PDA

View Full Version : overbuffing and more mistakes



SenBotsu893
02-01-2018, 08:32 PM
i usually wait till i get the full patchnotes to read through but i need to get this out now.

why is the devteam so biased towards vikings and knights? its always the same when it comes to balancing:
vickings and knights get so overbuffed while the samurai get the short end of it.


the Highlander changes are waaaay to extreme. i would understand a little buff but that far exceeds the realm of reason.

then they go ahead and make sure shaman gets her free damage from mercy no matter what while still keeping the 400 ms cheese with wallsplat unchanged. not to mention her ludacris throwdistance with guranteed mercy/hunger. or the ridicules hard cc granting 50 damage and selfheal. seriously shaman is far from reasonable.


meanwhile they take the single samurai that has some worth and nerf her more than they buff. by the way:
giving her second wind was already a nerf. why? becasue she still uses blissfull respite animation wich renders her voulnerable longer than the standard second wind animation.

As if they specifically want to discourage everyone to pick up any samurai character.

same goes for samurai feats:

bows got the damage nerfs early on while bombs grant more damage now and have aoe on top of that making them even more versitile (e.g. clearing out minions)
lvl 2 kunai do less damage than the knights lvl2 flashbang while the flashbangs also have the aoe and are enough to clear out the WHOLE B point on certain maps.
catapult trumps any other lvl 4 aoe feat. the samurai arrow storm cant even kill a single person since the effective radious is so small and comes in volleys.

I can already see it: Kensei rework will be pale in comparison to berserker and Conq. Please proof me wrong next week.

FredEx919
02-01-2018, 08:41 PM
Well one thing I can say for sure is that the upcoming Kensei changes are really solid. If nothing else, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with that side of things.

RLTygurr
02-01-2018, 08:46 PM
Personally I think it's one of those "different on paper than in reality" kind of situations. For all we know, the Highlander changes may just be quality of life stuff rather than serious buffs to his character. Really it just increases the reward for all the stuff he has to do, most of which was high risk to begin with. It's only fair.

The nobushi changes I think are okay, I like that they're trying to balance her out but I think reducing the first light after hidden stance's damage may have been a bit too much. Not sure yet, since that honestly seems to REDUCE her 1v1 potential, which wasn't what they intended to do as far as I know.

As far as feats, yeah Nobushi's second wind animation should be faster to be honest. Kunai has like a 15 second cooldown and does a light's worth of damage while being hard to predict and dodge. I'd say it's one of the better offensive tier 2 feats. Catapult is and almost always will be extremely powerful, but then again, viking spear storm and firebombs are pretty ridiculous as well. Samurai arrow storm just needs to have the timing between waves reduced A LOT to be effective. Currently you can just dodge out of it since there's so much time between waves.

Illyrian_King
02-01-2018, 08:46 PM
Now Highlander is a freakin wreckingball ^^

Knight_Raime
02-01-2018, 08:51 PM
The holding heavy to go into OF with celtic curse is a nice change but it will still be readable. Point is it gives him an option.
The cooldowns being removed sounds OP but unless they've adjusted stamina cost numbers and just didn't say so on stream it's not as big of a boon as you'd think. He's still gonna OOS himself a lot. Damage buffs are kay but again don't really help much. Second light of defensive form would be used to try and bait someone. But no one swings those really considering how unsafe and parryable they are. The cabar toss buff was probably the best buff.
Really he just needed a stamina cost reduction in OF across the board, a bit more health, and a bit faster with some moves. These sound interesting and I can't wait to see them. But to say they overbuffed him is just hilarious.

It was a bug that people could actually not be in range after her heabutt. You're nitpicking.
Pretty sure they said they were nerfing throw distance on her. Not touching the rest of this salty statement.

According to a competitive top tier player who's played bushi with these changes she's no OP in 4v4 anymore and slightly better in 1v1.
Kick is now guaranteed after a hidden stance heavy wether that heavy is blocked or lands.
and you can still light after a kick whiff.
Her being GBable in kick is only within 500ms window. Which only raider is capable of punishing. So it effected one matchup. woop.
She didn't really need buffing. Vipers retreat needed love. and HS stamina cost could have been reduced. they did one of those things.
She mainly just needed a nerf in 4v4. and it looks like they've managed to do that without ruining her.

CrimsonDragon99
02-01-2018, 08:54 PM
I was reading and a little disappointed in your "problems" with the Highlander buff. Literally needed a buff like this. He's super slow and very predictable to fight against. I praise Highlander and Conq mains do to their ability to play such underwelming characters. You probably don't fight them enough to understand how they are, or you don't have enough skill to be able to counter the easily parryable attacks. This Buff including the reworks will make them feel loved and new players looking to main either of them welcome.

