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slipBall
05-22-2006, 03:27 PM
I know some have problems keeping enemy aircraft in view. Tracking planes in this sim with normal color perception must help a little. I envey all of you who can see all colors. I have a real problem loosing enemy visual contacts, and I think its because I'm red/green color blind. Over forest, water, you name it, very aggravating http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

slipBall
05-22-2006, 03:27 PM
I know some have problems keeping enemy aircraft in view. Tracking planes in this sim with normal color perception must help a little. I envey all of you who can see all colors. I have a real problem loosing enemy visual contacts, and I think its because I'm red/green color blind. Over forest, water, you name it, very aggravating http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Von_Rat
05-22-2006, 03:36 PM
im red green blind too. i also have trouble tracking low planes. but i don't think alot of it has to do with color blindness. alot of people with perfect vision claim that planes turn invisable on them too.

videocards and invisable dots and bad lods i think have more to do with it than color blindness.

low flying tnbers like it this way, and they are a majority. when oleg tried to change it, granted his fix needed some tweaking, they screamed bloody murder. so he went back to invisadots.

foxyboy1964
05-22-2006, 03:50 PM
AFAIK I am not colour blind but I often loose sight of aircraft over trees etc. Of course, the 13" monitor I play on has probably got something to do with that. I am amazed to read that others play this game with no icons. I cant imagine how they identify aircraft. I've got to get within 70 or 80m before I can identify type. When building missions I always make sure the enemy aircraft are in the brightest skin possible. Doesnt really help, I still get my a$$ shot off.

LEBillfish
05-22-2006, 03:59 PM
Not sure why you are complaining about being colorblind......Think about the poor pilots during WWII, they had it much harder as wasn't everything back then "black & white/grayscale"?

domenlovrec
05-22-2006, 04:03 PM
I'm not red/green color blind but have problems with finding targets. Huge problems. Ou, identifying AC is easy part.

slipBall
05-22-2006, 04:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Not sure why you are complaining about being colorblind......Think about the poor pilots during WWII, they had it much harder as wasn't everything back then "black & white/grayscale"? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

now, now, LEBillfish women are the ones that spread this horrible affliction

slipBall
05-22-2006, 04:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
im red green blind too. i also have trouble tracking low planes. but i don't think alot of it has to do with color blindness. alot of people with perfect vision claim that planes turn invisable on them too.

videocards and invisable dots and bad lods i think have more to do with it than color blindness.

low flying tnbers like it this way, and they are a majority. when oleg tried to change it, granted his fix needed some tweaking, they screamed bloody murder. so he went back to invisadots. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Happy that I'm not alone. Do your sock colors match? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

slo_1_2_3
05-22-2006, 04:11 PM
It ain't just you, I have 20/13 vision as of 3 days ago witch aparently is above average and I can see all the colors but I too lose planes some times especially when I'm tryin to find em near the ground,is it just me or isn't this the point of camoflauge?

slipBall
05-22-2006, 04:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by slo_1_2_3:
It ain't just you, I have 20/13 vision as of 3 days ago witch aparently is above average and I can see all the colors but I too lose planes some times especially when I'm tryin to find em near the ground,is it just me or isn't this the point of camoflauge? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


20/13 wowhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif no wonder why your a eagle scout, you have eagle vishion http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

VW-IceFire
05-22-2006, 04:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by slo_1_2_3:
It ain't just you, I have 20/13 vision as of 3 days ago witch aparently is above average and I can see all the colors but I too lose planes some times especially when I'm tryin to find em near the ground,is it just me or isn't this the point of camoflauge? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have the same rating...or nearly...its more 20/15 which puts people like ourselves in a small group of people with better than perfect vision. Its somewhat commonplace but its not that easy to find.

But this doesn't help us one bit when we're playing this game. It would in real life but in this game we have a problem because the focus distance of our monitors simply means that we're using our close in vision and nearly everyone with 20/15 or 20/13 is slightly farsided by nature of our superb distance vision. So a person with 20/20 vision or 20/20 corrected is just as capable as we are.

Incidentally, the reason men can be colourblind and women are not has a small part to do in how men percieve motion and see in the dark better than women while women can see colours better. So Billfish (not meaning to pick on here) there can probably distinguish between colours better than 90% of the people she's up against. In this game that might be an advantage picking our a black pixel against a dark green background. On the other hand if that black pixel is moving like a bat out of hell across the screen then slipBall and Von_Rat is probably going to see it better.

Its all back and forth...advantage and disadvantage in any given situation.

