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View Full Version : The one thing I ask for the Nobushi Buff



BTTrinity
01-26-2018, 11:40 PM
To be able to use her dodge attacks like assassins, right now she can only use the attacks at the beginning of a dodge, so the window to make use of the dodge is very tight.

The_B0G_
01-26-2018, 11:58 PM
Sure, as long as she gets a nerf to zone damage.

Maxime_Qc-
01-27-2018, 12:17 AM
Lolll look at this guy asking for nerf a low tier character that as allready lost his best feats ... for no reason....

That's funny **** right there !!! xD...

Reading noob is Allways hilarious

BTTrinity
01-27-2018, 12:57 AM
Sure, as long as she gets a nerf to zone damage.

Even though her zone is one of the worst attacks in the game now? if you have issues with her zone then I have no idea how you put up with half the other stuff in this game.

Jarl.Felix
01-27-2018, 01:02 AM
Even though her zone is one of the worst attacks in the game now? if you have issues with her zone then I have no idea how you put up with half the other stuff in this game.


Nice try, kiddo.

ChampionRuby50g
01-27-2018, 01:15 AM
I agree with Bog. With Way of the Shark, her zone does simply way too much damage. She’s a strong 4v4 hero, and her Zone is far from the worst. Do you even know what LBs zone is like?

BTTrinity
01-27-2018, 01:17 AM
a 600 ms zone, if you guys have an issue with it idk what to tell you... I parry her zone like 80% of the time, its one of the easiest zones to deal with.

ChampionRuby50g
01-27-2018, 01:25 AM
a 600 ms zone, if you guys have an issue with it idk what to tell you... I parry her zone like 80% of the time, its one of the easiest zones to deal with.

There’s more to attacks and zones than just speed that make it difficult to react to. There’s how it’s telegraphed by the actual character, sure it might be 600ms but until you actually see her start to open the zone up you got 500ms to react. I see Nobushis use zone all the time when fighting multiple opponents or one, and I believe you can cancel it as well to chain into other attacks.
So again, it’s far from the worst.

BTTrinity
01-27-2018, 01:28 AM
There’s more to attacks and zones than just speed that make it difficult to react to. There’s how it’s telegraphed by the actual character, sure it might be 600ms but until you actually see her start to open the zone up you got 500ms to react. I see Nobushis use zone all the time when fighting multiple opponents or one, and I believe you can cancel it as well to chain into other attacks.
So again, it’s far from the worst.

True, isnt the worst but its still not good, and VERY easy to deal with. I've seen brand new players parry it with 0 issues...

Also, its 600ms from start to end. You have 600ms to react, if her zone needs a nerf then so do others.

Since were gonna talk about zones, something Ive always wondered... Why do you get free grabs for blocking warden zone, but not Orochi and PK who both have even faster zones.

ChampionRuby50g
01-27-2018, 01:41 AM
True, isnt the worst but its still not good, and VERY easy to deal with. I've seen brand new players parry it with 0 issues...

Also, its 600ms from start to end. You have 600ms to react, if her zone needs a nerf then so do others.

Since were gonna talk about zones, something Ive always wondered... Why do you get free grabs for blocking warden zone, but not Orochi and PK who both have even faster zones.

So it isn’t 600ms from when she inputs it to when the first swing connects? Or did I misunderstand you.

That’s an issue with game design. It needs to be normalised in that case. Only reason I can think of is that PK and Orochi are Assassins, and for some reason they shouldn’t be as punishable as a Vanguard whose whole move set fills up one page.

BTTrinity
01-27-2018, 02:04 AM
So it isn’t 600ms from when she inputs it to when the first swing connects? Or did I misunderstand you.

That’s an issue with game design. It needs to be normalised in that case. Only reason I can think of is that PK and Orochi are Assassins, and for some reason they shouldn’t be as punishable as a Vanguard whose whole move set fills up one page.

I'm pretty sure its a 600ms from input to it connecting, I also feel its pretty telegraphed.

I can agree with that, and also see that being the case.

Kryltic
01-27-2018, 02:30 AM
The Nobushis' zone attack is easy to deal with. Most good Nobushi players will try to cancel it after the first swing.

My thoughts would be;
Up her damage to normal levels. Keep her bleed damage increase and use it as a buff. (She seems to have a slightly lower damage output without bleed due to Way of the Shark).
Increase the speed of all of her attacks slightly. Its too easy to parry her attacks.
Significantly speed up her kicks and slightly increase the tracking.
Reduce the stamina cost of Hidden Stance.
Side Slash attacks doesn't seem to dodge. Allow this to actually dodge attacks if timed correctly.
Also slightly increase her health (20) and stamina pool (10).
As a final point, increase her movement and dodge speed slightly or allow her more ways to increase the distance with opponents as this is supposed to be one of her main strengths.

ChampionRuby50g
01-27-2018, 03:05 AM
The Nobushis' zone attack is easy to deal with. Most good Nobushi players will try to cancel it after the first swing.