BTTrinity
02-01-2018, 09:08 PM
Highlander gets a multitude of buffs.... Nobushi cant even get a slight speed buff without losing over half her damage for it.... ffs

The_B0G_
02-01-2018, 09:59 PM
Highlander gets a multitude of buffs.... Nobushi cant even get a slight speed buff without losing over half her damage for it.... ffs

HL attacks are still slow as f, he basically got the ability to fast flow into Off stance without attacking, a damage buff, which he definitely needed seeing how slow his attacks are and his kick feint inyo caber toss will now work the way it was supposed to.

Defensive players will still parry mostly everything he has if the are patient. He still has basically assassin HP and underwhelming stamina for his stamina costs.

BTTrinity
02-02-2018, 01:05 AM
HL attacks are still slow as f, he basically got the ability to fast flow into Off stance without attacking, a damage buff, which he definitely needed seeing how slow his attacks are and his kick feint inyo caber toss will now work the way it was supposed to.

Defensive players will still parry mostly everything he has if the are patient. He still has basically assassin HP and underwhelming stamina for his stamina costs.

Oh, by no means was I trying to say Highlander is overpowered or anything, was just trying to point out how Nobushi cant even get a single attack speed buff without losing most of her damage for doing so, I agree with the zone nerf... It definitely has a lot going for it, but 8 damage lights out of HS (From 18)? Is this REALLY necessary considering what half the other characters in the game can do?

The_B0G_
02-02-2018, 01:10 AM
Oh, by no means was I trying to say Highlander is overpowered or anything, was just trying to point out how Nobushi cant even get a single attack speed buff without losing most of her damage for doing so, I agree with the zone nerf... It definitely has a lot going for it, but 8 damage lights out of HS (From 18)? Is this REALLY necessary considering what half the other characters in the game can do?

8 seems like a pretty big nerf, that doesn't include bleed damage though does it? I don't play nobushi so I'm not sure if every attack has bleed or not.

RLTygurr
02-02-2018, 01:11 AM
Oh, by no means was I trying to say Highlander is overpowered or anything, was just trying to point out how Nobushi cant even get a single attack speed buff without losing most of her damage for doing so, I agree with the zone nerf... It definitely has a lot going for it, but 8 damage lights out of HS (From 18)? Is this REALLY necessary considering what half the other characters in the game can do?

Keep in mind that 8 damage only applies to the first light out of HS, the second still does quite a bit in bleed and is guaranteed if the first lands. Really it's dropping damage from 30 something to 20 something, not including the ability to kick yet again afterwards. Trying to gb the kick is nearly impossible unless you're a raider, and is too risky as anyone else since that light attack after kicks does a decent bit of bleed damage that lasts awhile.

Highlander changes are A+. His kit was okay as it was, but his bad stat numbers coupled with the amount of commitment required to each of his worthwhile moves made him easy to counter, especially characters with dodge attacks. He innately lost most matchups simply because his only options were to parry, land a random gb, or do something that (somehow) isn't parried to get into offensive form and hopefully land a move.

BTTrinity
02-02-2018, 01:14 AM
8 seems like a pretty big nerf, that doesn't include bleed damage though does it? I don't play nobushi so I'm not sure if every attack has bleed or not.

That wasnt specified, if it includes bleed then shes going to be literal arse. Not every move,
her light finishers bleed (Third hit in the light combo, second hit in the light combo OUT OF HIDDEN STANCE)

Cobra strike (Side + Foward Dodge into Light)

Vipers Retreat (Walk Backwards + Light)

and you get a bleed attack for landing Kick and Throwing

BTTrinity
02-02-2018, 01:16 AM
Keep in mind that 8 damage only applies to the first light out of HS, the second still does quite a bit in bleed and is guaranteed if the first lands. Really it's dropping damage from 30 something to 20 something, not including the ability to kick yet again afterwards. Trying to gb the kick is nearly impossible unless you're a raider, and is too risky as anyone else since that light attack after kicks does a decent bit of bleed damage that lasts awhile.

Highlander changes are A+. His kit was okay as it was, but his bad stat numbers coupled with the amount of commitment required to each of his worthwhile moves made him easy to counter, especially characters with dodge attacks. He innately lost most matchups simply because his only options were to parry, land a random gb, or do something that (somehow) isn't parried to get into offensive form and hopefully land a move.

They said her Kick was changed so that she will be able to get guardbroken if someone tries immediately after dodging it, in other words they're making it so she will get guardbroken before her light gets thrown.

They also never specified if it was the first light or both the first and the bleed finisher.

Knight_Raime
02-02-2018, 01:51 AM
They said her Kick was changed so that she will be able to get guardbroken if someone tries immediately after dodging it, in other words they're making it so she will get guardbroken before her light gets thrown.

They also never specified if it was the first light or both the first and the bleed finisher.

Someone who is well known on the competitive reddit has already played with the nobu changes.
they said nobu is only GBable within a 500ms window on the kick. essentially meaning only raider is really going to be able to punish it.