The problem with 20/15 vision and staring at a computer screen is that its too close (even if its setup a proper distance away). This is why I sit near a window and can refocus my vision out down the street whenever the game is loading or when I'm waiting for something to happen. Takes the strain off.

WWMaxGunz
05-22-2006, 05:29 PM
I keep reading about this order the LW had about not engaging Yaks with nose scoop or different
antena mast. How can this be when 'as real as it gets' has invisible planes at 500m and maybe
I get really close I can see markings? By the time I could see such details I must shoot or
be be the prey.

Trouble I have seeing is not changed with screenshot print and magnifier. The LOD's are made
to blend and by scale of the game with playable wide view angle all things are 1/4 as wide as
real. There is no compensation to real except icons. 1/4 wide with pixels and then blend in
same exact shades and sharpness planes and ground equals dirty smeared goggles with small lens.
To me this has been the major weak point of the series, it needs compensation of more defined
LOD's with colors unused by land or sea instead of missing wings and purpose exact matching
colors. Ground far away has to be seen through more air, will not match a plane painted the
same color that is closer, that simple.

Waldo.Pepper
05-22-2006, 05:43 PM
I used to be 20/200 in my left eye, and a little bit better in my right eye. Thankfully laser eye surgery was invented.

Taylortony
05-22-2006, 05:56 PM
my biggest problem is spotting them in the air I see a black dot on the horizon, pour on the coals, whip everything in nice and clean and head off to engage at full chat to simply find the dot on the horizon is the remains of last nights curry / pizza / fish and chips splattered across the damn screen..... one day I must remember to clean this dang monitor.....

WWMaxGunz
05-22-2006, 05:58 PM
Slo and Slipball, could you PLEASE pre-shrink those Avatar pics?
They take a good while to load for dialups as they are HUGE and then the forum software
shrinks em down to correct size that you guys should have done ahead.

People get more bandwidth so the first thing to do is waste it....

Dr2GunzOD
05-22-2006, 07:19 PM
OT

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
This is why I sit near a window and can refocus my vision out down the street whenever the game is loading or when I'm waiting for something to happen. Takes the strain off. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Above is the best advice given in the entire post.

To clarify, color vision defects affect men more b/c it is X-linked recessive, and yes, a woman can have color defects.

OT off

Feathered_IV
05-22-2006, 09:31 PM
I'm red/green colour blind too.

A little tip for facing me online. If you are flying over water, choose a purple skin. Over land, select a nice red one. Trust me I won't know the difference.

Not good for ones love life either:

Me: "Honey, of course I remember our first date. You wore that red dress. Its my favourite."

Her: "Bastard! Its green."

Stigler_9_JG52
05-22-2006, 09:36 PM
It's not your eyes...it's the sim.

As much as people make of "how great the graphics are"... they seem to forget that it creates effects that completely fly in the face of established facts vis a vis visual acuity.

Here, a healthy "perch" or altitude advantage is a disadvantage, while the bottom feeders in the weeds enjoy a nice silhouetted view of the planes above them.

Visual acquisition is an INTEGRAL part of aerial combat, and this sim screws the pooch on it. It's that simple.

slo_1_2_3
05-22-2006, 09:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Slo and Slipball, could you PLEASE pre-shrink those Avatar pics?
They take a good while to load for dialups as they are HUGE and then the forum software
shrinks em down to correct size that you guys should have done ahead.

People get more bandwidth so the first thing to do is waste it.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
RGR can you tell me how?

horseback
05-22-2006, 09:55 PM
Some of the problems we have tracking a/c from above in this sim has to do with the size of our targets on the screen, and the limits of our video cards with the game's animation. Even with the computing and graphics firepower we enjoy today, it's tough for the computer to keep up with the shading/reflectance contrasts between airplanes and the ground beneath them.

Add how tiny the a/c look on even a 19 inch CRT screen, and you're bound to have problems.

I just went to a 26 inch widescreen LCD with a 1600:1 contrast ratio (yadayadayada-you're going to get sick of me mentioning this, but it really has transformed the game for me even more than TrackIR) and all the bells & whistles, and the images are almost the same size in Wide View on it as they were in Gunsight View on my 19 inch monitor. The video card has many more pixels to work with on each aircraft, and the aircraft are MUCH easier to track, even against the ground. It is still not as easy as in real life, of course, but it is far better than what I had before.

On a side note, those of you who are color blind might want to experiment with setting your video card to give you a greyscale or a semi monochrome display-you might be able to draw a better contrast out of your monitor that way. I know I could do that with my old ATI 9800 Pro, although i haven't played with my current NVidia cards to see if I can do that with them...

cheers

horseback

slo_1_2_3
05-22-2006, 10:09 PM
OK wwmaxgunz is this better for ya?

Tator_Totts
05-22-2006, 10:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stigler_9_JG52:
It's not your eyes...it's the sim.

As much as people make of "how great the graphics are"... they seem to forget that it creates effects that completely fly in the face of established facts vis a vis visual acuity.

Here, a healthy "perch" or altitude advantage is a disadvantage, while the bottom feeders in the weeds enjoy a nice silhouetted view of the planes above them.

Visual acquisition is an INTEGRAL part of aerial combat, and this sim screws the pooch on it. It's that simple. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

Viper2005_
05-22-2006, 10:36 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1391021644

Ask a stupid question...

As for colour blindness:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=129882

WWMaxGunz
05-22-2006, 10:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by slo_1_2_3:
OK wwmaxgunz is this better for ya? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess. You found out how to resample/resize I guess?

Hey, I got my badge like yours back in 74. Still got a whole box of embroidered patches
from 68 on, Philmont Arrowhead from 72. I understand they quit doing embroidered's for
small events and camps. Valley Forge Council here. BP.

slo_1_2_3
05-22-2006, 11:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by slo_1_2_3:
OK wwmaxgunz is this better for ya? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess. You found out how to resample/resize I guess?

Hey, I got my badge like yours back in 74. Still got a whole box of embroidered patches
from 68 on, Philmont Arrowhead from 72. I understand they quit doing embroidered's for
small events and camps. Valley Forge Council here. BP. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
well greater st louis are council here and they still do embroidered patches here just got one for a camporee

WTE_Ibis
05-23-2006, 02:31 AM
When the hell are they going to fix this log in problem!!
Sorry, I too am red green colour blind and cannot see or track low flying aircraft that my team mates can see and track.
I would love to be able to play this sim in black and white ( like it really was in 1944) I think this would help but can't get it to play in shades of grey.

.

Z4K
05-23-2006, 02:33 AM
I'm half blind: I can see things in front of me well enough, but things behind my head are totally invisible!

rnzoli
05-23-2006, 03:14 AM
maybe anti-aliasing is playing a part in this story, as distant objects (dots, distant LODs) blend into the background more (less sharp edges to recognize them)

i play only without icons, i have good eyes, i pull the 17' LCD monitor closer to me when playing, but i lose the enemy from time to time, and in this case, i simply tryi to climb back into safety

by the way, read the last part of this article: http://www.f-16.net/varia_article13.html


"I imagine there probably aren't too many people who can say they've seen the Thunderbirds' show from above. We circled over the field and watched until they finished. During the low-level routines it looked like they were right on the deck. Even these brightly-painted jets could be hard to see. A few times I would lose one and then pick it up again somewhere else."


Exactly what happens in the sim, if you get your settings right.

joeap
05-23-2006, 03:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Ibis:

I would love to be able to play this sim in black and white ( like it really was in 1944 ) I think this would help but can't get it to play in shades of grey.

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're kidding right? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

rnzoli
05-23-2006, 03:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tator_Totts:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stigler_9_JG52:
It's not your eyes...it's the sim.

As much as people make of "how great the graphics are"... they seem to forget that it creates effects that completely fly in the face of established facts vis a vis visual acuity.

Here, a healthy "perch" or altitude advantage is a disadvantage, while the bottom feeders in the weeds enjoy a nice silhouetted view of the planes above them.

Visual acquisition is an INTEGRAL part of aerial combat, and this sim screws the pooch on it. It's that simple. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't say the graphics are great, but 2 simple things don't work for two of you for some reason:

- if you have the alt advantage, and dive down, should you lose sight of the bandit flying at tree-top level, can you climb back to safety again? the enemy should not be able to follow-you, and if he tries, you will know where to find him again, slow and with no manovering ability http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

- coming from the direction of the Sun avoids any silhouette for the guy below, he will have no chance to see you or defend you?

slipBall
05-23-2006, 04:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Slo and Slipball, could you PLEASE pre-shrink those Avatar pics?
They take a good while to load for dialups as they are HUGE and then the forum software
shrinks em down to correct size that you guys should have done ahead.

