PDA

View Full Version : Should we have further cannon range?



ruuti0
01-31-2018, 09:31 PM
I think that perhaps cannon fire range should go further than in previous versions. I always felt in Anno that maybe cannon range could be further.

If I remember correct Anno developers said that we aren't going to get land combat (I personally always liked Anno more without land combat), but I would like to able to shoot further than it was possible in previous Annos. This would give us chance to damage enemy's infastructure further without taking whole island to our control. I don't say that range should be whole island, but in my opinion it could perhaps be further than before and give chance to do serious damage to enemies' infastructure instead of just shooting few buildings around coast.

I am not 100% sure that is this good idea, so I ask your opinion also my fellow Annoholics!

What you guys think? Should cannons have further range than in previous versions?

Can you give pros and cons if you have opinion on this.

stylisticsagi
02-01-2018, 09:57 AM
if think if they gonna make combat naval only they should indeed invest some more in it.
however canon range will only scale things a bit and they would not really have that much of an impact.

This is diffrent of course if some ships would have (significantly) larger ranges over other ships.
personally i think they could work more around (trading) ships being able to fire on the move. If they do so they perhaps do more or less damage when fireing from the front/rear then they would when fireing from the sideways.

Another thing wich always bothered me on anno naval warfare is that ships collide into each other so you have aroun 20 ships standing in the place where realisticly 4 ships could be and from there they unlease some kind of minigun canon fire XD.

but back on topic the canon ranges also depend on how big they have scaled the ships themselfs. If a ship can fire further inlands it would mean the ship would be quite big. Wich would actually not be a real problem cuz the scaling on anno has always been very wrong (but for obvious reasons). If we look at a standard farm building, most ships in anno series where smaller or same size as a standard farm building, yet in reality most ships are 20x the size of a standard farm building...

AgmasGold
02-01-2018, 11:07 AM
I think that longer cannon ranges would make sense cinematically, and would make ship battles look very cool. Of course it wouldn't make as much realistic sense to have super long range canons, but from a gameplay point of view, it would look cool.

ruuti0
02-01-2018, 06:28 PM
Becuase we don't have land troops, I think only way we would be able to destroy (at least some of) enemy buildings in inland would be having further range.
Otherwise it end up in situation where you can only destroy enemy buildings on coast.

After 2070 I really miss that opportunity that you can destroy enemy buildings in inland too.

ruuti0
02-02-2018, 05:05 PM
This is diffrent of course if some ships would have (significantly) larger ranges over other ships.

personally i think they could work more around (trading) ships being able to fire on the move. If they do so they perhaps do more or less damage when fireing from the front/rear then they would when fireing from the sideways.


I like also idea that certain ships could shoot further than others.

For example it would be good if ships that you can build early couldn't shoot so far, but ship models that come available later game could shoot further and damage more buildings in enemy islands.

This way your buildings couldn't be destroyed inland in early game, but it would come possible later.

What you think about this idea and do you have more ideas how to do it?

And little off-topic but should there be possibly chance of developing cannons (like in university) so for example each ship model (or defense turret) would get extra damage power (like +10%/+15%/+20%), what you guys think?

In 2070 we had possibility to develope boosters that gave certain ship models or defence turrets extra firepower boost, but my idea is little bit different and would affect all cannons.





I think that longer cannon ranges would make sense cinematically, and would make ship battles look very cool. Of course it wouldn't make as much realistic sense to have super long range canons, but from a gameplay point of view, it would look cool.

You are right that it wouldn't be realistic to have super long range cannons (though I don't know are we having same image about range), but many times unrealistic things can bring great gameplay experience and things being too realistic can make gameplay less good experience. And in Anno series, sizes of different things never been realistic (which isn't problem), they have more focused on great gameplay.

What you think that how far cannon fire range should go?

iruet
02-02-2018, 06:05 PM
And little off-topic but should there be possibly chance of developing cannons (like in university) so for example each ship model (or defense turret) would get extra damage power (like +10%/+15%/+20%), what you guys think?

I like this idea, it's kinda like development of new cannons!

ruuti0
02-04-2018, 06:03 PM
I like this idea, it's kinda like development of new cannons!

Yep, and that way we don't have to develope boosters for different kind of warships separately, instead we could level their firepower with developing cannons in university.

stylisticsagi
02-05-2018, 11:37 AM
Yep, and that way we don't have to develope boosters for different kind of warships separately, instead we could level their firepower with developing cannons in university.