BTTrinity
02-02-2018, 02:12 AM
Someone who is well known on the competitive reddit has already played with the nobu changes.
they said nobu is only GBable within a 500ms window on the kick. essentially meaning only raider is really going to be able to punish it.

Oh, I see. Thanks

HazelrahFirefly
02-02-2018, 03:36 AM
Oh, I see. Thanks

Wouldn't Shaman also be able to, or do I have numbers wrong?

Knight_Raime
02-02-2018, 11:02 AM
Oh, I see. Thanks

pope posted the patch notes discussed on todays den. the 8 damage is without bleed. I believe it dropped double poke damage from 42 damage to 34? i'd have to go look again.


Wouldn't Shaman also be able to, or do I have numbers wrong?

No. Because raider (used to be raider AND warlord) can mid dodge GB. This is why raider is able to punish quite a bit of situations others can't.
SO while both pk and shaman have a 500ms dodge they will exit dodge (from dodging the kick) at the same time the window to GB the kick is gone.
Where as raider can just dodge and GB in the middle of his dodge to catch her.

HazelrahFirefly
02-02-2018, 01:50 PM
Ahhh gotcha, thanks. I have minimal Raider experience and zero warlord experience lol.

Pain-Seeker
02-02-2018, 01:50 PM
What about orochi lol.I get that his parry punish would be huge compared to others but their way of buffing other things is completly useless. Giving deflect more dmg is nice but since parry is going to be a lot safer after the patch why would anyone go for a deflect ? And saying they want us to use riptide strike is a fking joke . The dmg on that skills hardly matters since its so inconsistent that its useless. It should work similar to nobushis hidden stance or if that seemed too OP they should at least give it a SA . Iam not sure how it is on gamepay but me playing with k+m i have to pretty much put my fingers on keyboards in advice to be able to pull it off on light . And if i time it right i still get hit out of it 90% of time . They asked for opinions on his rework , buff , change or whatever months ago they all they could do i nerf his only attk that made him viable . I guess they want orochis to spam their zone even more -__-

Knight_Raime
02-02-2018, 01:59 PM
What about orochi lol.I get that his parry punish would be huge compared to others but their way of buffing other things is completly useless. Giving deflect more dmg is nice but since parry is going to be a lot safer after the patch why would anyone go for a deflect ? And saying they want us to use riptide strike is a fking joke . The dmg on that skills hardly matters since its so inconsistent that its useless. It should work similar to nobushis hidden stance or if that seemed too OP they should at least give it a SA . Iam not sure how it is on gamepay but me playing with k+m i have to pretty much put my fingers on keyboards in advice to be able to pull it off on light . And if i time it right i still get hit out of it 90% of time . They asked for opinions on his rework , buff , change or whatever months ago they all they could do i nerf his only attk that made him viable . I guess they want orochis to spam their zone even more -__-

They nerfed his double light in response to parry nerfs.
How exactly are parries going to be safer now?
The point of buffing his deflect is to encourage deflect usage as his main method for punishing.
Not a bad idea since deflects go largely unused and it's almost entirely due to how strong parries were.

Knight_Raime
02-02-2018, 02:00 PM
Ahhh gotcha, thanks. I have minimal Raider experience and zero warlord experience lol.

same. I just follow the competitive scene because I obsess over things I like.
d:

Pain-Seeker
02-02-2018, 02:47 PM
They nerfed his double light in response to parry nerfs.
How exactly are parries going to be safer now?
The point of buffing his deflect is to encourage deflect usage as his main method for punishing.
Not a bad idea since deflects go largely unused and it's almost entirely due to how strong parries were.

I like how you totaly skipped the riptide stirke part. Since there wont be GB on heavy parry anymore ppl wont be as afraid to parry these even when opponent feints . Thats not the case for deflect . And as i said in first post i know that they ve nerfed it because of parry changes . Its just the buff they gave us in exchange is not as good . This will make orochi even more tutrle and wait for others attks to do something . Baiting and waiting for enemy to do something so i can get at least one storm rush in whole duel was already pretty annoying .

Knight_Raime
02-02-2018, 02:52 PM
I like how you totaly skipped the riptide stirke part. Since there wont be GB on heavy parry anymore ppl wont be as afraid to parry these even when opponent feints . Thats not the case for deflect . And as i said in first post i know that they ve nerfed it because of parry changes . Its just the buff they gave us in exchange is not as good . This will make orochi even more tutrle and wait for others attks to do something . Baiting and waiting for enemy to do something so i can get at least one storm rush in whole duel was already pretty annoying .

because I didn't watch the stream. So i'm not going to comment on something you said they said unless it's mentioned in patch notes.
I mean. if people are going to be more aggressive now by attempting to parry moves that's a good thing.
People don't turtle to deflect. regardless of how strong a deflect is because deflects are risky.