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View Full Version : Orochi "major balance pass"



Knight_Raime
01-31-2018, 07:28 PM
Since we have an idea on what the difference between a rework and a balance pass is I wanted to revisit Orochi (my first love) and give feed back suggestions on how to make him better. I realize the devs have not confirmed any reworks past this season. But they left the door open for it. So I just want to get this out there. If this receives positive feedback I may visit other heros I have an interest in. But to me Orochi is the best place to start as he's pretty solid as is and just needs touch ups. hence "major balance pass" and not "rework." Orochi in my mind is the original counter attacker. many of his moves based on whiff punishing. However as is there isn't much reason to use many of those tools. So today I want to address that.

~Top light double hit damage brought down by a little.
It's still going to be a staple. But with other suggestions I think it's only fair to bring their lethality down a little.

~Third light in the light>light>light combo is now a heavy and can turn into an unblockable when used from either the left or right. meaning if I double top light and then third light from say left it's now unblockable. If done in the top it's still the same. the third light would be 600ms. and feintable.
This would serve as an opener for orochi to force a reaction. But due to it being forced to come from left or right it would be some what predictable.

~Storm rush now is faster, can be canceled later, and hits harder. But it no longer guarantees top lights unless you're whiff punishing a long recovery attack/dodge.
The main issue with the alpha storm rush was on top of being super fast and very cancelable it was easily performed. this is no longer the case. Making it a strong tool for punishing and viable for attempting to initiate an attack seems fair especially if it doesn't give free damage in most cases anymore.

~Storm rush can be soft canceled into either dodge attack or his forward dash attack. When soft canceling from this form his dodge animations are slightly faster.
This is mainly to help storm rush be a better fight starter. Since the dodge animation still has to play out even in the soft cancel people should be able to react to it eventually.

~Riptide strike now has proper dodge frames like hidden stance. and can be held to delay the attack for more damage. if held long enough it can go unblockable and it is feintable.
Again another change aimed at making his counter options have a reason to be used. the potential for it being unblockable also gives another way to potentially get in on someone by forcing a reaction.


I don't think either deflect option needs to be touched. windgust does good damage as is. And hurricane blast can be used a multitood of ways. Yes you can technically roll away from it if you respond fast enough. But this is honestly never done. even in play against good players from what i've witnessed. It's entirely different than wardens SB as that's his mainstay use ability. deflect isn't used often. So people don't have the reaction time or experience to reliably dodge it. and even if they did orochi can just change it up with his play. Warden can't. And parry in general is getting nerfed. so we should see more deflect attempts.

wolfman25br
01-31-2018, 08:57 PM
Agreed,
But any change at all is welcome.
Orochi gameplay its stale.

Knight_Raime
01-31-2018, 09:13 PM
Agreed,
But any change at all is welcome.
Orochi gameplay its stale.

true. Probably part of the reason why people think he's bad.

HazelrahFirefly
01-31-2018, 09:21 PM
Love these, and one other thing I suggest: make his deflect+light guaranteed, even if he takes damage. Right now the Ara and Shaman can stagger him out of it because their lights are so fast.

Knight_Raime
01-31-2018, 09:24 PM
Love these, and one other thing I suggest: make his deflect+light guaranteed, even if he takes damage. Right now the Ara and Shaman can stagger him out of it because their lights are so fast.

Deflects in general can be interrupted on chains/multi hit attacks. like zerkers zone as an example. The point of deflect is that it's riskier. if you can land the hit anyway despite being hit then that ruins the risk. That claim about shaman though is interesting. i'll have to go try it myself.

wolfman25br
01-31-2018, 09:47 PM
true. Probably part of the reason why people think he's bad.

He is not. its mid tier. (low depending on matchup)
But the fun factor was lost long ago.

HazelrahFirefly
02-01-2018, 01:19 AM
Deflects in general can be interrupted on chains/multi hit attacks. like zerkers zone as an example. The point of deflect is that it's riskier. if you can land the hit anyway despite being hit then that ruins the risk. That claim about shaman though is interesting. i'll have to go try it myself.

I've read other people saying that, but never seen it until season 4.

Regardless... right, exactly. That **** needs to change. Its ALREADY a huge risk to go for a deflect because you are throwing your body into an attack as opposed to blocking or parrying. To have another layer of risk that you could be hit, and then ANOTHER layer by being staggered out of it is madness. Borders on trolling by the devs if you ask me.

Deflect+Lights need to be guaranteed. Can still take damage, but the attack gets off and connects no matter what.

SphericalChip53
02-01-2018, 06:21 AM
I've read other people saying that, but never seen it until season 4.

Regardless... right, exactly. That **** needs to change. Its ALREADY a huge risk to go for a deflect because you are throwing your body into an attack as opposed to blocking or parrying. To have another layer of risk that you could be hit, and then ANOTHER layer by being staggered out of it is madness. Borders on trolling by the devs if you ask me.

Deflect+Lights need to be guaranteed. Can still take damage, but the attack gets off and connects no matter what.

Back when I mained Valk before any DLC, I would spear sweep assassins out of their deflect follow-up all the time, even if it was an unblockable, because the spear sweep animation is uninterruptible. Deflects have been rare since the release of the game because they're hard to consistently pull off on console and they don't even guarantee anything on certain characters because it doesn't interrupt combos.