People get more bandwidth so the first thing to do is waste it.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


hope this is better for you

carguy_
05-23-2006, 04:30 AM
Green/red ppl don`t have it much worse than ppl with good vision.It is the game.
Unfortunately dots are such small from 3km that blending into whole lot of green pixels is very easy and an issue.What troubles me is that some planes are dots that when blending into green/grey/blue background they turn on a light color and are clearly visible.
However majority of planes in IL2 as dots stay black whatever the background and the effect is the same as a fat guy who dresses in black clothes only - it looks slim.Dots?By being black they look tinier then they are.

There is an easy way to do this - in 3.01 dots were made out of many pixels that were hard not to see.

For ppl who think a camo can blend an aircraft into background making it invisible I say stop spilling BS around.Any plane will be easy to track and spot from distance up to 3km.In the game planes disappear even on 300m distance,especially against forests.

It is completely unrealistic for the pilot to see a pixel sized dot in a certain canopy glass plate,remember it being in this canopy plate,glancing on the instrument panel and losing the sight of mentioned silhouette completely.


Your eyes and monitor do play a role in this but screenshots themselves prove that visibility system is FUBAR.

rnzoli
05-23-2006, 04:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Any plane will be easy to track and spot from distance up to 3km.In the game planes disappear even on 300m distance,especially against forests. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe you should stop your BS. How do you explain the above mentioned article?

"I imagine there probably aren't too many people who can say they've seen the Thunderbirds' show from above. We circled over the field and watched until they finished. During the low-level routines it looked like they were right on the deck. Even these brightly-painted jets could be hard to see. A few times I would lose one and then pick it up again somewhere else."

http://www.f-16.net/varia_article13.html

And these were brighly painted jets on the deck... soooooo??????

slipBall
05-23-2006, 04:47 AM
When using red icons, I cannot see them if the background is the ground. I can see them when the background is the sky. Anybody know if the allies icon color can be changed. I might see allies icons if they were a bright yellow

RCAF_Irish_403
05-23-2006, 05:34 AM
I have 20/20 vision , but my hearing is @#$! due to playing in groups....i started wearing earplugs in 2001....i'm pretty good at reading lips! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

rnzoli
05-23-2006, 06:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by slipBall:
When using red icons, I cannot see them if the background is the ground. I can see them when the background is the sky. Anybody know if the allies icon color can be changed. I might see allies icons if they were a bright yellow </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.airwarfare.com/sturmovik_101/faq_index.htm#022, How do I customise icons?

It seems that the icon will always take the color of the ARMY, to which the aircraft is associated to.

If you want the icon to be yellow, the host/server has to set the base, from which the allied airplanes start, to ARMY=yellow. May work well in single-player missions, but unlikely to be good for online play.

ForkTailedDevil
05-23-2006, 06:30 AM
Out of curiosity, when I was attempting to become a comercial pilot. I had to go through a physical and one the the tests was a color blindness test. If I would have failed the test I would not have passed the physicals. Is that the same for all pilot licenses? If you are color blind you can't be a pilot?

WWMaxGunz
05-23-2006, 07:34 AM
Considering the number of red and green lights on instrument panels, maybe... ?

Mzoli, jets down near the deck seen from far above get the same amount of blurring due to
intervening air laden with dust and water vapor as the ground itself. Things far below
and into thick air just have a washed look and do blend together. From 8k ft and higher
you lose a lot of detail down near sea level, at half that I can tell car colors easily.

I have no big problems with blending at distance. What I've always had trouble with is
approaching a plane I can clearly see and getting to final aim and it disappears totally.
500 meters away and just below, not 3km below and low to the ground. Big difference.

Only answer I have is limited icons. Only MP supports limited icons but you can set up MP
even offline and use 3rd party CG and missions so it's a workable if dirty solution.

I look forward to screens and comments from BoB and the new 3D system.

rnzoli
05-23-2006, 07:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ForkTailedDevil:
Out of curiosity, when I was attempting to become a comercial pilot. I had to go through a physical and one the the tests was a color blindness test. If I would have failed the test I would not have passed the physicals. Is that the same for all pilot licenses? If you are color blind you can't be a pilot? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Certain level of deficiency is tolerated (i.e., the location of the warning lights is just as important as their color), but you can also cause an accident because of this, see the details:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020801X01282&key=1

"On July 26, 2002, at 0537 eastern daylight time, a FedEx Boeing 727, N497FE, crashed during landing at Tallahassee, Florida. [...] The airplane crashed short of the runway, and was subsequently destroyed by fire. All three crewmembers were seriously injured.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

[...] Contributing to the accident was a combination of [...], and the first officer's color vision deficiency."

Manu-6S
05-23-2006, 07:44 AM
I have an eye disease (degenerative); I'm 27, one-eyed and in the future (10 years, I think) I'll be totally blind.

So I set the brightness of my monitor very dark, and I lose planes over dark colours (sea, forest).

Bye

rnzoli
05-23-2006, 08:50 AM
if that's true, it is really embarrassing how much we ***** and moan about visibility problems in game, without appreciating our ability to see in the first place

slipBall
05-23-2006, 08:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ForkTailedDevil:
Out of curiosity, when I was attempting to become a comercial pilot. I had to go through a physical and one the the tests was a color blindness test. If I would have failed the test I would not have passed the physicals. Is that the same for all pilot licenses? If you are color blind you can't be a pilot? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I passed the physical for vishion, but because of the color blindness, I was resricted to daylight only flights

Von_Rat
05-23-2006, 12:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Considering the number of red and green lights on instrument panels, maybe... ?

Mzoli, jets down near the deck seen from far above get the same amount of blurring due to
intervening air laden with dust and water vapor as the ground itself. Things far below
and into thick air just have a washed look and do blend together. From 8k ft and higher
you lose a lot of detail down near sea level, at half that I can tell car colors easily.

I have no big problems with blending at distance. What I've always had trouble with is
approaching a plane I can clearly see and getting to final aim and it disappears totally.
500 meters away and just below, not 3km below and low to the ground. Big difference.

Only answer I have is limited icons. Only MP supports limited icons but you can set up MP
even offline and use 3rd party CG and missions so it's a workable if dirty solution.

I look forward to screens and comments from BoB and the new 3D system. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes, this is my problem. somtimes i can pick up a dot from very far away. but once i get close to it, say 500m or so, it turns invisable.



some people say camo is why you cant see planes, but nobody is ever going to convince me that camo causes a plane to turn invisable when im staring right at it at 500m, especially when i could easily spot it at 3000m against same background.

the camo arguement is just so much BS.

Stigler_9_JG52
05-23-2006, 01:58 PM
If you read up on the subject, you know that camo on aircraft was and is much more effective for hiding the object when it's on the ground.

Motion against a backdrop of terrain is enough to give it away to anything more than a casual observer. Our eyes are great at this, and the sim should assume we are all "combat trained pilots with better than ideal vision"; otherwise we'd have washed out long before we got put on fighters.

To answer rnzoli's questions:

Yes you do have the option of pulling out when you lose sight, but often the disappearing act occurs when you're more than just a little committed, and you know that a pull up will leave you with much less than the advantage you previously enjoyed...which makes it doubly frustrating having taken the time to get that alt in the first place.

AND, compounding matters, it often happens that you can't even get any decent idea of what's going on "down there" without dropping your altitude and THEN seeing 5 or more bogies you should have seen from 2km higher...one of the big advantages of having a "perch" is good Situational Awareness and threat analysis long before you dive in. The IL-2 visual system robs you of that ability (unless you use icons).

Whether the victim can see you when you're diving in is really moot to this discussion. If he's looking over his shoulder, and you're not in the sun, chances are decent he'll see you. But, under no cirmcumstances should he disappear from the view of the guy who's got all the advantages in this situation.

LStarosta
05-23-2006, 02:05 PM
I just got my FAA First Class Medical revoked because apparently I have bifovial fixation problems.

rnzoli
05-24-2006, 03:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stigler_9_JG52:
but often the disappearing act occurs when you're more than just a little committed, and you know that a pull up will leave you with much less than the advantage you previously enjoyed </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I also see the problem when the dot becomes a LOD, I can lose tracking momentarily. This I consider abnormal, too. These are critical moments, and it can ruin the firing pass big time. But in any case: maintaining an advatage has to be our top committment. With that, we can stay out of guns range and come around another time, again and again. Also, a hard pull-out is not what I meant, sometimes a shallow dive for separation and after that a shallow climb back to altitude is what I try to do. I have a QMB practice missing flying an FW-190A-4 against 4 average I-16s on Crimea map (above green forests, too), starting same level (5km), so the only way to win this is constantly working on increasing the E-advantage, rather than losing it just to shoot one, and then get shot down by another one. The mission is painfully training me on how to shoot them without giving up any of my advantage (else I am doomed for certain). For the guys who can do this, it's a life insurace, the rest depends on their shooting skills and patience.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stigler_9_JG52:
AND, compounding matters, it often happens that you can't even get any decent idea of what's going on "down there" without dropping your altitude and THEN seeing 5 or more bogies you should have seen from 2km higher... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Interesting that I have relatively few problems seeing the dots moving below, but there is one caveat I had to learn from my own smoking craters: with cockpit on, a large part of the below terrain is covered by my own aircraft. It is so easy to miss someone, because the nose, or the wings cover them just when I scan the area. This is why the idea of using the E advantage to separate and climb back to safety is so bloody important (at least with cockpit on).
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stigler_9_JG52:
one of the big advantages of having a "perch" is good Situational Awareness and threat analysis long before you dive in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe that SA is not just about what you see, but also more importantly, what you don't see (but know, or even "feel"). Whatever threat analysis I made BEFORE the dive, may become outdated with the appearance of additional enemy aircraft in my sector (typical in DF servers), not just on low altitude, but even on my starting altitude or higher. So giving up my E advantage to shoot someone down based on my original threat analysis is a dangerous committment by definition, regardless of the visual aspects. You seem to expect too much from this "perch", like a complete intelligence report to know exactly what's going on down there. IRL the occasional friendly shootings and unexpected shot-downs by enemy testify that real-life pilots didn't enjoy such good situational awareness, which you expect from IL2 to give you.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stigler_9_JG52:
Whether the victim can see you when you're diving in is really moot to this discussion. If he's looking over his shoulder, and you're not in the sun, chances are decent he'll see you. But, under no cirmcumstances should he disappear from the view of the guy who's got all the advantages in this situation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe the cardinal issue is that there is no such thing as "all the advantages". Altitude is a significant advantage, but not a single wildcard, that should win all engagements for you, or ensure perfect SA all times. Similarly, there isn't in the game an absolute advantage on the side for the low-flying aircraft either. There are advantages in being low as well, e.g., the high closing speed is an advantage on the side of my enemy, because it limits his exposure to my guns. The Sun is fully relevant to the discussion, because it provides another important advantage for the guys high up, the same "invisibility", as the ground background for the guys below. I am surprised why you discount this historically proven advantage of attacking from above, especially that the enemy not seeing you isn't making defensive manouvers, hence easier to track visually in the game.


Summary: the main disagreement between us is that you think altitute in the game should give you an unbeatable advantage, while I don't.

Maybe it would be useful to collect all factors that affect the perception of visibility in game:
- monitor size, resolution, distance from the observer
- graphics card detail and FPS capacity limits
- game rendering anomalies with dots and distant LODs
- lack of 6DOF combined with a few botched rear-views
- external visual aids, such as TrackIR, or Freelook
- user-related anomalies, eyesight problems, poor scanning and tail-checking habits
- "normal" visual obstackles, aircraft nose and wings, Sun light, camoflage, partial darkness (dusk/dawn flights).


The idea with the above list is to show how many things can influce the way we perceive the visual experience seen in IL2. Blaming everything on the IL2 developers is not just unfair, but also truly counterproductive for 2 reasons:
- scapegoating poor software prevents people checking the other items in the list, and maybe gaining improvements there as well
- the massive denouncing of the entire software pre-empts pin-pointing the exact areas, where software improvements would be needed.

Rammjaeger
05-24-2006, 04:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by slipBall:
I know some have problems keeping enemy aircraft in view. Tracking planes in this sim with normal color perception must help a little. I envey all of you who can see all colors. I have a real problem loosing enemy visual contacts, and I think its because I'm red/green color blind. Over forest, water, you name it, very aggravating http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the solution is pretty easy, fly with "no icons" turned off, and every time you see a suspicious plane, check its type by changing the icon type. That should work.

carguy_
05-24-2006, 04:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
The idea with the above list is to show how many things can influce the way we perceive the visual experience seen in IL2. Blaming everything on the IL2 developers is not just unfair, but also truly counterproductive for 2 reasons:
- scapegoating poor software prevents people checking the other items in the list, and maybe gaining improvements there as well
- the massive denouncing of the entire software pre-empts pin-pointing the exact areas, where software improvements would be needed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh blaming the developers is legitimate.Dot problems were solved in 3.01 patch.There were no longer any problems with spotting airplanes from 3km.The solution is there and was put into life but resigned from within a week.
Also IIRC wing disappearing LODs are not driver problem.


I want to repeat to all you smartasses that real pilots flew in different weather conditions - rain,snow,very cloudy,early morning,dusk.We don`t have that in 90% of all games played.We as players fly in perfect or close to perfect flying conditions.

slipBall
05-24-2006, 05:20 AM
Rammjaeger (quote)
Well, the solution is pretty easy, fly with "no icons" turned off, and every time you see a suspicious plane, check its type by changing the icon type. That should work

Thanks for the advice, not sure what you mean though. With icons on, I can't see the default red color of the icons, when they are below me. So icons on/off makes no difference for me because of the red/green color blindness

rnzoli
05-24-2006, 05:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
The solution is there and was put into life but resigned from within a week. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Let me pick out this statement and ask you an obvious question: WHY? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

I think the developers aren't crazy and didn't want to remove a useful feature in order to torture their own fans.

The regular accusation of national bias does not hold either, since dots are just dots for all types of aircraft.

So maybe large dots made unrealistically easy to spot the aircraft from 3km, that's why the solution - a bad solution - was revoked.

Or...?

carguy_
05-24-2006, 05:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
Let me pick out this statement and ask you an obvious question: WHY? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First off ask me why was this ever tried?Because people complained from the start.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
I think the developers aren't crazy and didn't want to remove a useful feature in order to torture their own fans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Developers made a rather primitive but effective solution.This feature was in fact useful as the mp_dotrange line in con.ini allows to modify the dot size depending on range.So basically it`s good for everybody.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
The regular accusation of national bias does not hold either, since dots are just dots for all types of aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

National bias - no,game bias - yes and understandable since tha game is called IL2 Sturmovik and made for VVS players from the start to the end.Everything added since FB did not modify the original ideas.
And no - Bf109 dots are easily visible anytime and thus they actually are IDable by the visibility of dot alone.Also La7/P40/P47 dots are easily visibe.Dots do differ from each other.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
So maybe large dots made unrealistically easy to spot the aircraft from 3km, that's why the solution - a bad solution - was revoked. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I have to repeat again we fly in perfect or close to perfect flight conditions.Nothing unrealistic in that.Planes are visible up to 5km in those conditions(big airliners even up to 7km range).Also as Stigler said,mevement has a vital part in saying that even camoed plane is relatively easily visible and trackable.

Ofcourse you think that a revoked solution was wrong.That is your mistake.You see,some features have been added or removed from Oleg asking in polls.This 3.01 solution was asked also - poll was about if we want to

OPTION 1 - bring back old dots (IL2 Sturmovik v1.20)

OPTION 2 - leave the new 3.01 dots

OPTION 3 - leave the FB dots


IIRC the result was that current FB dots were voted the worst(about 20%voted),3.01 dots were voted as good solution(39%) and old IL dots voted the best(41%).

So you see the final answer from this community on current dots we have was to change them whether this involves 3.01 or old IL2 dots.

Final answer from Oleg on this issue was that he was gonna leave current dots because vast majority of Russian community voted for them.
Now you might draw some conclusions here.Maybe all Russian customers are running @ 800x600 resolution or maybe being able to hide in the terrain suits them.

My opinion is that 3.01 dots were managable.Everyone could modify to their hearts content - this is not possible with current dots.
We let that solution slip away for some reason.

rnzoli
05-24-2006, 06:45 AM
carguy, thanks for the re-cap, this has happened before I joined this community, so I never heard the full story before.

I think I made a test some time ago with FMB and a He-111 was visible at 7 km height as a very small dot (with condense trails, too), so I think your analogy with big airliners up to 8 km height is fulfilled by the IL2 rendering, no?

I am really interested to see whether the dots are possible to ID, got any screenshots for comparison, or should I just try this in QMB?

And the final question: if this is a sim created for a deliberate and unbeatable bias towards VVS aircraft, what the heck all the others (LW, RAF, USAF virtual pilots) are doing on HL and in online wars? Are they (we) all suicidal, or just don't know/care the Russian conspiracy?

general_kalle
05-24-2006, 07:34 AM
i feel sorry for u guys http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

Rammjaeger
05-24-2006, 12:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by slipBall:
Rammjaeger (quote)
Well, the solution is pretty easy, fly with "no icons" turned off, and every time you see a suspicious plane, check its type by changing the icon type. That should work

Thanks for the advice, not sure what you mean though. With icons on, I can't see the default red color of the icons, when they are below me. So icons on/off makes no difference for me because of the red/green color blindness </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It does. Upon sighting a plane, press "toggle icon types". The icon will display the type of the aircraft, and that will indicate whether it is friend or foe.

faustnik
05-24-2006, 12:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
Also as Stigler said,mevement has a vital part in saying that even camoed plane is relatively easily visible and trackable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually have no problems with "dots" on my system. I can see them at a reasonable range and track them. My issue is the first LODs. Some a/c, like Spitfires, completely vanish at first LOD range. I could swear that the first LOD models of these a/c are transparent, not 100% opaque. It is very frustrating. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Von_Rat
05-24-2006, 12:30 PM
its not a russian conspiracy.

carguy had it right when he said this game was designed for the il2.

imo this game was never intended to cater to any but the low alt tnb crowd in the beginning.

now that it has grown past that you have resistance from players who like low alt tnb and dont want to be put at a disadvantage for it.

i don't think alt advantage should be some unbeatable advantage or give you perfect SA.

I JUST WANT THE DAM DOTS TO STOP DISAPPEARING WHEN I GET CLOSE TO THEM.

this is almost a game breaker for me, because many lw and us planes depend on alt advantage to bnz. and despite what some here say, its next to impossiable to keep your advantage on a enemy plane, especially spits, 09s, las, if everytime you close to set up a firing pass on it,, it disappears.

LEBillfish
05-24-2006, 12:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
I just got my FAA First Class Medical revoked because apparently I have bifovial fixation problems. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought you said it was a "Bovinial Fixation" problem before......So no more interest in cows ehh? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

WWMaxGunz
05-24-2006, 06:22 PM
Dots change to LOD's way beyond the disappearing planes range. LOD's begin at over 2km and
yes the smallest LOD's are or can be (resolution) smaller than the dots. At that range I
am not in final aim correction while zooming in. 500m and it's Romulan Cloak time, just
before trigger time. And Icons do not let me see the tilt of wings or nose to follow an
evasive move, what I could see plainly just a second before the LOD's totally blended.

It has nothing to do with Dots even if the distant LOD's are dot sized or smaller.

This whole issue is like hunting with dogs and trying to figure out which tree has the game.
50 hounds and you get 10 trees barked up.

LStarosta
05-24-2006, 08:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
I just got my FAA First Class Medical revoked because apparently I have bifovial fixation problems. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought you said it was a "Bovinial Fixation" problem before......So no more interest in cows ehh? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.m-w.com/mw/art/cow.gif

There's 38 ways to love a cow... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

rnzoli
05-25-2006, 01:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
I actually have no problems with "dots" on my system. I can see them at a reasonable range and track them. My issue is the first LODs. Some a/c, like Spitfires, completely vanish at first LOD range. I could swear that the first LOD models of these a/c are transparent, not 100% opaque. It is very frustrating. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto here, with the most pronouced effect is with head-ons, high closure speed and low cross-section for the coming aircraft.

Last night I did a short test and the problem is that the discernible dot becomes a "pixel vapor" at the most distant LOD. This "pixel vapor" is changing its shape all the time, and due to this, blends into the background perfectly, better than the solid black/grey dot dot. No wonder we lose sight of the aircraft http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

This pic shows 4 I-16s coming towards the camera, with the sky as a background. somewhere between 700-1200 m, 5 km altitude, NVidia 6600 GT, 1280x1024, game paused for screenshot, external view.

http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/I16-lod-1.bmp

This pic shows the magnified LODs from the same screenshot.

http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/I16-lod-2a.bmp
http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/I16-lod-2b.bmp
http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/I16-lod-2c.bmp
http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/I16-lod-2d.bmp

Only one of them looks like a "plane", the others are just an amorf group of pixels. The worst thing is that they constanly change shape depending on the view angle, that's why I gave the term "pixel vapor" because instead of seeing a solid aircraft=looking pixel group coming your way, you see a constantly changing cloud of loose pixels coming your way.

Now if you put this in front of the ground background, the eye cannot track this, due to no firm shape to "lock on". You can re-ackquire the target when it changes to closers LODs, but usually , it's too late, sometimes I see coming tracers earlier, than the plane itself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

In summary, the first LOD is useless, if it behaves this way.

It would be experiment and see, if there is a workaround to this, e.g., how does FOV, resolution setting, anti-aliasing, detail level affect this "pixel vapor" LOD.

My quess is that with higher resolutions, the situation becomes better for the distant LOD, as it can be rendered from more pixels and retain a fairly solid shape.

Or maybe reducing the detail setting in IL2 will tell the game not to be so ambitious, and allow the dot to stay for longer time, and start rendering the LODs only when they provide a reasonably steady shape.

A help with these testing would be appreciated.