 skill levels in almost an instant. Thats just how good he is ;)

If I had a dollar for everytime someone said orochi's kit was weak i'd be rich.
Orochi had more than top light and zone. Plenty of people have already pointed this out but I guess i'll do it one last time.

Both orochi side lights were viable. They are on par with most light speeds in the game. Clearly you can't throw them out all the time. But nothing ever stopped you from throwing a random side light on the opponents end unless they were a parry god.

Orochi's top light is heavy damage. on a heavy parry. something we're actively trying to get rid of in season 5.
Rip tide strike and storm rush were both viable options for whiff punishes that in most cases would guarantee you top light after. or a GB attempt since it was so quick which gives you top light again.
Dodge attacks are nothing special but like with most other ones were great at responding to raw bashes or bash mix ups.
Windgust deflect hits as hard as a heavy does. And hurricane blast hits even harder but with armor and mix ups. Which usually always is followed with top lights after either deflect. Not guaranteed. But fast enough that most people didn't react to them.
Finally top light had some decent ish range and could be reliably used to whiff punish as well.

So if orochi sounds this great why do people consider him weak? Because:
~deflecting is risky
~no one considers side lights when top lights hit harder.
~riptide/storm rush can only be used to punish certain attacks. Top light can be used to whiff punish nearly everything.

And you guys are actively asking for his top lights to not be nerfed when it's basically half the problem of his kit? L.O.L.

Orochi doesn't need much to have a more up to date kit:
~third light in his light>light>light combo is now a heavy and unblockable when done from the side. it would be a 600ms unblockable that can be feinted.
~Storm rush is now faster, can be canceled later, and hits harder. But no longer guarantees a double top light unless you're whiff punishing a longer recovery attack/dodge.
~Storm rush can now be soft canceled into any of his dodge/dash attacks and doing so makes those attacks slightly faster.
~riptide strike now has proper dodge frames like hidden stance and has 2 inputs. the standard input. and the holding it slightly when inputting it. the second one delays riptide strike a bit longer making it unblockable for more damage. it can be feinted.

Boom. There. He's interesting now. And before you take this as aggression against you specifically it's not. I'm just damn tired of people saying dumb crap about orochi that is simply not true. He's not bad. he's not weak. he's just boring. And removing top light domininance is the first step in changing that. His issue was never a weak kit. His issue was top lights just being the best option bar none.

CandleInTheDark
02-11-2018, 08:22 PM
If I had a dollar for everytime someone said orochi's kit was weak i'd be rich.
Orochi had more than top light and zone. Plenty of people have already pointed this out but I guess i'll do it one last time.

Both orochi side lights were viable. They are on par with most light speeds in the game. Clearly you can't throw them out all the time. But nothing ever stopped you from throwing a random side light on the opponents end unless they were a parry god.

Orochi's top light is heavy damage. on a heavy parry. something we're actively trying to get rid of in season 5.
Rip tide strike and storm rush were both viable options for whiff punishes that in most cases would guarantee you top light after. or a GB attempt since it was so quick which gives you top light again.
Dodge attacks are nothing special but like with most other ones were great at responding to raw bashes or bash mix ups.
Windgust deflect hits as hard as a heavy does. And hurricane blast hits even harder but with armor and mix ups. Which usually always is followed with top lights after either deflect. Not guaranteed. But fast enough that most people didn't react to them.
Finally top light had some decent ish range and could be reliably used to whiff punish as well.

So if orochi sounds this great why do people consider him weak? Because:
~deflecting is risky
~no one considers side lights when top lights hit harder.
~riptide/storm rush can only be used to punish certain attacks. Top light can be used to whiff punish nearly everything.

And you guys are actively asking for his top lights to not be nerfed when it's basically half the problem of his kit? L.O.L.

Orochi doesn't need much to have a more up to date kit:
~third light in his light>light>light combo is now a heavy and unblockable when done from the side. it would be a 600ms unblockable that can be feinted.
~Storm rush is now faster, can be canceled later, and hits harder. But no longer guarantees a double top light unless you're whiff punishing a longer recovery attack/dodge.
~Storm rush can now be soft canceled into any of his dodge/dash attacks and doing so makes those attacks slightly faster.
~riptide strike now has proper dodge frames like hidden stance and has 2 inputs. the standard input. and the holding it slightly when inputting it. the second one delays riptide strike a bit longer making it unblockable for more damage. it can be feinted.

Boom. There. He's interesting now. And before you take this as aggression against you specifically it's not. I'm just damn tired of people saying dumb crap about orochi that is simply not true. He's not bad. he's not weak. he's just boring. And removing top light domininance is the first step in changing that. His issue was never a weak kit. His issue was top lights just being the best option bar none.

Exactly this, if Orochi was that trash, Hhhmmmm would never have made it to the hero series finals with orochi and he would have been rinsed every game. With orochi, he got out of his group,losing only to tech abuse, and he had close fights where the difference was not what he or his opponent did but that he was on uneven ground and teching a guardbreak knocked him over,so basically he got put to a huge disadvantage in the fight he was knocked out in due to a bug. During that tournament, we saw the whole orochi kit used with both deflects, strom rush and riptide all scoring solid strikes. He is a counter attacking burst damage character whose player base is calling for 'safe openers' and wondering why they are losing in trading damage against characters more built around trading, if they are going to try to use an orochi like a conqueror against a conqueror of course they are going to look weak in comparison.

Knight_Raime
02-11-2018, 08:30 PM
Exactly this, if Orochi was that trash, Hhhmmmm would never have made it to the hero series finals with orochi and he would have been rinsed every game. With orochi, he got out of his group,losing only to tech abuse, and he had close fights where the difference was not what he or his opponent did but that he was on uneven ground and teching a guardbreak knocked him over,so basically he got put to a huge disadvantage in the fight he was knocked out in due to a bug. During that tournament, we saw the whole orochi kit used with both deflects, strom rush and riptide all scoring solid strikes. He is a counter attacking burst damage character whose player base is calling for 'safe openers' and wondering why they are losing in trading damage against characters more built around trading, if they are going to try to use an orochi like a conqueror against a conqueror of course they are going to look weak in comparison.

Well flicker I believe was allowed in that tourney too I believe. But your point still stands.
People just have the sad habit of latching onto "the thing" with a kit. and then thinking they know/understand the whole kit.
Like people only focusing on pk's zones/lights when the rest of her kit is pretty dang strong.
Or people only focusing on glad's zone and toe stab. when the rest of their kit is strong.
etc.

I think the only time I ever see an entire kit mentioned by the masses is shaman these days just because the same sentence is repeated so much that it's basically a meme now.