My thoughts would be;
Up her damage to normal levels. Keep her bleed damage increase and use it as a buff. (She seems to have a slightly lower damage output without bleed due to Way of the Shark).
Increase the speed of all of her attacks slightly. Its too easy to parry her attacks.
Significantly speed up her kicks and slightly increase the tracking.
Reduce the stamina cost of Hidden Stance.
Side Slash attacks doesn't seem to dodge. Allow this to actually dodge attacks if timed correctly.
Also slightly increase her health (20) and stamina pool (10).
As a final point, increase her movement and dodge speed slightly or allow her more ways to increase the distance with opponents as this is supposed to be one of her main strengths.

Nobushi does not need a Health or Stamina increase. She could use for some stamina cost decreases on attacks, but increasing her stamina with that would be too much.
Every hero with the exceptions of Glad, Shinobi, Cent, Beserker and Raider has 120 Stamina. She doesn’t need to go above everyone else in that regard.
Now, a woman who does not have any form of protective Armor at all is supposed to have the same base health as some of the most heavily armoured heroes in the game is also absurd. She would have 140 HP with your suggestion, 10 less than LB, the same as Conq, Warlord and Raider, and more than Warden. She is not designed to be a tank hero with high damag output, which is what your suggestions are implying she be.

The_B0G_
01-27-2018, 03:10 AM
600 ms isn't that bad if you catch people off guard, I've been maining HL for the last few months, 600ms is good IMO, unless if you're 1v1 its the same as any other attack, it csn be parried, but she can hit with it on distracted opponents very easily, 50 damage a pop and is spammable she has nearly 50 damage on a GB and bleed damage on every little poke.

I played Nobushi once a month ago and went 9-2 by just keeping my distance and using lights. She doesn't need a buff, and if she gets one, she needs a nerf somewhere else. She is not a weak hero.

BTTrinity
01-27-2018, 03:31 AM
600 ms is bad, when people parrying 500ms has become pretty standard.

Personally, I dont want a lot done to her... Just make her dodge attacks not worthless, give kick hyper armor, reduce HS stamina cost, get rid of HS stamina regen delay. If they nerf her zone dmg, increase its speed to 500ms

You cant deny, she has THE WORST dodge attacks and unblockable bash in the game, on top of some of the slowest light attacks.

The_B0G_
01-27-2018, 03:41 AM
600 ms is bad, when people parrying 500ms has become pretty standard.

Personally, I dont want a lot done to her... Just make her dodge attacks not worthless, give kick hyper armor, reduce HS stamina cost, get rid of HS stamina regen delay. If they nerf her zone dmg, increase its speed to 500ms

You cant deny, she has THE WORST dodge attacks and unblockable bash in the game, on top of some of the slowest light attacks.

I don't know the number off the top of my head but I know with HL and kensei my lights get parried very often. Valk has pretty bad dodge attacks as well, usually you get hit trying to pull them off, and a lot of heroes don't even have dodge attacks so it's not that bad.

Nobushi is what you make of her, like kensei, to me she is more balanced than most, she has better damage than HL and she has a stick with a knife on it and is half the size and much more mobile. She also has bleed properties which is pretty OP in general now.

BTTrinity
01-27-2018, 04:19 AM
I don't know the number off the top of my head but I know with HL and kensei my lights get parried very often. Valk has pretty bad dodge attacks as well, usually you get hit trying to pull them off, and a lot of heroes don't even have dodge attacks so it's not that bad.

Nobushi is what you make of her, like kensei, to me she is more balanced than most, she has better damage than HL and she has a stick with a knife on it and is half the size and much more mobile. She also has bleed properties which is pretty OP in general now.

Yeah, and they're pretty eh as well because of how easily read and reactable their attacks are, all of the OG cast needs a buff in some way (Besides LB, hes fine) to match the standards of the DLC heroes. I personally dont think my list of buffs would be "OP" it would just make her a bit more fluid.

Also, if they want everything to be as strong as the DLC heroes (Sham, Shino, Glad, [Arguably] Cent) like they said, no those 2 are far from balanced and are bottom tier. Also, I can agree with Bleed being really strong, I think Bleed should not synergize between classes (Nobushi applying bleed to Shugoki, should not allow her teammate Shaman to bite Shugoki.... Shamana should have to apply the bleed in order to use her kit, likewise for Nobushi.)

The_B0G_
01-27-2018, 05:55 AM
I'm very neutral when it comes to this game, 600 ms is a strp above the fastest light attacks, you're complaining about a 50 damage 600 ms attack, cmon guys. If you don't spam it you wikl be able to use it. I use HL andyou k ow what I get from a GB? 25 dmg if I use my zone. Nobushi gets at least 45 per gb...

The_B0G_
01-27-2018, 05:58 AM
She is well off... if she gets a buff, she neefs a nerf, is all I'm saying. Because it's true.

Kryltic
01-27-2018, 03:14 PM
I never mentioned reducing her stamina costs for attacks, just a small stamina increase instead.

At the moment her attacks are slow and weak. They are weaker than normal due to Way of the Shark. What I forgot to mention was to slightly reduce the Way of the Shark effect to increase her normal damage output. Overall this would have no additional damage to bleeding targets but it means shes not forced to try and bleed an opponent to actually do some decent damage.

The health increase is because one of her supposed traits is the ability to retreat well. This in fact is not the case, especially with so many unblockables and long range or quick attacks. Since she isn't getting an overhaul or new animations then the health boost makes up for this to some extent. It gives her a little more time to try and make a retreat to keep fighting. Personally I would give her new ways to keep her distance but we know this wont happen.

Also the last thing I'd do to boost her is look at some of the feats available to her. I have a huge problem with just how awful Iron Lungs, Arrow Strike and (to some extent) Long Bow are in game. To me these are some of the worst feats in the game and results in the Nobushi really only having 9/10 to choose from.

ChampionRuby50g
01-27-2018, 03:28 PM
I never mentioned reducing her stamina costs for attacks, just a small stamina increase instead.

At the moment her attacks are slow and weak. They are weaker than normal due to Way of the Shark. What I forgot to mention was to slightly reduce the Way of the Shark effect to increase her normal damage output. Overall this would have no additional damage to bleeding targets but it means shes not forced to try and bleed an opponent to actually do some decent damage.

The health increase is because one of her supposed traits is the ability to retreat well. This in fact is not the case, especially with so many unblockables and long range or quick attacks. Since she isn't getting an overhaul or new animations then the health boost makes up for this to some extent. It gives her a little more time to try and make a retreat to keep fighting. Personally I would give her new ways to keep her distance but we know this wont happen.

Also the last thing I'd do to boost her is look at some of the feats available to her. I have a huge problem with just how awful Iron Lungs, Arrow Strike and (to some extent) Long Bow are in game. To me these are some of the worst feats in the game and results in the Nobushi really only having 9/10 to choose from.

I never said you did, I said that’s what she needs. She needs those areas buffed instead of an overall buff to her stamina, increasing her stamina flat would be too much.

Nobushi still has the best range in the game besides Shinobi, and parrying a lot of her attacks results in no punish on the player but the Nobushi punishing the player for parrying due to a whiffed GB which leaves them open. HS is an effective retreat tool used to back up a little causing players to whiff an attack and been punished from Nobushi. She has a back step poke attack (dunno the name) that manages this as well. Making up for it “to some extent” with a massive health buff is the wrong way to go about it, because even you admit that it’s not going to fix your issue. Having more health also gives her the option to be a tank class, and as a Hybrid-Assassin she should not have 140HP.

Having 9/10 to choose from sounds pretty good to me. That’s an overwhelming majority, how could you have a problem with that?

BTTrinity
01-27-2018, 04:44 PM
She is well off... if she gets a buff, she neefs a nerf, is all I'm saying. Because it's true.

I honestly don't agree or disagree (Its hard to explain)... But if her damage gets nerfed, her speed needs a buff... because her attacks are some of the most telegraphed things in the game. Her heavy's and lights and zone are all VERY EASY to differentiate, so that's probably why she deals lots of damage.

Another buff Id like to see is swift recoil i-frames (Admit it, its useless) or replace her back dodge with it.

BTTrinity
01-27-2018, 04:53 PM
I never said you did, I said that’s what she needs. She needs those areas buffed instead of an overall buff to her stamina, increasing her stamina flat would be too much.

Nobushi still has the best range in the game besides Shinobi, and parrying a lot of her attacks results in no punish on the player but the Nobushi punishing the player for parrying due to a whiffed GB which leaves them open. HS is an effective retreat tool used to back up a little causing players to whiff an attack and been punished from Nobushi. She has a back step poke attack (dunno the name) that manages this as well. Making up for it “to some extent” with a massive health buff is the wrong way to go about it, because even you admit that it’s not going to fix your issue. Having more health also gives her the option to be a tank class, and as a Hybrid-Assassin she should not have 140HP.

Having 9/10 to choose from sounds pretty good to me. That’s an overwhelming majority, how could you have a problem with that?

I can agree with all of this, in duels Nobushi cant hold her stamina for the life of her....

Nobushi's issue with retreating isnt solved by raising her health... Its the fact her dodge attacks can hardly dodge half the attacks in the game, and her swift recoil is.. pretty bad... requires block to be used, can be interrupted, grants no i frames....

The_B0G_
01-27-2018, 05:02 PM
I honestly don't agree or disagree (Its hard to explain)... But if her damage gets nerfed, her speed needs a buff... because her attacks are some of the most telegraphed things in the game. Her heavy's and lights and zone are all VERY EASY to differentiate, so that's probably why she deals lots of damage.

Another buff Id like to see is swift recoil i-frames

The devs were actually talking about this, saying she needs a rebalance across the board, they want to bring her zone damage down but doing so will have her needing a buff in other areas.

Arekonator
01-27-2018, 05:05 PM
Nobushi zone attack is one of the best in a game. Sure, not in 1v1, you have few better than that, but in fight with multiple people, its fast enough to punish lot of stuff on reaction and depending on positioning, if you are on her right side, it hits you pretty much instantly. She is definitelly one of the most powerfull characters in team modes. Not sure if i would nerf it, but if you have to nerf something, the zone damage is probably the first target.

BTTrinity
01-27-2018, 05:28 PM
Nobushi zone attack is one of the best in a game. Sure, not in 1v1, you have few better than that, but in fight with multiple people, its fast enough to punish lot of stuff on reaction and depending on positioning, if you are on her right side, it hits you pretty much instantly. She is definitelly one of the most powerfull characters in team modes. Not sure if i would nerf it, but if you have to nerf something, the zone damage is probably the first target.

Fair enough, I agree. According to frame data its around 570ms avg so its faster than I thought. How do you feel about the few buffs I suggested?

-Making it so she can use her dodge attacks a bit later into the dodge like assassins (this one I want to see the most, her dodge attacks are pretty worthless)

-HS Stamina Cost Reduction and get rid of stamina regeneration delay.

-Give kick hyper armor.

Arekonator
01-27-2018, 06:04 PM
Hard to say, honestly.
I dont see her dodge attacks the same as assassin dodge attacks, those are punishment tool. As nobushi i mainly use her dodge attacks as extension of the recovery cancel dodge provides and allow me to instantly go into next attack instead of recovery. That being said, the very small dodge window can annoy me greatly and i woudnt mind the i-frames being extended say 100-200ms into the start of the attack.
HS cost reduction i can get behind, but i would keep the regen delay on the level of standard dodge. But honestly i also woudnt mind if HS isnt touched at all, given how powerfull it is.
Because how slow and easily avoidable the kick is, i dont think giving it hyper armor will really accomplish anything.

Jiblet2017
01-27-2018, 06:34 PM
I'm very neutral when it comes to this game, 600 ms is a strp above the fastest light attacks, you're complaining about a 50 damage 600 ms attack, cmon guys. If you don't spam it you wikl be able to use it. I use HL andyou k ow what I get from a GB? 25 dmg if I use my zone. Nobushi gets at least 45 per gb...

I don't know where you are getting 50 damage an attack from. Her 600ms portion of her zone deals 33 damage (which is not so crazy when you look at things like orochi 500ms double tops for 32 damage). Also good luck even landing a zone in the first place against a bleeding opponent (which would bring the damage up to 40) as they will need to have the bleed applied and have a zone land within the bleed window (which any compitent opponent will be looking for and simply guard left). Also - The attack is certainly not spammable as 2 zones will leave you nearly oos (even if the second part is feinted).

However, I will say that if she is slated for buffs they should fix her unlocked zone. It is much less telegraphed if positioned correctly and is unparryable. I'm fine with a high damage reward as long as it has the associated risk of an easy parry.

I agree that her dodge is weak as far as evasion goes But she also has access to HS. Like another poster pointed out, she has some fairly unique recovery cancel properties that make her dodge attacks situationally useful. The only drawback is that if you throw out too many consecutive attacks with nobushi you are begging to get parried.

The_B0G_
01-27-2018, 07:35 PM
I don't know where you are getting 50 damage an attack from. Her 600ms portion of her zone deals 33 damage (which is not so crazy when you look at things like orochi 500ms double tops for 32 damage). Also good luck even landing a zone in the first place against a bleeding opponent (which would bring the damage up to 40) as they will need to have the bleed applied and have a zone land within the bleed window (which any compitent opponent will be looking for and simply guard left). Also - The attack is certainly not spammable as 2 zones will leave you nearly oos (even if the second part is feinted).

However, I will say that if she is slated for buffs they should fix her unlocked zone. It is much less telegraphed if positioned correctly and is unparryable. I'm fine with a high damage reward as long as it has the associated risk of an easy parry.

I agree that her dodge is weak as far as evasion goes But she also has access to HS. Like another poster pointed out, she has some fairly unique recovery cancel properties that make her dodge attacks situationally useful. The only drawback is that if you throw out too many consecutive attacks with nobushi you are begging to get parried.

I got hit with it multiple times today and yesterday, 48 dmg from both nobushi. Her gb heavy is about the same.

UbiJurassic
01-27-2018, 07:53 PM
Thanks for the feedback so far on the Nobushi, everyone! The announcement that Nobushi would be receiving major balance in the latest Warrior's Den seemed to take players by surprise, but I think most everyone will like the changes that will be coming to her. When we get those patch notes for Season 5 finalized, we'll be sure to post them over on the Official News and Announcements forum.

Kryltic
01-27-2018, 08:08 PM
She doesn't need stamina cost drops (except Hidden Stance) but only a slight stamina boost. This will have far weaker impact than what youre saying so please stop acting like my idea is the OP idea. Yes her stamina can be an issue in duels and brawls but in 4vs4 its a balancing factor.

Her standard attacks have a long range but she does not have the longest ranged attacks even excluding the Shinobi. Many characters can now jump or lunge when attacking and close the gap. This wasn't as prominent at first but now it is far more common. Once they close the gap the Nobushi is at her most vulnerable.

Most of her current retreating traits are not practical. The health boost helps make it possible to try and use some of them and less punishing if you fail to make the first possible retreat. Its the same kinda idea as the health boost for the Shinobi. Yes it wont fix it but we know they are not planning any major reworks, Im going off of that, thats why I suggest a health boost as the quickest solution. The only other one (I prefer this option) is to give her better dodging properties but that might end up involving too much work and I doubt it'll happen.

It means she has 2 or 3 completely pointless feats and then a couple of subpar feats. She only has 4-6 that are worth even thinking about. She has a poor selection and that can have a massive impact. Plus those three feats affect a lot of Samurai characters. Its a pet peeve about those if Im honest.

Kryltic
01-27-2018, 08:14 PM
Thanks for the feedback so far on the Nobushi, everyone! The announcement that Nobushi would be receiving major balance in the latest Warrior's Den seemed to take players by surprise, but I think most everyone will like the changes that will be coming to her. When we get those patch notes for Season 5 finalized, we'll be sure to post them over on the Official News and Announcements forum.

I think most of us weren't expecting her to get any love until later on.

She is my main and by far my most favourite character. My current ideas are simply because we've been told there no new animations so I'm thinking about the easiest changes with the smallest amount of effort.

I'm looking forward to hearing what ideas you guys have had.

Jiblet2017
01-27-2018, 10:45 PM
I got hit with it multiple times today and yesterday, 48 dmg from both nobushi. Her gb heavy is about the same.

I'm glad you could share your tangential experience with no actual suppprt. I'm sure with way of the shark active (+20%) and full attack gear (+25-30%), revenge, and various team buffs these numbers are possible. The same is possible for any high damage attack in the game ( for example: orochi double top lights with full attack gear, revenge, and sharpen blade can do well over 95 damage). However I assure you the base damage of her zone is 33 (with her top heavy off gb being 33 as well).

All of this info is availbe on the competitive sub reddit. Please check before spreading misinformation without any suppport. For reference check the competitive subreddit's spreadsheet under the attack value tab:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit?usp=sharing

Link to sub reddit post: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/5rxd8o/damage_values_for_most_characters/

Hope this helps clarify damage values for you moving forward!

The_B0G_
01-28-2018, 01:19 AM
I'm glad you could share your tangential experience with no actual suppprt. I'm sure with way of the shark active (+20%) and full attack gear (+25-30%), revenge, and various team buffs these numbers are possible. The same is possible for any high damage attack in the game ( for example: orochi double top lights with full attack gear, revenge, and sharpen blade can do well over 95 damage). However I assure you the base damage of her zone is 33 (with her top heavy off gb being 33 as well).

All of this info is availbe on the competitive sub reddit. Please check before spreading misinformation without any suppport. For reference check the competitive subreddit's spreadsheet under the attack value tab:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit?usp=sharing

Link to sub reddit post: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/5rxd8o/damage_values_for_most_characters/

Hope this helps clarify damage values for you moving forward!

So then a geared up nobushi can hit for nearly 50 with their zone... thanks for your super passive aggressive response that basically supports what I said.

Also you don't need revenge to get this damage out of Nobushi zone.

Arekonator
01-28-2018, 01:27 AM
I dont want to be a **** here, but if you bothered to actually check the spreadsheet you yourself posted, it shows nobushi top heavy as 38 base damage, which means 46 damage when bleed aplied.
this means just with bleed and gear applied, 50 dmg strike is well within realm of posibility

BTTrinity
01-28-2018, 02:54 AM
I can agree with her needing a rebalance across the board, if they're nerfing damage she does need to be a bit faster... etc one buff will lead to another thing being nerfed, to compensate they might have to buff something in that area as well....

Cant wait to see what they do with her, really hyped up for next season

Jiblet2017
01-28-2018, 05:30 AM
I dont want to be a **** here, but if you bothered to actually check the spreadsheet you yourself posted, it shows nobushi top heavy as 38 base damage, which means 46 damage when bleed aplied.
this means just with bleed and gear applied, 50 dmg strike is well within realm of posibility

Oops, sorry. Was looking at the line below.

My point was that you should be looking at base damage when balancing or it's easy to make any move look ridiculous (accounting for buffs, feats, gear, revenge).

Again, orochi double top lights deal just as much damage (one less) and are faster by 100ms. However, I would not discuss the move for balancing purposes by saying "the double lights do 95 damage" without mentioning that the orochi was fully geared and had sharpen blade active.

Discussing base damage simply provides a baseline for consistent comparison between kits. Saying "nobushi zone does 50 damage," or "I fought two and both did 48 damage" makes it seem like that is the base damage. A clearer statement would have been "a nobushi zone can do 50 damage."

Jazz117Volkov
01-28-2018, 08:54 AM
Nobushi's side dash light is a good counter for things like Warden shoulder bash, so maybe don't change that too much.

Her dash heavy could really use some work though; something like Kensei's dash light would be nice.

Soft feint into kick would be a good opener too.

The_B0G_
01-28-2018, 01:24 PM
Oops, sorry. Was looking at the line below.

My point was that you should be looking at base damage when balancing or it's easy to make any move look ridiculous (accounting for buffs, feats, gear, revenge).

Again, orochi double top lights deal just as much damage (one less) and are faster by 100ms. However, I would not discuss the move for balancing purposes by saying "the double lights do 95 damage" without mentioning that the orochi was fully geared and had sharpen blade active.

Discussing base damage simply provides a baseline for consistent comparison between kits. Saying "nobushi zone does 50 damage," or "I fought two and both did 48 damage" makes it seem like that is the base damage. A clearer statement would have been "a nobushi zone can do 50 damage."

You don't need feats active to get that zone damage though, just high level gear, which doesn't take long to get, I've been playing since the beta so I don't need to look up a spreadsheet to know how much damage her zone does.

The devs also have said they are wanting to nerf her zone attack, also comparing orochi top lights with bleed on isn't an accurate comparison either, so maybe take a page out of your own book and make clearer statements as well, nubushi zone can hit multiple people and doesn't need a feat active to achieve high damage.

BTTrinity
01-28-2018, 02:31 PM
Nobushi's side dash light is a good counter for things like Warden shoulder bash, so maybe don't change that too much.

Her dash heavy could really use some work though; something like Kensei's dash light would be nice.

Soft feint into kick would be a good opener too.

I just want a little bit longer of a window to dodge with those moves.

Knight_Raime
01-28-2018, 03:10 PM
Honestly wasn't expecting Bushi to receive a major balance pass. imo she's just underrated. She's got issues but she's not poor.
If I had to guess zone is probably going to take a hit some how (probably in the damage department) given how strong it is to throw randomly after recovery canceling or just whenever in 4v4 group fights.

IMO hidden stance should cost less stamina for sure. maaaaaybe speed it up slightly. So it could be better used on reaction. But I could see that pushing her power a bit too much. so maybe not do that part. The back poke (vipers retreat?) could be made more useful. it's pretty niche right now. I think her unblockable kick is fine as is. the fact that it can be delayed and she's pretty safe when using it means people don't really try to punish it.

Other than hidden stance stamina cost and vipers retreat getting tweaked i'm unsure how else they could really make her better without changing her identity.

BTTrinity
01-28-2018, 04:55 PM
Honestly wasn't expecting Bushi to receive a major balance pass. imo she's just underrated. She's got issues but she's not poor.
If I had to guess zone is probably going to take a hit some how (probably in the damage department) given how strong it is to throw randomly after recovery canceling or just whenever in 4v4 group fights.

IMO hidden stance should cost less stamina for sure. maaaaaybe speed it up slightly. So it could be better used on reaction. But I could see that pushing her power a bit too much. so maybe not do that part. The back poke (vipers retreat?) could be made more useful. it's pretty niche right now. I think her unblockable kick is fine as is. the fact that it can be delayed and she's pretty safe when using it means people don't really try to punish it.

Other than hidden stance stamina cost and vipers retreat getting tweaked i'm unsure how else they could really make her better without changing her identity.

Making it so she can utilize the dodge part of her dodge attack :D Yeah, they need to be careful with her.... I really cant wait to see what they're doing next update.

Jiblet2017
01-28-2018, 06:09 PM
You don't need feats active to get that zone damage though, just high level gear, which doesn't take long to get, I've been playing since the beta so I don't need to look up a spreadsheet to know how much damage her zone does.

The devs also have said they are wanting to nerf her zone attack, also comparing orochi top lights with bleed on isn't an accurate comparison either, so maybe take a page out of your own book and make clearer statements as well, nubushi zone can hit multiple people and doesn't need a feat active to achieve high damage.

There is no need to get worked up. The orochi reference was just an example of why generally people refer to base damage for clarity sake - which you seem to agree.

It would be interesting if, instead of outright changing the nobushi dodge attack they simply widened the window for inputting the attack during the dodge. A larger inout window would allow for some interesting mind games: a) allow for a fast input for its dodge recovery cancellation properties or b) input the attack after the character model has moved some distance to utilize the evasive part of the dodge (while still avoiding a gb) .

Kryltic
01-29-2018, 02:33 AM
After playing a few more games with her (I've been working on new characters) and playing more Brawls and Duels I retract my comments about the stamina cost reductions. She definitely needs them across the board. I'm mostly a 4vs4 player and have my gear stat bonuses. I apologise about this part of my comments.

How about allowing her to retreat after a successful attack as well as a successful block? That would work better than a health boost and would keep true to her description. For example at the end of an attack you press A (on the xbox) and she auto jumps back.

I don't think her zone attack needs touching due to how easy it is to parry. You get two chances to ruin her day so its a high risk high reward.

I also agree about the hyper armour on her kicks plus the speed increase to them. That combined with her ability to retreat as part of an attack chain would play true to her description.

Xil_h
01-29-2018, 12:12 PM
She definitely needs a better Stamina management. I call her OOSushi. Fighting Centurion gives me nightmares. Also fighting turtles is really difficult as you lose to much stamina on a blocked attack.

Charmzzz
01-29-2018, 01:33 PM
She definitely needs a better Stamina management. I call her OOSushi. Fighting Centurion gives me nightmares. Also fighting turtles is really difficult as you lose to much stamina on a blocked attack.

You are doing Nobushi wrong. She is not a Duel Character. As Nobu you fight on the Minion Point in Dom or in Group Fights. There you just spam your Zone or Sidewinder, the wide arc of the attacks will always kill some minions for health regen or randomly hit opponents. Btw you cannot parry attacks when you are not the logged on target of the Nobu.
THIS makes her completely over the top in any group fight. 5m range (feels like this), wide arc (360° on zone, got hit by an enemy Nobu on every side), heavy aoe damage (33 and 25), massively spammable due to recovery on dodge and unparryable if you lock on a target which is out of your range.

Xil_h
01-29-2018, 02:14 PM
You are doing Nobushi wrong. She is not a Duel Character. As Nobu you fight on the Minion Point in Dom or in Group Fights. There you just spam your Zone or Sidewinder, the wide arc of the attacks will always kill some minions for health regen or randomly hit opponents. Btw you cannot parry attacks when you are not the logged on target of the Nobu.
THIS makes her completely over the top in any group fight. 5m range (feels like this), wide arc (360° on zone, got hit by an enemy Nobu on every side), heavy aoe damage (33 and 25), massively spammable due to recovery on dodge and unparryable if you lock on a target which is out of your range.

Well.. I am still new to the game.
But that aside, you just can't always avoid 1v1 combat. I quickly find myself in 1v3 situations more often than 2v1 or 3v1. I think it's part of the skill bracket I am in, with lots of new and bad players. Heck I lost so many games cuz team members keep hitting me in the back (dropping the Tribute etc) blocking retreat path and dodge room, not playing objectives...

BTTrinity
01-29-2018, 02:18 PM
You are doing Nobushi wrong. She is not a Duel Character. As Nobu you fight on the Minion Point in Dom or in Group Fights. There you just spam your Zone or Sidewinder, the wide arc of the attacks will always kill some minions for health regen or randomly hit opponents. Btw you cannot parry attacks when you are not the logged on target of the Nobu.
THIS makes her completely over the top in any group fight. 5m range (feels like this), wide arc (360° on zone, got hit by an enemy Nobu on every side), heavy aoe damage (33 and 25), massively spammable due to recovery on dodge and unparryable if you lock on a target which is out of your range.

There is no doing Nobushi wrong, if he wants to play her in duels then let him... Im sure the reason most Nobushi players go off to 4v4's is because thats the only place shes actually worth something... which is stupid, nobody should be balanced around 4v4's... Everyone should be balanced around 1v1's while 4v4's should be the afterthought


Btw you cannot parry attacks when you are not the logged on target of the Nobu.
THIS makes her completely over the top in any group fight. 5m range (feels like this), wide arc (360° on zone, got hit by an enemy Nobu on every side), heavy aoe damage (33 and 25), massively spammable due to recovery on dodge and unparryable if you lock on a target which is out of your range.

BS Just last night, I was being parried left and right by everyone that I wasnt locked onto... :( I remember it clear as day because there was this one AWESOME Shaman ruining my entire night, also trying to teac me how to fight her (Because I really suck at it)

Charmzzz
01-29-2018, 02:33 PM
There is no doing Nobushi wrong, if he wants to play her in duels then let him... Im sure the reason most Nobushi players go off to 4v4's is because thats the only place shes actually worth something... which is stupid, nobody should be balanced around 4v4's... Everyone should be balanced around 1v1's while 4v4's should be the afterthought

You are wrong. For Honor was advertised and sold with the focus on Dominion. Not as a traditional 1v1 Duel Fighter game. So the balance will evolve around 4v4, just as it did since release. And Nobu is not only "actually worth something" in 4v4. She is a must-have for every team that plays in higher skill levels and wants to win.

BS Just last night, I was being parried left and right by everyone that I wasnt locked onto... :( I remember it clear as day because there was this one AWESOME Shaman ruining my entire night, also trying to teac me how to fight her (Because I really suck at it)

I will record a video that will disprove your point. Unparryable attacks are still in the game, only the unlock tech got "fixed" (still some attacks seem to be unparryable when performed unlocked). But you cannot parry attacks that are directed to someone else. That is why it is common practice for every Nobu to lock on a target which is not in range and spam zone / sidewinder. Unpunishable, high range, wide arc, high damage attacks that come out super quickly cause of 0 recovery after dodge.

If you dont believe me, have a read here why Nobu is "busted in Team Modes" from SB.Alernakin who won the official Tournament with her (using mostly unlock zones):

https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1689479-Here-s-why-Nobushi-is-busted-in-team-modes?highlight=sb.alernakin



-- Zone attack. It's quick, deals at least 33 damage (more with bleed) and has great AoE, nigh 360 degrees. On top of that, it can be made unparryable by simply positioning yourself so that there's someone on your right. It is then quicker than Peacekeeper zone. It can be used to interrupt all attempts at an offensive action from the opponents, meaning it's very easy to punish with it. And if all of that wasn't enough, it is nigh unpunishable. All it takes to block attacks is feinting second part of zone and cancelling recovery with a dash, which makes it an attack with 0 recovery frames. If the opponent decides to guard break you in your dash, you can punish that attempt very easily with a dash attack.

-- Dash attacks. Not only are they quick and deal at least a bar of damage, they also have no recovery frames, just like the zone attack, making them unpunishable on reaction. They can also be chained together, meaning guard breaking while Nobushi dashes is unreliable at best and heavily punishable at worst. Just like the zone, both dash attacks can be unlocked in order to make them unparryable (unlocked cobra strike is also quicker than usual), and even if that weren't possible, you could very easily target the other player while you use sidewinder due to its extraordinarly wide arc. As a side note, sidewinder hitbox does not match the animation.

-- Zero recovery. I know I already mentioned this twice, but it's a very big part of why Nobushi is so strong. Zone, dash attacks and viper's retreat all have virtually zero recovery frames due to dash cancel, and that cancel is very hard to punish. There are two ways to even attempt to punish all of those attacks -- one is to predict them and attack at pretty much the same time as the Nobushi. The other is to try using a guard break every now and then if the Nobushi isn't using dash attacks after recovery cancel. Both of those ways are, however, very unreliable and highly punishable.

-- Revenge. Some people think the Nobushi issue would be solved if only tournaments started implementing revenge. That is, however, not true. I'll use Barace's post here to aid me: https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive...works_against/ Nobushi is always tagged with both enemies. This means that as long as the enemies are not also tagged with the Nobushi's ally, the game thinks that she is in a 1v2 when they attack her. In this situation her attacks give 0 revenge, and she gets 4x revenge. Once in revenge, her zone is amazingly strong and can turn the tide of battle very quickly.
Now that we got 2v2 out of the way, let's talk about 4v4.

-- Nobushi is the best 1vX character in the game. Any small mistake is easily punished with a zone attack, unlocked sidewinder is a 100% safe option due to its wide arc and being unparryable. The usual tactic in a 2v1 situation is to either use guard break into guaranteed damage or lock in the outnumbered player with CC. Nobushi has counterplay to both of those tactics -- if she reads a guard break correctly, that's free 33 unpunishable damage that she gets. If opponents try to use a lot of CC -- Nobushi can use her dash attacks for punish, or just zone if the one using CC abilities is on her right. Revenge just makes her all the more threatening.

-- Feats. Body count is by far the strongest level 1 feat in the game, and one of the strongest in general. It makes 1v1'ing a Nobushi in mid pretty much impossible -- usually you need at least two people to reliably kill her, and as already stated, Nobushi can win that situation as well. Pre-nerf revenge attack was the strongest level 2 feat in the game, however after nerf it is much weaker, therefore probably not a big issue. Her level 3 heal feat, however, can outheal demon embrace -- that's how strong it is. Combined with body count and the fact that Nobushi usually gets her feats the quickest, it makes her a very durable character that barely ever dies. Level 4 feats aren't much of an issue, fire bomb being strong in denying revives and end game fights, but other characters have similar or better level 4 feats.

-- Impact in team fights. Nobushi is the most important character in team fights. Killing one basically ensures victory, while losing your own spells disaster. Her insane zone AoE and damage, great range with dash attacks and, again, unpunishability all make her a must-have. You are simply at a disadvantage if you initiate a team fight without her.
I'm sure there are details that I've missed in this post, but I believe those are the main reasons Nobushi is one of the strongest characters in the game. I tried to make this thread as concise as possible while still having a lot of information.

And if anyone doesn't believe me -- I'm including VODs of the last three big 2v2 tournaments with the best players in the game. Hint: there are Nobushis in almost all of the teams that did well.

ScottJund's Brawler's Guild: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/145913024

Reddit 2v2 Tournament: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/148742214

HallofHeroes 2v2 Tournament: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149256069

Devils-_-legacy
01-29-2018, 02:37 PM
Really Have you got a video of that only asking because in my whole play time of for honor I've never been parried from someone I'm not locked on to from her aoe and Ive never been able to parry it unless there locked on or seen anyone do it

Charmzzz
01-29-2018, 02:40 PM
Really Have you got a video of that only asking because in my whole play time of for honor I've never been parried from someone I'm not locked on to from her aoe and Ive never been able to parry it unless there locked on or seen anyone do it

This. You just cannot parry attacks that are not directed to you. So many times I got hit by fully charged Shugo heavies and Raider chained Zones for massive damage even though I "parried" them correctly. Had to learn to dodge when fighting those characters that can abuse this "mechanic". Nobu is one of them.

BTTrinity
01-29-2018, 02:44 PM
Really Have you got a video of that only asking because in my whole play time of for honor I've never been parried from someone I'm not locked on to from her aoe and Ive never been able to parry it unless there locked on or seen anyone do it

No, I dont record my gameplay but ill start doing so from now on.

Devils-_-legacy
01-29-2018, 02:45 PM
Dam I thought I was dreaming then even excited I put that as a suggestion in s1 you should be able to parry any attack as long as your in range

Devils-_-legacy
01-29-2018, 02:47 PM
BT I would as Farr as I knew they haven't changed that mechanic I wish they did tho I'd be really happy if you proved us wrong tho

BTTrinity
01-29-2018, 02:48 PM
BT I would as Farr as I knew they haven't changed that mechanic I wish they did tho I'd be really happy if you proved us wrong tho

No worries, Im not taking it offensively or anything I just had a rough time last night with that but maybe it was my own fault (Maybe switching targets to late, and what not)

BTTrinity
01-29-2018, 02:50 PM
I will record a video that will disprove your point. Unparryable attacks are still in the game, only the unlock tech got "fixed" (still some attacks seem to be unparryable when performed unlocked). But you cannot parry attacks that are directed to someone else. That is why it is common practice for every Nobu to lock on a target which is not in range and spam zone / sidewinder. Unpunishable, high range, wide arc, high damage attacks that come out super quickly cause of 0 recovery after dodge.

If you dont believe me, have a read here why Nobu is "busted in Team Modes" from SB.Alernakin who won the official Tournament with her (using mostly unlock zones):

https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1689479-Here-s-why-Nobushi-is-busted-in-team-modes?highlight=sb.alernakin

Thanks, for the heads up. Ill definitely look into this more... I thought all the unlock stuff was fixed.