HazelrahFirefly
02-01-2018, 11:13 AM
Back when I mained Valk before any DLC, I would spear sweep assassins out of their deflect follow-up all the time, even if it was an unblockable, because the spear sweep animation is uninterruptible. Deflects have been rare since the release of the game because they're hard to consistently pull off on console and they don't even guarantee anything on certain characters because it doesn't interrupt combos.

I have no idea what your point is.

Also, the spear sweep can be interrupted. Perhaps not when the game started, I dont know, I didn't join on until season 2.

Knight_Raime
02-01-2018, 03:38 PM
I've read other people saying that, but never seen it until season 4.

Regardless... right, exactly. That **** needs to change. Its ALREADY a huge risk to go for a deflect because you are throwing your body into an attack as opposed to blocking or parrying. To have another layer of risk that you could be hit, and then ANOTHER layer by being staggered out of it is madness. Borders on trolling by the devs if you ask me.

Deflect+Lights need to be guaranteed. Can still take damage, but the attack gets off and connects no matter what.

Only way I can see that happening is if they added uninterruptable status on deflects. I'm not saying i'm against the idea. I'm just not entirely sure how needed it would be.
Then again I play duels. It would probably be hugely beneficial in 4's.

PDXGorechild
02-01-2018, 04:15 PM
I always had you pegged as a Warden main. This has kinda shattered my mental image of you a bit.

Anyway

Actually one of the most sensible ideas I've heard around balancing Orochi. Agree that the top light needs toning down, especially if parry changes still allow for light attacks. Otherwise he'd still get roughly the same damage as most classes do with a parry > heavy.

Storm rush changes sound great. Always thought it was unnecessarily slow and highly situational.

The light > light > side unblockable idea. The shaman already has something like this. It looks as though Berserker might get it as well. I agree Orochi needs an unblockable to force a reaction but fear it may make the Assassins a bit monotone if they all have it. No suggestion to put in it's place really, just a thought.

Orochi's deflect needs looking at. I pity him. It seems very underwhelming compared to my Berserker's, which stops the enemy dead in their tracks and allows for a free heavy. Even when I deflect by accident (50% of the time) I still usually manage to take advantage of it. Can't say the same when i've played Orochi though. A lot of the time it's a trade at best. Not very high reward for such a high risk move.

BarbeQMichael
02-01-2018, 04:45 PM
Orochi overally indeed needs some love. While he is actually very deadly with the best attack in game and practically unreactable zone, he is also very boring to fight with and against, and thus becomes predictable too and with good reflexes you can almost completely negate him.

If the double light gets removed, he could get the buffs mentioned (or some form, i'm not a balancing specialist), but I am hesitant with giving unblockables to assassins, unless its some form of melee which stuns and/or deals minimal damage. They are already the best class in game by simply what they gain over other classes. Just look at PK, best char (well hard call between shaman/shin/glad) in game and she does it without any unblockables.

Knight_Raime
02-01-2018, 05:10 PM
I always had you pegged as a Warden main. This has kinda shattered my mental image of you a bit.

Anyway

Actually one of the most sensible ideas I've heard around balancing Orochi. Agree that the top light needs toning down, especially if parry changes still allow for light attacks. Otherwise he'd still get roughly the same damage as most classes do with a parry > heavy.

Storm rush changes sound great. Always thought it was unnecessarily slow and highly situational.

The light > light > side unblockable idea. The shaman already has something like this. It looks as though Berserker might get it as well. I agree Orochi needs an unblockable to force a reaction but fear it may make the Assassins a bit monotone if they all have it. No suggestion to put in it's place really, just a thought.

Orochi's deflect needs looking at. I pity him. It seems very underwhelming compared to my Berserker's, which stops the enemy dead in their tracks and allows for a free heavy. Even when I deflect by accident (50% of the time) I still usually manage to take advantage of it. Can't say the same when i've played Orochi though. A lot of the time it's a trade at best. Not very high reward for such a high risk move.

nah only got 1 and a half rep with warden about. Most of the heros that i've played I only have about one rep in them. I bounce around a lot and really only duel which means I only do orders I can do in duel. not to mention the huge amounts of private matches I did with friends..anyway orochi has 2 reps for me. my centurion has 5 or 6? I forget. Shinobi almost has 2. and so on.

Yeah she does. But it's only to her left. his would be left or right. and he could feint the unblockable in either to go for a cheeky zone. So a bit different mix ups there.

I think his windgust does 25? damage so it's as good as a parry. and hurricane blast does a good amount. and has mix up potential.
If the enemy is dodging, soft feint to GB. If they're going to attempt to hit you with an attack you can trade due to the armor. but if it's a meaty hit you can soft cancel to wind gust. and if they have the forsight to roll away you can cancel back dash into storm rush for a catch.

Knight_Raime
02-01-2018, 05:13 PM
@Barbe

Pk is sort of a special case though. Her lights are very poorly telegraphed in combination with having a 400ms second light if the first lands. (if I remember right) She also has bleed which is very accessible to her. and again another basically unreadable zone. I don't think every assassin should get an unblockable. Orochi technically doesn't need one since he's a counter attacker. But I feel like both of the unblockables I suggest fit his theme rather well.

(for whatever reason it didn't quote you)