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Jetbuff
03-09-2006, 03:40 PM
I see only the E-3 listed in the tentative list of flyables for BoB. I would like to encourage that the E-4 be considered as well. Why?

a) It was perhaps the more prevalent version during the BOB.

b) Differences from the E-3 are minimal and primarily internal: a little extra armour for pilot/fuel tank (and a small performance penalty for the extra weight perhaps?) and Minengeschoss-capable MG-FF. (MG-FF/M)

c) It would give LW pilots a choice in single-engined fighters.

Cheers...

Jetbuff
03-09-2006, 03:40 PM
I see only the E-3 listed in the tentative list of flyables for BoB. I would like to encourage that the E-4 be considered as well. Why?

a) It was perhaps the more prevalent version during the BOB.

b) Differences from the E-3 are minimal and primarily internal: a little extra armour for pilot/fuel tank (and a small performance penalty for the extra weight perhaps?) and Minengeschoss-capable MG-FF. (MG-FF/M)

c) It would give LW pilots a choice in single-engined fighters.

Cheers...

VW-IceFire
03-09-2006, 05:41 PM
I was making this argument in another forum.

If we are to look at the possible variants within that given time frame the Spitfire Mark II and the Bf109E-4 are easy changes. Mostly the changes are internal...they add to the variety but represent little to no effort (the Mark II having a slightly higher HP engine and being built at Castle Bromwich with all the refinements of the later Mark I's)). The 109E-4 mostly differing in the MG-FF/M cannons. Did the E-4 get a boost in performance at all over the E-3?

ImpStarDuece
03-09-2006, 05:48 PM
Versions of 109 flown during the BoB:

Bf 109E-1 used by some JGs in small numbers
Bf 109E-1/B used by some JGs in small numbers
Bf 109E-3 main BoB variant
Bf 109E-4 higher rated DB 601A-1A
Bf 109E-4/B fighter bomber, 4 50kg or 1 250 kg bomb, operations began late September.
Bf 109E-4/N higher compression DB 601N, same top speed (575-580 kph), but generally 15-20 kph faster above and below full throttle height
Bf 109E-5 Reconnisance version of E-3
Bf 109E-7 Similar to E-4/N but with drop tanks and provisions for 1 250 kg bomb.

JG53Frankyboy
03-09-2006, 05:52 PM
E-3 and E-4 had the same engine.
THE difference would realy be the higher hitting power of its 20mm mineshells.
so nobody would fly a E3 if the E4 would be available http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

and i doubt there are differnces in armour protection betwenn E3 and E4 of the same operation time......

as same as the late Spitfire Mk.I have the same protection as the Mk.II ?!?!

but, wasnt it clear that with BoB the plane choice will be reduced , compared to the IL2 game series ??

JG53Frankyboy
03-09-2006, 06:27 PM
and btw, some people are saying the E3 was the main version, some the E4 was the main version from July1940 to November 1940.
i cant tell..................

LEXX_Luthor
03-09-2006, 09:57 PM
Doesn't matter, 109E-4 will be the new uber plane.

What a change. I think its GREAT!!!

Badsight.
03-09-2006, 10:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
b) Differences from the E-3 are minimal . . . . . . . . . and Minengeschoss-capable MG-FF. (MG-FF/M) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Hah!

Emil ought to be completely out-flowen by Spits

& the E3 has only pea-shooters

crazyivan1970
03-10-2006, 12:49 AM
They keyword is "I see" Jetbuff http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif There was no official statement about BOB`s planeset or anything else. Just some speculations in the some gaming magazine. Few guesses, maybe even close to what we get. But regardless.... just guesses http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

When time comes, the OFFICIAL list will be anounced. Fair enough? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jetbuff
03-10-2006, 01:34 AM
Point taken Ivan. I wasn't trying to stir up trouble or anything and half-expected that I had jumped the gun. Then again, I would've kicked myself if I hadn't at least mentioned it and it then turns out we only get the E-3. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Frankyboy, not necessarily true. If the E-4 is modelled with the extra armour for pilot/fuel tank, it may actually be a slightly worse performer than the E-3. So you would have to consider the trade-off: better performance or better armament? Spices up the LW fighter choice some.

JG53Frankyboy
03-10-2006, 04:21 AM
well, last night i took a look in Priens "JG53 History , Vol .1" . it has lot of photos of 1940 its Emils. the follow i can say:
its hard to find "THE" Bf109E in that time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

is saw pictures of:
- old Cockpit canopies with and without headarmour (in BoB service Time!)
- new Canopies with and without headarmour
- lot of Emils had Rearview mirrors, sure not all
- there were also still not few E-1 (4xMG17) in service - also in the late JABO time as Bf109E-1/B
-some have the propeller pitch control on the instrument panel, some already on the throttle

so, to decide wich Emil should be the "Maddox BoB Emil" is not easy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

but as Ivan said, its very early - still much time till 2007 (BoB release)
at least it is important that there will be -/B variants http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif from whatever version.