I like this idea also BUT ONLY...
when it are items or goods.
I still would like to see it like the original anno 1602 in wich every ship you made(even warships) had no weapons at all, but you had to go to your warehouse and load your cannons.
Then every ships even the first trading ships could be armed this way.
If this is a go then you could be able to produce diffrent canons with diffrent stats for example a standard canon, an advanced canon wich increases range, and an advanced canon wich increases damage.
Since anno is mostly an economic game i also would like if ammo is introduced in the game.
The canon foundry for example could standard make canon ammunition but you have to create canons(items) there manually so you won't have a huge stockpile of canons but you do get one for ammo.

If you really wanna do it properly you can have your ships load a certain amount of ammunition whenever they pass a warehouse wich has ammo.
Nobody likes repetitive micro managment.

iruet
02-05-2018, 12:21 PM
I like this idea also BUT ONLY...
when it are items or goods.
I still would like to see it like the original anno 1602 in wich every ship you made(even warships) had no weapons at all, but you had to go to your warehouse and load your cannons.
Then every ships even the first trading ships could be armed this way.
If this is a go then you could be able to produce diffrent canons with diffrent stats for example a standard canon, an advanced canon wich increases range, and an advanced canon wich increases damage.
Since anno is mostly an economic game i also would like if ammo is introduced in the game.
The canon foundry for example could standard make canon ammunition but you have to create canons(items) there manually so you won't have a huge stockpile of canons but you do get one for ammo.

If you really wanna do it properly you can have your ships load a certain amount of ammunition whenever they pass a warehouse wich has ammo.
Nobody likes repetitive micro managment.

Sounds like an good idea :)

It makes the game more realistic and would it make harder to capture a better defended island :)

ruuti0
02-05-2018, 05:55 PM
I like this idea also BUT ONLY...
when it are items or goods.
I still would like to see it like the original anno 1602 in wich every ship you made(even warships) had no weapons at all, but you had to go to your warehouse and load your cannons.
Then every ships even the first trading ships could be armed this way.
If this is a go then you could be able to produce diffrent canons with diffrent stats for example a standard canon, an advanced canon wich increases range, and an advanced canon wich increases damage.
Since anno is mostly an economic game i also would like if ammo is introduced in the game.
The canon foundry for example could standard make canon ammunition but you have to create canons(items) there manually so you won't have a huge stockpile of canons but you do get one for ammo.

If you really wanna do it properly you can have your ships load a certain amount of ammunition whenever they pass a warehouse wich has ammo.
Nobody likes repetitive micro managment.

I don't like going so far that you would have to even think how much you have cannonballs in ships, but I could live with moving cannons to ships. But I have to say current system is pretty good that everything come ready when ship is build!

iruet
02-06-2018, 11:15 AM
I would like going so far, cozz that allows you to have a thougher PvE/PvP system. And it adds extra complexity into the game :)

ruuti0
02-06-2018, 03:28 PM
I would like going so far, cozz that allows you to have a thougher PvE/PvP system. And it adds extra complexity into the game :)

To what post you replied?

stylisticsagi
02-06-2018, 03:41 PM
To what post you replied?

I think the post related on wich you answered i wouldn't go that far.

But anyways it doesn'have to be a complex system.
The only thing a wich a bit bugged me was that warships fighting has always been to cheap once you have them.

Warships firing moving and attack cost you just as much as leaving them in your harbour. Repairing your ships also cost nothing.
In the very first anno 1602 your ships could only be repaired at a shipyard and it costed you wood and cloth (the two items also needed to create ships).

Also having to block a enemy port and you can endlessly shoot every building there is or is rebuild was a bit unrealistic.
I don't think you should run out of ammo quikly far from it but it should be a supply wich makes you think not to shoot fisher huts wich costs next to nothing unless you really want to.

ruuti0
02-06-2018, 04:03 PM
I think the post related on wich you answered i wouldn't go that far.

But anyways it doesn'have to be a complex system.
The only thing a wich a bit bugged me was that warships fighting has always been to cheap once you have them.

Warships firing moving and attack cost you just as much as leaving them in your harbour. Repairing your ships also cost nothing.
In the very first anno 1602 your ships could only be repaired at a shipyard and it costed you wood and cloth (the two items also needed to create ships).

Also having to block a enemy port and you can endlessly shoot every building there is or is rebuild was a bit unrealistic.
I don't think you should run out of ammo quikly far from it but it should be a supply wich makes you think not to shoot fisher huts wich costs next to nothing unless you really want to.

Yeah I thought that first that he posted it to my last post, but then I saw his earlier post above my post where he said "Sounds like an good idea", which is competely opposite what he said now.

I understand why you like idea about limited ammunitions, but there come one problem:

In anno you can endlessly delete and rebuild buildings, so if you are losing one building that is getting heavy fire, you can delete it (get items back) and build new.

You could abuse & exploit that and make enemy warships lose their ammunitions every time for nothing.

stylisticsagi
02-06-2018, 07:03 PM
well for a start there was often in anno games the option for half refun or no refund at all.
Apart from that in 1404 and 2070 you where unable to do anything with a building wich was getting affected with a disaster and something attacking it was seen as a disaster therefore the building would get destroyed as long as it's under attack.

ruuti0
02-10-2018, 02:47 PM
well for a start there was often in anno games the option for half refun or no refund at all.
Apart from that in 1404 and 2070 you where unable to do anything with a building wich was getting affected with a disaster and something attacking it was seen as a disaster therefore the building would get destroyed as long as it's under attack.

Yep, but we don't know how it is done in Anno 1800. If you can delete them during attack, then warships with ammunitions can be exploited really easily in game.

stylisticsagi
02-10-2018, 09:00 PM
well IF the game would consider ammunition you could also need some for defensice turrets and if you delete them you lose there stack of ammo as well just like you lose products in factories when you delete them.

ruuti0
02-10-2018, 09:44 PM
well IF the game would consider ammunition you could also need some for defensice turrets and if you delete them you lose there stack of ammo as well just like you lose products in factories when you delete them.

Even so, it still wouldn't be big problem, because you could have factories inland too and you could bait enemy warships to waste all their ammunitions with creating and deleting buildings near cost and soon they would have to leave empty handed.

stylisticsagi
02-10-2018, 10:35 PM
Well the whole point was so warships don't just attack every single building in the harbour there is and even staying abit on the ocean and really block the harbour from ships going in or out.
So that in accountance the goal would have been achieved... The defending player would then have at least a chance to build up a fleet in the harbour to counter attack rather then every ship wich get's finished is instantly destroyed if not every shipyard wich get's build is instantly destroyed.

ruuti0
02-11-2018, 10:37 AM
Well the whole point was so warships don't just attack every single building in the harbour there is and even staying abit on the ocean and really block the harbour from ships going in or out.
So that in accountance the goal would have been achieved... The defending player would then have at least a chance to build up a fleet in the harbour to counter attack rather then every ship wich get's finished is instantly destroyed if not every shipyard wich get's build is instantly destroyed.

Only thing those ships with limited ammo could do if stop ship sailing in and out (if they can attack them).

Against buildings enemy could just exploit limited ammo idea and wait that they waste their ammo, which would mean that those warships could become totally useless vs island buildings themselves.

I don't know about you, but I would like to do some real damage (or some damage at all) to enemy infrastructure and it can't be done if enemy just exploit delete-rebuild option that come with limited ammo option.

And if they can't attack your island (in practice), then they can just wait that you build ship and destroy it with superior fleet, and then it doesn't make any sense to try build ships for you.

In light of that it doesn't make much sense having limited ammos.

stylisticsagi
02-11-2018, 12:47 PM
Well it prevents you from stopping a player to get back on it's feet.
This you can only do if you have defeated the enemy fleet so i don't get your point of this makes warships useless.
The only thing it does is discourage you from parking your warships into the enemy harbour so he would not be stuck.
And you can still do that if you have plenty of ammo or you have a supply ship nearby.
And if you attack an island and the other player would be forced to delete buildings he is being punished quite hard as it is.
There are plenty of options to prevent this from being free for him.

and if this tiny possible exploit is a reason to decline a system wich would be very fresh and fitting into an economic game, i'd suggest you come with a better reason.

ruuti0
02-11-2018, 03:15 PM
Well it prevents you from stopping a player to get back on it's feet.
This you can only do if you have defeated the enemy fleet so i don't get your point of this makes warships useless.
The only thing it does is discourage you from parking your warships into the enemy harbour so he would not be stuck.
And you can still do that if you have plenty of ammo or you have a supply ship nearby.
And if you attack an island and the other player would be forced to delete buildings he is being punished quite hard as it is.
There are plenty of options to prevent this from being free for him.

and if this tiny possible exploit is a reason to decline a system wich would be very fresh and fitting into an economic game, i'd suggest you come with a better reason.

"Well it prevents you from stopping a player to get back on it's feet."

it does a lot of more, it practically stop you from damaging opponent (expect his fleet) at all.

It would kill one of key aspects of the game, which is war. You could only destroy opponents ships.
In my opinion that wouldn't be Anno game anymore, in Anno you can destroy opponent also with war.



This isn't tiny exploit, this is huge exploit, it would kill one of key aspect of the Anno
, change the game to totally another kind of game.

Limited ammo just don't fit to Anno, if Anno continue to be like it was in 2070.

All realistic ideas just don't fit to good gameplay, sometimes fictional way is much better.
I am sure Anno developers also realized this same thing long time ago (about ammo etc).

stylisticsagi
02-15-2018, 12:24 PM
You all look this the wrong way.
Ammo would prevent you from shooting stuff wich just isn't worth it.
Will this prevent you from estroying and re-destroying every building within range? no
Will this prevent this from completly drying a player out? no

The only thing this does is making a blokade apart from the initial investment cost the attacking player also something over the big losses the defending/defeated player is losing.
Possible givving the attacking player a reason to retreat at some point if he does not have supply ships.
Right now keeping a single warship parked in the defeated harbour is enough to prevent a player to every get back on it's feet there without reinforcements from other islands wich in early game are simply non-existent.

so i ask you, wich aspect is getting killed here?

ruuti0
02-15-2018, 06:02 PM
You all look this the wrong way.
Ammo would prevent you from shooting stuff wich just isn't worth it.
Will this prevent you from estroying and re-destroying every building within range? no
Will this prevent this from completly drying a player out? no

The only thing this does is making a blokade apart from the initial investment cost the attacking player also something over the big losses the defending/defeated player is losing.
Possible givving the attacking player a reason to retreat at some point if he does not have supply ships.
Right now keeping a single warship parked in the defeated harbour is enough to prevent a player to every get back on it's feet there without reinforcements from other islands wich in early game are simply non-existent.

so i ask you, wich aspect is getting killed here?

"Ammo would prevent you from shooting stuff wich just isn't worth it."

I don't think we need to such artificial obstacles to prevent doing us stuff, that
worked great in previous Annos. I know I surely don't want that to happen.

"Will this prevent you from estroying and re-destroying every building within range? no"

Yes it actually do prevent you doing that if opponent exploit idea of limited ammos.


" Will this prevent this from completly drying a player out? no"


This wasn't about drying a player out, this was about destroying his coast buildings.
If he still does delete+build+delete.. scenario, with unending ammos you can make sure
he can't benefit from his coast buildings, with limitd ammo, he just keep deleting and rebuilding
them until you run of ammo and you have to leave for moment, which time he can benefit
from coast buildings.


" Right now keeping a single warship parked in the defeated harbour is enough to prevent a player to every get back on it's feet there without reinforcements from other islands wich in early game are simply non-existent."

A single warship can attack just one building at time, so a single warship is pretty much useless
also if enemy understand delele+rebuild idea. Multiple warships start to give effect that you need.

I also made earlier ideas that you could make such alliances with NPCs that they would be forced to attack enemy, if you pay them enough and then you would also defend when they needed.
Also you could just get taxes from your citizen until you can buy fleet from NPC (which was option for example in 2070), also working option.

stylisticsagi
02-16-2018, 09:07 AM
How many times do i have to repeat myself...
1404 had it, 2070 had it, 1800 will probably have it to.

Whenever a building is under attack it has an icon above him to alert it's under attack.
As long as this icon is present the player will be unable to delete the building just the same as houses who have a disaster on them happening.

you should also not see limited ammo as: ow **** i have to count my shots
You should see it as you cannot be firing forever and above all you cannot do it for free.

perhaps a minor system on this could also be used.
Each time a ship fires you lose a little amount of gold.

I think you all underestimate how much cannonballs in those days cost. They where everything but cheap...

ruuti0
02-16-2018, 04:34 PM
How many times do i have to repeat myself...
1404 had it, 2070 had it, 1800 will probably have it to.

Whenever a building is under attack it has an icon above him to alert it's under attack.
As long as this icon is present the player will be unable to delete the building just the same as houses who have a disaster on them happening.

you should also not see limited ammo as: ow **** i have to count my shots
You should see it as you cannot be firing forever and above all you cannot do it for free.

perhaps a minor system on this could also be used.
Each time a ship fires you lose a little amount of gold.

I think you all underestimate how much cannonballs in those days cost. They where everything but cheap...

I have played Anno 2070 many many times and I never noticed that you couldn't destroy building that is under attack (I have deleted and recreated them many times during attack), don't remember how it was in 1404.

You are right that in reality this wouldn't make any sense, but games are mix of realism and fiction
and not all real things work good in games, sometimes fictional way is much better, I find unlimited ammo in Anno one of those things.
Price of cannonballs have nothing to do with this.

I already explained why.