JG52Karaya-X
03-10-2006, 01:12 PM
I'd like to see the:

Bf109E1
Bf109E3 (these two mainly for use in some BoF and earlier scenarios)
Bf109E4
Bf109E4/N (for late BoB and early Africa maps)

Spitfire Mk.I
Spitfire Mk.II

not sure if any version other than the MarkI participated for the Hurricanes though...

JG52Uther
03-10-2006, 01:26 PM
I could be wrong,but did'nt the 109F1 appear towards the end of the BoB,around November?

JG52Karaya-X
03-10-2006, 01:55 PM
Who's talking about the F old man http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

horseback
03-10-2006, 03:45 PM
AFAIK, the E-1/E-3 and E-4 differed quite a bit in canopy/windshield framing, and later E-4s received a fuller head/upper body armor treatment. Visually, the external and cockpit views will differ a good bit, since the E-4 had much heavier framing.

I'm also of the impression that a great many E-1s and 3s were reequipped with the E-4 canopy after receiving combat damage or being sent to repair depots. Since the armament was unchanged, an E-3's ability to fire the minengeschoss rounds would be determined by the chronological point in the Battle, not model number.

In reference to the Hurricane, I believe that the Mk IIa was operational in forward deployed Squadrons by no later than mid-September 1940, and the IIc (cannon armed version) was out by early '41.

cheers

horseback

Badsight.
03-10-2006, 05:04 PM
EDIT : nm , look below

JG53Frankyboy
03-10-2006, 06:32 PM
Stab/JG51 received its first Bf109F-0 in october 1940 . M├┬Âlders flew his first combat mission in such a plane at 9.October.

end of October I./JG51 received thier first Bf109F-1 - but conversion was canceled because of production proplems of these early Friedrichs.

the first wing than to convert was JG53 , receiving F1&2 mid februrary 1941. It did its conversation in Germany. JG53 came back to the channel with its new Bf109F mid March 1941.

Oleg should realy leave the Bf109F out of the BoB release version - my personal opinion

JG52Karaya-X
03-11-2006, 01:23 AM
I agree, the Fs should not be in the BoB scenario - but I'd of course want the Fs for a later Africa/Russia addon

Maybe an F1, F2 and of course F4... together with /trop versions for the sandy deserts http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

pdog1
03-11-2006, 04:34 AM
Emil Akbar.
The E-4 in FB kicks major infidel ***.
The E-4 in BoB will do the same.
EMIL AKBAR.

pdog1
03-11-2006, 06:34 AM
Oh and a brief note about the E-3.... the E-3 did carry MG-FF so its no big deal.

heywooood
03-11-2006, 08:36 AM
a friend of a buddy tells me Germany had Me262's in 1940 but Goering figured to save them for later ...Luftwaffe won the war be sure.

BoB will bring a fresh batch of porkwhine and ubermoan to a whole new zoo and its already started.

Online 'even-ness' being bad for 'realistic' flight sims has been proven - lets try getting it right and ignoring 'gamers' for a change.

With a lack of Russian 'side' in BoB, will western simmers assume blue planes are 'overmodeled' or will easterners think Oleg is a softie for 'red'

Winning seems to be everything in flight sim combat online arena venue...

Vipez-
03-11-2006, 08:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pdog1:
Emil Akbar.
The E-4 in FB kicks major infidel ***.
The E-4 in BoB will do the same.
EMIL AKBAR. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You remembered! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

pdog1
03-11-2006, 09:06 AM
How can i forget mate? Although the days of VEF are long gone the hails of EMIL AKBAR!!!! can still be heard in spits vs 109s dogfight server everytime i waste another infidel with the glorious Emil. Of course this is only on russian front maps. When the snow turns to sand i trade in my precious Emil for Macchi C200.
But Saetta Akbar doesn't have the same ring. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

pdog1
03-11-2006, 09:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heywooood:
a friend of a buddy tells me Germany had Me262's in 1940 but Goering figured to save them for later ...Luftwaffe won the war be sure.

BoB will bring a fresh batch of porkwhine and ubermoan to a whole new zoo and its already started.

Online 'even-ness' being bad for 'realistic' flight sims has been proven - lets try getting it right and ignoring 'gamers' for a change.

With a lack of Russian 'side' in BoB, will western simmers assume blue planes are 'overmodeled' or will easterners think Oleg is a softie for 'red'

Winning seems to be everything in flight sim combat online arena venue... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only whining that will be done is the lamentation of red pilots when they a lone Emil pilot bearing down on them and wiping out whole squadrons of RAF planes in less than 5 minutes.
The time of the glorious Emil will come and it will be judgement day for the reds.
Emil Akbar.

heywooood
03-11-2006, 12:43 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gifwe shall see...oh yes...we...shall...see

hop2002
03-11-2006, 01:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and btw, some people are saying the E3 was the main version, some the E4 was the main version from July1940 to November 1940.
i cant tell </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hooton, Eagle in Flames, gives the following as the percentages of 109 types lost during the battle:
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
July Aug Sep Oct
E1 44 40 38 36
E3 30 8 1 2
E4 20 52 61 62
</pre>

Badsight.
03-11-2006, 01:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EMIL_AKBAR :
I AM NOT SHOUTING , THIS IS JUST MY BOOMING GODLY VOICE </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Emil Akbar was the man .)

Chuck_Older
03-11-2006, 02:07 PM
I will be very pleased indeed if we are forced to fly (and choose) these aircraft with an eye towards common sense

Every Britpilot will want a Spit...until they find out that the Hurri re-arms, refuels, and replensishes O2 (Oh how I hope Oxygen supply is modelled) much faster than a Spitty

And I hope somehow that Gerrypilots will have to consider how they will get home with no fuel, and that their orders are to stay with the bombers, or that their free hunt can't go on for a hour over England unless they like swimming in icewater or feel like drinking the Channel

"Airquake" has been used as a term for this sim in the past...think about it...when we fly against each other online, unless there are some pretty clever folks who set up things correctly, we are flying in a very static, arena-like situation- considerations like running out of Oxygen are removed, and then we find that "These planes don't stack up historically"

Well, maybe we don't fly them historically enough to know the difference! I hope that SoW:BoB will address that (Hey Oleg! My 02 regulator is porked!)

VW-IceFire
03-11-2006, 04:14 PM
150 octane arguments will change to "Welcome home sir! Undercarriage lever a bit sticky? I wouldn't tell the CO that if I were you..."

pdog1
03-11-2006, 04:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
150 octane arguments will change to "Welcome home sir! Undercarriage lever a bit sticky? I wouldn't tell the CO that if I were you..." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From spring chicken to sh1te hawk in one easy lesson.......
takatakatakatakatakataka http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kurfurst__
03-14-2006, 04:40 AM
The dominant type of Emil during the BoB was the E-4, most seem to be converted from E-3s as the only major difference was the Mine-shell firing MG-FF/M replacing the MG FF of the E-3s. Otherwise, they were pretty much the same armor wise (head armor was retrofitted). The E-1 was still numerous with it's 4x7.92mm armament (rather light, but there's plenty of ammo and many RAF planes still lacked armor at that time, at least in May 1940 there was only a handful, not sure when they were completely retrofitted with armor), I guess the conversion of the wing to cannon from MG was more complicated.

And of course, as Frankyboy suggested there was a bit of chaos on both sides, all odd variatons of equipment existed, some Emils had auto-pitch, others still manual, RAF fighters had two-pitch props until mid-August, radio equipment varied, armor was not always retrofitted and so on. It's rather difficult to pick a 'representative' example for either sides since there were so many improvements made in so little time...


Bf 109E type strenght in the West, 31 August 1940 (JG 77 excluded which did not took part in the battle)

E-1 : 375 (4x 7.92)
E-3 : 125 (MG FF)
E-4 : 335 (MG FF/M)
E-7 : 32 (MG FF/M)
Total : 871 (740 operational, 131 unservicable)

In addition, there were the 601N powered E-4/N, these appeared already in July, I think JG 26 had them (one Gruppe in July). These were the 'hottest' Emils in the Battle, especially their altitude performance was good.

JG53Frankyboy
03-14-2006, 06:21 AM
interesting numbers !
from where do you get them ?

ans yes, it was not easy to change the wingmounted MG17 to MG-FF armament - i guess they needed totaly new wings at all !
and so far i know these E-1 were flwon often by wingmen , that had the main duty to cover their leader , and the leader got the canon armed Emil to shoot the enemy.

Lodovik
03-14-2006, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
I will be very pleased indeed if we are forced to fly (and choose) these aircraft with an eye towards common sense </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hear! Hear! Just the kind of considerations I for one want to see in SOW:BOB. I hope it'll be _hard_ so I can feel some of the bewildering seat-of-pants terror of trying to survive amidst a huge strategic aerial battle. Less of the Illustrated Combat Library stuff and more gritty realism. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif